Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[phi1ny3]

Why is Marth v. Lucario -1 for us?

We weren't given a final rebuttal why Marth had an advantage over us. I thought G&W vs. us was even as well...

Do you guys give the benefit of the doubt to higher tier characters?

G&W was given +1 for them by judge decision.

 

[DKwill]

Hey guys, just want to point out that while Lain is amazing and did **** me in Pools round 2 at Pound 5, me getting 3 stocked was due to making some pretty terrible decisions lol. I charged f-smash and whiffed (got grabbed for it) and then tried to gimp Nana while Popo was too close to her (wasted my double jump and got up-b edge hog invincibilty glitched at like 0% lol)

That game in itself does not attest to my matchup experience. And tbh I hate playing IC players in friendlies- no offense. If I were playing you in tournament, I wouldn't be trying anything fancy at all, I'd be camping platforms and playing really dumb =( It's also really hard to focus as much on not getting grabbed at 3:00am in the morning xD But GG's Lux.

I'd listen to Ripple when it comes to ICs vs DK stuff since he has been able to play Lain for much longer than Vinnie has been around as a solid ICs player. I do however think it should be at about a -2 in IC's favor simply because of DK's large hurtbox which allows him to be caught at low percents by ice block/squall into grab fairly easily =x

Edit: I'd also like to point out that seeing as there was no signal in the venue, I couldn't text Ripple for advice. =/ And yes, he was going to be my foremost source of IC's vs DK advice.

 

[Judo777]

Hey guys if anyone think the BBR isn't doing anything useful please be my guest and come up with something game breaking pls.

Also if it hasn't been pointed out, the matchups aren't comparable. Just because 2 MU's are in the same category doesn't mean they are equal. Just means they are closer to one category than another. If its large disadvantage it will be in the same category as a larger disadvantage that still isn't unwinnable.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

G&W was given +1 for them by judge decision.

Were we given any other reasoning other than judge's decision?

 

[Alphicans]

It probably has to do with the fact that the GaW mu average exceeded +1.

That's not to say the GaW panel had more say than the lucario board, but I am GUESSING that it averaged to be in our favor by a slight margin. We agreed to no .5 match-ups, so this could be reasoning for us being +1 on you.

 

[Steam]

wait there were people who said GW +2 Lucario? I can't even wrap my mind around that. I could have like two years ago... but yeah.

But I don't think they did that, I believe they judged based on who provided the better argument. IDK

 

[Alphicans]

Hmm I looked at the numbers, and yeah it doesn't seem like that's what they did. We did have one +2 vote, but 2 0 votes, and then like 2 +1 votes. There really wasn't much argument from both sides. However, 0 just doesn't seem realistic to me anyways :/.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

None of the Lucario's said -1 on G&W, one or two dropped a +1 for Lucario on him but that's it.

We contacted Vinnie into the skype chat to talk about the match-up in which I did the write up for the BBR based on what people discussed.

I'll talk on the Luc thing as a whole later.

 

[Alphicans]

Really... People said lucario wins this match-up?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Really... People said lucario wins this match-up?

I didn't. And I won't drop names of who did.

I will say that calling it G&W's favor by a +2 or even a +1 is questionable, imo.

Should be a 0.

 

[Alphicans]

+2 is a little bit idealistc, but +1 is probably the right number. I'd like to have a real thread dedicated to discussing this match-up, because the way we did it for this chart left a lot to be desired.

 

[phi1ny3]

Does the D3 v. Snake MU take into consideration the infinite?

No, on the account that to do it is ridiculously impossible (really hard even with frame advance).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

+2 is a little bit idealistc, but +1 is probably the right number. I'd like to have a real thread dedicated to discussing this match-up, because the way we did it for this chart left a lot to be desired.

Lucario's asked G&W mains like Vinnie to help with discussion when we had disagreements, which is why we reached a 0.

0 is the right number based on the info given to us and the discussions we had. I didn't see a reason for it to be a +1, even with stage lists added into the mix.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

should have consulted the character boards a little more though for some of these match ups. pit vs snake should be a 0 and mayb bump up g&w to -2. overall tho at least for the pit match ups it looks very solid.

good work on this bbr! very impressed that you guys put the work into doing this for the community

 

[Alphicans]

Going to the character boards is a really big hit and miss. I think the way we did it was a good start, but we need to find a way to really determine what each number means.

There are complaints like "mario vs gaw is -3, but vs mk is only -2... wtf!?!" That probably has to do a lot with how each character board sees a -3 and -2 match-up. This is the major issue with everything :/.

 

[Judo777]

To answer previous questions Sheik Lucas is +3 for 1 main reason. Sheik and Lucas actually go pretty close in terms of the overall combat of the match. Sheik has a lot of tools to deal with lucas' zoning and ways of moving around lucas' aerials but overall the ordinaryu aspect of the MU would only probably be slightly in sheiks favor. The main issue however is GR infinites. You think Marth's GR infinite on lucas is bad? Sheik can do it better, faster, and almost as effortlessly. Sheik has so many option out of GR it is quite stupid and sheik literally should be 0-deathing lucas out of grabs pretty much everytime. GR >ftilt >regrab is guaranteed til like 50 ish, GR > sheiks entire moveset just about is guaranteed, If lucas happens to air release sheik can run and regrab him on reaction (no boost grab required) and GR > DACUS tippers on lucas at all percents. Its pretty terrible.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alright personal talk.

I'm happy with how Lucario's match-up spread turned out, I have personal quirks or disagreements like G&W, Marth, and Fox, but that is personal so if it turned out like this it wouldn't bother me that much either way.

I'm not going to speak for other boards on their characters, excpet Link Peach is a -3 when Sheik is a -1 is lolwrong, I'm happy how the Lucario's boards got through their match-ups, skype chats are fun, for ones opposing characters disagreed on and got guests to show up if we needed outside help or wants to make sure we got a good understanding of the match-ups.

If anyone has questions regarding Lucario's MUs I can answer them so direct them at me if have a problem with something on his list.

 

[Kewkky]

I hope the BBR MU Chart helps revive character-specific backrooms so that it's easier for us to contact the non-BBR top players of each character. The Lucario community's BR being active during the making of the MU Chart is something I want to see on every other board, if only for the purpose of helping form the perfect MU Chart everyone wants to see. MU threads and exports don't work for discussing MUs, you guys should only do them to help newcomers understand what to do in each MU along with some tips, but the real discussions should take place in the character-specific back rooms where only the good players are allowed into.

Maybe you guys can do this to help the next chart be closer to perfect? Now that the chart has versions, it's only natural to expect regular updates in the same manner as the tier list, so you guys can try to get ahead of the game and discuss MUs behind the scenes with the best players you can add into the BR's. Me personally, if I was in the BBR doing the Kirby MUs and I knew the good Kirbies had been spending loads of time getting their perfect MU spread, I would definitely count it as an important resource and use it.


Just a small suggestion to get the ball rolling for the next installment! Remember guys, this is a first for SWF (not even Melee has an Official MBR MU Chart), so expecting perfection on our first MU Chart release is expecting far too much. You should be expecting a better view of how MUs TRULY are by V3 (MAYBE V2, MAYBE).

 

[WindMajor]

I hope the BBR MU Chart helps revive character-specific backrooms so that it's easier for us to contact the non-BBR top players of each character. The Lucario community's BR being active during the making of the MU Chart is something I want to see on every other board, if only for the purpose of helping form the perfect MU Chart everyone wants to see. MU threads and exports don't work for discussing MUs, you guys should only do them to help newcomers understand what to do in each MU along with some tips, but the real discussions should take place in the character-specific back rooms where only the good players are allowed into.

Maybe you guys can do this to help the next chart be closer to perfect? Now that the chart has versions, it's only natural to expect regular updates in the same manner as the tier list, so you guys can try to get ahead of the game and discuss MUs behind the scenes with the best players you can add into the BR's. Me personally, if I was in the BBR doing the Kirby MUs and I knew the good Kirbies had been spending loads of time getting their perfect MU spread, I would definitely count it as an important resource and use it.


Just a small suggestion to get the ball rolling for the next installment! Remember guys, this is a first for SWF (not even Melee has an Official MBR MU Chart), so expecting perfection on our first MU Chart release is expecting far too much. You should be expecting a better view of how MUs TRULY are by V3 (MAYBE V2, MAYBE).

This times a million and a half.

Hopefully this project is enough to give a push to each of the character specific communities to do work on MU discussions, so that when next time swings in, it'll be better.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just still waiting to hear why Wolf vs. ROB is -1. I could see it being even, but I don't see where ROB's advantage is here.

Also, I think D3 and Wario should be switched, but that's probably the way it is due to Choice's preference.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

oh i got ya. yeah i can see why not using the boards (where honestly only half of the people on a board actually know what they are saying) as a good choice.

like i said tho thx and gj! still most pit's agree that snake is even at 0 and is in no way a disadvantaged match up.

k. no more jons from this buzzed typer

 

[HeroMystic]

There are complaints like "mario vs gaw is -3, but vs mk is only -2... wtf!?!" That probably has to do a lot with how each character board sees a -3 and -2 match-up. This is the major issue with everything :/.

Actually it's because Metaknight is Mario's hardest match-up, so it's ridiculous that MK is a -2 in the first place. Everything else can be handled with discussion, but MK as -2 is just absolutely wrong.

 

[Alphicans]

I was just using that as an example. Either way that's your opinion. Mario vs GaW doesn't seem very winnable either tbh.

Don't miss my main point in that post though.... It does explain a lot.

 

[HeroMystic]

I get your point completely. This is why the majority of Marios are asking for the reasonings behind this so we can evaluate, or be enlightened.

 

[DeLux]

That game in itself does not attest to my matchup experience. And tbh I hate playing IC players in friendlies- no offense. If I were playing you in tournament, I wouldn't be trying anything fancy at all, I'd be camping platforms and playing really dumb =( It's also really hard to focus as much on not getting grabbed at 3:00am in the morning xD But GG's Lux.

For the record Sir, it was closer to 4am if I remember correctly
And prior to Pound in the ICGD, YOU told me to friendly you

Did we play pre or post lain match btw?

 

[DKwill]

For the record Sir, it was closer to 4am if I remember correctly
And prior to Pound in the ICGD, YOU told me to friendly you

Did we play pre or post lain match btw?

Haha! Oh man that was you eh? Well, I friendly any and everyone, it's just a lot more stressful playing vs IC's in friendlies in general, especially at 4am =P

We played before I ended up playing Lain in pools round 2. I did MM one IC player during Pound 5, and we had a really close set. I believe it was DarkFlame.

 

[DeLux]

Oh. I hadn't heard of DarkFlame before Pound but he was pretty legit.

And in your defense, I was throwing out all the new gimmicks at you that most IC's haven't incorporated into their gameplay yet because I only discovered them recently. You may or may not have noticed because most of it is just subtle nuance of the character. Most non-IC players don't. Actually most IC players don't either.

But a few of the matchups that are on the chart as "bad" for ICs might be solved by the new metagame advancements that'll be coming in the next couple months.

 

[Browny]

Well BBR, if at first you dont succeed, try and try again

Educate yourselves on the meaning of the word 'holistic'. Coming up with a number for each matchup treated completely separately and then simply sticking them together, without taking into account how the matchups are relative to everything else, AND THEN how the matchups are relative to other characters in the game, is just... terrible.

Im not saying its wrong, this is just a first iteration its not exactly possible to get everything right the first time until you see it as a whole. I find it quite hard (read; impossible) to beleive that the last 2 steps happened since you have outrageous spreads like marth overrated something MASSIVE when you put diddys MUs next to him and marios situation with MK and Marth/G&W etc.

So, I would suggest the next iteration of this list make an attempt to do these last two steps.

 

[Psychoace]

May I ask who the 4 or 5 or whatever amount of people were discussing the Falcon matchups?

 

[Matador]

I was just using that as an example. Either way that's your opinion. Mario vs GaW doesn't seem very winnable either tbh.

Don't miss my main point in that post though.... It does explain a lot.

Is there ever going to be an explanation for some of the more contested opinions on the chart?

I'd actually love to see some of the discussion that took place as the chart was formed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I could post the Lucario's discussions or writes ups that I did. Dunno if I am allowed to do that though,

 

[Yikarur]

Polt, It always seems that you can't decide on match-ups objectivly, all your reasoning is always "I beat X Y times".
You beat Lain and Hylian.
Does this make the match-up +1? no.
You somehow play close with Xyro (I don't know about this) does this make the match-up even? no.

I hope the IC Players will step their MUs up because Yoshi:ICs should be considered even because they cover a lot of stuff Yoshi can do actually, if the ICs are to Grab greedy than no wonder you win everytime.

Yoshi:Link +2 doesn't make sense too, why is it like that? +2 is very GOOD, like no match-up could be easier, I don't think so
I can't agree with Yoshi:Zelda +1 but I can understand why this is, Zelda is soo underrepresented =/

well I like the idea of the list overall but we all need active character backrooms when that project restarts for better accuracy and more opinions.


oh and I just see, I would've never ever thought about people really think Yoshi:Wario is in Warios favor but I agree.

 

[Matador]

I could post the Lucario's discussions or writes ups that I did. Dunno if I am allowed to do that though,

Why wouldn't you be allowed?

 

[Browny]

RELEASE THE CABLES

I'll be your julian assange

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why wouldn't you be allowed?

Backroom info and stuff although the ones that got more public help I posted, still tomorrow I'll post what I know I can post.

 

[Coney]

I hope the IC Players will step their MUs up because Yoshi:ICs should be considered even because they cover a lot of stuff Yoshi can do actually, if the ICs are to Grab greedy than no wonder you win everytime.

ics are really really hard to make ratios for

because the MU discussions are supposed to be at the veeery highest level

except at the veeery highest level, an IC wouldn't drop grabs ever

there isn't, nor will there ever be (maybe? probably?) an IC that never, ever drops a grab

problematic-*** character

 

[_Kain_]

ics are really really hard to make ratios for

because the MU discussions are supposed to be at the veeery highest level

except at the veeery highest level, an IC wouldn't drop grabs ever

there isn't, nor will there ever be (maybe? probably?) an IC that never, ever drops a grab

problematic-*** character

Also the fact that every character is supposed to run away like a *****

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah I understand, Lain dropped a lot of Grabs against Polt, actually he should've lost :/

it's always with the reasoning that one grab = death. But it won't occure often in reality. :/

 

[Shaya]

Hey guys

@ Mario v Meta Knight.

MK panel was generally very .... mmm constrained in how deep they rated their advantages.
Mario also didn't have much active representation, and a lot of opposing panels just had their ratios with Mario set in their favour.

So it was a couple of panels saying we +3 mario, and MK arguing between +2 and +3 ("Oh we don't beat Mario as hard as others in +3 [bad logic imo]).

 

[DeLux]

ics are really really hard to make ratios for

because the MU discussions are supposed to be at the veeery highest level

except at the veeery highest level, an IC wouldn't drop grabs ever

there isn't, nor will there ever be (maybe? probably?) an IC that never, ever drops a grab

I've always hated this notion. At the very best, CGs will be subject to tripping (even if you d or fthrow people across the stage, at some point you will have to turn around since no level is long enough to infinite someone).

I've done some research on why IC's tend to drop CGs more against certain characters. Ironically, Yoshi was one of the "easier" characters to cg in terms of spacing and frame window of opportunity for successful regrabs. So if someone is dropping that CG left and right, it's because they "don't know the matchup".

Other characters though (I won't say who because that's no fun) are harder to CG. Should that factor into the matchup? I'm not sure.

It's probably reasonable to expect 1 dropped CG per match, even at the top level of play. Anything after that is player error imo