Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[san.]

edit: hey san how does rob gimp ike?

On non BF/SV ROB can fair Ike's aether while spinning from certain angles (not really worth it to try this unless you're confident). Getting hit with fair with a double jump is already a tricky to avoid getting gimped with another fair. Take away our double jump and you're good. ROB's most useful ability is to snap to the ledge at will from a nice distance below the stage, forcing Ike to at best aether onstage if you time it right.

Lasering aether might help set up the gimp in a practical manner.

For lulz you can invincible release and bair/fair us while aether is rising, don't think those will actually gimp though, but possible.

 

[Deleted member]

In all honesty, I think the BBR did a pretty good job with this. There's just a couple characters in Wolf's chart that I'm questioning why the MU is listed that way, but it looks pretty solid otherwise.

 

[Gea]

lol @ marth vs luigi at medium

Yeah... there are a few MUs that stick out hard. Peach vs D3 is another, and MK vs Diddy/Pika/Falco, as well as a few others.

I think one of the biggest issues though is that the scale doesn't make sense when you look at the context of all the MUs. Some -2s are way more difficult than others, etc etc. Oh well, MU charts are hard to maintain and even harder to make, so slack is given sort of.

 

[Ishiey]

Meh... there are quite a few things on this chart that just aren't right at all imo... :/ Still, this is a damn hard project to tackle, and serious props @ the BBR for finally getting it out there

Would it be possible to give links to the discussions? Or some actual thread on each MU explaining why a MU is the way it is? Because while a MU chart is great and all, it actually... doesn't contribute too much information. With all the work put into this, I'm sure you guys could create a thread for each matchup, or at least link the two threads used for each MU discussion for people to learn from?... *crosses fingers*

 

[Poltergust]

Kewkky, you know I don't agree with the Yoshi vs. Kirby number. Maybe we should re-discuss it again?

 

[z00ted]

Yeah... there are a few MUs that stick out hard. Peach vs D3 is another, and MK vs Diddy/Pika/Falco, as well as a few others.

I think one of the biggest issues though is that the scale doesn't make sense when you look at the context of all the MUs. Some -2s are way more difficult than others, etc etc. Oh well, MU charts are hard to maintain and even harder to make, so slack is given sort of.

Meh... there are quite a few things on this chart that just aren't right at all imo... :/ Still, this is a damn hard project to tackle, and serious props @ the BBR for finally getting it out there

Would it be possible to give links to the discussions? Or some actual thread on each MU explaining why a MU is the way it is? Because while a MU chart is great and all, it actually... doesn't contribute too much information. With all the work put into this, I'm sure you guys could create a thread for each matchup, or at least link the two threads used for each MU discussion for people to learn from?... *crosses fingers*

^all of this

 

[Smoom77]

I disagree with Yoshi:ICs. Can we play at Nikefest Polt? I've played Yosh, who I thought was pretty good at the matchup. And I'm basically the only ICs that hasn't played you.

 

[Poltergust]

Sure, but why do you disagree with it?

 

[Suspect]

Polt what do you think about the Yoshi vs Kirby matchup? I remembering playing that matchup with you back at Whobo 2 ha

 

[Sage JoWii]

really?
I know Lucas has nobody in the BBR in the only ones listed are PF and FAE.
Same with Ness except Shaky's the only one listed.
And I'm sure theres probably more.

I'm not meaning to single this individual out but his posts is like...a summary of what everyone is doing.

"Why is character X not +/- against character Y?!?!'

Who agreed on that ratio!??

I'ts not my opinion?? This MU chart is soooololololpoolllloooo dumz.'"

From what it looks like, the BBR members for that character, as well as people WHO HAVE MADE MONEY with said character, talked over the MUs and decided.

If you're mad abt a rating, it's probably because you play the character, don't make money ever, and have a different opinion. don't agree? Cry abt it.

 

[Poltergust]

Polt what do you think about the Yoshi vs Kirby matchup? I remembering playing that matchup with you back at Whobo 2 ha

To be brief, I think it's perfectly even.

 

[DMG]

Thanks Polt + Yoshis for your quick responses to my ICs question.


IMHO

For Ike I think vs Falco is -1

Ike vs Pika, ICs, Samus, Wario, ROB, wolf, sheik are at least even. Some I am unsure about whether they might be better worse or the same, such as Kirby, G&W, ZSS. I think Ike possibly beats Wario but I'm not 100% sure. Need to play Trela again to see how it is vs Lucario. -1 sounds right, but I want to make it better =)

I think Ike beats sheik. Ike is at least +1 vs Bowser and Jigglypuff. I thought we were +0 against Yoshi, too. We may be +0 against Ness but we have an advantage vs Lucas.

Ike does not beat Wario. When that matchup occurs, Ike tends to lose or go close to even. 55:45 / 6:4 Wario favor sounds about right.

Like, tomorrow soon?

Also: that reason for no LGLs is weak. You're the BBR: be consistent. The current tier list has no LGL. Until that changes, all other data has to use the exact same rules, otherwise they aren't compatible with each other. That means no LGLs, and that means characters like Falco take a hit MU wise, while characters like MK get an insane increase.

Not entirely true. The current tier list was composed of both LGL and non LGL considered ideals. The MAJORITY of votes cast towards the tier list were made in mind that a LGL WAS considered. Like, 2 or less lists were non LGL considered.

SO, basically the tier list was indeed based off a LGL including metagame, because we realized that even if our "ideal" was to have no LGL, that 99% of tournament results involved a LGL and it would be close to pure speculation to consider a metagame with no LGL.

Imo Fox should have

0: MK, Wario, Pit

No.

Maybe Pit, but let's start being realistic about Fox's matchups now.

Pikachu has less invinciblity frames than most characters so it makes it harder. I know just about every way to gimp Ike.

Not entirely true.

Pikachu has the same max invincibility as others from first opportunity off the edge, but overall Pikachu has less because he's not "stuck" on the edge in grab lag like other characters. Purely edge hogging and killing ike that way is harder, but it's basically the same to grab the edge and drop off attack.

Yeah... there are a few MUs that stick out hard. Peach vs D3 is another, and MK vs Diddy/Pika/Falco, as well as a few others.

I think one of the biggest issues though is that the scale doesn't make sense when you look at the context of all the MUs. Some -2s are way more difficult than others, etc etc. Oh well, MU charts are hard to maintain and even harder to make, so slack is given sort of.

Hit the hammer on the head.

 

[Ripple]

DK has quite a few that are a little off.

ICs are even, I'm pretty sure even ICs agree with that.

pit on the same level of difficulty of MK is ridiculous same with pikachu.

lol at the sethlon chart

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah... there are a few MUs that stick out hard. Peach vs D3 is another, and MK vs Diddy/Pika/Falco, as well as a few others.

I think one of the biggest issues though is that the scale doesn't make sense when you look at the context of all the MUs. Some -2s are way more difficult than others, etc etc. Oh well, MU charts are hard to maintain and even harder to make, so slack is given sort of.

From what I guessed it looks like they placed the characters from hardest to easiest per tier.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i think the pikachu matchups are terrible but what do i know

 

[Triple R]

As far as Kirby goes, this matchup chart has the Triple R seal of approval. I think you guys did a good job with this. Sounds like a disaster to discuss and put together though...

 

[Chuee]

No.

Maybe Pit, but let's start being realistic about Fox's matchups now.

You're right.
TKD, Trevonte, and Yui don't lose to MKs.
MU must be in Fox's favor

 

[san.]

@DMG
Agree to disagree. I never had any problems with any warios I've ever played. Lack of US Warios don't help either.

I am familiar with Pikachu's ledge grab invic frames, mostly. Dropping off to attack is not favorable against Ike. It's more favorable to have longer amounts of invincibility from grabbing the edge. Being forced to immediately aerial is a bad thing in terms of being able to gimp.

 

[Smoom77]

Sure, but why do you disagree with it?

I'm not sure if I agree with how the other ICs play the matchup.

How much Yoshi experience do Lain and Hylian and Future have?

 

[Xyro77]

I disagree with a lot, but I'll wait a day or two to see how this topic turns out.

Why isn't MK +2/+3 vs everyone?

Because the bbr does not know WTF they are doing. This chart is just another piece of poop they dish out.

 

[Hylian]

DK has quite a few that are a little off.

ICs are even, I'm pretty sure even ICs agree with that.

pit on the same level of difficulty of MK is ridiculous same with pikachu.

lol at the sethlon chart

No, most of the ic's think ic's vs dk is horrible for dk..because it is. How can you still think that match-up is even? lol. You've never beaten me in tournament, I've 3 stocked Ook, lain 3 stocked will at pound...dk is just so big he's combo fodder and his moves are laughably easy to bait and then just squall.

 

[Exceladon City]

I lose to DK on the reg. Then again, I'm a bad IC.

 

[Coney]

first off, if you're complaining about the matchups and you're...well, let's be blunt, you're not a top player, shut up. this chart was crafted by people better than you (except for a few characters) with more experience and knowledge on both their character and the opponent character in question.

second off, some of this stuff IS kinda wacky. i agree with heromystic on the mario thing, i feel like the MKs were a bit too...um...lenient? with their ratios. ddd, peach and mario are three examples.

THIRD off, vinnie, lol yeah. peach/ddd i thought was +1 for us, maybe +2? and i have no clue on sheik/zelda/sheilda, never fought a competent player of any of the three, except for neo's sheik in friendlies?

 

[Ripple]

No, most of the ic's think ic's vs dk is horrible for dk..because it is. How can you still think that match-up is even? lol. You've never beaten me in tournament, I've 3 stocked Ook, lain 3 stocked will at pound...dk is just so big he's combo fodder and his moves are laughably easy to bait and then just squall.

I've played you once in a singles tournament hylian... and need I remind you I beat you in a $mm right afterwords?

OOK is notoriously bad at that match up anyways

and so what if lain 3 stocked will at pound, lain's had all that me experience

 

[Smoom77]

Coney, if I'm complaining about ONE matchup, does that mean I need to shut up? I guess I'm not a top player, I can't discuss.

 

[Suspect]

first off, if you're complaining about the matchups and you're...well, let's be blunt, you're not a top player, shut up. this chart was crafted by people better than you (except for a few characters) with more experience and knowledge on both their character and the opponent character in question.

on that illuminati status

 

[Hylian]

I've played you once in a singles tournament hylian...

OOK is notoriously bad at that match up anyways

and so what if lain 3 stocked will at pound, lain's had all that me experience

Ok so if all the top dk players are getting 3 stocked by all the top IC players, how exactly is the match-up even again?

 

[Poltergust]

I'm not sure if I agree with how the other ICs play the matchup.

How much Yoshi experience do Lain and Hylian and Future have?

I dunno. Ask them.

 

[Nike.]

LOL at Coney

"These guys are better then you and know more so shut up"

"Oh btw, some of these are wacky"

 

[Hylian]

I have a good amount of yoshi experience. I haven't played polt recently in tournament though, only in friendlies at MLG. I think the match-up is even, but polt argued to death for it to be -1 lol.

 

[Ripple]

Ok so if all the top dk players are getting 3 stocked by all the top IC players, how exactly is the match-up even again?

OOK isn't a top DK player anymore, he hasn't been active in over 7 months

(i'm not either)

Will doesn't get 3 stocked all the time either. I believe he beats vinnie's ics sometimes also

 

[Coney]

LOL forgive me if i were a bit too harsh, infract me!

i just feel like from my experiences in the tier list thread leading up to this chart everyone said "LMFAO CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THIS EPIC FAIL xD !!!" mostly from players who haven't really done anything. for whatever reason people feel VERY strongly about matchups one way or another, myself included. but the fact is, unless you have the credentials to back yourself up, don't throw out ignorant criticism on the respected opinions of people who have done more than you.

LOL at Coney

"These guys are better then you and know more so shut up"

"Oh btw, some of these are wacky"

is my message getting across at all? i must sound so silly

i don't mean to be like "shut up scrubs your opinion holds no weight"

but more like, "who are you to criticize?"

 

[Browny]

hey, if the bbr gave me the excel file i could do it quite easily...and im sure anybody in the bbr that knows how to use excel could as well

EDIT: yes, this is an offer to write up a chart with the weighted averages

Lol u dont need an excel file, type it up yourself you could do it in 15-20 mins

 

[Hylian]

LOL forgive me if i were a bit too harsh, infract me!

i just feel like from my experiences in the tier list thread leading up to this chart everyone said "LMFAO CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THIS EPIC FAIL xD !!!" mostly from players who haven't really done anything. for whatever reason people feel VERY strongly about matchups one way or another, myself included. but the fact is, unless you have the credentials to back yourself up, don't throw out ignorant criticism on the respected opinions of people who have done more than you.



is my message getting across at all? i must sound so silly

I think it's ok to post criticisms as long as they give reasons along and don't just say it sucks for no reason lmao.

 

[Ripple]

coney, you realize that even if you have or are a top player, that doesn't mean you can assess the match up correctly.

M2K is a prime example of this.

 

[Tagxy]

Congrats and good job to all those that put this together. Looks good and it seems like most issues are very minor.

Only two consistent things that stand out:
1. Marth has better MU's then diddy/snake/falco/wario/everyone that isnt MK? Really? Marth for MK tier . It seems like every MU they might have controversy with (Pika, Lucario, DK, Rob, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, ZSS, etc.) fell to their favor. At least it was consistently bad

2. Fox's MUs seem lower then they should. Particularly his MK MU without an LGL. If anything it seems like he does the best of any character in the game.

 

[SpliziT]

No.

Maybe Pit, but let's start being realistic about Fox's matchups now.

Fox has no real problems against MK. We have plenty of video evidence to prove that and I'm not talking about wins against scrub MK's. Wario I'm not so sure about but he doesn't seem like a real threat either but since you main him then maybe you care to explain why that MU isn't even?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zss is 0 with wario and marth and -3 with falco

 

[Coney]

coney, you realize that even if you have or are a top player, that doesn't mean you can assess the match up correctly.

M2K is a prime example of this.

i understand totally

but you can't tell me xXsupersneakysnake69Xx2002 has as much knowledge, experience or ability as, say, fatal. and there are a LOT of matchups that change at the tippy-tippy top level, ddd/diddy is a good example. at anything except adhd/gnes level, it's even. at their level though, it's AWFUL. people perceive and interpret these matchups differently accordingly.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's intense. Good work!

Poor Link.