Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Maharba the Mystic]

Do you realize that minor trolling and is infractable? Seriously, don't post like that, all it does is piss people off.

Do you realize i don't really care and that infractions on a website about a video game is an oxy moron? go read the last ten pages and tell me tht again. plus i don't really give a **** about this thread anyways. the only thing tht matters in this thread is the chart and the fact that they will release a more accurate one at some point even though it is pretty acurate throughout and just needs touch ups.

don't post like that, it makes people not care.

*leaves this thread to not return for 3 weeks to see if it still ruined*

 

[Browny]

So yeah, Pit's matchups are all pretty overrated.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

you main pkmn trainer...... nuff said

I am hurt.

That said, who even plays Pit these days? That's not trying to be insulting--I just don't know. I don't keep up with tournament results or big names, really. Is Kool-Aid still doing things? I heard Krystedez planned on using him more.

So yeah, Pit's matchups are all pretty overrated.

Not all of them, but, most of the ones that don't involve him getting destroyed may very well be. He has a lot of 0's and +1's that I feel aren't very easy to take at face value.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

koolaid recently picked up pit again and got third at a tournament last week iirc.

edit: found the tournament http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301619

 

[z00ted]

ROB and Pit are too high.

Hopefully on the next update it looks something like this.



Kirby seems too high also.

wtf?

I thought this was the tier list thread xD

 

[Kaffei]

ROB and Pit are too high.

Hopefully on the next update it looks something like this.



Kirby seems too high also.

wtf?

I thought this was the tier list thread xD

only reason kirby was ever that high was cus of chu lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Do you realize that minor trolling and is infractable? Seriously, don't post like that, all it does is piss people off.

Your signature is trolling me.

 

[deepseadiva]

only reason kirby was ever that high was cus of chu lol

and then no one could disagree.

Seriously, don't post like that, all it does is piss people off.

llolololololololo

 

[Steam]

I honestly kind of feel Lucario has a +1 on pit... but yeah a lot of his ratios seem questionable...

 

[Nitrix]

I am hurt.

That said, who even plays Pit these days? That's not trying to be insulting--I just don't know. I don't keep up with tournament results or big names, really. Is Kool-Aid still doing things? I heard Krystedez planned on using him more.

Not all of them, but, most of the ones that don't involve him getting destroyed may very well be. He has a lot of 0's and +1's that I feel aren't very easy to take at face value.

Koolaid has returned to playing Pit, and Krystedez is putting alot of practice in.

Along with that, me and a few other players are attending tourneys. We're a pretty small group, but we are trying

I honestly kind of feel Lucario has a +1 on pit... but yeah a lot of his ratios seem questionable...

Like which ratio's exactly?

Pit versus Lucario is a lot of theorycrafting right now since there isn't much experience on either side. With that being considered, I think Pit does have the advantage. Pit's aerials like b-air are easier than average to land on lucario due to his floatiness, and arrows are great at harassing him in the air and taking advantage of the lag right before his up-B. Pit also has 2 reflectors for AS. Essentially Pit can outcamp Lucario, and pressure him hard offstage. What edge does Lucario have on Pit?

 

[Steam]

well if pit uses an arrow at any give time lucario can pretty much just fair through it.

Lucario can't outcamp hardly anyone anyways. not the issue. This issue would be how well pit does at stuffing lucario's approach/running away. and he's not stellar at that. but yes he can't really use aurasphere against pit. which kinda sucks because it would **** pit really hard if he could...

bair is going to be pretty hard to land on lucario... he can outspace it without too much difficulty and do things like Dair stalling or wavebouncing to make pit miss.

Pit can't do a whole lot to lucario offstage as long as lucario deals with the arrows properly. He can just fair through them/DJ airdodge and anything else he'd hit lucario with would send him quite high up. allowing him to recover. I honestly think Lucario does just as much to pit offstage if not more.

the biggest edge lucario has is Pit not killing him. just because bair can kill early doesn't mean he'll land it. Pikachu, D3, Falco, TL etc. all have moves that kill pretty early, but they always have to deal god mode lucario because they just can't land them on him (with the exception of D3 and his guranteed upsmash out of Dthrow that he now has >.>) I honestly don't know how pit's going to land a bair on lucario not being dumb... pit's air mobility/speed is pretty bad making his ability to punish things with it quite limited.

 

[Kewkky]

Kaffei and Meno: I bet I could beat both of you easily with my Kirby.

 

[Orion*]

I would sidebet kaffei

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

so steam.... do actually play any good pit's? bair isn't hard to land on lucario at all. pit has way more offstage pressure than you give him credit for, wing refresh lets us chase you down without fear of losing our recovery at all, and we can attack or foostool you out of it. not to mention lucario's recovery is sooo meh. really easy to gimp. also at just jumping and airdodging through arrows offstage, just pull an esca. charge your arrow till they dodge, then shoot. if it misses, edgehog em. really simple and effective against lucario.

also pit is not slow by any means, he just isn't super fast either. hes in the middle on speed. air mobility, are you counting WOI advanced techniques or not because if not then you're correct but with ATs he's rather fast and mobile.everything else you said is right, but it seems like most people forget pit can charge his arrows so you can't just fair through them, we expect people to react, pit is a character almost soley based on punishing hard.

@whoever, list the MU ratios that you think are wrong as im curious to know why. as far as we can tell like the only incorrect MUs are ICs could be 0 but -1 is acceptable, fox should be 0 not +1 us, TL should be -1, with the new ruleset ness should be +2 us, and snake could be a 0 but not really too worried on that one as koolaid's performance will move that MU itself. plus he has chaingrabs and fthrow>stutter step fsmash on over half the cast for an early 30%+ lead. and those he can chaingrab he has a potential 0-death on so really im not seeing what's wrong with most of his MUs at all.


is there honestly something else wrong with his MUs in yall's opinion?

 

[Coney]

Kaffei and Meno: I bet I could beat both of you easily with my Kirby.

i'd sidebet against that

 

[Nitrix]

well if pit uses an arrow at any give time lucario can pretty much just fair through it.

Lucario can't outcamp hardly anyone anyways. not the issue. This issue would be how well pit does at stuffing lucario's approach/running away. and he's not stellar at that. but yes he can't really use aurasphere against pit. which kinda sucks because it would **** pit really hard if he could...

bair is going to be pretty hard to land on lucario... he can outspace it without too much difficulty and do things like Dair stalling or wavebouncing to make pit miss.

Pit can't do a whole lot to lucario offstage as long as lucario deals with the arrows properly. He can just fair through them/DJ airdodge and anything else he'd hit lucario with would send him quite high up. allowing him to recover. I honestly think Lucario does just as much to pit offstage if not more.

the biggest edge lucario has is Pit not killing him. just because bair can kill early doesn't mean he'll land it. Pikachu, D3, Falco, TL etc. all have moves that kill pretty early, but they always have to deal god mode lucario because they just can't land them on him (with the exception of D3 and his guranteed upsmash out of Dthrow that he now has >.>) I honestly don't know how pit's going to land a bair on lucario not being dumb... pit's air mobility/speed is pretty bad making his ability to punish things with it quite limited.

The value of off-stage arrows is pressure, and you are right in the sense that Lucario can f-air a ton to help deal with them. However when Lucario has to up-b, arrows can capitalize on the start-up lag. Since the arrows can be curved, successive hits can keep him in that suspended state as he slowly falls to a position where he can't recover. In air combat, Pit and Lucario go even in terms of range and strength, however Pit has more jumps and can pressure to a greater degree. Pit's u-air does go through Lucario's d-air if it is spaced to the side IIRC

Furthermore, Pit has other options than b-air in this matchup. B-Air isn't the main kill move for Pit, it is instead the move that can be used to punish reads or score lucky kills with. Anyways I'd honestly say Lucario and Pit are probably equal in killing.

This matchup is very much based on the first kill. If Pit gets it in, then he pretty much has it made in the shade. If lucario gets the first kill, it gets a bit harder.

 

[Steam]

how is bair easy to land on lucario? lucario is more mobile and has faster aerials. meaning it will be quite hard for pit to land a sweetspot bair while maintaining perfect spacing as the sweet spot is only the first two frames. and even then luc can get around it without too much difficulty with disjoints. but yeah he can land it on a read, though he'll need a pretty hard read. I'm honestly more afraid of Fsmash.

Lucario's fair is frame 5 so he can just fair on reaction to the release of the arrow.

Lucario's recovery is only "easy" to gimp if you're MK. other than that only a few characters can really abuse it. Pit can maybe get some extra damage on a read... he has nothing to really take a stock like that.

 

[Meru.]

Kaffei and Meno: I bet I could beat both of you easily with my Kirby.

Meno will **** this **** out of you!

 

[Orion*]

yeah I don't see people getting hit by pits bair to often unless they are making to many dumb mistakes :<

and lol I love how nobody has faith in kewkky

 

[Spelt]

kewkky's forgetting that meno lives in the same state as bees, the top money winning kirby currently.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I hear that Colorado has a tournament about twice a year, though. :/

 

[Steam]

The value of off-stage arrows is pressure, and you are right in the sense that Lucario can f-air a ton to help deal with them. However when Lucario has to up-b, arrows can capitalize on the start-up lag. Since the arrows can be curved, successive hits can keep him in that suspended state as he slowly falls to a position where he can't recover. In air combat, Pit and Lucario go even in terms of range and strength, however Pit has more jumps and can pressure to a greater degree. Pit's u-air does go through Lucario's d-air if it is spaced to the side IIRC

Furthermore, Pit has other options than b-air in this matchup. B-Air isn't the main kill move for Pit, it is instead the move that can be used to punish reads or score lucky kills with. Anyways I'd honestly say Lucario and Pit are probably equal in killing.

This matchup is very much based on the first kill. If Pit gets it in, then he pretty much has it made in the shade. If lucario gets the first kill, it gets a bit harder.

when lucario has to upB he's in a horrible position against just about everyone. if Lucario DIs properly he shouldn't need to upB however due to his floatiness+big DJ+decent airspeed.

Lucario should probably be ground based against pit. Pit can't pressure him well there from the air since everything pit has to pressure in that position is punishable. That and air camping lucario doesn't work well at all if you aren't much more mobile than him. on the ground lucario outspaces and isn't too much slower... or maybe he's around the same... I'll have to look at pit's frame data. all I know is that his Fsmash is like frame 6.

Lucario probably has an easier time killing overall due to aura making just about any move a viable kill move at high%. he also can punish any spaced ground move or spaced aerial with a pivot Fsmash on a read.

I hate it when everyone says all lucario matchups are dependent on the first kill... It really buries luario in cases in which someone has a reliable early kill move kill power like snake. Lucario is boned if he dies first against snake because not only will it take luc forever to take snake's first stock. even if pit takes the first stock and lucario takes 75% more before killing pit, Lucario can still pretty easily even that... likewise pit can come back just as easily on a lucario with the lead...

 

[Kewkky]

Meno will **** this **** out of you!

I disagreed with Meno, my mission has been accomplished. But hey, if we ever meet I'll be more than glad to play against him! I know Kirby will not let me down, he definitely deserves his place in the tier list/MU chart.

kewkky's forgetting that meno lives in the same state as bees, the top money winning kirby currently.

Top money-making Kirby? That's only because I was in PR and in boot camp. Too bad for bees!

and lol I love how nobody has faith in kewkky

Puertorricans never have it easy, man. You always gotta go out of your way to find players and beat them for them to finally say you're good... But it's okay, sinced that was my intent anyway. I got a lot of time before I'm sent to a ship, and when that happens it'll be too late for me.

 

[Nanaki]

koolaid recently picked up pit again and got third at a tournament last week iirc.

edit: found the tournament http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301619

Did anyone else notice that Dazwa got 7th in that tournament with Random?

 

[Kaffei]

Kaffei and Meno: I bet I could beat both of you easily with my Kirby.

Idk man... I played a 4 hour session with Chu at pound 5 and I won like 40% of the games

 

[Lenus Altair]

well if pit uses an arrow at any give time lucario can pretty much just fair through it.

Hyperbole

Lucario can't outcamp hardly anyone anyways. not the issue. This issue would be how well pit does at stuffing lucario's approach/running away. and he's not stellar at that.

He does well enough (averagish). Lucario doesn't have much to really keep in Pit's face if the pit is running. Which means Lucario is approaching. He will not dodge every arrow.

bair is going to be pretty hard to land on lucario... he can outspace it without too much difficulty and do things like Dair stalling or wavebouncing to make pit miss.

Lucario is quite susceptable to wingstalling with his poor cool down on a number of moves making it not unreasonable to land a bair.It requires a read to land, but it also requires a read to stop a wingstall.

Pit can't do a whole lot to lucario offstage as long as lucario deals with the arrows properly. He can just fair through them/DJ airdodge and anything else he'd hit lucario with would send him quite high up. allowing him to recover. I honestly think Lucario does just as much to pit offstage if not more.

Pit can do plenty between wing renewal and arrows still forcing lucario to commit and take hits. Lucario isn't super easy for Pit to gimp, but he's far from the hardest and either way you're probably getting hurt coming back onstage. I don't think it's resonable to claim the same for a lucario pressuring Pits return.

the biggest edge lucario has is Pit not killing him. just because bair can kill early doesn't mean he'll land it. Pikachu, D3, Falco, TL etc. all have moves that kill pretty early, but they always have to deal god mode lucario because they just can't land them on him (with the exception of D3 and his guranteed upsmash out of Dthrow that he now has >.>) I honestly don't know how pit's going to land a bair on lucario not being dumb... pit's air mobility/speed is pretty bad making his ability to punish things with it quite limited.

Wingstall helps this but yes, Lucarios Survivability helps him a lot.

how is bair easy to land on lucario? lucario is more mobile and has faster aerials. meaning it will be quite hard for pit to land a sweetspot bair while maintaining perfect spacing as the sweet spot is only the first two frames. and even then luc can get around it without too much difficulty with disjoints. but yeah he can land it on a read, though he'll need a pretty hard read. I'm honestly more afraid of Fsmash.

F smash is more viable in this matchup yes, but bair is still useful as mentioned above. Lucario is punishable with the mobility of a wingstall.

Lucario's fair is frame 5 so he can just fair on reaction to the release of the arrow.

Between jumping and having to land, this isn't always an option. You'll cut through many arrows, but some will still get through.

Lucario's recovery is only "easy" to gimp if you're MK. other than that only a few characters can really abuse it. Pit can maybe get some extra damage on a read... he has nothing to really take a stock like that.

Nothing as harsh as MK no, still several ways to take a stock or at least make it painful getting back.

when lucario has to upB he's in a horrible position against just about everyone. if Lucario DIs properly he shouldn't need to upB however due to his floatiness+big DJ+decent airspeed.

Very True

Lucario should probably be ground based against pit. Pit can't pressure him well there from the air since everything pit has to pressure in that position is punishable.That and air camping lucario doesn't work well at all if you aren't much more mobile than him.

Again Wingstalling. Lucario is a matchup to abuse Wings.

on the ground lucario outspaces and isn't too much slower... or maybe he's around the same... I'll have to look at pit's frame data. all I know is that his Fsmash is like frame 6.

F smash and U Smash are 6, D smash is 5.

Lucario probably has an easier time killing overall due to aura making just about any move a viable kill move at high%. he also can punish any spaced ground move or spaced aerial with a pivot Fsmash on a read.

I agree Lucario has an easier time killing as a whole. A pivot Fsmash read sounds about as likely as a Wingstall Bair. Maybe.

I hate it when everyone says all lucario matchups are dependent on the first kill... It really buries luario in cases in which someone has a reliable early kill move kill power like snake. Lucario is boned if he dies first against snake because not only will it take luc forever to take snake's first stock. even if pit takes the first stock and lucario takes 75% more before killing pit, Lucario can still pretty easily even that... likewise pit can come back just as easily on a lucario with the lead...

I agree.

As a whole I see the matchup as even. Lucario has some distinct pros in the matchup, but so does Pit. Especially A pit who runs away and abuses WOI in the air.

Pits matchups in this chart I dont fully agree with. One or two are too low and vice versa, but as a whole it's fairly close. I still feel Pit is underrated by most in the smash community.

 

[deepseadiva]

Kirby. I dunno.

Peach outranges it too hard.

I hear that Colorado has a tournament about twice a year, though. :/

Hey.

Yea.

But we're flashy and technical due to all the single player.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Don't lie Meno, you play with the best kirby in the us lol

 

[Browny]

12:06am

*leaves this thread to not return for 3 weeks to see if it still ruined*

6:58am

stuff about Pit

Lmao, baited HARD.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

12:06am

6:58am

Lmao, baited HARD.

i can't deny it. i was baited, i bit the hook, didn't even nibble just straight up bit it hard, and i got realed in. there isn't anyway i can argue this. the subject came up, and i was like, "finally, the one character who i know inside outside and upside down in almost every aspect both MUs and technique and ATs application and everything is being talked about! my main. *feels satisfied but not sure why*"

also i think the fisherman who realed me in used dead worms, i feel kinda sick tonight.

but i agree that pit lucario is even.

and just so you don't gotta go lookin up frame data, lenus did some but here is all of it that matters in this MU kill wise (idk about lucario specifically, but this is the approximations that are generally true against most characters):

dsmash (will kill around 130-140 fresh)-5
fsmash (will kill around 120-140 fresh)-6
usmash (idk why i listed this, i just did because lenus did)-6
dair (viable killer at 165-170)-6
Dash Attack (viable killer at 150 and can be true combo-ed into out of pivot arrow)-7
bair (will kill at 90-120 based on whether it's near the edge or in the center of the stage)-9 (crit frames and hitbox are both extended if used out of WOI which is one of the main reasons besides just the usual punish game that make wingstalling and other WOI tricks so viable in this MU.)

and yes lenus pit's uair beats out lucario's dair if we space it to the side. if it's from directly above us then his dair wins.

ESCA NAMESEARCH THIS AND GET IN HERE. YOU KNOW THIS BETTER MU BETTER THAN ANY1 SINCE YOU PLAY TRELA SO OFTEN.

ESCA ESCA ESCA ESACA

hope that works

 

[Sinister Slush]

Namesearching doesn't work for most people for some odd reason.
Infact... Is there even a reason behind it?

 

[Scatz]

Searching has been messed up since the new skin.

 

[Steam]

I honestly don't know what pit is trying to bait with a wingstall that he could punish with bair... the only thing I can forsee a lucario committing to in that situation would be trying to Uair at pit in which case the worst case scenario is he gets daired which won't kill til really late...

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

when i think about we need to split the term into 2 parts because it applies to just stalling in the air and dodging attacks with grounded WOI. when you dodge something with grounded WOI and then just fast fall the aerial (in this case bair) it's perfectly viable. tbh when i play trela (which isn't often but i always do when we are at the same brawl event) this and edguarding are the only ways i've killed him so far. problem is it's trela lol, i've only gotten him to 1 stock with the exception of one win that doesn't count because it was late and he was falling asleep on sync's couch lol.

i know vids don't really matter for MUs and such but im gonna go find and edit in or post some Esca vs. Trela vids. seeing as how they are both top players for their character it should account for something. thing is though WOI tricks aren't esca's style so he just uses really good spacing in the MU. so i guess WOI tricks aren't even really neccessary to win this MU, but for most players they make MUs like this alot easier. just goes to show there is more than one way to play a match up.

Edit:
well here you go, esca beating trela by playing a pure punish game. late 2010. didn't even use WOI tricks. but like i said they ain't his style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlF_95qFVQ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PafRRevJM1c&feature=related

 

[Browny]

March is now considered 'late'?

 

[Poltergust]

Ignore this post.

 

[Steam]

but if you're fast falling an aerial from that you're going to hit an opponent on the ground... when the best response for a lucario would probably be to either commit to nothing or jump at pit... It's only really good for punishing lucarios with Ftilt,Fsmash,Spotdodge habits or maybe ones that are shield happy. read that post wrong. it would be dependant on how long it takes for the wingstall dodge thingy... if it's fast enough then sure... But you will still have to get a read, same as lucario can get a read with Fsmash or something else... but just floating in the air with it shouldn't be getting you bair kills unless the lucario has bad habits... again, I think it's close because even once lucario approaches, pit's inside game is really strong. this matchup reminds me of the falco matchup lol.

and yeah those matches are over a year old... Trela has improved a lot since then, but one top player set doesn't prove anything. Especially when in the second one Trela SDs twice.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

like is said when i posted, i know vids aren't a great example, but that's all i got to show for now. and were they posted in march, i must've misread the date. but yeah the wing dodge thing is about 30-35 frames with the fast fall i believe. but atm im pretty buzzed so ill do math tomorrow. but yeah don't get me wrong, i know vids don't portray a MU perfectly, but don't forget that esca has gotten better too.

 

[Steam]

so the only ground move he'd be able to punish with that without a really hard read (like so early someone with really good reflexes could stop themself) is Fsmash. he's still need a pretty decent read though but it can see it. Not sure if he'd hit luc's lingerbox on fsmash while trying to sweespot it. I'm sure he can... it's probably just tricky timing.

I can see it ****** lucario trying to land with a spaced bair though.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

yeah pit vs lucario is simple to lay out really. a more complicated one would be like pit vs spacies or pit vs diddy. all of those are really close and just wind up boiling down to who is the better player. another complicated MU is TL. freakin jerm man, i just can't keep up with him yet.