Official BBR Tier List v5

[Nestec]

@ J:

So you're going to just say that Fair is a good approach option because challenging such a notion leads to theorycraft?

I'm lazy. Give me the proof that Dtilt to Usmash is a guaranteed set-up. Because this could potentially bring Lucas up to B tier.

:green:

 

[Mr.-0]

Nobody anwsereed my question!

 

[NickRiddle]

I like how people think I have no Lucas exp...
Except Galeon lives in SFL, and we play fairly regularly...
And Pink Fresh said Galeon was better than him, so according to Pink Fresh, I have "better" Lucas exp than 90% of the people in this thread saying Lucas is better.


You can beat Lucas by staying mid-range from him. He has nothing surprising he can do to you. If he tries to jump in, you shield. If he does nair, you jump/roll away after the nair finishes.
If he does anything else, you punish it, because he hit your shield with a move that has almost any frames of lag, and he's close to you due to his lack of range. If he runs in... dodge? His moves aren't safe on shield, and his grab isn't the fastest ever.
If he PK Fires, he just moved backwards, so you shield it and reset.
If you don't air-dodge into him, he shouldn't be killing you before ~140. Grab kills most people at around 150%, so once you get there shielding isn't totally safe.


Ness has similar weaknesses, except he has moves safer on shield, and the fastest dashing-grab in the game. If his PK fire does hit, unlike Lucas, he can combo out of it. Shaky regularly gets 30-40% from one PK fire. Galeon gets... the % the PK Fire does.
Lucas's recovery is better than Ness's... but it's MUCH less scary to attempt an edgeguard against. If you mess up an edgeguard vs. Ness at 20%, you die. If you mess up an edgeguard vs. Lucas at 20%... you get hit?
Ness's b-throw is a much more reliable ill-move than anything Lucas has. Lucas CAN kill earlier, yes, but if you play smart... yeah...




Lucas is scarier if you cannot tech, and have a habit of air-dodging in. Ness is scarier when you can tech, know both MUs, and don't air-dodge in.




inb4galeonisbadandyouloseallcredibility

 

[Chuee]

Hell no it's not guaranteed. How is it not possible for one to roll away before Lucas can release his Usmash?

Wow, you're so stupid lmao.
Do you even know what a jab lock is/what it does?

Gentlemen, let's not get into super theory bros brawl here. You can't type out a fight on smashboards, lol.

Son, Im the North American Super Theory Bros Champion.

 

[Poltergust]

Man, I thought the list was fine and then I saw Peach and Pit at the low end of mid tier. That should be fixed. Shoot, Polt. Didn't a Pit just win a tournament in your own state recently?

Edit: Nvm, it's Z's list. Yeah, Pit and Peach at the lowest rung of mid is stupid.

I know that you realized that it wasn't my list, but I just want to clarify that I don't live in Florida anymore. I'm only down here now for winter break. I live in Texas now.

Anyways, I do think that Lucas is better than Ness, but as of now he hasn't proved it yet, so I can't put Lucas above Ness in good conscience.

 

[DMG]

Lucas guaranteed setup? Try Usmash after they roll into you.

Which is better? That depends. Ness has MLG placing; can't argue with that till Galeon/Pink go to a huge tournament and do something similar to Shaky.

 

[Nestec]

You're assuming that you'll react perfectly every time and that you'll always have room to roll back, and that the Lucas won't mix it up.

Except that Lucas can't mix it up! What's he gonna "mix-up" with?

:green:

 

[Coney]

does any of this even really matter?

no one is gonna be like OH YEAH NOW I SEE THE LIGHT HOW COULD I BE SO BLIND

i think ness is better than lucas, even with pink practice (he's my static partner and he's in my CREW) and he says ness is better himself (i think)

but to be honest they've done similar things throughout brawl's entire lifespan and trying to compare the two is splitting hairs. i guess it's fun if you have nothing else to discuss?

 

[Delta-cod]

Except that Lucas can't mix it up! What's he gonna "mix-up" with?

:green:

Well, first off, he doesn't have to jump at you. Secondly, he could PKF at you to test your reaction to him jumping, and then use that accordingly next time. Or he could just empty SH at you, and then you just rolled backwards, lost stage positioning, AND he's not in a punishable state. If he doesn't jump immediately and keeps running, he can chase the roll with a nair. And even then, if you didn't roll and just shielded, you're probably not getting a punish off the nair, and even if you do, it's probably not substantial.

Those are just some possibilities, although mixups are largely player related and depend on the fight. Those are some that I would use, personally.

 

[Nestec]

Wow, you're so stupid lmao.
Do you even know what a jab lock is/what it does?

My apologies, I thought you meant Dair-to-Dtilt-to-Usmash.

Either way, again, you're making too many assumptions by saying this is reliable. If Lucas could do this so easily, he would be performing much better.

@ Coney

Yeah man, I'm having a good time, I dunno about everyone else.

I think Ness is better. I probably won't be convinced otherwise, as long as I'm discussing it with the people I'm currently discussing it with.

:green:

 

[Mr.-0]

I say, since NIckRiddle is better than all of you lucas lovers, he wins. Best logic in the world. Now let's move on to something that's not totally undebatable, since the end result you guys are going to get to is that they're equal. So, I say we debate on Falco or something. How about Falco And Marth? Yeah, tghat's better. An actually intresting and important debate. DO IT

 

[Ripple]

My apologies, I thought you meant Dair-to-Dtilt-to-Usmash.

Either way, again, you're making too many assumptions by saying this is reliable. If Lucas could do this so easily, he would be performing much better.
:

he does do it easily! if you touch lucas' shield then he gets a chance to do this.

 

[Chuee]

i like how people think i have no lucas exp...
Except galeon lives in sfl, and we play fairly regularly...
And pink fresh said galeon was better than him, so according to pink fresh, i have "better" lucas exp than 90% of the people in this thread saying lucas is better.
until galeon can take a game off m2k pf is better.


you can beat lucas by staying mid-range from him. He has nothing surprising he can do to you. If he tries to jump in, you shield. If he does nair, you jump/roll away after the nair finishes.
doesn't matter if you shield. All of his aerials are safe on block.
if he does anything else, you punish it, because he hit your shield with a move that has almost any frames of lag, and he's close to you due to his lack of range.
these moves being?
if he runs in... Dodge? His moves aren't safe on shield,
completely false. Fair is like -9 on shield i think? So if he spaces it the only thing you can punish it with is a 2 frame ranged move. Oh and nair eats shields.
and his grab isn't the fastest ever.
If he pk fires, he just moved backwards, so you shield it and reset.
If you don't air-dodge into him, he shouldn't be killing you before ~140. Grab kills most people at around 150%, so once you get there shielding isn't totally safe.
false, he can kill with fsmash by using it to outrange moves. Dsmash is pretty good as an edgeguard move. Oh, and even though everyone says teching dair doesn't get you killed, thats wrong. I've seen pf read peoples techs after dair and fsmash them.


ness has similar weaknesses, except he has moves safer on shield, and the fastest dashing-grab in the game. If his pk fire does hit, unlike lucas, he can combo out of it.
not if you learn to di out of it. Oh, and if you jump over ness grounded pkf its a free hit.
shaky regularly gets 30-40% from one pk fire. Galeon gets... The % the pk fire does.
Lucas's recovery is better than ness's... But it's much less scary to attempt an edgeguard against. If you mess up an edgeguard vs. Ness at 20%, you die.
which is why you learn to tell when you can hit him before he uses pkt2. If you can't just grab the ledge and punish it.
if you mess up an edgeguard vs. Lucas at 20%... You get hit?
Ness's b-throw is a much more reliable ill-move than anything lucas has. Lucas can kill earlier, yes, but if you play smart... Yeah...
if you play smart you can avoid grabs too.




lucas is scarier if you cannot tech, and have a habit of air-dodging in. Ness is scarier when you can tech, know both mus, and don't air-dodge in.




Inb4galeonisbadandyouloseallcredibility

1234567890

 

[Nestec]

Well, first off, he doesn't have to jump at you. Secondly, he could PKF at you to test your reaction to him jumping, and then use that accordingly next time.

Except that Lucas' approach can be dealt with on reaction. If I see Lucas do something different the second time, I'll react differently.

:green:

 

[Seagull Joe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LXbsKDNIsg

Lucas too good^

 

[Chuee]

Except that Lucas' approach can be dealt with on reaction. If I see Lucas do something different the second time, I'll react differently.

:green:

Go google search the average human reaction time in frames, then come back.
@Seagull- If only we had PF vs M2K game 2 on youtube. drats.

 

[Coney]

to be honest i am much more afraid of ness than i am of lucas, mostly because lucas is like a mini-g&w with obvious killers that don't hit safe people. ness' bair is an infinitely greater kill move than anything i can think of for lucas, and he also has DAT THROW

here's a hint on how to avoid getting dair locked: HOLD UP.

 

[DMG]

to be honest i am much more afraid of ness than i am of lucas, mostly because lucas is like a mini-g&w with obvious killers that don't hit safe people

here's a hint on how to avoid getting dair locked: HOLD UP.

I SDI to the sides usually. Just depends. Sometimes I like purposefully SDIing down so that I hit the ground sooner and can roll/getup attack before they can Dtilt me.

 

[Nestec]

Go google search the average human reaction time in frames, then come back.
@Seagull- If only we had PF vs M2K game 2 on youtube. drats.

Why don't you just tell me the average human reaction time in frames?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LXbsKDNIsg

Lucas too good^

Ya guyz see that 0-death Shaky's Ness pulled on Judge's MK?

:green:

 

[Chuee]

to be honest i am much more afraid of ness than i am of lucas, mostly because lucas is like a mini-g&w with obvious killers that don't hit safe people

here's a hint on how to avoid getting dair locked: HOLD UP.

You shouldn't be afraid of Ness when you're using D3 :/

 

[Ripple]

Except that Lucas' approach can be dealt with on reaction. If I see Lucas do something different the second time, I'll react differently.

:green:

LOL. I was unaware that lucas was as slow as ganon especially with that frame 2 jab

to be honest i am much more afraid of ness than i am of lucas, mostly because lucas is like a mini-g&w with obvious killers that don't hit safe people. ness' bair is an infinitely greater kill move than anything i can think of for lucas, and he also has DAT THROW

here's a hint on how to avoid getting dair locked: HOLD UP.

that doesn't work coney

 

[Nestec]

So, I say we debate on Falco or something. How about Falco And Marth? Yeah, tghat's better. An actually intresting and important debate. DO IT

Falco is better.

LOL. I was unaware that lucas was as slow as ganon especially with that frame 2 jab

He's not fast enough to punish a retreating enemy.

:green:

 

[Coney]

holding up has literally always worked for me. that's the simple way, i usually SDI up just in case but i'm not 100% sure if it's necessary

i mean to say i'm more afraid of ness than lucas is like saying i'm more afraid of spiders than fire ants to be honest, neither are actually threatening (except like, the best spiders and fire ants), it's just that i perceive the spider has more tools to ruin my day

then again this could just be because i play with fire ants all the time and understand them, and the only good spider lives in FL and i've never played him and i feel like he could do some wacky **** to my character

 

[Xnpio]

I love how basically the only thing that has been pointed out as making Ness better than Lucas, is his fair.
Those that think Lucas is better have actually given a few different reasons...

 

[Nestec]

There are spiders in MN too...

...oh, ha.

:green:

 

[Coney]

ness has more reliable killers, though they're not as strong
ness' recovery, while more gimpable, can obliterate a stock if you mess up

there

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I love how basically the only thing that has been pointed out as making Ness better than Lucas, is his fair.
Those that think Lucas is better have actually given a few different reasons...

You missed the dash grab comments? Or Bthrow comments? Or the comments explains how Lucas's combos don't work? Or the MLG result comments? Or Ness actually being able to combo with his PK fire comments? Or the various other things that have been mentioned?

Nice selective reading there.

 

[Nestec]

I love how basically the only thing that has been pointed out as making Ness better than Lucas, is his fair.
Those that think Lucas is better have actually given a few different reasons...

Ok, fine.

Ness has a cooler outfit.
Ness doesn't sound like a pansy when he gets KO'd.
Ness doesn't run from fat plumbers with zig zag moustaches.
And Ness has a bigger ****.

:green:

 

[Chuee]

ness' recovery, while more gimpable, can obliterate a stock if you mess up
there

Grab the ledge if you don't think you can make it.
EDIT:
Niddo saying those is like me saying Lucas is better because his Dair does 20%.

 

[Nestec]

Grab the ledge if you don't think you can make it.

Have you ever even gimped a good Ness before?

:green:

 

[Coney]

Grab the ledge if you don't think you can make it.
EDIT:
Niddo saying those is like me saying Lucas is better because his Dair does 20%.

sure, but then you're not gimping him at all. good ness' won't be recovering that low, i'm talking about specifically jumping into the thunder and/or hitting him out of it.

if you just get the ledge, he'll recover and you'll do a nice bit of damage, but it probably won't kill and even if it did, that's not gimpable, just bad

 

[_Kain_]

Pink Fresh beating M2K doesn't make him better than galeon fail logic is fail

 

[Allied]

sure, but then you're not gimping him at all. good ness' won't be recovering that low, i'm talking about specifically jumping into the thunder and/or hitting him out of it.

if you just get the ledge, he'll recover and you'll do a nice bit of damage, but it probably won't kill and even if it did, that's not gimpable, just bad

Thats not butt, just mans butt.

 

[Chuee]

Have you ever even gimped a good Ness before?

:green:

gimped?
No, I've been hit by his PKT2 like maybe twice, mostly because I absorb the tail and not the head so I get hit.
I've gimped every Ness I've played except Vicegrip though :3
@Coney: Yes, but you can possibly knock him back offstage where he won't have his DJ, and now you'll have plenty of time to gimp him.
EDIT: Kain- I guess that could just mean hes better at the MK MU, but PF places slightly better.

 

[_Kain_]

@Coney: Yes, but you can possibly knock him back offstage where he won't have his DJ, and now you'll have plenty of time to gimp him.

Same applies to Lucas

 

[Coney]

yeah, i guess that makes sense

i think what i'm trying to say is that i think people vastly overestimate ness' gimpability, it's really not that bad. ness' recovery is worse than lucas', but it shouldn't really matter too much, it's like saying mk's is better than kirby's...

i understand some of the points lucas has over ness, but i think the recovery point is bogus

 

[Mr.-0]

Seriously, this Ness vs Lucas **** is getting old. Since everyone seems to hate Falco and marth, let's go to Olimar. So, what does everyone think about Olimar? I think he should rise.

 

[Chuee]

Same applies to Lucas

Yes, but
1. Ness is forced to use PKT more often offstage then Lucas.
2. Lucas' PKT sends him like twice as far.

yeah, i guess that makes sense

i think what i'm trying to say is that i think people vastly overestimate ness' gimpability, it's really not that bad. ness' recovery is worse than lucas', but it shouldn't really matter too much, it's like saying mk's is better than kirby's...

i understand some of the points lucas has over ness, but i think the recovery point is bogus

hmmmmm I disagree, but I guess thats just me knowing all sorts of ways to abuse Ness recovery that most people don't know about :/

 

[_Kain_]

Yes, but
1. Ness is forced to use PKT more often offstage then Lucas.
2. Lucas' PKT sends him like twice as far.

Touche Lucas main i stand defeated. *lurks debate for chance to get back in*

 

[Mr.-0]

Touche Lucas main i stand defeated. *lurks debate for chance to get back in*

Good luck. This Crap has been going on for 5 pages.