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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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Sadly, this is true.
Browny
Smash Hater
^^
I lost.
Oh wait, wrong thread...
I lost.
Oh wait, wrong thread...
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I'm saying that if your character has a good air game it counts for a lot. A good ground game counts for less unless the ground game offers a lot of stage control.
Ground-oriented characters aren't typically as good, unless they're campers like Snake, Diddy, or Falco. Even ICs have tapered off a lot, even though I guess you could say they have an OK air game. Strictly speaking, high tier characters offer a lot of air control. I'm sure there's an example I'm not thinking of right now that doesn't follow this argument but for the most part I think I'm right.
Coney
Smash Master
why would you tech it if you don't have to get hit by the whole thing? you're like a sonic player that snickers when people don't tech dthrow, despite it not always granting positional advantageSeriously? You too?
It's amazing how many people still don't realize you can just tech the dair and be completely safe.
PLUS you'll be BELOW lucas ready to juggle him instead of the other way around.
Maaaaaagical.
Also Lucas' zair is not that safe. it's stupid easy to hit the snake before lucas pulls up to the ledge.
if i can get out after three hits of dair, why would i wait for the fourth hit and take more damage just to tech?
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Oh, well I thought you were just saying DI up so you get hit by the 4th hit's sourspot which sends you up, instead of down.
if you really can consistently avoid the last hit then that's definitely better.
Wait, can I even block myself?
if you really can consistently avoid the last hit then that's definitely better.
Me too, sista. Me too.
Wait, can I even block myself?
Orion*
Smash Researcher
i dont agree.... at all. i honestly think you think that just from maining a character with crap ground game XD
the second you jump you put yourself in a disadvantaged position in comparison to a standing opponent unless you have a read, its actually quite similar to dashing imo.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Meru.
I like spicy food
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The loss of the rankings thread. There used to a tier list and a tournament results thread, but now some seem to have problems seperating these from each other.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
If you hit Lucas's Rope Snake as soon as it tethers the edge, it counts as you hitting Lucas.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Lucas' rope snake counts as being part of Lucas' hurtbox so when he uses it, hitting the snake hits Lucas.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
dont forget ripple. got that FAE reasoning as to why lucas is better.
lol... ok.
This was hilarious.
D
Deleted member
Guest
^^^Smooth.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
People also tend to look toward theoretical, non-confirmed matchup numbers and opinionated tool-analysis when they are desperate to ignore the truth of what actually happening in tournaments and what people are doing in the metagame.
Case in point, there are still people (albeit much less of them, but theyre still out there) that think sonic is a borderline low tier character.
The members of the second group tend to be more out of touch and flat out worse at the game then the members of the first group.
huh... good to know...
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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I should have just let some of the guys above me reespond to infinite. They would've gotten the point across much better. And da.Kid, where did you get those assumptions from, like Yaay said, I just think the people who worship tournament results in a tier list are just there because the tounrament rankings thread is down. Theyy arn't smater or better at the game or anything just because they value tournament results over theorycraft. When the Tournie Ranking thread was still on, most people would just say, "this is a tier list, not the tounrament rankings thread, that's over here *post link*". Now that it's down, people think that it should be mergeed or something into the tier list. I've never seen tournament results matter that much in a tier list. I think tool analysis and matchups matter way more than tournament results, and I'm not flat -out worse at the game because of that.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Your analyses of a character's respective tools, anecdotal musings, and unproven (meaningless, even!) match-up numbers don't mean anything because the best Ness players have better, more numerous accomplishments than the best Lucas players, and the best Lucas players are every bit as good if not better.
Mr.-0: This isn't a results based tier list but results provide very important evidence that we can use to check our hypotheses and opinions. The tier list tells you how well you can expect to do with X character at the highest level, not how many 55-45 match-ups you can expect to have or anything else.
I used to be a guy who came to the forums arguing match-up numbers and stuff really hard because I thought that people didn't think my character was good because she had bad match-ups or something. As it turns out no one really cared what her match-ups were, she was thought to be bad because she had spotty results and as those became better peoples' opinion of her became better. I realize how stupid I was. I used to be you, and then I realized that the only thing worth talking about is how strong your character is in the current metagame. Nothing else really matters, because what matters isn't discussions on the forums but people who play the game.
Mr.-0: This isn't a results based tier list but results provide very important evidence that we can use to check our hypotheses and opinions. The tier list tells you how well you can expect to do with X character at the highest level, not how many 55-45 match-ups you can expect to have or anything else.
I used to be a guy who came to the forums arguing match-up numbers and stuff really hard because I thought that people didn't think my character was good because she had bad match-ups or something. As it turns out no one really cared what her match-ups were, she was thought to be bad because she had spotty results and as those became better peoples' opinion of her became better. I realize how stupid I was. I used to be you, and then I realized that the only thing worth talking about is how strong your character is in the current metagame. Nothing else really matters, because what matters isn't discussions on the forums but people who play the game.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
And people tend to ignore the results when they are desperate to not admit that their previous thoughts about a character's MUs and moveset don't match up with the results. (Obvious example most people know: Inui and Ike)
Works both ways.
Ok so what your saying is it is easy to prove, therfore is a fact, and not theorycraft anymore. Kinda what i was saying before also but you just discredit the people who play ness to not know what his good stages are. Thats like me telling Mk's that they are stupid for going to RC, because Delfino is clearly his best stage.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
i dont really see anything that changed
you still talk about ZSS like she's good
only person to not suck with her in the past 3958208532 years is NR because he's extremely smart, and the better you are the better you are at avoiding your characters weaknesses.
there is a lot of potential for this.....
i think pink fresh definitely is the best technically that ive played though
No, results just prove terrible theorycraft wrong.
TBH a character could have 60:40's across the board, but if that character is still outperforming those considered better, the first thing I'm going to think is that your analysis is wrong or outdated. Our analysis are opinions, not fact.
Tool analysis doesn't mean much either...because if you're going to claim that X is better than 14 characters or something, I'm assuming you know all those 14 characters just as well as X. And besides, how are you going to prove that X's tools are better? You just know?
With this on paper system, I could say (for example of course) Mario is better than we think , and all of our MUs are outdated and wrong, and he's really bottom of middle tier because of his solid tools (in other words, better than Yoshi and all other low tiers). What's the first thing you're going to say to prove that Yoshi deserves that spot more than Mario? Keep in mind that opinions of Yoshi's MUs and tools are just the yoshis' words against the marios'. So what's indisputable and can help settle this?
Yeah, that's right, Yoshi's results. Unlike MU ratios and tool opinions, you can't argue that whether or not Yoshi is doing better than Mario. It's clear as day
If you're going to put one character above another based on your opinion of their tools, you should know everything about the character you think is worse too (and you thinking their tools suck is still opinion as well, until you back it up)
I think Ryu's right when we've got differences in rep and all that, but putting results on a lesser pedastal is wrong IMO. Results back up pretty much anything you say regarding a character's viablity, which are, again, opinions until you prove it. 100% results may not be the way to go, but 50/50 between opinion and fact is iffy to me.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
You make it sound as if I think the tier list is based solely on tournament results.
When I was referring to the BBR's creation of the tier list, I specifically said "they definitely do not base the tier list ONLY on tournaments."
Tournament results are completely necessary for a tier list. Don't get me wrong, theorycraft is all well and good, and is definitely important, but results let us know how applicable and significant theorycraft really is (to an extent).
People need to start acknowledging the fact that tool analysis, matchups, stage selection and the like play a HUGE part in results. It's only logical that the people who place better in tournaments understand better these important aspects of the metagame. I'd be a fool to think that people like M2K, Ally, ADHD, DEHF, Atomsk, Anti, Nick Riddle, Rich Brown and the dozens (or even hundreds) of other top-placing Brawlers don't know much about MUs, stages, tool analysis and Brawl theory in general.
Understanding Brawl theory (and practicing) generally make you a better player. Being a better player (if you play competitively) means on average you get better tourney results. Therefore, understanding Brawl theory (and practicing) if you play competitively means you get better tourney results.
And I'm aware that results and theorycraft can contradict each other, but that doesn't change the fact that they have a correlation most of the time.
Results are more important than theorycraft, only because theorycraft (for the most part) is encompassed in results. But that's no excuse to neglect theorycraft, or results.
*phew*
And I think Ness > Lucas. When I played them, I liked Ness better. :D
Sorry, I just felt the need to rant when I saw that Mr.-0 clearly had no idea what he was talking about when he mentioned my name.
tarextherex
Smash Apprentice
Yoshi is better than Mario even on paper btw. He's like mid tier as far as MUs go(about 23rd or so, I remember he was tied with/right below Sheik). Mario would be better as well but he would be like mid-low, but still below Yoshi. Fox would be low tier lol.No, results just prove terrible theorycraft wrong.
TBH a character could have 60:40's across the board, but if that character is still outperforming those considered better, the first thing I'm going to think is that your analysis is wrong or outdated. Our analysis are opinions, not fact.
Tool analysis doesn't mean much either...because if you're going to claim that X is better than 14 characters or something, I'm assuming you know all those 14 characters just as well as X. And besides, how are you going to prove that X's tools are better? You just know?
With this on paper system, I could say (for example of course) Mario is better than we think , and all of our MUs are outdated and wrong, and he's really bottom of middle tier because of his solid tools (in other words, better than Yoshi and all other low tiers). What's the first thing you're going to say to prove that Yoshi deserves that spot more than Mario? Keep in mind that opinions of Yoshi's MUs and tools are just the yoshis' words against the marios'. So what's indisputable and can help settle this?
Yeah, that's right, Yoshi's results. Unlike MU ratios and tool opinions, you can't argue that whether or not Yoshi is doing better than Mario. It's clear as day
If you're going to put one character above another based on your opinion of their tools, you should know everything about the character you think is worse too (and you thinking their tools suck is still opinion as well, until you back it up)
I think Ryu's right when we've got differences in rep and all that, but putting results on a lesser pedastal is wrong IMO. Results back up pretty much anything you say regarding a character's viablity, which are, again, opinions until you prove it. 100% results may not be the way to go, but 50/50 between opinion and fact is iffy to me.
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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- 986
I mentioned your name because we had a two page debate about this already. I was not implying that the new tier list is going to be based on sorely on tournament results (nor was I complaining about it, since I knew it wouldn't happen) I was saying that I don't think tournament results should be so prominent in tier lists. I nowhere said the top brawl players have little knowledged of the games Mu's, stages, and Brawltheory/ stage analysis, and did not imply that theorycraft has nothing to do with tournament results. The top brawl players are the best because they know their chaarcter's MU's, they know theri characters moves, they have a lot of knowledge on Brawl, and, mostly, because they play better. They execute At's, have better spacing, timing, yada yada yada. I was replying to the guy above me who said players who value theorycraft above tournament results are bad players. I didn't mention top brawl players, or how therorycraft affects tournament results AT ALL. Thanks for randomly insulting me when you had no idea what I was talking about. Next time, I'll quote the guy, to make sure this doesn't happen.
And, theorycrafting individual characters does affect tourny results, but not as much as the skill of the players versus the number of players. The "player affect" is why I don't think tournament results should play a part of tier lists, and why I use the term highest level of humanly possible play. If every good player switched over to D3, wd see D3 win tournies. But this doesn't mean D3 is the best, and consiquently(don't think I spelled that right, dont care) should not be number one on the tier list, just because all the good players play him. If any of those good players switched to a low tier character that pwns D3, than should that character rise, just because of the players? No.
Did I use the right affect/effect above?
Edit: I'm talking to you, Infinite. Just in case you were confused again.
And, theorycrafting individual characters does affect tourny results, but not as much as the skill of the players versus the number of players. The "player affect" is why I don't think tournament results should play a part of tier lists, and why I use the term highest level of humanly possible play. If every good player switched over to D3, wd see D3 win tournies. But this doesn't mean D3 is the best, and consiquently(don't think I spelled that right, dont care) should not be number one on the tier list, just because all the good players play him. If any of those good players switched to a low tier character that pwns D3, than should that character rise, just because of the players? No.
Did I use the right affect/effect above?
Edit: I'm talking to you, Infinite. Just in case you were confused again.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
ZSS is ok. Objectively she's just barely good enough to scrape by the bottom of high tier. I don't think she works as a mid tier character because there's pretty much always one or two people getting high tier-ish results. NR's results are more indicative of a top tier character, not a high tier one.
My biggest problem is not her ground game, it's her short hop. If her short hop was lower she would be able to approach with aerials but with her SH being so high she has to fast fall them and it's stupid predictable meaning when ZSS jumps you can shield and you're pretty safe. She can't just FF to nothing and grab you either, her grab isn't useful in that situation. For some reason all the command grabs were given to characters with perfectly functional normal grabs.
There are ways around this weakness as shown by NR, ZSS isn't a hopeless character. She's just not great.
That's my opinion of ZSS, it's been a while since I dropped in and said OMG ZSS IS AWESOMESAUCE she's about exactly where I'd have her. I don't think Lucario and GaW are much better if at all.
What if the Marios disagreed? Your word vs. theirs. And I'm assuming you know everything Mario can do too, right?
IMO the only MUs that should affect the list are the ratios that the top players of each character come up with. BBR should do that if they haven't already. Actually, any on paper discussion/influence should be top players only. Or you'd have to prove that you know what you're talking about before you have input.
@0 effect is a noun, and affect is a verb. You used it correctly.
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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Thank you BSP, I have a B in english, wasn't sure :/ And, everybody's seen that PSC thread, right? Cause that totally changes my Snake views. He's 2nd place, with that. Power shield-shield drop cancel-tilt=awesome. I think that power shield canceling really has the potential to change the metagame, and the tier list. Unless, it's only useful for MK tornado stopping, whcih is still pretty cool/useful.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
@Mr.-0
"If every good player switched over to D3, wd see D3 win tournies. But this doesn't mean D3 is the best, and consiquently(don't think I spelled that right, dont care) should not be number one on the tier list, just because all the good players play him. If any of those good players switched to a low tier character that pwns D3, than should that character rise, just because of the players? No."
Again, tier lists aren't based solely on results. I know you know I know this. And as I mentioned before, the BBR probably takes outlier tournaments into consideration. I don't know why you brought this up.
And you start off that paragraph saying you "don't think tournament results should be so prominent in tier lists", and then continue to agree with every point I made about why they're so important? Let's just drop this whole "results affecting tier lists" debate, it's not going anywhere.
And I didn't mean to insult you.
So what was this "point" that could have been gotten across better by the people who responded above you?
"If every good player switched over to D3, wd see D3 win tournies. But this doesn't mean D3 is the best, and consiquently(don't think I spelled that right, dont care) should not be number one on the tier list, just because all the good players play him. If any of those good players switched to a low tier character that pwns D3, than should that character rise, just because of the players? No."
Again, tier lists aren't based solely on results. I know you know I know this. And as I mentioned before, the BBR probably takes outlier tournaments into consideration. I don't know why you brought this up.
And you start off that paragraph saying you "don't think tournament results should be so prominent in tier lists", and then continue to agree with every point I made about why they're so important? Let's just drop this whole "results affecting tier lists" debate, it's not going anywhere.
And I didn't mean to insult you.
So what was this "point" that could have been gotten across better by the people who responded above you?
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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@ infinite Posting intelligently is better than any point I could have made :/ And I already wanted to drop the whole, theorycraft vs tourny result thing, but It got brought up again. I think it'd be better if we switched over to talking about how PSC could affect the tier list, seeing as how that's pretty big. And, I brought up the D3 thing as my main reason why tourny results should not have to do with a tier list, thus DISagreeing with all your points. With that said, though, I'm droping that topic. Hopefully, it''ll switch to that PSC thing. Once again, Snake probably is gonna pwn with that. I can see MK's MU's totally droping, seeing as how his tornado spam strats will epically fail. imagine, every time M2K tornadoed Ally, he ended up getting u-tilted. I can see that particular matchup totally going in Snake's favor.
imagine, every time M2K tornadoed Ally, he ended up getting u-tilted. I can see that particular matchup totally going in Snake's favor.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yoshi has far better MU's than the Low Tiers. Even better than some Mid Tiers. His worst MU is probably lucario which isn't even a hard counter and is still very winnable. Yoshi even does pretty good against top characters, beating ICies and Wario and going close to even with Diddy, Snake, and Oli.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Yoshi doesn't beat ICs. Yoshi goes even with Wario, Snake, Oli, and potentially Diddy, although it's probably a disadvantage.
Lucario ***** Yoshi.
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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Well, M2K and alot of other good Metaknights spam the tornado in a variety of matchups, particularly the Snake matchup, though I haven't seen M2K do it since MLG colombus/orlando. Still though, it renders tornado a much worse move, seeing as how it's now very risky to approach with it, expecially against characters like Snake with broken tilts.
And delta: I've seen many signatures like that lately, where tf do u get them?
And delta: I've seen many signatures like that lately, where tf do u get them?
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yeah he does, ask pretty much any other Yoshi main >.>
And lucario isn't COMPLETE ****, we still have options, setups, and speed to position and such.
Otherwise, sure, I guess.
EDIT: @-0: They were gifts.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Keep in mind if this PSC thing became as common and practical as, say, wavedashing in melee, a good MK would just use nado on airborne opponents. Or just make a good read and nado an unsuspecting grounded opponent. But likely the former much more often.
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