Official BBR Tier List v5

[DMG]

to clarify, did you set out and vote w/ a definition of a tier list firmly in place or did you guys just go "here, vote"? i haven't been following smash lately so if there's another public topic stating the mission statement of this tier list i'm sorry and i would appreciate if someone linked it to me

We argued over what defines a tier. We had some people who wanted 6 or fewer tiers, some who wanted the current amount, and some who wanted more. In the end, we ended up voting on a few "definitions" or spreads. My suggestion was the one that most people back there preferred, so we used that.

For deciding what a tier would be, we used a combination of statistics on how we voted (Ankoku's Data you see listed in the OP) and general ideas we thought made sense. For example, Ankoku's list grouped characters together until the next character in line had roughly a 1.5 or higher "gap" from the person above him. Because of that, you had instances where PT was literally separated in his own little tier above Yoshi and below the person ahead of him. Would it make sense to put PT in his own tier because he happened to look that way on the numbers? No.

My suggestion was this: Each tier would encompass a roughly 4 point spread.
So Snake to IC's, that's like 3.5 points
Olimar to ZSS was near exact 4 points
TL to DK near 4 points
and so on and so forth

The reason I suggested a 4 point spread for tiers is because it accounted for both the regular "gaps" Ankoku's data showed, and it grouped characters with each other in a more common sense way. The fewer tiers you use, the more disproportional the leader of the tier seems over the bottom of the tier. There's a BIG difference between G&W/etc and DK, but not a really big difference between DK and someone like TL. 4 point spread took care of that AND IMO grouped the other characters really well. The only real deviation was from Yoshi to Bowser: if you wanted to encompass 4 points you could have gone all the way down to Jiggs or Samus. But then again, do Jiggs and Samus feel closer to Lucas, Yoshi, etc or do they feel closer to Zelda, Link, CF?

there seems to be an arbitrary change in definition of a "tier list" in between tier list versions 1 and 2, which set of rules are you guys using to vote?

What do you mean which set of rules? Tier list 1/2 were awhile ago, the metagame gap between 2-3 was MUCH bigger than 1-2 IMO. I wouldn't count 1-2 for significant discussion on what your definition or ruleset for determining the tier list is IMO. 3 onward will probably stand the test of time and be more accurate lists to ask questions like that.

If you are talking about ruleset specifically, all tier lists we have made have been under the assumption of SBR rules and stages. HOWEVER, especially with the current state of things, we realize and recognize that most tournaments deviate from our list noticeably (LGL and tighter/wider stage lists mainly). Some votes were strict SBR rule set in mind, hence LGL was off and current SBR stage list was used for forming opinions, other people voted with rulesets that have LGL on and maybe a more conservative list in mind.

If our ruleset was near 100% uniform at tournaments, you would see less varying opinions and fewer variables to consider because everyone would vote with that ruleset in mind and not have a "disconnect" between what also happens for tournaments.

shouldn't be too hard to find considering i've posted 4 times in the past 2 pages

I didn't see this, I just came and posted 1-2 times not looking for stuff to respond to lol. But yes, here you go

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why is Snake still #2?

Subborn people -__-

Take a look at the breakdown, very few people actually voted snake number two, he was mostly number 3. People were just split about whether diddy and falco were 2 or 4.

lol, I only got one placing wrong when I memorised the order (mario too high)

Why is Ganon in "Ganon" tier but not G in the expanded version lol?

Sheik/Zelda has no business being on a tier list imo, this is supposed to represent how good a character is and then you factor in some completely arbitrary thing like for what % of a match someone uses one or the other, it becomes extremely innacurate. The combination has existed in melee for what, 8 years and not once were they joined, yet for some reason they are joined on the brawl tier list? Explanation please. Not on the reason they were joined (Irrelevant and I wont change my mind anyway) but on the discrepancy between melee and brawl.

If for no other reason, Sheik can switch against the ICs and suddenly acquire a signifigantly better MU. Not considering that would be irresponsible.


It should be considered in melee, even if it makes only an incredibly tiny bit of difference. I've had this opinion for a while tbh.

 

[Yamato Hong]

Amazing! ^-^

Ike went up! To mid-tier status! The efforts of our Ike mains really paid off! ^-^

 

[vVv Rapture]

As a legitimate response (though still hoping for Best Tier, G Tier or Gangsta Tier for Ganondorf), I definitely love this list.

One thing that's great is that guys like Ike got a respectable push and the mid-tiers themselves feel how they should be. They should definitely be the biggest of the tiers and I like that, though I'm surprised a bit how some characters didn't move into high tier. ZSS as a high tier addition was a great move.

Fox moving up definitely was a good choice. I think it feels like a lot more than it really was because not only did Fox move up, but he did at a time when a lot of the tiers moved and merged. So, Fox moved up a bit, but that put him into what ended up being that D tier split and pushed him into C tier because of it, though in reality the push wasn't as huge as it seems to be. Overall, good choice.

I'm still curious to see how prevalent Zelda/Sheik will be and how people will judge if it's been a Zheik usage in-game for results. Does someone who goes Sheik the entire match only to switch to Zelda at the end of the last stock count as Zheik? Does this character actually get recognized as its own character on the results at all? Does it even get its own character discussions and board?

Other than that, good stuff. Worth the wait.

10wantedtoknowifpeoplesawthisandweregoingtoreply's

 

[T-block]

I'm still curious to see how prevalent Zelda/Sheik will be and how people will judge if it's been a Zheik usage in-game for results. Does someone who goes Sheik the entire match only to switch to Zelda at the end of the last stock count as Zheik? Does this character actually get recognized as its own character on the results at all? Does it even get its own character discussions and board?

The idea is that we're considering Zelda/Sheik as one character, but that doesn't mean the player has to switch. If Zelda/Sheik's best option in a matchup truly is to never touch Zelda, then that's fine - we can still call it a matchup against Zelda/Sheik. Ideally, the tier list reflects a character's position at the top of the metagame - that implies nothing about using Transform.

So to answer your questions, yes, someone going Sheik the entire match can still count as Zelda/Sheik. The player doesn't even have to use Transform at the end of the last stock. There aren't any plans to introduce a new character board or anything as far as I know... it's likely nothing will change when it comes to reporting results.

 

[C.J.]

Take a look at the breakdown, very few people actually voted snake number two, he was mostly number 3. People were just split about whether diddy and falco were 2 or 4.

You say this, and yet, what's the mode on Snake's votes? 2? Yeah....

 

[Spelt]

so, if someone went purely sheik through a whole tournament it would count towards sheik/zelda as well?

 

[Aibou]

so, if someone went purely sheik through a whole tournament it would count towards sheik/zelda as well?

Exactly what I was about to ask :s

 

[Moozle]

you realize those ranking are older than your grandma, right?
and you realize tournament ranking don't count for everything, right?

There's a list from at least relatively recently at the beginning of the OP, the title just isn't changed.

I know they don't, but they are still very important. What's the point of saying a character is 5 places higher than another character if that second character has far better results than the first?

 

[Red Arremer]

so, if someone went purely sheik through a whole tournament it would count towards sheik/zelda as well?

In Ankoku's data: Yes.
Generally: No.
If there was an opportunity for this Sheik player where switching to Zelda would be a good idea (i.e. against chaingrabbers and/or some characters to KO them more quickly), the player should probably not be considered being a Sheilda. If there was no opportunity, then I dunno. *shrug*
It's pretty obvious if a player is known to be a good Sheik or to be a good Sheik/Zelda, using both of these characters properly.

And I personally think it's good to have Sheik/Zelda and both alone, if only because removing Zelda would remove a valid Low Tier character.

 

[DMG]

There's a list from at least relatively recently at the beginning of the OP, the title just isn't changed.

I know they don't, but they are still very important. What's the point of saying a character is 5 places higher than another character if that second character has far better results than the first?

Characters at various points have had worse tournament results than Ganondorf

Do you want Ganondorf to be over them even when he had literally 5x or more better results? By that logic, if everyone played CF in tournament, he would be the best character because he has the most results. Despite the actual character being pretty meh. Yes it's an extreme situation, but there are common version of that which happen often in the metagame that show "deviance" or random popularity/lack of popularity that have NOTHING to do with the actual worth of the character. Hence that list/ranking is only 1 part of the "puzzle" in figuring out how good or bad characters are.

Exactly what I was about to ask :s

Here's my opinion on the matter:

Zelda is bad enough that she will not help Shiek improve more than 1 spot on the tier list. I think the Shiek/Zelda combo is EXACTLY 1 spot above where Shiek is. The improvement is marginal and arguably not even worth a mentioning on the list. However, if you WERE to categorize that combination as 1 character, you could take the results of pure Shiek mains, and "add" a tiny bit to that to form Zelda/Shiek. There's a bigger gap from Shiek to Sonic/Ike than there is from Shiek to Sheik/Zelda combo. How that combo got rated above Sonic and Ike, I have no idea.

 

[Deleted member]

Out of curiosity. Why did Wolf not go up based on current tournament results (like 2 Wolfs being in top 50 for tourneys). Wolfs have wone tourneys and shown up multiple times in top 8. His matchups are relatively all even albeit a few which are no worst then 40-60. He is very good vs Mk and Diddy. I think he is at least bottom C tier.

This is what I'm aching to know. Wolf should have definitely moved up. Wolves have had pretty successful placing in tournaments since the last tier list.

@Spelt, have you yourself fought Pikachu with Wolf?

 

[UberMario]

I definitely like this list more than v4, though Ike's rise still baffles me. I'm a bit surprised at Bowser's and Pit's drops and the "inclusion" of Zelda/Shiek as one character . . . . would that mean when v6 comes out Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard could possibly get seperate entries aswell? Sure they can get fatigued, but you can still play as just one of them.

EDIT: Does anyone else find it amusing [or just bizarre] that Zelda AND Shiek dropped, yet combined they are in a better position? >_>

 

[RT]

The list seems right. Pikachu might be a little too high, but shoop doop.

 

[Red Arremer]

would that mean when v6 comes out Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard could possibly get seperate entries aswell? Sure they can get fatigued, but you can still play as just one of them.

Forced switch says hi.

 

[UltimateXShadow]

Oh boy, I wasn't expecting a new list so soon, since the last one was released just shy of 7 months ago. I'm happy with the addition of the Zelda/Sheik combo, and I laugh sadistically at Ganon being in his own little tier.

 

[Deleted member]

I would also like to know why Lucario went down?

 

[napZzz]

The BBR is a joke, this list is terrible -_-

 

[vVv Rapture]

Forced switch says hi.

Even so, a player can go a majority of the time Squirtle and barely use Ivy or Zard, but still be considered using Pokemon Trainer, though clearly the biggest factor out of the three was Squirtle, fatigued or not.

Even though Zelda and Sheik don't have to switch, putting them together assumes that they have the potential to, which they do. Same goes for Pokemon Trainer. You have that potential knowing they can switch, but you'll still run into situations that Sheik will be overwhelmingly used more then Zelda and still considered Zelda/Sheik while Squirtle will be overwhelmingly used more than Ivy and Zard and still considered Pokemon Trainer.

TBH, wouldn't hurt to see where those characters are ranked individually. And, though it's probably not a good option, but technically you can fight only with Squirtle if you decide not to attack your opponent as Ivy and Zard and just switch out.

 

[DMG]

I would also like to know why Lucario went down?

In The Wind,
The Warriors Wair,
From Mars They Came,
Lucario Shall Have Hate

That is all I can say on the matter

The BBR is a joke, this list is terrible -_-

Say WHY you think the list is bad, that's much better sir.

 

[Red Arremer]

Even so, a player can go a majority of the time Squirtle and barely use Ivy or Zard, but still be considered using Pokemon Trainer, though clearly the biggest factor out of the three was Squirtle, fatigued or not.

Even though Zelda and Sheik don't have to switch, putting them together assumes that they have the potential to, which they do. Same goes for Pokemon Trainer. You have that potential knowing they can switch, but you'll still run into situations that Sheik will be overwhelmingly used more then Zelda and still considered Zelda/Sheik while Squirtle will be overwhelmingly used more than Ivy and Zard and still considered Pokemon Trainer.

TBH, wouldn't hurt to see where those characters are ranked individually. And, though it's probably not a good option, but technically you can fight only with Squirtle if you decide not to attack your opponent as Ivy and Zard and just switch out.

I understand your position. But I disagree with it.

I think that the forced switching and partly the fatigue should prevent the individual Pokemon from being on the tier list separately.

Edit: rephrased, my sentence was kinda wonky

 

[Nidtendofreak]

First of all: nice to see logic prevailed with Snake's placement. You can not argue either Falco or Diddy above him: there is nothing to support it. They don't beat him in tournament results, stage selection, or record against MK (or MU against MK for that matter). On another note: told ya all Snake would stay second because there would be too much fighting over Falco and Diddy.

Second:

Pokémon Trainer
It is the opinion of the BBR that while Pokémon Trainer has the tools to keep himself from dropping back to Low Tier, he rarely performs well in tournaments outside of Reflex. It seems to us that Reflex is a massive outlier in terms of results for his character, which data seems to support. Reflex has several times the number of placings of the second best Pokémon Trainer and is close to being the character's metagame on his own. Because of this, Pokemon Trainer rounds off the bottom of the mid tier characters.

Wait...did the BBR just...in a roundabout way...say that the core point of my arguments about PT from all the way back to when Reflex first came on the scene were correct? That Reflex was literally the only reason PT moved, and how it wasn't a good reason to move PT?

Heh....ehehe.....ehehehe.....ha.....ahah....ahahaha....AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I WIN! EAT IT!

Third:

Pit
Pit's placement in the previous tier list was mostly formed based on speculation of yet-unrealized potential, but that potential (if it exists...) still has yet to materialize in regions other than Japan, where the stage selection heavily favors him. As such, he is moving down to a place which more closely corresponds to his present abilities in the US, Europe and Australia.

YAY! They admit their obvious error finally!

Fourth:

Fox
Fox is a reasonably viable, though difficult to use, tournament character who can hold his own against several top tiers. Watching TKD's performances against other top players, many BBR members are of the opinion Fox was underrated and might still be, despite bad matchups against Sheik and Pikachu, which goes to show a few bad matchups don't completely invalidate a character. It can even be argued that most characters in the game, including top tiers, have matchups they rather wouldn't stay in against. That said, Fox' bad matchups are on the extreme side and time will tell if he can live up to his potential.

*FACEPALM*
You guys just managed to combine your PT error and Pit error at the same freaking time. Not only did you judge based solely on TKD when it came to, well, anything that actually counts as proof for Fox's rise, you also put an extreme amount of weight on "potential". AGAIN. Later you say Pit's placement was wrong because of that very reason. I mean...seriously? Come on guys. Fox's tournament results do NOT suggest he's on par with Kirby and ROB. In fact, they say he's on par with *gasp* Wolf of all characters. His MU spread is again, par with Wolf's. There is not a single scrap of evidence to say that he should be anywhere but beside Wolf on the tier list. Technically, he's just under Wolf in both of those, so he should be just under Wolf currently. Fox has ONE guy doing well (man, doesn't this sound familiar? I think the name Reflex should name a few bells), while Wolf has a couple of guys doing "Not as well as TKD, but better than the second best Fox guy".

Seriously. Release Tier List 5.1, drop Fox down to Wolf's level. Either side of Wolf is fine. It's a good list except for that glaring, painfully obvious, mistake.

Fifth:
Still don't think Ike should be that high, but the reasoning behind it was sound. I don't really have much to argue against it. :/

Sixth:
HAH! I TOLD YOU CHUEE THAT LUCAS WOULD DROP ONE, WITH BOWSER BELOW HIM AND YOSHI ABOVE HIM! I freaking called it.

 

[Chuee]

I assume you disagree with me believing that Link beats Lucas. I would like you to make the first argument as to why. At any rate my opinion is partly influenced by KirinBlaze, who from my recollection does very well in that matchup.

Uh, yeah I do.
As does like all the other Link & Lucas mains lol.
Why? because he can gimp Link. and beats him close range. and goes even at long range.
EDIT: @Niddo: and I knew that too LOL. I was just saying he wouldn't drop that much. you so smart.

 

[Y.b.M.]

Hmmmmm it seems we got some work to do Chudat

We gotta get Kirby to High Tier hehe....

 

[napZzz]

snake should've gone down and diddy/falco should have gone higher, falco in 2nd

and the random drops and bumps after that made no sense

 

[vVv Rapture]

I understand your position. But I disagree with it.

I think that the forced switching and partly the fatigue should prevent the individual Pokemon from being on the tier list separately.

Edit: rephrased, my sentence was kinda wonky

The only viable reason for not separating them, IMO, is forced switch, as I'd personally classify fatigue as as much of a state change as Lucario's Aura is.

 

[T-block]

so, if someone went purely sheik through a whole tournament it would count towards sheik/zelda as well?

Yes, it could be.

This sort of thing doesn't have a clear line.

Playing completely Sheik is still within the capacity of Sheik/Zelda. It can easily be said that this player is playing Sheik/Zelda, but chooses to limit the moves he uses (cutting out Zelda's moveset).

But when we evaluate Sheik/Zelda as a character, we may not be able to look at this player as representative of the Sheik/Zelda metagame. Unlike in Melee, it's not obvious that adding the option of using Zelda doesn't do anything. DMG thinks adding Zelda doesn't push Sheik alone past anyone. I'm of the same opinion at the moment, and many others are too. We had Zelda/Sheik just above Sheik. Others felt Zelda was worth more than that I guess.

And yes, forced switch immediately makes any comparison to PT invalid. If only fatigue existed, there might have been a case for listing each pokemon separately.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I really expected more Bowser salt than Wolf salt.

 

[Asdioh]

Why Snake still deserves 2nd place:

Spoiler

-living omfdgimdgmo long time
-hoo ha 21%
-grenades
-reliable kill options
-etc. etc.

>_>

these are not the traits of a "bad" character, as some people like to say.
People say you can exploit his landing... alright, assuming he doesn't get out of the way with B-reversed grenades and the like, but in that case, why did Ike move up on the tier list? You can destroy Ike landings much worse than Snake.

 

[DMG]

asda

For Fox: His matchups unfortunately are heavily debated. You say his matchups are on par with Wolf's, but he probably does better actually.

I don't like Fox, I think Pika, Shiek, and IC's are enough to hold him back from being "Good" ever. I also disagree in some areas with his "amazing" matchup spread he is supposed to have with the top tiers. BUT, I would easily put him over Wolf and Luigi. DK, Peach, and ROB? That's a really tough one. All 3 of those are bad in their own right, it depends on how often you think MK + 1 other counter will come into play.

Tl:dr Fox doesn't have as many negative qualities as Peach/DK/etc, while on the flip side I personally don't think he has much going for him on the positive side besides not being completely ***** by MK. That might be enough to put him right around there on the tier list.

Fox rose, but you gotta remember people around there also dropped. It's more like he went up 2 spots and people moved down 2 than him moving up 4 on his own outta nowhere

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I went by the most up to date list of Fox's MUs I could find: Wolf edged him out slightly.

There was no reason for him to go up above two characters, and the two characters that dropped should have been below Wolf as well. Right now, there is nothing really separating the two.

 

[Kewkky]

I also don't believe Fox deserves a rise. I mean, even TKD, the guy the synopsis was based around, goes MK against his harder MUs! But of course, some people have glasses so thick all they can see is their reflection.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I also don't believe Fox deserves a rise. I mean, even TKD, the guy the synopsis was based around, goes MK against his harder MUs! But of course, some people have glasses so thick all they can see is their reflection.

...TKD isn't even a solo Fox main?

*even harder facepalm than before*

Now there is even less proof than the near-nonexistant proof there was before. Seriously: version 5.1 plz? It saddens me when there is basically only one thing really wrong, but wrong by so much.

 

[DMG]

I went by the most up to date list of Fox's MUs I could find: Wolf edged him out slightly.

There was no reason for him to go up above two characters, and the two characters that dropped should have been below Wolf as well. Right now, there is nothing really separating the two.

Fox does have more notable wins over top players (somehow)

Up to date list? Where? Like I said, his matchups are heavily debated: TKD's opinion of Fox has sometimes been different than other Fox players, and people who don't play Fox also got their own opinions of him. I've seen Fox range from 5:5 to 35:65 against MK, 6:4 for Snake to 6:4 for Fox, 55:45 Fox against Wario to 4:6 Wario beating him, Falco 6:4 to 5:5, Dedede from 6:4 either characters favor, etc. People are FARRRRRRR from getting even CLOSE to agreeing on his matchups sadly.

Edit: Yeah... I did point that out a few times in the BBR when we talked about Fox. Not many people believed me apparently when I told them he DOES tend to switch off of Fox to MK for harder matchups.

I don't think Fox is great, but on the other hand it's pretty hard to tell with matchup ratios being so all over the place depending on who you ask.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Fox does have more notable wins over top players (somehow)

Up to date list? Where? Like I said, his matchups are heavily debated: TKD's opinion of Fox has sometimes been different than other Fox players, and people who don't play Fox also got their own opinions of him. I've seen Fox range from 5:5 to 35:65 against MK, 6:4 for Snake to 6:4 for Fox, 55:45 Fox against Wario to 4:6 Wario beating him, Falco 6:4 to 5:5, Dedede from 6:4 either characters favor, etc. People are FARRRRRRR from getting even CLOSE to agreeing on his matchups sadly.

Then you can't move him up based on that either: once again you have even less proof of where he should be.

Seriously: what on earth was his rise over any character based on?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lol. Kain goes all Wolf at least =P.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Yeah, why is it that PT was moved down because only Reflex uses him well, but Fox was moved up because TKD uses him well?

Also, I propose that Reflex takes over as the PT spot on the tier list and is actually on the tier list himself, as not only do I think that Reflex is really such a huge outlier at this point, but that he is actually the Pokemon Trainer himself.

 

[Spelt]

-living omfdgimdgmo long time

living to around 200% really isn't that big of deal considering MK lives to like 150-160% with good DI.

-hoo ha 21%

yeah his damage output is insane, but so are a lot of other characters.
ICs do like 20 percent easily from one attack.

-grenades

the only reason he should still be like top 5 imo.

-reliable kill options

utilt, um...? ftilt maybe, near the edge with bad di? :/

 

[Juushichi]

thank you for this image, I was looking for this! Also, something about Mario not rising high enough or something.

 

[Flayl]

I really expected more Bowser salt than Wolf salt.

None (or almost none, kingkong is on the opposite side of the spectrum) of the bowser mains think he is a mid tier character, you (by this I mean the BBR) have been getting it wrong for over two years.

I still think he's a better character than Lucas and maybe Mario but we bowser players don't have anything to prove that yet.

And honestly with how the dicussion was going in the bowser character board I was expecting you to put him in bottom tier, THEN I would let you have it.