Official BBR Tier List v5

[Laem]

Yes

Yes we are.

snakes ftilt OoS is still good tho.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You guys are Pit haters!

Nah. "Relatively insignificant" is not the same as "bad."

Pit's not a bad character; he just has -very- little representation, overall weak results, and appears to be good at most things, but not great at anything, which appears to be "not that great" in Brawl.

I can't think of any breakthroughs in his metagame. The good Pits seem to play him to the potential that most of us come to expect.

 

[Nitrix]

Pit is a "meh" character because it requires skill to use his seemingly mediocre techniques at a level where they become valuable. Arrows are easily one of the top projectiles in the entire game, but using them at their maximum potential isn't easy at all. Only after a fair amount of time is invested in them, do they begin to shine. This is the same for alot of Pit's attributes.

Pit has trouble killing, but this is more of an obstacle to be overcome then it is a serious hindrance. Saving smashes and learning how to land B-Air usually helps this. The only thing currently holding Pit back in tournaments is the swarms of MK's. Until he learns to deal with that match-up, then a secondary is pretty much essential.

You guys are Pit haters!

lol this isn't the way to make people think Pit is a good character

 

[Die !]

Pit is a "meh" character because it requires skill to use his seemingly mediocre techniques at a level where they become valuable. Arrows are easily one of the top projectiles in the entire game, but using them at their maximum potential isn't easy at all. Only after a fair amount of time is invested in them, do they begin to shine. This is the same for alot of Pit's attributes.

Pit has trouble killing, but this is more of an obstacle to be overcome then it is a serious hindrance. Saving smashes and learning how to land B-Air usually helps this. The only thing currently holding Pit back in tournaments is the swarms of MK's. Until he learns to deal with that match-up, then a secondary is pretty much essential.





lol this isn't the way to make people think Pit is a good character

No need to beat around the bush, Pit aint all that great and thats all there is to it

Also MK aint the only thing holding Pit back

 

[Orion*]

No. I'm sorry, but him thinking 6:4 is a hard counter... explains ALL of his ramblings and bad matchup labeling. I've seen him put 65:35 and 6:4 matchups as 55:45... "Oh yeah it's only a soft counter".

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Originally Posted by Tesh

*Orion


Are you talking about WGF? Thats not what happened at all. Rich brown got his olimar *****, then he went pika and his pika got ***** too, then he went back to olimar for the loss. It was 3/5 and he did worse with pika than he did with olimar game 3.

then doctor mario guy lied to me on skype :'( or maybe vex idk- my B on that one
]

Frame 13?
Even with JC Usmash OoS?
It never seemed that slow to me ;_;

LOOOOL me either, it always looks fast as hell

I think Wario can hit with the back part of Dsmash by that time

Rofl, you have been making me laugh in this thread to much recently

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf vs. MK is really kinda fun. ::shrug::

What characters, if any, are held back specifically because of MK?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ike, toon link, and apparently pit.

also ddd and rob.

 

[Spelt]

Pit is one of those marth/pikachu characters, where they're mediocre in most things and require lots of skill to use.

To be good in Brawl you need to be AWESOME at one or two things, and suck equally as much in other aspects. Like ice climbers or snake.

Being completely serious but this post just wreaks of troll.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Pit is good at being an irritant and nothing else.

 

[Juushichi]

Wolf vs. MK is really kinda fun. ::shrug::

What characters, if any, are held back specifically because of MK?

Peach. Though apparently, Olimar's are giving some Peaches the work too. Maybe GnW, but I don't know who else the 2D guy loses to.

 

[Spelt]

As far as I know, falco vs peach is worse than mk vs peach.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

LOL @ GW being only held back by MK. Have you seen what ICs and Diddy Kong do to that character? It's ... ugly.

 

[Espy Rose]

Ironically enough, Sonic's probably so successful BECAUSE Meta Knight exists.

PROBABLY. There's definitely the chance that I'm wrong. I mean, no Meta Knights could mean more Dededes...
...wait, but then there could be more Falcos to counteract that...and more Pikachus for that...and more Marths...and more mid tier...and...oh god...

...more Lucarios...

...oh god.

 

[ShadowLink84]

FOW circumvents Ness' flaws in the EXACT SAME WAY YOU DO TO PT. Its called 'not being **** at brawl'. You seem to know a lot about that, why is it so hard to believe that another person is capable of not being **** at brawl?

Player=/=Character.
Ness just is not a good character.

By your logic, we can never say ANY character is bad outside of a handful of characters who lack any sort of high level results, because there will ALWAYS be some occasion where a high level player, lose to another high level player using an inferior character.

I find it funny how people are making note of Marth getting undeserved hype, but meanwhile are hyping Ness. =3

 

[Spelt]

...more Lucarios...

...oh god.

I am now anti-ban.

 

[Espy Rose]

To hell with that character. Should be put in Tekken 6 where it belongs.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Peach. Though apparently, Olimar's are giving some Peaches the work too. Maybe GnW, but I don't know who else the 2D guy loses to.

You are correct. It can be either way with them. Mr. Game & Watch I would say Marth. Though don't fully quote on this. Not counting Meta Knight of course.

 

[Damix91]

Pit is good at being an irritant and nothing else.

And yet even after a 5 place drop we're still higher than Peach on the tier list. She must be garbage then.

 

[Luigi player]

Ironically enough, Sonic's probably so successful BECAUSE Meta Knight exists.

PROBABLY. There's definitely the chance that I'm wrong. I mean, no Meta Knights could mean more Dededes...
...wait, but then there could be more Falcos to counteract that...and more Pikachus for that...and more Marths...and more mid tier...and...oh god...

...more Lucarios...

...oh god.

It would just mean "tier*****s" would switch to Diddy Kong and we'd have the same thing with him. Then everyone would want Diddy banned and then the game is ONLY about counterpicking. o_0

 

[ShadowLink84]

wow really LOL, lets throw in shadowlinks theorys while youre in there

Funny thing is I've been right almost every single time.

 

[Spelt]

And yet even after a 5 place drop we're still higher than Peach on the tier list. She must be garbage then.

Dat salt.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

And yet even after a 5 place drop we're still higher than Peach on the tier list. She must be garbage then.

Regardless where Pit is on the list it wouldn't change my opinion he's an irritant.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It would just mean "tier*****s" would switch to Diddy Kong and we'd have the same thing with him. Then everyone would want Diddy banned and then the game is ONLY about counterpicking. o_0

Except, Diddy has clear weaknesses and even matchups.

 

[Damix91]

Regardless where Pit is on the list it wouldn't change my opinion he's an irritant.

Ice Climbers are an irritant. Olimar is an irritant. My objection was obviously with the whole phrase an 'irritant and nothing more.'

 

[Browny]

Player=/=Character.
Ness just is not a good character.

By your logic, we can never say ANY character is bad outside of a handful of characters who lack any sort of high level results, because there will ALWAYS be some occasion where a high level player, lose to another high level player using an inferior character.

I find it funny how people are making note of Marth getting undeserved hype, but meanwhile are hyping Ness. =3

no.

My logic is; Work with what you know and can prove, as oppose to what you think you should have.

Examine D tier
Luigi Wolf Z/S Sonic Ike Sheik Ness PT

Why even waste a second of your existance telling me which of these characters has better 'tools' and is more viable because you dont have a hope in the world of possibly being able to prove that. Point in case, if I asked you to rate these characters relative to each other every 3 months, it would change almost every single time. Majority of those times would have these characters not even in the same tier. So instead of trying to rate the characters on how you think they should perform, lets look at what we know and that hopefully everyone can agree on.

Rate these characters in order of how prevelant and dangerous they have been in big tournaments in the last 6 months. I think it looks something like

Sonic Ike Wolf Ness Luigi PT Z/S

Its kind of easy to quantify this when you think of how many times a solo main of those characters has placed high. Ike could probably swap with wolf but I think its pretty close. It should be easy for the BBR to quantify such a statistic.

Now before you say OMG RESULTS CANT BE EVERYTHING, this isnt the final step. After this outline has been establised, I would suggest the BBR observe each character and exactly how they managed these placings. Now you can look at how many top level mains a characters has, who the top ike beat that top sonic couldnt etc and attempt to rate them from there. Characters could move quite a bit but the point is, they will be affected less by theory since the results were done first.

The order is important... If you work straight off biased theorycraft and opinions to form the initial outline of the list, its going to be garbage since the first iteration is always the strongest and will by far have the most weight overall. There can be no argument to this fact, it has been proven in every tier list so far. Why do you put more weight on opinions which are skewed, when the first iteration could go off proof, and THEN apply the theory and move characters based on opinions?

 

[Chuee]

Pits good at being a *****.
I mean I've seen a Masashi match where there was 30 seconds left when the match ended.
and thats in a 10 minute ruleset ._.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It would just mean "tier*****s" would switch to Diddy Kong and we'd have the same thing with him. Then everyone would want Diddy banned and then the game is ONLY about counterpicking. o_0

I hope youre joking. every time i see this I want impregnate that persons girlfirend and than punch her in the stomach.


if mk got banned, everybody that mained mk would either fall back to snake, diddy falco and marth. and everybody that played mk would just go back to the character they mained before they dropped them for mk.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Funny thing is I've been right almost every single time.

Obviously

Except, Diddy has clear weaknesses and even matchups.

I could argue the same about MK but I think it's pointless. People only see what they want to see.

Edit: If MK got banned ... Diddy would clearly be the #1 choice. Choosing Marth when one of Diddy Kong's / ICs worst match-up is removed is not a good idea.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

With Meta Knight gone, a lot of characters who are normally very rare due to a terrible matchup with Meta Knight will be able to fight Diddy Kong rather well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

With Meta Knight gone, a lot of characters who are normally very rare due to a terrible matchup with Meta Knight will be able to fight Diddy Kong rather well.

Surely you can't be talking about Luigi and Peach because Diddy has a sound advantage vs both. The same holds true for DDD and Marth [who isn't "terrible" vs MK to begin with]. I can't think of any character who is unviable only because of MK but does fine vs Diddy Kong at the same time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

rob.

ike.

toon link.

all 3 get horribly reamed by mk but do surprisingly well vs diddy.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

rob.

ike.

toon link.

all 3 get horribly reamed by mk but do surprisingly well vs diddy.

ROB has an unwinnable match-up vs DDD and a very hard time against Falco, Toon Link and Lucario too. Banning MK doesn't make him viable. Actually, his recent results - even though there are only few - against MK don't seem to be as horrible a you make it sound.

Ike is useless and banning MK won't change that. He won't suddenly become viable.

You could be right about Toon Link I guess but idk. It's one character *shrug*

 

[Damix91]

I personally think part of the reason Diddy does so well is because MK helps deal with some of his worse of matchups, so that he doesn't encounter them as often. I think many characters who can challenge him on even or gretaer terms Marth/Wario/Kirby are held back by the Mk matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Surely you can't be talking about Luigi and Peach because Diddy has a sound advantage vs both. The same holds true for DDD and Marth [who isn't "terrible" vs MK to begin with]. I can't think of any character who is unviable only because of MK but does fine vs Diddy Kong at the same time.

I was under the impression that Peach did alright.

Squirtle does rather well against Diddy Kong, and it's not like Diddy can severely punish you for switching.

Does Toon Link do alright? Ice Climbers do well, I believe.

Wario. ROB. Certainly a fair amount.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I was under the impression that Peach did alright.

Squirtle does rather well against Diddy Kong, and it's not like Diddy can severely punish you for switching.

Does Toon Link do alright? Ice Climbers do well, I believe.

Wario. ROB. Certainly a fair amount.

Squirtle is not an individual character. Correct me if I'm wrong but Diddy has the advantage over Pokemon Trainer, correct? And I'm sure MK is not the only reason PT isn't a good character.

Ice Climbers are already viable with MK in the game, removing him might buff them but that's all. The same holds true for Wario but I hear he has trouble against other characters anyway [DDD, Falco, Marth, Peach - depending on who you ask]. You imply that MK in the game makes ICs and Wario unviable which simply isn't the case and ultimately not provable.

I covered ROB already. I consider TL the exception.

@Daimix

Diddy beats Marth and Kirby ...

 

[da K.I.D.]

ROB has an unwinnable match-up vs DDD and a very hard time against Falco, Toon Link and Lucario too. Banning MK doesn't make him viable. Actually, his recent results - even though there are only few - against MK don't seem to be as horrible a you make it sound.

Ike is useless and banning MK won't change that. He won't suddenly become viable.

You could be right about Toon Link I guess but idk. It's one character *shrug*

You are mixing issues here.

You did not ask, 'who would be viable with out mk in the metagame'

you asked 'what characters lose really bad to mk yet do well vs diddy'

i answered the question you proposed. Dont try to change the issue.

If you would like to ask, 'what new characters would be viable with out mk in the metagame, feel free to ask and I will answer that question specifically for you

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You did not ask, 'who would be viable with out mk in the metagame'

you asked 'what characters lose really bad to mk yet do well vs diddy'

I can't think of any character who is unviable only because of MK but does fine vs Diddy Kong at the same time.

No, I did certainly not ask that...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Edit: Forget it Browny.

Obviously

Feel free to show where I have been wrong.

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres also the fact that a lot of characters arent viable not solely because of metaknight, but with him gone their viability will increase a lot.

ike.

san is the best ike, but on his best day he could still lose to any random mk out there. take mk out of the picture. San may still lose to DDD mains like atomsk and coney. but you will have to be top level even with ddd to beat him. so in that sence, even though ike will still have other bad matchups, ikes viability increases dramatically with out mk in the picture.

I feel many other characters are in this same situation.

So saying mk by himself has to invalidate characters is only looking at a very small part of the entire problem.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle is not an individual character. Correct me if I'm wrong but Diddy has the advantage over Pokemon Trainer, correct? And I'm sure MK is not the only reason PT isn't a good character.

Diddy may have a slight advantage overall, yeah. Potential 45-55 is fine, I think. Squirtle may have a slight advantage by himself.