Official BBR Tier List v5

[TheReflexWonder]

I suppose it takes a certain amount of understanding of how characters function in this game when their players know all of the options available to them.

I have my reasons for thinking that Ness doesn't have a great deal of potential as a standalone character in Singles, and unless I am shown that I don't understand the game as well as some of you (as in, how Ness can effectively circumvent the character's flaws), my opinions won't be swayed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This just in: every character in the game is Falco/MK

I guess DDD is now bottom tier?

whoopdee-****ing-doo A ness got ***** by the #1 and potentially top 3 player in the entire country. Heres something for you; WHY THE HELL WASNT EVERY OTHER 'GOOD' PLAYER AT THAT TOURNAMENT ABLE TO DO THE SAME THING? Inbe4 FOW is a better player. I counter that argument with Ness is a good character. We both have 0 quantifiable proof coz theres WAYYYY too many variables to consider, so dont even waste your time trying to say that.

If it took some of the best players in the entire country to expose a characters weakness, why doesnt that horrid argument apply to like EVERY OTHER CHARACTER that mk2/dehf routinely destroy whenever they come across them?

This isnt about how good/bad ness is as a character, its about how impossible it is for characters to break out of their 08/09 stereotypes of bad characters and the same in reverse when people refuse to accept that good characters actually suck now. Ness is still a highly limited character ok thats fine. Now how about the characters above him who are ASSUMED not to be limited in 08/09, but are completely unviable in 2010/2011, yet maintain their position above him?

It's not about stereotyping...

If you don't mind my asking, what characters do you feel were assumed not to be limited in the past, but are completely unviable in 2010/11?

EDIT: Curses, double post. My mistake.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I suppose it takes a certain amount of understanding of how characters function in this game when their players know all of the options available to them.

I have my reasons for thinking that Ness doesn't have a great deal of potential as a standalone character in Singles, and unless I am shown that I don't understand the game as well as some of you (as in, how Ness can effectively circumvent the character's flaws), my opinions won't be swayed.

Reflex, I love you, but this is maybe the worst post I've ever seen.

 

[-Mars-]

I suppose it takes a certain amount of understanding of how characters function in this game when their players know all of the options available to them.

I have my reasons for thinking that Ness doesn't have a great deal of potential as a standalone character in Singles, and unless I am shown that I don't understand the game as well as some of you (as in, how Ness can effectively circumvent the character's flaws), my opinions won't be swayed.

This is surprising to me coming from someone who in the past has always preached mobility and movement being some of the best attributes in this game. Doesn't ness fit that criteria?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Uhh, Ness is just OK, but it's not just because of this tournament, although it definitely helps. And this isn't even about Ness. It's about people who still think characters like Ike and Ness are bad when they outplace characters like Wario (LOL) at high-level events without breaking a sweat and lose only to amazing players like DEHF and M2K.

You know, it's **** like this that makes me hate bringing tournament results into any talk of a tier list.

We get people who ride results saying they are the ultimate proof without actually thinking about the character in question.

Ness was able to place, we get that. However in retrospect with the cast that says nothing about how good that character is. Ness has a nice Fair, killer Bthrow, etc. he gets grab released, outside of his fair has range issues, killing can be problematic on some characters. Don't get me wrong, I still think FOW, Shaky, etc deserve the praise for placing with Ness, but at one point we have to be realistic when looking at the character in repsect to the rest of the cast.

Some characters are more popular than others, some are much easier to learn and as a result have less players, sometimes players place because they are better and can use a character even if they aren't the best in the game for one reason or another. Results are not the end be all of discussion. They are results to be interpret in the grand scene over a time span.

Sometimes there is theory-craft which is proven wrong, Sonic, then there are others than is shown to work against the character, Many, many low tiers.

 

[Browny]

Well lets see...

Peach
Marth
Pit
Sheik
Wario

Have all had extended underserved hype imo. They almost never live up to their expectations and for every time they do, characters below them have done it twice or more. But this hype just WILL NOT DIE.

I have my reasons for thinking that Ness doesn't have a great deal of potential as a standalone character in Singles, and unless I am shown that I don't understand the game as well as some of you (as in, how Ness can effectively circumvent the character's flaws), my opinions won't be swayed.

LMAO you of all people saying this...

FOW circumvents Ness' flaws in the EXACT SAME WAY YOU DO TO PT. Its called 'not being **** at brawl'. You seem to know a lot about that, why is it so hard to believe that another person is capable of not being **** at brawl?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, I love you, but this is maybe the worst post I've ever seen.

There are a lot of variables to consider, but I feel like I have a strong enough understanding of the game to know that there are certain constants that just limit each character and would take a massive glitch/AT/ruleset change to get around. Ness has strong flaws that severely limit him in competitive play. I feel that some of the big names FOW beat did not understand how to abuse them to the fullest.

You can call it arrogance, but I have a lot of confidence in my knowledge of the game.

 

[Death Arcana]

Those characters listed have a metagame that has slowed or just stopped

 

[-Mars-]

Well lets see...

Peach
Marth
Pit
Sheik
Wario

Have all had extended underserved hype imo. They almost never live up to their expectations and for every time they do, characters below them have done it twice or more. But this hype just WILL NOT DIE.


LMAO you of all people saying this...

Ness circumvents his flaws in the EXACT SAME WAY YOU DO TO PT. Its called 'not being **** at brawl'. You seem to know a lot about that, why is it so hard to believe that another person is capable of not being **** at brawl?

Sheik has never received undeserved hype or any hype at all as a matter of fact. She's hovered around the exact same spot since Brawl came out lol. Ftilt alone probably keeps her above most of low tier.

 

[DMG]

You keep Wario in top tier because you can look at the character and determine he's top tier quality. You keep Ness low on the list because you can look at the character and determine he's not that great. Unless you are saying that Ness is such a complex character, that the only way to accurately determine how good he is, is by looking at his tournament results? Not matches, not character tools, but his number placement at the tournament?


The least informative pieces of information to analyze are who was beaten, and what his placement was. It doesn't tell you how he beat them/how they lost, what he did during the matches with his character, how/if he overcame the flaws of his character, the effect of stages in all of this, nothing.


I can't tell you how Havok or Tyrant lost to FOW. Whether he was a better player, whether they had an off day, whether he legitimately got over his character weaknesses through sheer brilliance, I can't tell you squat because I didn't see the matches. What I CAN tell you is that when Larry and M2K played him, they didn't just beat him by being "So damn good", they beat him through the course of the match by abusing noticeable flaws that Ness has. There was plenty of grab releasing, plenty of edge guarding, plenty of range and speed attack abuses, etc.


Now, if you want to call Ness GOOD because he placed 3rd and beat very good players to do so, go ahead. I'm not gonna stop calling Ness BAD after seeing the characters flaws being able to be abused at a level sufficient to label him a bad character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You know based on the tournament results logic, I'm inclined to think Lucario should be in D tier if we went by that logic.

Outside of Zucco and Trela, who places well with him?

Let me stress this, placing poorly is a reason to take a second look, but it should be an end be all evidence for a character being bad and vice versa.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is surprising to me coming from someone who in the past has always preached mobility and movement being some of the best attributes in this game. Doesn't ness fit that criteria?

And I still do. I maintain that his mobility and spacing tactics both do well in a lot of matchups (imagine if Peach were a little faster in the air and had more than a couple solid KO moves), but that in more than a few matchups, it just doesn't do. Some characters can get in without too much trouble against Ness; some characters can do really, really mean things to him from a grab; some characters have both of those traits, turning them into unnecessarily difficult matchups.

There's more to it than that, but as far as mobility goes, I put emphasis on its being a prerequisite for being a USABLE character. I don't think Luigi is viable as a standalone character in Singles for that reason. Being usable and being good are two entirely different things.

Off the top of my head: ROB, Kirby, Game & Watch, King Dedede (no really mid tier please), Luigi, Wolf, Pit, Peach? Others? Are any of these characters performing as well as Ness in tourney? (NO I didn't say that Ness should necessarily jump above all of them, but it's like it isn't even being considered lol)

ROB has really good fundamentals, but is still a little overrated, I feel.
Kirby has some neat thing going for him and solid fundamentals but is still a little overrated, I feel.
Game and Watch has some novel things going for him, some of which are extremes, but he's wayyyyyy too limited as a character, and certainly overrated.
King Dedede has been doing fine enough, I think...
I already addressed Luigi earlier.
I think Peach might be at the cusp of viability; her mobility is rather bad.

As far as tournament results go, I have no idea, really. I'm not arguing about tier list placement--I'm arguing about potential and ability of the characters.

Well lets see...

Peach
Marth
Pit
Sheik
Wario

Have all had extended underserved hype imo. They almost never live up to their expectations and for every time they do, characters below them have done it twice or more. But this hype just WILL NOT DIE.

Ness circumvents his flaws in the EXACT SAME WAY YOU DO TO PT. Its called 'not being **** at brawl'. You seem to know a lot about that, why is it so hard to believe that another person is capable of not being **** at brawl?

I already addressed Peach.
Marth...is doing fine...?
The higher tier within Brawl is almost exclusively of characters with extremes. Pit doesn't really meet that criteria, and can't seem to compete incredibly well as a result. He's a little underdeveloped, maybe. I dunno.
I think Sheik players just need to get on abusing their good stuff. Underrated, but underplayed, too.
I can't really speak on Wario, since I don't keep up with most big name players, so I couldn't tell you who plays him today. If anything, you should look forward to me owning with him from now on.

It's not about being "not **** at Brawl;" I outplayed a bunch of people and a lot of people didn't even come close to abusing me to the fullest. If every Meta Knight just camped my Pokémon Trainer correctly when I played them (which, if you know what you're doing, isn't very hard), I wouldn't have gotten any decent placing out of my region.

 

[Browny]

SFP and Browny present, the official IRC SSBB Tier list version 1.0, based on the USA metagame as of 25th January 2011.

TOP
S: MK

HIGH
A: Diddy Falco Snake Pikachu Olimar
B: IC’s Wario ZSS Lucario Marth Fox

MID
C: Sonic DDD TL G&W Kirby DK
D: Ike Ness Wolf ROB Peach Pit Luigi Yoshi

LOW
E: Z/S PT Lucas Sheik Mario Bowser
F: Falcon Link Samus Jigglypuff Zelda

BOTTOM
G: Ganon

This tier list is a result of a multi-variable weighted analysis of the current metagame, placing extra emphasis on results in recent times. All things are considered from practical theorycraft, results, matchups, who beat who and everything in-between.

The process originated by discarding all outdated beliefs and starting fresh, throwing out our first opinions on the tier list. This stage had slightly more weight as it is likely our opinions today are slightly more relevant as we recall only recent shifts in the metagame. In the absence of quantifiable data such as in the case of low tiers, we opted for a least-squared approach in comparing the matchup spread vs tournament results via the relevant thread in tactical. Due to the subjective nature of matchup spreads, when they fell outside the IQR, the results only were used as the default position.

With the general outline of the tier list set, the next stage involved deep discussions into characters viability in 2 phases, their viability in a typical tournament setting (hence real results) and their viability in an ideal setting where the enemy actively counterpicks the worst stages for said character and is aware of the correct playstyle. Since the ideal scenario rarely exists and people will counterpick characters/stages they ideally shouldn’t have, less weight was placed on this aspect. An ‘Weighted Viability Number’ (WVN) was applied to each character independent of all others and then the characters were listed in order, and discussed with the characters immediately next to one another to evaluate discrepancies.

This phase was discussed amongst members of the official voting committee and character panels until a compromise was met for each character. This represented the final stage of the ordering of characters, with all that remaining the ordering of the tiers. Through a Binomial Probability Formula, the likelihood of a character placing in a tournament relative to all characters above under ideal conditions was iterated until a 5% margin of error was reached and the cut-off was set when a group of characters was 15% less likely to place than the group above them.

To talk with the brains behind this official tier list, visit the #lucario and #zss IRC channels :>

 

[-LzR-]

That list is quite interesting, but smells like like Pika, Olimar and Sonic hype much?

 

[DMG]

That list would be good, if Ness and Ike were better than characters like ROB, and if Pikachu and Olimar weren't worse than characters like Marth and Wario.


Also based on your list, IC's would be noticeably lower because they've nearly fallen off the earth results wise. Marth would be higher seeing how well Mike has done. Fox would need to be over ZSS, as Fox mains have more notable wins over top players and have done extremely well at tournaments they show up to. Dedede should also be under Sonic if you take into consideration how well they did at MLG and at subsequent tournaments, while Dedede has long been stagnating as a character.

I mean I get what you're trying to do, but to be fair you know I'm gonna have to criticize that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hey Marth mains stop saying you're 6/4 with the whole cast and then like losing to Peach and getting 17th thanks

 

[DMG]

Because ZSS has a good matchup on Diddy and can't lose to anything besides MK?

I'd take Marth's matchup spread over her's anyday. He's a better character with better tools, but okie dokie let's put her in front above him. I mean by that logic of Marth having bad placements means he's worse, then why was he not put under Fox? Fox definitely has better placements lately than him.

 

[_Kain_]

He doesn't even follow his own criteria

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dude ZSS loses to MK, slightly, and also loses to Falco, and like, Peach, and Sheik, and Pikachu and slightly to several other random bad/good characters. YOUR MOVE.

 

[DMG]

Marth DOESN'T lose to Peach, Shiek, Pikachu, and several other bad/good characters. Because he's a better character.

 

[Browny]

Marth doesnt lose to those characters while simultaneously losing to those characters.

 

[_Kain_]

Marth doesnt lose to those characters while simultaneously losing to those characters.

Learn to tell when someone gets outplayed. Something alot of you don't seem to get when Mid/Low tiers do good

 

[DMG]

Consistently? Or are you talking about MLG where Mike played Esam, so automatically Pika is not only better but has a great matchup against Marth?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth doesnt lose to those characters while simultaneously losing to those characters.

It's almost as though Smashboards says that Marth wins against characters he somehow is incapable of beating at tournaments.

Also in our list we mostly just shoved everyone into tiers and we don't really care of Fox is better than Marth or whatever, although we both think Marth is mad overrated and his mains should stop like, losing to Peach and getting 17th and going on Smashboards and claiming to be #2 in the game, that'd be swell.

 

[DMG]

Because seeing "Ness - 3rd place" tells you exactly how he won, or what he did with his character that was so good. Placements, not analyzing matches or character tools, tells you everything!

 

[_Kain_]

Because seeing "Ness - 3rd place" tells you exactly how he won, or what he did with his character that was so good. Placements, not analyzing matches or character tools, tells you everything!

No Marth lost to a Peach therefore the MU is now 60-40 for Peach. She goes up, Marth goes down. Tournament placings= Tier placings

 

[Browny]

In a serious reply to DMG though, I argued against Sonic being above DDD because DDD has been a better performer for a VERY VERY long time, hes been winning tournaments since 08 and is still doing that today. Sonic just isnt doing that. I cant quanitfy regional bias so I wont even bother however I'm open to the idea that Sonic will eventually be higher than DDD in the future but just not today. Maybe tomorrow

Also as for IC's, their tournament performance has been quite bad recently but I think its fair to say the reason for that is because people actively counterpick horrid stages/character and camp their ***** off. This is the ideal situation, thus the only one we should consider. HOWEVER this 'ideal' situation must be applied across the board. Rarely will you see players instantly counterpick the worst characters + stages to deal with them like they do to the IC's and camp for 8 minutes, I dont recall seeing any matches recently where the MK played against the other character wtih such an extreme dedication to never get hit. I dont think its entirely fair to knock down IC's because the enemy rarely employs such a dedicated camping strategy vs other characters. You know what im talking about, m2k VS gnes etc. Its so rare, but so powerful when it happens, you wouldnt knock diddy down because of that.

 

[DMG]

I thought we weren't counting 08 analysis of characters, good or bad? I mean there was definitely a time where people thought Snake was the best in the game because of how well he was doing at the time. If you went off that, Snake would definitely be higher on your list.


Sonic is doing well recently. REALLY well. Dedede almost isn't comparable to Sonic if you think about it: CO18 at MLG had to play MJG and had a rough time with that, while X and Espy STEAM ROLLED through Metaknight players like they were nothing. X had a similar performance at WGF, getting 5th there as well.


Few people main Dedede at this point in Brawl, because it's become evident that the character's linearity is an issue, and people are negating his strong points by camping hard. Most Dedede mains since Brawl, have quit or moved on to better characters. When's the last time you heard Atomsk or Seibrik or even Lain really using Dedede as a main option in tournament?


Sonic has done better and better as time has gone on. He's achieved a level of consistent or near consistent results in recent times that I think definitely beats that of Dedede's results. If placings and "realistic" tournament settings are factored heavily in your list, that would all point to Sonic being higher than Dedede.

 

[Pikabunz]

Pikachu is a horrible character.

 

[DMG]

Pikachu is a horrible character.

But Esam!

The end.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont quite understand the skepticism for pika and olimar. They have solid character builds and nothing particularly abusable that is out of line with those above them (maybe even less so), if the results should indicate a bump then why do people moan about it?

By the way, moving to SoCal soon, Myrtle Beach specifically, please tell me I wont be the only smasher in that area.

I dont see that place anywhere. In any case look here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=289631

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi is a horrible character.

 

[Browny]

.....................

Fine (DMG gets influence coz he visits the IRC )

 

[Pikabunz]

I beat ESAM. It was easy.


Seriously though, I think ESAM gets these big wins because people don't know the Pikachu MU.

 

[Shaya]

For the sake of w/e, most Marths been thinking Peach is pretty close to even for a while.
It's probably slightly marth's favour, but that's all.

 

[Exceladon City]

Man, DMG made this thread not suck.

 

[Laem]

Why can't the next tierlist be completely different from the previous one?
Is it because we would admit we were all *******es a year ago(which is, imo, a fair hypothesis)?
To be fair, dmg and moreso reflex, perception is illusion and you don't know what the future's gonna hold. Results = objective; looking at tools is way less objective, but admittedly not entirely subjective.

 

[BSP]

That list is quite interesting, but smells like like Pika, Olimar and Sonic hype much?

Don't know about the first two, but Sonic is really trouncing mid tier as of late with performance.

Feel free to disagree with me anyone, but Sonic should be right next to Tink pretty soon. Top 5, Top 8, and Top 5 again in 130+ entrant tournaments. Should be obvious that he's better than most of mid tier.

 

[-LzR-]

I mean I believe Sonic is a viable character, but still not that good, yet...

 

[Juushichi]

I'm not going to lie. I haven't heard **** from Marth outside of Europe and really early MLG. Unless you count Havok pooping on Ally that one time.

I know that in spite of his MU spread, Marth is almost unviable because of the MK matchup and have seen it in person a handful of times.

But where does that come into play? It should in this tier list, I imagine. If MK was banned, I'm sure we'd see all kinds of Marth's who shuts down a lot of the cast by himself, but I mean this isn't Europe. Shouldn't that matter too?

Also, I'd claim that Coney's surpassed everyone you've mentioned for DeDeDe, though sans-LGL was shown still not to be viable, using the same type of reasoning from the Ness argument.