Official BBR Tier List v5

[Juushichi]

Since when in the hell was R.O.B. vs D3 unwinnable?

In fact, everyone not named Falco that you mentioned is a close-ish matchup for R.O.B.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So your argument is ... that one player of a bad character has trouble with MK. And that you "feel many other characters are in the same situation". That's mad convincing.

And you're switching subjects now - the question wasn't whether MK should be banned or not [he shouldn't] but how much validity the core of LP's statement has: "If MK is banned, most people will switch to Diddy Kong" [let's ignore the "people will want Diddy banned" for now]. I believe this will be the case because the characters who are supposedly "not so bad" against Diddy either still aren't viable [ROB, Ike] or aren't inviable to begin with [ICs, Wario]. Unless you expect a sudden Toon Link hype in the event that MK is banned you'd have no logical reason to assume Diddy will NOT be mercilessly overplayed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

everybody can beat diddy tho.

so people wouldnt have an issue playing their mains against diddy.

if diddy counter picks tkd to rainbowcruise/brinstar, is he gonna switch off of fox?
no

also, theres only lik 4 people in the world that LIKE playing diddy dittos. so people will play other characters based on that alone.

 

[Die !]

So your argument is ... that one player of a bad character has trouble with MK. And that you "feel many other characters are in the same situation". That's mad convincing.

And you're switching subjects now - the question wasn't whether MK should be banned or not [he shouldn't] but how much validity the core of LP's statement has: "If MK is banned, most people will switch to Diddy Kong" [let's ignore the "people will want Diddy banned" for now]. I believe this will be the case because the characters who are supposedly "not so bad" against Diddy either still aren't viable [ROB, Ike] or aren't inviable to begin with [ICs, Wario]. Unless you expect a sudden Toon Link hype in the event that MK is banned you'd have no logical reason to assume Diddy will NOT be mercilessly overplayed.

Metaknight should defo be banned

When a char is being played nearly 3 times as more played as everyone else in the game and then everyone and there mothers has a pocket MK, then there is a problem.

Now please present your argument why MK should not be banned

And don't say "oh people do not want him banned" because 6/10 people do want him banned


Oh and don't post that "Learn the Match Up" Because learning the match up has not stoped all the Mk from winning at all.

He is becoming more and more over played every day , and he has several features some deem broken.

Also if MK did get banned, MK mains would not instantly switch to diddy because Diddy and MK do not feel the same nor do they play the same, more then likely they'd go to marth someone who at least feels slightly similar.

 

[etecoon]

lol people still thinking MK will ever be banned

you already failed 4 times, isn't it time to drop it?

 

[Die !]

lol people still thinking MK will ever be banned

you already failed 4 times, isn't it time to drop it?

No one stated that he would be banned

There is a huge diff. between would and should

Learn it.

 

[etecoon]

if you accept that it will never happen then what's the point in lamenting it? you're wasting your energy

 

[~ Gheb ~]

everybody can beat diddy tho.

No.

if diddy counter picks tkd to rainbowcruise/brinstar, is he gonna switch off of fox?
no

Broken stages need to be banned, with or without MK.

also, theres only lik 4 people in the world that LIKE playing diddy dittos. so people will play other characters based on that alone.

Uhm... first of all you act like a lot of people enjoy MK dittos, which isn't the case. Second there are only 4 Diddy's atm that even matter so that's a really bold statement. It's not about the amount of people but the ratio. If people play the Diddy ditto because they have to then they will do it even in case they don't like it - and if suddenly 2 out of 3 players use Diddy because they can use him and their other character lose the match-up vs Diddy ... then there will be a whole lot more Diddy dittos. Even if only 25% of the players actually enjoy them [or whatever the ratio of people who enjoy MK dittos is].

Die, I don't give a **** about your scrubby arguments. This is not a MK-ban thread and that has been mentioned by mods several times. We're talking about a hypothetical situation in case it happens .... but whether it should happen or not, is not to be talked about here.

 

[Die !]

if you accept that it will never happen then what's the point in lamenting it? you're wasting your energy

Because I can, I also like putting in my 2 Cents then there is also the fact that its not impossible. But I could care less, as long as meta is around i will continue to abuse him to my best ability

Also it takes a very minimal amount of energy to type i have no problem waisting my time, since being on the forum itself is a waste of time

Though on a more serious note

Gheb is a moron

No.



Broken stages need to be banned, with or without MK.



Uhm... first of all you act like a lot of people enjoy MK dittos, which isn't the case. Second there are only 4 Diddy's atm that even matter so that's a really bold statement. It's not about the amount of people but the ratio. If people play the Diddy ditto because they have to then they will do it even in case they don't like it - and if suddenly 2 out of 3 players use Diddy because they can use him and their other character lose the match-up vs Diddy ... then there will be a whole lot more Diddy dittos. Even if only 25% of the players actually enjoy them [or whatever the ratio of people who enjoy MK dittos is].

Die, I don't give a **** about your scrubby arguments. This is not a MK-ban thread and that has been mentioned by mods several times. We're talking about a hypothetical situation in case it happens .... but whether it should happen or not, is not to be talked about here.

I could care less about mods, they hardly enforce there own rules anyways, and what are they going to to Ban me ? so i can make a new account ?

and it should be talked about here since it has to do with the tier list so .

Also, what gave you the idea that people would go diddy if Mk got banned

 

[etecoon]

I wasn't referring to the time taken to articulate those thoughts but the thoughts themselves, you're pining over something that you have no control over

w/e though, have fun with that

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I like etecoon

This is a bad thing ;P

 

[Browny]

I don't give a **** about your scrubby arguments.

The irony... brb dying.

 

[Spelt]

I could argue the same about MK but I think it's pointless. People only see what they want to see.

Except, meta knight has arguable one weakness which is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar outclassed by his strengths. making such argument is just suicide.

 

[Die !]

I wasn't referring to the time taken to articulate those thoughts but the thoughts themselves, you're pining over something that you have no control over

w/e though, have fun with that

And I have no problem with that, Making comments on the tier list and saying this and that and pinning over who should be where etc.. is also a waste of time

Yet, we are all here talking about it

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The irony... brb dying.

Stay there, please. Nobody will miss you.

Except, meta knight has arguable one weakness which is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar outclassed by his strengths. making such argument is just suicide.

You ... have no idea what I even meant.

Some people visit this thread for their personal amusement .... and post there from time to time to join the mess. I get some good laughs off it, so I don't consider it a waste of time.

 

[Ripple]

hey guys.. MK is 19% of january's Metagame

 

[Die !]

hey guys.. MK is 19% of january's Metagame

And rising

 

[kackamee]

Stay there, please. Nobody will miss you.



You ... have no idea what I even meant.

Some people visit this thread for their personal amusement .... and post there from time to time to join the mess. I get some good laughs off it, so I don't consider it a waste of time.

In the event that MK would be banned and everyone switched to Diddy, He'd be able to be taken out by more characters then with MK unbanned.

 

[Deleted member]

burnt and Tesh have no idea what they're talking about.

I can't speak for X, but I under no circumstances was intentionally "stalling" anyone at MLG Dallas.
Tyrant and I only went to time because I managed to snag the lead away with, what, FIVE seconds left? Guess those five seconds I was in the lead were enough to qualify?

Only TWO of my games went to time out at MLG Dallas, burnt/Tesh, and they were both brought about by the campiness of my opponents (Olimar never has to approach, and Meta Knight can box Sonic out all day).

Having said that, I rarely EVER time people out, if at all. Aside from those two games out of...what, 34 games (2 vs. PeachGuard, 2 vs. Dakpo, 2 vs. Mr. Doom, 3 vs. DEHF, 2 vs. Zac, 2 vs. Shaky, 5 vs. Rich Brown, 3 vs. Tyrant, 5 vs. ESAM, 3 vs. Ally, and 5 vs. X) total, the last time I remember timing someone out in tournament was Dekar in Game 3 at ALS, which was SIX months ago.

Case in point, it's fairly rare for me to time someone out, so to Tesh/burnt/whoever, quit insinuating that it's the time out aptitude of my main that gives me the majority of my success, because that's just not true at all.

Yes, I'm mad. Pass the salt.

I didnt insinuate that at all LOL
But ok

Someone said espy times people out, you have.
I didnt say you intentionally do that, or that that makes you successful (obviously it doesnt lol you arent very campy).

It was just reflex being kinda dumb so i just said that ive seen you time people out too XD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In the event that MK would be banned and everyone switched to Diddy, He'd be able to be taken out by more characters then with MK unbanned.

MK is a better character than Diddy Kong.

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUN

 

[kackamee]

MK is a better character than Diddy Kong.

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUN

MK is better then FD's lip.

 

[DanGR]

On the topic of Diddy's matchups... Olimar does well against him. Fairly even, + or -, depending on what top players you ask. :<

And I'm not sure what the point is of arguing that Diddy would be just as dominant without MK (not that I think he would). If MK was banned... Diddy would be banned too if he became just as powerful, right? <.<

I mean, imagine if there were two more characters in Brawl- one being twice as good as MK, and the other being 5x as good. You'd ban both, regardless of what the game would look like after banning the more powerful one first, because the other one would still be a problem.

 

[Savon]

I thought that we were not allowed to talk about "he who shall not be banned".

So what do you guys think about Toon Link. Besides his terrible MK MU, how do you see him as a character overall?

 

[Die !]

I thought that we were not allowed to talk about "he who shall not be banned".

So what do you guys think about Toon Link. Besides his terrible MK MU, how do you see him as a character overall?

The Mods do not enforce the MK thing

On the TL thing

I could see him inching his way into B tier

 

[Juushichi]

I still want to know where this guy thought that D3 vs ROB was unwinnable. And that TL, Lucario and the other one not Falco was terrible for that robot. He's never answered for that. Pretty sure he made it up.

 

[etecoon]

toon link is the only character I actually see truly benefiting from an MK ban, others would have improved performances simply by gaining new players though, but when people are saying like...ROB and ike are being held down by MK, it's hilarious

but I think toon link is a very solid character outside of that MU

 

[Browny]

on a scale from 1 to he is as good as MK thus should be banned, id rate him a 12

 

[kackamee]

On the topic of Diddy's matchups... Olimar does well against him. Fairly even, + or -, depending on what top players you ask. :<

And I'm not sure what the point is of arguing that Diddy would be just as dominant without MK (not that I think he would). If MK was banned... Diddy would be banned too if he became just as powerful, right? <.<

I mean, imagine if there were two more characters in Brawl- one being twice as good as MK, and the other being 5x as good. You'd ban both, regardless of what the game would look like after banning the more powerful one first, because the other one would still be a problem.

Who has a good point? You have a good point!

 

[Spelt]

You ... have no idea what I even meant.

"diddy has clear weaknesses and even matchups"

"i could argue the same about mk"

"post about mk's weaknesses"


right....

 

[Chuee]

I still want to know where this guy thought that D3 vs ROB was unwinnable. And that TL, Lucario and the other one not Falco was terrible for that robot. He's never answered for that. Pretty sure he made it up.

ROB v D3 is pretty bad, though I don't think its quite unwinnable.

 

[Laem]

I like browny
content of his posts the last few days has been top notch

Gheb, on the other hand, should just gtfo(no offense, gtfo just sounds great) and go practice this game

d3 doesn't destroy rob

and even if its hilarious to say that rob and ike are being held down by MK, im fairly sure they of all characters are being held down by MK the most.

 

[Orion*]

What characters, if any, are held back specifically because of MK?

TL and marth

Player=/=Character.
Ness just is not a good character.

By your logic, we can never say ANY character is bad outside of a handful of characters who lack any sort of high level results, because there will ALWAYS be some occasion where a high level player, lose to another high level player using an inferior character.

I find it funny how people are making note of Marth getting undeserved hype, but meanwhile are hyping Ness. =3

wow i agree with you`

Funny thing is I've been right almost every single time.

tbh i just picked a random name didnt really care and i already named BPC

rob.

ike.

toon link.

all 3 get horribly reamed by mk but do surprisingly well vs diddy.

ike and rob both get wrecked

You are mixing issues here.

You did not ask, 'who would be viable with out mk in the metagame'

you asked 'what characters lose really bad to mk yet do well vs diddy'

i answered the question you proposed. Dont try to change the issue.

If you would like to ask, 'what new characters would be viable with out mk in the metagame, feel free to ask and I will answer that question specifically for you

i didnt even read back to see if you where right but it was certainly implied if not said directly xD

No, I did certainly not ask that...

but anyway he was right lul

Edit: Forget it Browny.

i just skip over his posts most of the time tbh its a waste of reading

if you accept that it will never happen then what's the point in lamenting it? you're wasting your energy

he wants attention

"diddy has clear weaknesses and even matchups"

"i could argue the same about mk"

"post about mk's weaknesses"


right....

he has no kill moves
he has a bad air release
he's light
he has bad air mobility
while transcendent priority is mostly an advantage most of the time, but you can take advantage of it
cant kill vertically outside of a obvious grounded upB (inB4 utilt hard read LOL) making proper DI vs him pretty easy
fair has a lot more lag than most people will admit
no projectile
im pretty sure outside of nair (not the best range) his catch times arent that great on airs (at least thats what it feels like, it could be the air speed though...)
Super situational glide toss , JC throw is good but not a godsend lol

 

[stingers]

umm ddd vs rob is def. unwinnable

imo

i think its his only unwinnable matchup though. falco and tl and lucario arent that bad lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think results are the only important thing when ranking characters, I just think it's the only quantifiable, real-world thing. Results exist, happen, and are tangible. They exist in a place other than inside someone's head. So, I usually think a list should be made to vaguely resemble results first, and then shuffled around a bit based on who won what, how they won, who they beat, etc. This to me is a lot better than just shoving a character in low tier and then moving them +2 because they place well a lot. The latter seems pretty backwards, and the former seems a lot smarter. It says "Oh, they place pretty well for a low tier" which is logically fallacious because it assumes they're low tier, when the tier list is about ranking characters in the meta game in the first place. It's like double-taxing them based on a pre-conceived notion.

You'll notice that in our tier list Browny and I didn't put Ness in high tier, we put him in low mid, which is basically where he is now. We know Ness has limitations, but we also know that despite these Ness manages to place, and we aren't ruling out the possibility that this Ness player and others have developed ways to outplay their limitations, which is what an evolving meta is all about. It isn't like we gave him +10 or something.

Look at it this way: people were mad when Pit was given +5 based on theorycraft without results to back it up, but right now a good portion of the tier list is based on this kind of hooey. There's no results to back up Marth being #6, but we just accept it because we accept that Marth is pretty good. etc. How is giving pit +5 because he's got good planking or whatever any different than assuming Marth is good because of equally unproven hypotheses anyway?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

he has no kill moves
he has a bad air release
he's light
he has bad air mobility
while transcendent priority is mostly an advantage most of the time, but you can take advantage of it
cant kill vertically outside of a obvious grounded upB (inB4 utilt hard read LOL) making proper DI vs him pretty easy
fair has a lot more lag than most people will admit
no projectile
im pretty sure outside of nair (not the best range) his catch times arent that great on airs (at least thats what it feels like, it could be the air speed though...)
Super situational glide toss , JC throw is good but not a godsend lol

The best gimp game by far, as well as nice KO moves in N-Air, Shuttle Loop, and F-Smash.
Smart use of Mach Tornado and generally super-safe moves makes getting grabbed by characters with grab-release potential really difficult.
He has a thirteen-frame U-Air animation, allowing him to jump earlier than anyone else, which greatly helps momentum canceling.
He has ridiculous aerials to prevent it from being punished, and his mobility becomes stupid whenever he wants it to due to Mach Tornado.
Transcendent priority is very rarely a problem, and it's hardly a clear weakness.
Again, his amazing gimping game allows for horizontal KOs to be no problem at all.
He has many moves that can function similarly, though.
Mach Tornado is a projectile, and transcendent priority could be argued as such.
Can't he just catch things with U-Air/D-Air?
Super distance, though; with his run speed, he hardly needs it.

 

[Spelt]

-rubs hands together- this should be fun.

he has no kill moves

awesome offstage game.
:ledge:

he has a bad air release

O yay, an extra 7% one of the rare times you actually manage to grab MK and he air releases.
:ledge:

he's light

best momentum canceling in the game.
:ledge:

he has bad air mobility

this is the weakness i was talking about.
:ledge:

while transcendent priority is mostly an advantage most of the time, but you can take advantage of it

based on a character to character basis.
:ledge:

cant kill vertically outside of a obvious grounded upB (inB4 utilt hard read LOL) making proper DI vs him pretty easy

he has no kill moves

fair has a lot more lag than most people will admit

FAIR point.

no projectile

Tornado.

im pretty sure outside of nair (not the best range) his catch times arent that great on airs (at least thats what it feels like, it could be the air speed though...)

I'm a scrub and have no idea what catch times means.

Super situational glide toss , JC throw is good but not a godsend lol

It's not bad, it's just different.


kinda ninja'd by reflex, but i feel this conversation needs more

 

[Die !]

TL and marth

wow i agree with you`



tbh i just picked a random name didnt really care and i already named BPC


ike and rob both get wrecked

i didnt even read back to see if you where right but it was certainly implied if not said directly xD

but anyway he was right lul

i just skip over his posts most of the time tbh its a waste of reading

he wants attention


he has no kill moves
he has a bad air release
he's light
he has bad air mobility
while transcendent priority is mostly an advantage most of the time, but you can take advantage of it
cant kill vertically outside of a obvious grounded upB (inB4 utilt hard read LOL) making proper DI vs him pretty easy
fair has a lot more lag than most people will admit
no projectile
im pretty sure outside of nair (not the best range) his catch times arent that great on airs (at least thats what it feels like, it could be the air speed though...)
Super situational glide toss , JC throw is good but not a godsend lol

Ahh another idiot who assumes that someone wants attn. because they voiced their opinion

Go back to be being bad at brawl please, k ty

 

[bigman40]

Ahh another idiot who assumes that someone wants attn. because they voiced their opinion

Go back to be being bad at brawl please, k ty

 

[Die !]

Leave the 4chan @ 4 chan

 

[Spelt]

Leave the 4chan @ 4 chan

http://allisbrawl.com/medals.aspx?id=6609

While you're there, leave the ignorance and idiocy too please.
Or at least know what you're talking about.