Official BBR Tier List v5

[Xebenkeck]

isn't there also something like a 20% increase in knockback if you were charging a attack?

 

[Spelt]

Theres several characters that arent gimped when they recover correctly.

And i also here if you live a kill move you're still alive.

 

[da K.I.D.]

isn't there also something like a 20% increase in knockback if you were charging a attack?

yes.

I believe I once saw a Yoshi die at like 45 to one of game and watches smashes because of this.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Theres several characters that arent gimped when they recover correctly.


You didnt say it but since someone else did, MK definitely doesnt have the best momentum canceling in the game (I hate it when peeps exaggerate like this). His jumps are short, his ability to reverse momentum in the air is bad, and it honestly doesnt feel like it makes an obvious difference like with some characters. Its nice but it doesnt spare him that much.


Its decently safe if it connects. But even if you get punished for a shielded tornado 1 out of 3 times, it really is not worth it. Getting grabbed or hit by a combo starter is not a worthwhile trade for what could end up being just a small percent. But I suppose it depends on the character too.


Completely agree (although shuttle loop might be his best move too). I dont know about guessing twice, but once it hits your shield you definitely need to guess their intention correctly or take damage.


Gimping, yes. If characters only have a decent recovery and dont DI correctly MK has a good opportunity at a stock. But MKs poor aerial mobility makes it difficult to set up kills with aerials.


Difficult but not impossible or unlikely. Projectiles on the other hand are safe.


I can speak from experience as pikachu. If I see MK start to fsmash, spam empty sh aerials, or come at me in the air I jolt. If it were marth he could swipe away the jolt and then hit me, instead he has to find a way to deal with the jolt. I prefer him to have it for this matchup.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find characters that aren't at all affected by Meta Knight's ability to gimp.

It's above-average, though, I'd say, even with his terrible horizontal aerial mobility.

I'm going to have to disagree. Any Tornado that lands puts him in the driver's seat, and he is capable of juggling characters to hell and back as a result of his...being Meta Knight. :/ Getting grabbed by not-Pikachu usually means ~12%, and they might take about 16% if they respond with a quick, strong hit instead of a grab. I would argue that the potential damage from the Tornado itself, as well as what it sets up for, make it pretty worthwhile on almost any character.

Yeah--Mess is dumb.

A single D-Air or aerial Shuttle Loop (the latter made much scarier by the fact that it could come from either side, or he could just hit you with an aerial, or carry you with Mach Tornado--Decisions, decisions...) does an excellent job of making people have to guess for their lives. It's not an uncommon scenario to be find yourself when you fight Meta Knight. Also, gimping aside, this built-in mix-up makes avoiding a juggle a daunting challenge.

There aren't many projectiles that can bring the match to anything close to a standstill, however, and fewer still can stop Meta Knight from camping his heart out, even when ignoring potential ledge abuse.

Well, it's not like Pikachu relies on his ground pokes to do a lot in the matchup, I imagine (correct me if I'm wrong; I don't claim to know the matchup very well). I'll give you that. Almost all other characters aren't as lucky, though.

 

[Pikabunz]

And i also here if you live a kill move you're still alive.

 

[Spelt]

K prime gets it! :D


Also, when you're living up to 180% with a light character compared to snake living to 200%, there is obviously something at work there. You can't argue that's bad. the ~20 frames he saves from his ridiculously fast uair more than makes up for his sub-par horizontal momentum.

oh, and fun fact, his ability to change directions in the air is actually not that bad.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Base Aerial Mobility (.07) + Aerial Mobility Boost While Decelerating (.01)

It's his max air speed that sucks.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Haha that made my night. XD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's the rules.

 

[ShadowLink84]

and i also here if you live a kill move you're still alive.

i knew it!

 

[Juushichi]

Thank you Based Prime.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

lmfao @ thank you based prime LMFAOFJISDOFJDLSKAHFJKLSDHKJFLAS

 

[\/aarsivius]

Prime just won 2 internetz.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wow... amazing picture. Also I think i've seen it somewhere before.

Spoiler

 

[Tagxy]

And i also here if you live a kill move you're still alive.

rofl, well I at least hope you know what I meant

And MK definitely doesnt live to 180. Excluding gimps since were discussing MC, in my experience using and fighting MK he dies considerably earlier then a large portion of the cast. Its actually a problem for me because I start to believe that all characters should die as early as him. And yeah, his horizontal air speed isnt trash, but its still poor which is bad for a light character.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find characters that aren't at all affected by Meta Knight's ability to gimp.

Its not difficult to be affected, even ganon can force ppl to recover low . Im going to assume that means MK has more control over the situation then his opponent. As far as gimping, I dont think thats true for a decent portion of the cast (its still brawl). But in regards to dealing damage, marth is the only character I can think of that comes close to having as much control as MK does in general. At the very least its something pika can avoid (with though and effort), but I dont know other characters well enough to say one way or another.

I'm going to have to disagree. Any Tornado that lands puts him in the driver's seat, and he is capable of juggling characters to hell and back as a result of his...being Meta Knight. :/ Getting grabbed by not-Pikachu usually means ~12%, and they might take about 16% if they respond with a quick, strong hit instead of a grab. I would argue that the potential damage from the Tornado itself, as well as what it sets up for, make it pretty worthwhile on almost any character.

If youre certain tornado is going to land I completely agree. If you think tornado might land, it can be questionable, but need to hesitate less then a move like that should allow. However if you know its going to hit a shield, its a bad idea (pokes or potential pokes would fall into the previous categories). Also, while rare, landing nado on a grounded opponent (especially from a shield poke) can still lead to punishment that doesnt trade well for MK.

There aren't many projectiles that can bring the match to anything close to a standstill, however, and fewer still can stop Meta Knight from camping his heart out, even when ignoring potential ledge abuse.

I just didnt like the comparison. Nado is a decent trade for a projectiles, however as far as qualities projectiles are safer, and are better at forcing approaches. It also simply works well with metaknight, I doubt the move would be nearly as good in another characters hands.

Well, it's not like Pikachu relies on his ground pokes to do a lot in the matchup, I imagine (correct me if I'm wrong; I don't claim to know the matchup very well). I'll give you that. Almost all other characters aren't as lucky, though.

Well I suppose it screws with pikas dtilt, lol. Where it hurts mk the most is when hes in the air and not above pika.

I agreed with everything else and/or didnt have a comment.

 

[etecoon]

tornado would be amazing in some other characters hands

but no it is not a substitute for a projectile, people who say that or that his sword is a projectile should kill themselves

 

[GodlyOwnage]

If it wasn't so hard to cancel MK nado he wouldn't be so godly, but having to hit the 'eye' of his tornado can be hard to do. That is why he is so uber, if he didn't have that I'd say he would be in the likes of the rest of the cast...and most likly replaces by snake or DDD. Still don't see how he dropped. Woot for Ike btw ^.^ one of my favy characters since roy is gone T.T

Could somone link me a vid of this San guys playing ike that was mentioned in the post please? I can't find him anywhere.

 

[etecoon]

If it wasn't so hard to cancel MK nado he wouldn't be so godly, but having to hit the 'eye' of his tornado can be hard to do. That is why he is so uber, if he didn't have that I'd say he would be in the likes of the rest of the cast...and most likly replaces by snake or DDD. Still don't see how he dropped.

you're my new favorite poster, you're better than die XD

 

[Luigi player]

MKs only real problem is planking. :\

 

[-LzR-]

If it wasn't so hard to cancel MK nado he wouldn't be so godly, but having to hit the 'eye' of his tornado can be hard to do. That is why he is so uber, if he didn't have that I'd say he would be in the likes of the rest of the cast...and most likly replaces by snake or DDD. Still don't see how he dropped. Woot for Ike btw ^.^ one of my favy characters since roy is gone T.T

Could somone link me a vid of this San guys playing ike that was mentioned in the post please? I can't find him anywhere.

What do you have to say about that M2K?

 

[Reyney]

the game's only real problem is MK's planking. :\

fix'd







.

 

[Orion*]

This didnt post from last night lol

That's not fair, though. Being able to gimp incredibly easily is really helpful, especially with Shuttle Loop. N-Air is Airdodge/Spotdodge 2.0; there are plenty of good places to throw it in. F-Smash is nigh unpunishable; there's little reason NOT to do it.

life isnt fair
gimps require a solid setup, and while i do agree mk has the ability to make those setups pretty soundly, i dont want to get into a direct option theory battle because it becomes character specific. overall though it takes some reads though, and its not like i can just be like "i use gimp as an option"

fsmash is SUPER hard to punish but... just dont approach it LOL. 24 something frames. gtfo or punish it on reaction, its not the worst to just have a situation reset

spot dodges and airdodges, while situationally being great, still take a solid read to use in high level play without being punished. you cant just "nair" ****, it works great vs wario specifically? but not vs a lot of the other top tiers as much outside of punishing a mistake

Well, everyone has those 26 frames to wait before doing an aerial, but few people have an aerial that's even close to the thirteen that Meta Knight's U-Air takes; the frames shaved by using U-Air do help a lot.

in reply to momentum cancelling? eh, while true he still dies upwardly pretty soundly even w/ perfect DI. snakes utilt, foxs usmash, falcos kills at 125 which is pretty good also, diddys utilt kills if you dont DI it properly so im not gonna count that, but he gets banana setups into everything lol

marths utilt/smash

there are plenty of moves that kill mk relatively early

Smart use of movement around platforms makes it pretty difficult to punish, regardless.

difficulty doesnt matter

if i should be punished then we just arent good enough yet at the game to adequately do so

I maintain that Meta Knight's F-Tilt is probably his best move overall. You can cancel the first and second swing, or do the next swing at any time, so even if it's shielded, it turns into, "Will he continue the F-Tilt, or cancel into something else?" The opponent has to guess correctly at least twice before he has the opportunity to retaliate. This is further made awesome by his fast D-Tilt, which is also cancellable.

yes, but to go into situation reset is SUPER easy

first ftilt lag if he cancels into something is TEN frames. if he dash grabs or something we should be able to react to it (i will admit dtilt after is super homo though if you shield, gay position- but you shouldnt really shield their anyway just sdi away [not up..] and wait for me to dash or be greedy)
2nd ftilt is TWENTY. you can simply just roll away, or sh air dodge oos away in either situation if youre unsure. if i chase w/ dash attack thats very punishable

No other character has an aerial that takes thirteen frames to do the entire animation, or an aerial that comes out on frame 2. This, combined with the often-greater threat of the multi-hit/huge damage N-Air, and the very-powerful gimping machines of Shuttle Loop and D-Air, creates a situation where the guessing game is lost and works better than most characters as far as that goes.

okay so lets say i uair, and air that has 10 frames or less after that hitbox is gonna get me. is it reasonable to do all the time? no because you cant REACT to two frames, it requires a read. so if you want to react thats 3... thats not reasonable at all. so simply put... you cant punish mk for being BELOW you without a hard read.

cool beans. unless youre already in a trash position mks not gonna just be running at you uairing (other than lol wario jumping around )

if youre infront of me, or below me its gonna be a different move, which IS reasonable to punish

Because of the floatiness of Brawl, multiple jumps, crazy range, and Meta Knight's Mach Tornado, trying to retaliate is usually a bad idea. That's why D-Airs at certain angles are so effective at bringing the match to a standstill.

dair camping really isnt that good....

its used because the risk reward ratio in regards to mk fighting good characters on the ground is better (getting grabbed by anyone in s-a tier is really gay actually)

so its like, choosing ****tier more limited options, over the potential risk of getting grabbed.

youre not gonna win matches vs good players ONLY dair camping, you can really only just bide time or keep a match at a standstill. at some point in order to go in for a kill you either have to A. go for a grab// land or B. maybe try for nado which could POTENTIALLY get a juggle if they dont DI out ...

Fair enough, but, what matchups would the opponent be gaining more out of Meta Knight having transcendent priority on his sword attacks than Meta Knight himself?

a really notable one is pikachu

i like it vs mario also lol, if you want more examples i could look deeper

also, clanking moves w/ mk in general would be pretty gay, because his dtilt comes out fast enough that it would probably just force the opponent to shield and be put in a crap position

I often say that Snake U-Tilt is the best projectile in the game. The trancendent priority makes me want to single out Meta Knight's attacks over other disjointed hitboxes. Also, Mach Tornado is ridiculously good at being a projectile.

cool so youre consistent. it still doesnt make it a projectile though... disjoints/priority dont make projectiles lol

But when you shield or jump just outside of their range, the fun starts...and few characters can reliably get past that.

elaborate please

 

[Blacknight99923]

I have to agree with truth(and orion) about mk in general.

his biggest problem to me is allowing brinstar and rc at the same tournament

 

[TheReflexWonder]

life isnt fair
gimps require a solid setup, and while i do agree mk has the ability to make those setups pretty soundly, i dont want to get into a direct option theory battle because it becomes character specific. overall though it takes some reads though, and its not like i can just be like \"i use gimp as an option\"

fsmash is SUPER hard to punish but... just dont approach it LOL. 24 something frames. gtfo or punish it on reaction, its not the worst to just have a situation reset

spot dodges and airdodges, while situationally being great, still take a solid read to use in high level play without being punished. you cant just \"nair\" ****, it works great vs wario specifically? but not vs a lot of the other top tiers as much outside of punishing a mistake


in reply to momentum cancelling? eh, while true he still dies upwardly pretty soundly even w/ perfect DI. snakes utilt, foxs usmash, falcos kills at 125 which is pretty good also, diddys utilt kills if you dont DI it properly so im not gonna count that, but he gets banana setups into everything lol

marths utilt/smash

there are plenty of moves that kill mk relatively early

difficulty doesnt matter

if i should be punished then we just arent good enough yet at the game to adequately do so



yes, but to go into situation reset is SUPER easy

first ftilt lag if he cancels into something is TEN frames. if he dash grabs or something we should be able to react to it (i will admit dtilt after is super homo though if you shield, gay position- but you shouldnt really shield their anyway just sdi away [not up..] and wait for me to dash or be greedy)
2nd ftilt is TWENTY. you can simply just roll away, or sh air dodge oos away in either situation if youre unsure. if i chase w/ dash attack thats very punishable


okay so lets say i uair, and air that has 10 frames or less after that hitbox is gonna get me. is it reasonable to do all the time? no because you cant REACT to two frames, it requires a read. so if you want to react thats 3... thats not reasonable at all. so simply put... you cant punish mk for being BELOW you without a hard read.

cool beans. unless youre already in a trash position mks not gonna just be running at you uairing (other than lol wario jumping around )

if youre infront of me, or below me its gonna be a different move, which IS reasonable to punish



dair camping really isnt that good....

its used because the risk reward ratio in regards to mk fighting good characters on the ground is better (getting grabbed by anyone in s-a tier is really gay actually)

so its like, choosing ****tier more limited options, over the potential risk of getting grabbed.

youre not gonna win matches vs good players ONLY dair camping, you can really only just bide time or keep a match at a standstill. at some point in order to go in for a kill you either have to A. go for a grab// land or B. maybe try for nado which could POTENTIALLY get a juggle if they dont DI out ...

a really notable one is pikachu

i like it vs mario also lol, if you want more examples i could look deeper

also, clanking moves w/ mk in general would be pretty gay, because his dtilt comes out fast enough that it would probably just force the opponent to shield and be put in a crap position

cool so youre consistent. it still doesnt make it a projectile though... disjoints/priority dont make projectiles lol

elaborate please

I\'d just argue that Meta Knight does a much better job at creating those opportunities for gimps than almost any character, and he certainly has the best ability to do so when they\'re offstage (outside of, like, Wario with a good Waft, maybe). The risk/reward factor is very heavily skewed in Meta Knight\'s favor when compared to others\' gimping game (where most characters still have it skewed in their direction at least a fair amount).

It\'s one that he can use at virtually ANY time, though. If the opponent doesn\'t have his projectiles out already (Diddy and Snake both come to mind), why -wouldn\'t- you do this move? As if it weren\'t hard enough to get in on Meta Knight when he has the lead...Now opponents have to worry about running into a move that was done for no reason other than the fact that it\'s stupidly safe.

I guess...I was under the impression that N-Air covered a lot of Falco\'s options, including his obnoxious spotdodge. It\'s pretty safe to \"just throw out,\" and make for a fantastic OoS option. Massive damage and shreds up shields. It\'s good for punishing a lot of things, \"mistakes\" or not.

I\'ll give you that; vertical KO characters can do a number on Meta Knight. That said, Meta Knight is really good at avoiding getting hit, too; among the best, for sure.

I mean \"difficult\" as \"it gets to the point where all you can do is guess where he\'s gonna be when he lands.\" Miss your grab? Get the **** again. I guess if you say that \"if you can\'t punish a move, we\'re just not good enough at the game yet,\" then we should legalize the Infinite Dimensional Cape, too. The reason we can\'t reliably punish smart use of Tornado is because you -have to guess.- His mobility is too good to be able to judge reliably, since he could always go on the other side at the very last bit or land on the platform, etc.

Very, very few characters can cover the distance of Meta Knight\'s F-Tilt in ten frames and punish, even if they know he\'s going to cancel it. That being said, even if they could (and they certainly can for the twenty frames of the second swing), you still have to watch out for the rest of the attack, potentially. You shouldn\'t have to make that many reads just to get around a single move. >_> Also, situation reset isn\'t going to help much when Meta Knight has the lead. Why would Meta Knight give chase like that? He\'s Meta Knight. Players should be smarter than that.

The trouble comes in with the fact that Meta Knight has multiple jumps, and his fastfall speed isn\'t so similar to his normal fall speed. They make all the difference as far as timing goes. Mix it up, and there isn\'t much chance for most characters to deal with U-Air, let alone all his other moves.

Choosing ****tier options can be better when it makes other characters have ****tier options, too. Compared to Meta Knight, most characters\' option pool become much smaller in that case. After all, there\'s always using Mach Tornado to go to the Smashville platform, right?

You could always time the opponent out. Meta Knight is really, really good at that, even without ledge abuse. More often than not, Meta Knight will have the lead throughout the match (that\'s my understanding, at least). If you use other things beforehand, D-Air camping can make all the difference as far as keeping that lead goes.

It\'s okay--There\'s no real arguing against the fact that some characters prefer it. However, I still feel that the good outweighs the bad, for sure.

Well, out of curiosity, what do you feel makes a move a projectile?

As far as dashing being risky goes, a quick shield or jump just outside of an opponent\'s range allows you to use all of the options available to your character, which is risky for the opponent, given the fact that Meta Knight\'s number of options is far higher in most situations...But, if we were talking about the glide toss options (I forget, hah), he gets a whole lot out of the slide itself. Squirtle does, too.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I have to agree with truth(and orion) about mk in general.

his biggest problem to me is allowing brinstar and rc at the same tournament

But again if a stage is banned simply for a character being overpowered there , isn't that character up for a ban itself rather than limit the game to accomidate him?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But again if a stage is banned simply for a character being overpowered there , isn\'t that character up for a ban itself rather than limit the game to accomidate him?

Melee banned lots of stages just to limit the laser camping potential of Fox.

We have banned stuff like Corneria and Norfair because of a small number of characters.

 

[etecoon]

But again if a stage is banned simply for a character being overpowered there , isn't that character up for a ban itself rather than limit the game to accomidate him?

brinstar creates a lot of ridiculous MU's that have nothing to do with MK, that stage is complete bull ****

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

A projectile is a disjointed hitbox seperated from the hurtbox in which the distance from the player character increases over time, usually used to harass, set up for other moves, or force an approach. Tornado doesn't really do that, it just barrels through obstacles and does 18% damage.

Melee banned lots of stages just to limit the laser camping potential of Fox.

We have banned stuff like Corneria and Norfair because of a small number of characters.

Except Meta Knight has a variety of other dumb problems, like having a broken down-b, being able to indefinitely stall out matches, being broken on ledges, plus he's nearly unbeatable on several stages. Just because we ban this stuff doesn't mean it's not broken. How many micro-bans should we include in our rulesets before we just weed out the root of the problem?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A projectile is a disjointed hitbox seperated from the hurtbox in which the distance from the player character increases over time, usually used to harass, set up for other moves, or force an approach. Tornado doesn\'t really do that, it just barrels through obstacles and does 18% damage.

Except Meta Knight has a variety of other dumb problems, like having a broken down-b, being able to indefinitely stall out matches, being broken on ledges, plus he\'s nearly unbeatable on several stages. Just because we ban this stuff doesn\'t mean it\'s not broken. How many micro-bans should we include in our rulesets before we just weed out the root of the problem?

If I\'m not mistaken, the direction that each shard of Rock Smash flies is randomized. Does that mean that if they all fly toward Charizard, it is no longer a projectile?

I know that Meta Knight causes a bunch of other issues. I\'m just saying that \"dominating on otherwise-usable stages\" isn\'t good reasoning for banning the character; at least, not on its own. As an aside, I\'m pro-ban.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't really consider Rock Smash to be a projectile because the distance it travels isn't far enough to be used as a projectile in any traditional way.

 

[etecoon]

personally I wouldn't really consider rock smash a projectile, the animation may show something projectilish, but it's still a close range attack, just like I wouldn't consider ness' yo-yo attacks to be a projectile

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don\'t really consider Rock Smash to be a projectile because the distance it travels isn\'t far enough to be used as a projectile in any traditional way.

I wish the shards couldn\'t be reflected by stuff like Falco\'s Down-B.

 

[_Kadaj_]

You know Luis if you mained Marth you could just punish everyone of MK's Actions for free

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, Reflex. Become a US Marth that can realistically win tournaments in his region.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I wish the shards couldn\'t be reflected by stuff like Falco\'s Down-B.

ZSS' dsmash can be absorbed by GaW's bucket. I guess this makes it a projectile.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ZSS' dsmash can be absorbed by GaW's bucket. I guess this makes it a projectile.

I would say it's a projectile...

Snake's U-Smash is a projectile.

I don't see why it's distance should have anything to do with it. Dan's fireballs in the older Street Fighter games are totally (****ty) projectiles. Yoga Flame is a projectile.

You know Luis if you mained Marth you could just punish everyone of MK's Actions for free

And that's why I don't understand how Marth players supposedly have such trouble with the matchup.

Also, Marth is LAAAAAAME

 

[SmasherLink]

See, there is a problem, more people whom are pros play as Link, than any other character. Smash boards, either get your fact straight, or I will shut this down with the FCC's help. 3/4 of the world's people play as Link.

 

[_Kadaj_]

And that's why I don't understand how Marth players supposedly have such trouble with the matchup.

Also, Marth is LAAAAAAME

lol I don't see how the mu is that difficult tbh, The only thing that keeps the mu from being even imo is that MK has a greater ability to gimp Marth then the other way around. Then again he dies at 50 from GR to Dair so there is still some kinda hope to recover if he's been gimped

 

[JayBee]

A projectile is a disjointed hitbox seperated from the hurtbox in which the distance from the player character increases over time, usually used to harass, set up for other moves, or force an approach. Tornado doesn't really do that, it just barrels through obstacles and does 18% damage.




Except Meta Knight has a variety of other dumb problems, like having a broken down-b, being able to indefinitely stall out matches, being broken on ledges, plus he's nearly unbeatable on several stages. Just because we ban this stuff doesn't mean it's not broken. How many micro-bans should we include in our rulesets before we just weed out the root of the problem?

this. since like, 2 years ago this.

 

[Chuee]

See, there is a problem, more people whom are pros play as Link, than any other character. Smash boards, either get your fact straight, or I will shut this down with the FCC's help. 3/4 of the world's people play as Link.

what................................

 

[Jimmyfosho]

See, there is a problem, more people whom are pros play as Link, than any other character. Smash boards, either get your fact straight, or I will shut this down with the FCC's help. 3/4 of the world's people play as Link.

Lol'd so hard