Official BBR Tier List v7

[PMC66]

vs

Forever 10 minutes X_X...every match.

i can imagine it being horrible for the jigglypuff player lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBkeSBxjvPs

 

[-LzR-]

IIRC Yoshi has a lethal GR to uair on Puff that really really hurts. Not to mention he is the only character faster than her in the air. -6 kthxbye

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS horizontal footstool.
GG.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've never seen someone who can consistently GR > Uair with Yoshi.

Especially since if they mess up, I imagine they'd get rested.

 

[Scatz]

Because the window for landing Uair is too small. Besides that, who in the world plays Yoshi vs Jiggs outside of low tier tournaments?

 

[Iota]

minus outside of low tier tournaments cause Yoshi is top of lower-mid tier atm :L

 

[Delta-cod]

I've never seen someone who can consistently GR > Uair with Yoshi.

Especially since if they mess up, I imagine they'd get rested.

We don't get rested. I don't even see how that would be possible.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I've never seen someone who can consistently GR > Uair with Yoshi.

Especially since if they mess up, I imagine they'd get rested.

You cant rest Yoshi for missing GR > uair for multiple reasons. 1. We're too far below you, 2. We fall faster, and 3. Our tail doesnt have a hurtbox up there as the hurtbox doesnt stretch along with the tail, it just moves to the center of the tail, which will still be below Jiggs. Also, the GR > uair is super easy. All Yoshi has to do is full hop as he puts his foot down during his grab release animation (that visual queue is easy for timing when his lag ends) then move forward slightly and uair at the apex of the jump. Theres a good 3-5 frame leeway as well.

 

[kismet2]

I didn't come in here to get yelled at by a troll.

I really hope more people start doing work with Falco.

i gotcha and show that this character is AT LEAST the second best character in the game

 

[Orion*]

Pit and Lucario also have a ground game that can stuff Meta Knight's moves and threaten his potential landing, as well as moves that actively threaten Tornado in a realistic situation.

Not exactly

It depends on the situation. If you are in their face (where nado can even potentially be hit out of startup), then yes this is true. If I'm at a proper zoning range, it's quite simple to literally just tornado over everything but like lol random mirror shield gimmick, or jump aura sphere. AS comes out like frame 20 also, so many times unless I'm just outright hard read I can win anyway.

Wario just outside of his fsmash range doesn't really have anything consistent either, unless I give you time to ftilt. So at that range you will have to accept the fact that even if you read it, it's best to just shield and weather the storm. However, anything else even if you just walked away before I nado'd you can jump/run away regardless of the fact that the jump is 7 frames.

If you have you're DJ imo you have an advantage because you have the option to dair or fart (kinda hard though) if the spacing is correct, or DJ and just opt to not

Mobility doesn't mean anything if you can't get in or scare the opponent with it.

How is fart not scary. How is fsmash not scary. How is uair not scary.

They are big hit, read/mistake reward based moves, but that does not change the fact that they are scary.

Wario doesn't really have mix-ups in this matchup outside of throwing yourself at the opponent and hoping you guessed that he used the one or two moves that allow you to D-Air, F-Tilt, whatever.

You have a grab you know
Like just watching videos of top warios, including yourself trying to say wario has no mixups just sounds wrong.

Meta Knight's bad horizontal aerial mobility doesn't mean much, since anytime it comes into play, Meta Knight can just glide or Tornado to the ledge/ground with little trouble against Wario.

If I want to attack/follow up/chase you, gliding or nadoing especially if you have your jump is ASKING to get farted in everyway.

In terms of running away, glide is kinda pointless unless im in a range to not get hit because of the startup. It makes more sense to just uair/dair/nado and stay safe.

It's not about being frame-perfect; it's about staying close to the ground and keeping moves out while mixing it up. You NEVER have to move forward as Meta Knight

Its kinda funny that if you never move forward, your spacing is static enough to just zone and go in on. If you want to say rarely sure, but one of mks best options is to dash in and then retreat with a spaced fair.

Note that you are saying that I have to mixup to stay safe, which implies the fact that if wario reads me he gets a punish.

and Meta Knight has plenty of time to react with a bunch of strong, useful options once Wario lucks out with an airdodge or landing, so, again, Wario has to make two hard reads to do ANYTHING to Meta Knight. It's just how well he spaces Wario as a character--That's why the range difference is so potent.

Metaknights moves comparatively arent strong, and anything that deals significant punish breaks away from staying safe, so if read can be hard punished significantly.

For example, nair, dsmash, fsmash.
UpB kinda breaks that mold, but the reward of 9% doesnt really do much when if baited you can get farted vs a fat character like wario.

I don't think there are any players capable of consistently reacting to warios weaving, similar to jiggs in melee. So please LMAO

itt metaknights call other characters boring

der i time people out

Not true.
Olimar ditto. 1 purple Pikmin only. SideB suddenly becomes the funniest move in the game.

this sounds hilarious

Cool... We get insulted for using a character we like.

yes

Yo dude, it's not that serious. O.o

Yes

It is that serious

**** yoshi, he's boring as ****

YES

As a Yoshi main, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post because this stuff about spending tons of time on the game only to lose anyway is exactly what's been gradually pushing me to drop the character for a long time now. I've been maining Yoshi for over 3 years, and no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to break placing 3rd-5th in an insignificant region. In fact, the only tournament win I have this year resulted from me having committed to not use Yoshi at all; I used my mediocre pocket DK/Diddy instead. I've placed really poorly at every national I've been to, but more importantly, I can't even win occasionally in my own region despite being more experienced than the players that do win tournaments...mainly because losing to Yoshi gets harder and harder each time you play against him.

The most hilarious part of this is, I've never even really felt any true satisfaction from beating decent players. Every time I travel for smash and get a decent win, I'm not thinking "Man, I really outplayed them!"; I'm thinking "Oh cool, they didn't know the MU and I didn't **** up!" If I beat someone in my own region with Yoshi, it's because they were playing poorly. This is going to seem strange to some, but I feel more satisfaction when I beat the same player with Metaknight or Diddy or something because I know I won by playing at a level of skill they couldn't match, not because they forgot how to deal with my gimmicks.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel that the players that beat me have earned their wins. I just think that if all the time I had put into Yoshi went to a good character instead, I would be doing a lot better than I am now. And I have much respect for the Yoshis that keep pressing on with the character; I just don't think I can do it much longer. I'd much rather win than be a "good Yoshi" (whatever that means).

tl;dr - not all Yoshi mains enjoy losing.

swag

>Implying anyone enjoys losing.

Also, ITT: Implying everyone has the same goals for this game.

but implications are only implications

sit the **** down

dead

but in japan...

even mu....sashi

Dash Attack is Frame 7 and has the range to at least touch him/his shield. D-Smash is Frame 5, and his other two Smash attacks are Frame 6. Without going into his above-average Jab and somewhat useful tilts, he has it better than a majority of the cast there.

Like MK can actually stand in place and ftilt or dtilt all of this on autopilot.

People play brawl for an enormous variety of reasons, theres no reason to hate-on or assume. Pride in particular can extend well beyond winning.

I agree with you

Except I don't feel like playing yoshi is playing brawl
and yoshi doesn't win

Also, I don't actually put hours and hours of work into this game. I literally only play at tournaments and the occasional time people play Brawl at Riz's house, lol.

I guess if you count the ~hour of serious matches I play per tournament and add them all together I put hours and hours of work into this game.

Like, that's bull****

you are a good player. you put in hours SOMEWHERE, even if it's just in your head breaking stuff down. you don't have to go hardcore. But I know for a fact there was a point you played at riz's house plenty with ZB.

I don't see why this community has a problem openly admitting they practiced their own game. It really bothers me.

Lmao you know I main Bowser right?

Vex -2.0

and pit is one of those MUs you could literally just nado and win. it beats arrows and every single other move pit has besides his frame 14 ftilt

Fsmash the nadooooooo

I could point out the intricacies of the matchup, but I don't really have the time or the energy to explain it. Pit has many more tools than Wario to reliably work magic.

Pit really doesn't have anything outside of an annoying B button, that gets countered by our B button when we get in his face.

Pit has to actually read more to get significant hits in comparison to wario, because for the most part his **** is not threatening at all even if he lands the hits.
He doesn't have strong air options vs MK or mobility to work around nado/upB, and his ground game literally gets shut down to is he going to do anything, or dash in and hope with shield.

don't call me bad when you lost to ryo in less than 2 minutes. **** your edit, i see you *****.

you made me laugh and wake my girl up
+1 orion award

IIRC Yoshi has a lethal GR to uair on Puff that really really hurts. Not to mention he is the only character faster than her in the air. -6 kthxbye

true

I've never seen someone who can consistently GR > Uair with Yoshi.

Especially since if they mess up, I imagine they'd get rested.

Come to think of it I've never seen a consistent yoshi

who in the world plays Yoshi vs Jiggs outside of low tier tournaments?

Australians

i gotcha and show that this character is AT LEAST the second best character in the game

Naaaaa

hold that

 

[Z'zgashi]

Giant wall of text

 

[Delta-cod]

Like, that's bull****

you are a good player. you put in hours SOMEWHERE, even if it's just in your head breaking stuff down. you don't have to go hardcore. But I know for a fact there was a point you played at riz's house plenty with ZB.

I don't see why this community has a problem openly admitting they practiced their own game. It really bothers me.

I don't have a problem admitting that I practiced this game. I just have a different definition of practice, I guess.

I did, around 2009-2010, think about this game all the time during school, like you said in that first sentence there. If you count that as work/practice, then yeah, I did put in a lot of time.

I haven't physically practiced this game much in the last year at all, though.

 

[Orion*]

-dead-

also i didnt know one liners counted as walls

I don't have a problem admitting that I practiced this game. I just have a different definition of practice, I guess.

I did, around 2009-2010, think about this game all the time during school, like you said in that first sentence there. If you count that as work/practice, then yeah, I did put in a lot of time.

I haven't physically practiced this game much in the last year at all, though.

Well no, the way you play isn't tech heavy, and you're smart so there's no need to constantly play all the time to stay at the level you currently are.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well if you make like 40 one liners then its quite the wall.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well no, the way you play isn't tech heavy, and you're smart so there's no need to constantly play all the time to stay at the level you currently are.

Well yeah. This way I can't have warmup or "I haven't played this game in months!" johns. Efficiency!

Well, as efficient as you can get by maining trash like Yoshi.

 

[Uncle]

Yo, let's all just main MK. All the cool kids are doing it!

Once we get bored with him, we can ban him and go all ICs.

Ah, Brawl is most definitely the best competitive fighter ever made.

 

[Lord Chair]

Never have I seen a moderator make such an insightful and progressive post.

 

[Uncle]

Never have I seen a moderator make such an insightful and progressive post.

Why thank you. It's always an honor to share my revolutionary views with the Smash-playing world.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK can't beat Pit by using only Tornado. American Pits are just bad. All of them.

Earth's wins vs M2K may not mean everything but they're not worthless either - unless you can show me the american Pit player who is good enough even to not get two stocked by M2K you can't claim that he's plain bad at the match-up without actively admitting how much you lack the understanding how Pit as a character works. Because even if M2K sucked at the match-up there must be a difference between what american Pits do and what japanese Pits do.
Earth doesn't only have a winning record vs M2K but he's also fairly even with Akira [back when he was good] and Masashi is like 2-0 or 3-0 in sets vs Rain's MK [who definitely knows the match-up]. Even if the match-up is difficult it reflects very poorly on the american Pits if you blame it all on the character in your ignorance.

It's really sad though. Americans confuse whatever Pit players they have for somebody who actually knows how to use the character when actually only Masashi, Earth and cyve do. No wonder everybody thinks the character sucks.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

omg why are all of your posts meat-riding Japan so hard

I mean, I kind-of agree with you on that point, but gawd

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This time I agree with Gheb. The closest thing we ever had to a remotely successful Pit was Kool-aid, someone who never travelled and quit playing Pit before he really hit his stride.

cyve, Earth and Masashi have ridiculous Pit gameplay compared to North America. M2k's loss to Earth might not prove Pit is a good character but it shows how little our top players know about how Pit works.

I admit Pit's success abroad confuses me too, though. Outside of his neutral B his entire kit seems mediocre. Most of his moves have either unbearable startup time or tons of ending lag, his fair and bair hit at bizarre angles that feel borderline unusable. His grab has atrocious range, his multi-hit moves are very easy to SDI (like pikachu dsmash-level SDI problems). So yeah I just don't get it, but that's a personal problem and international Pits do so much work it's hard to argue with.

 

[DMG]

Who cares Pit is lame

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Outside of his neutral B his entire kit seems mediocre.

Pit's entire defensive engine is a collection of moves with frame data and attributes that range between over-average and among the best in the game. His back roll is good, his forward roll is among the best of the game, his spotdodge is tied with the best ones in the game too. He has a fairly fast OoS jump and his shield can tolerate a surprising number of hits. Pit is virtually immune to all kinds of traps - the benefitial frame data within his defensive movess makes it harder for opponents to frame trap him than almost all other characters [especially since Pit doesn't suffer from poor fall speed like Lucario or Olimar do], his 5 jumps, fast glide and solid dair are among the strongest equipments in the game to defend againsts juggle and of course Pit's capabilities on the ledge aren't even up for debate.

Couple that with what can be argued to be the best - in any case the most versatile - projectile in the game, a very good recovery and the fact that Pit is not light but mid-weight and you have a character with incredible defensive capabilities.

 

[infiniteV115]

What's so good about his spotdodge and broll?
Though admittedly his froll is surprisingly good, I had no idea.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah his defensive options honestly seem pretty average to me. He has a nice froll, but that's not enough to say he has like top tier defensive mechanics.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have read a different frame data thread ... it had Pit among the best spotdodgers. Weird.

And back rolls are just good in general but the fact that all his defensive tools are viable [plus the rest of what I said] make his defenses still better than most of the cast. Even if it seems like I had inaccurate data the point remains *shrug*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Like, would you say ZSS has awesome defensive mechanics? I wouldn't, despite the fact that she has a top tier froll, top tier air dodge, a surprisingly thick shield, a good (read: same as most of the cast's) spot dodge, one of the best momentum cancels in the game, a move that makes her instantly intangible for 12 frames and allows her to footstool easily, the longest tether distance in the game, and so forth. Her backroll is pretty bad, but you don't really even have to use it. I use ZSS because I know her options, but it seems to me that Pit has a similar problem where if someone is hitting his shield with a well-spaced attack he pretty much is just going to try to roll away. I mean, he'll get away with it (as do other characters with good rolls) but I don't see how he's especially good at avoiding pressure compared to the rest of the cast, sorry.

He has good rolls, good recovery, and a nice projectile. What else?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Summary: It is really easy to make the evidence suit your argument instead of basing your argument on the evidence.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Summary: It is really easy to make the evidence suit your argument instead of basing your argument on the evidence.

Actually, the real evidence (Pit's placement outside America, especially in Japan where players are better overall) is in Gheb's favor.

I'm just wondering why that is. I don't buy the "really hard to pressure and trap" argument, the frame data we have doesn't really support that.

Also: Pit's grab is horriawful. I don't know how fast it is, but it's impossible to use it out of shield if the guy you're playing doesn't misspace really, really badly. I think he has a good pivot grab but it's been a while since I played Pit (I used to play him all the time).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was talking about the theorycraft around frame data (because that's what Gheb was talking about), but yeah, dem japanese Pits

Why is j@p censored so dumb

 

[Blistering Speed]

Because it's an ethnic slur, moron.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Seeing as your sending that message from the past, I won't spoil the end of World War II for you, don't worry.
EDIT: Lol so I looked it up and apparently it is offensive in flopmerica? K. Mah bad

 

[Blistering Speed]

I don't know what's more ignorant, that you assume to speak for the entirety of a race of people or that you don't realise that the word is still a derogatory slur in the majority of modern culture.

EDIT: As long as you're aware.

 

[infiniteV115]

If ZSS' defensive options are good it's mainly because of her froll and her dash speed (ie run away pivot sideB/nB). I suppose uair OoS, jump OoS and jab1 are all decent-good defensive options as well.

Her back roll is so bad that I actually consider it a decent mixup since nobody expects it LOL
Her spotdodge is okay but she doesn't have the CQC to back it up. Snake has the same spotdodge but it's a lot safer to spotdodge with him because you have to worry about his jab, tilts (except not really dtilt) and grab...and nades.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It depends on the situation. If you are in their face (where nado can even potentially be hit out of startup), then yes this is true. If I'm at a proper zoning range, it's quite simple to literally just tornado over everything but like lol random mirror shield gimmick, or jump aura sphere. AS comes out like frame 20 also, so many times unless I'm just outright hard read I can win anyway.

Wario just outside of his fsmash range doesn't really have anything consistent either, unless I give you time to ftilt. So at that range you will have to accept the fact that even if you read it, it's best to just shield and weather the storm. However, anything else even if you just walked away before I nado'd you can jump/run away regardless of the fact that the jump is 7 frames.

If you have you're DJ imo you have an advantage because you have the option to dair or fart (kinda hard though) if the spacing is correct, or DJ and just opt to not



How is fart not scary. How is fsmash not scary. How is uair not scary.

They are big hit, read/mistake reward based moves, but that does not change the fact that they are scary.



You have a grab you know
Like just watching videos of top warios, including yourself trying to say wario has no mixups just sounds wrong.



If I want to attack/follow up/chase you, gliding or nadoing especially if you have your jump is ASKING to get farted in everyway.

In terms of running away, glide is kinda pointless unless im in a range to not get hit because of the startup. It makes more sense to just uair/dair/nado and stay safe.



Its kinda funny that if you never move forward, your spacing is static enough to just zone and go in on. If you want to say rarely sure, but one of mks best options is to dash in and then retreat with a spaced fair.

Note that you are saying that I have to mixup to stay safe, which implies the fact that if wario reads me he gets a punish.



Metaknights moves comparatively arent strong, and anything that deals significant punish breaks away from staying safe, so if read can be hard punished significantly.

For example, nair, dsmash, fsmash.
UpB kinda breaks that mold, but the reward of 9% doesnt really do much when if baited you can get farted vs a fat character like wario.

I don't think there are any players capable of consistently reacting to warios weaving, similar to jiggs in melee. So please LMAO

Much of the trouble revolves around the fact that Pit and Lucario can threaten a Meta Knight who is in neutral position (obviously not in a big way, but, enough to care to shield sometimes), which means that Meta Knight isn't in as much control of the space he occupies while he's on the ground. As a result, optimal spacing range is more difficult for Meta Knight to keep against these characters than against Wario. Again, all the mobility in the world doesn't make much difference if you can't immediately threaten him with it.

Meta Knight has U-Air, Tornado, Shuttle Loop, general run speed, pivot grab, and rolls to prevent D-Air/Waft mix-up from being anything close to reliable. Also, if the Waft is charged enough to KO you, what stops you from grabbing the ledge until Wario has a full Waft? Full Waft isn't fast enough to work nearly as well against Meta Knight's quick options.

As I said, Waft is only truly dangerous if you let it be; there's no reason to camp hardcore until it's full, where it isn't nearly as threatening. F-Smash requires you to be on the ground and close to Meta Knight, a situation that is incredibly uncommon because Meta Knight's ground/shorthop spacing game destroys a vast majority of Wario's attempts to get in. Meta Knight's moves are fast enough to prevent a late airdodge and to recover before Wario can do something. U-Air rarely comes into play because anytime it could hit, Meta Knight should just glide/Tornado to safety. A smart Meta Knight should almost never be getting hit by F-Smash or U-Air outside of a good low-percent string from Wario, IMO.

Grab deals ~14% and resets the situation. Outside of being the most damaging we'll get most of the time, it's often better to D-Tilt, as it's faster, has comparable range, and kind of sets up for reasonable pressure.

Glide is a good mix-up within those usually-safe aerial options, though--If I read a D-Air, THAT'S when you take a U-Air you shouldn't be taking.

Running in and retreating F-Air is exactly the kind of walling I'm talking about. When I said "don't move forward," I mean more along the lines of "don't ever put yourself at risk if you can help it." Being unpredictable is important because if you go on autopilot, it's not terribly difficult to get the two hard reads needed to get in. It's all about going in at just the right time where you're using just the wrong move, and that's much harder when Meta Knight usually has eight right moves and one or two wrong moves in most situations in this matchup. As a result, it doesn't matter if I deal 30% per trade (well, it does, but, I don't, hahah), since I've taken 50% on average trying to get inside in the first place, and then Meta Knight can easily go back to neutral position whenever he wants.

 

[BSP]

Get Jnig in on this Wario v MK talk

 

[Okuser]

I summon jnig.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If ZSS' defensive options are good it's mainly because of her froll and her dash speed (ie run away pivot sideB/nB). I suppose uair OoS, jump OoS and jab1 are all decent-good defensive options as well.

Her back roll is so bad that I actually consider it a decent mixup since nobody expects it LOL
Her spotdodge is okay but she doesn't have the CQC to back it up. Snake has the same spotdodge but it's a lot safer to spotdodge with him because you have to worry about his jab, tilts (except not really dtilt) and grab...and nades.

BRB dreaming about ZSS' ftilt being 2-3 frames faster.

 

[Lord Chair]

It would still be largely inferior to dtilt.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I like ftilt, there are times dtilt won't quite reach and ftilt is the only choice. It's rare but I do use it sometimes.