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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Myollnir

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So Diddy vs DDD is -1? That's pretty cool for DDD.

The fact that I thought DDD-MK was -3 possibly made my opinion about DDD worse than now. I didn't realized it was "only" -2.

Still, imo he shouldn't be any higher on the tier list (maybe Lucario? I don't know, having a -3 against ICs and -2 against MK/Olimar is still pretty bad since they're arguably the best characters in the game). :(

Oh and while I'm at it, can the D-throw pivot grab infinite be mastered?
 

Delta-cod

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MU evaluations consider play at top/high level, but they should factor in human error as well. If not, then MK should +2 everyone and +3 everyone else, 'cause you know, everyone is not everyone else. :p
Regarding the first sentence: Yes. When I look at MUs, I try to factor in reasonable human error, allowing for reads/hard punish moves to actually have potential validity because it's possible that it'll happen eventually.

Looking at the ICs specifically though, I feel like Yoshi has the options to easily avoid making the mistakes that actually matter against the ICs: the ones that get you grabbed. I don't really care if I messed up a B reverse while landing and get Uair'd for it because that doesn't cause me to lose my stock. It is entirely within reason for Yoshi to not get grabbed by ICs at all.

Regarding the rest of what you said: Wat.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Nobody asks for that much, bubba. Just tell me - if you were to use my methodology - how would you prove that Marth does **** Peach? You claim it to be the case so the burden of proof is on you.

:059:
 

bubbaking

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I don't watch results even nearly as closely as you, so I really couldn't. I just look at the reasoning and it makes perfect sense to me.

Damn you must have gotten a lot better lately. Good job.
Thanks! :) Yeah, I've been putting a lot of hours in practicing with the gang here, even though Brawl is actually generally looked down upon at Stony Brook (but not as much as P:M). :bee: I'm also moderating our university's PR, but unfortunately, I'm not #1, or even #2 (I was #2 until recently). #1 is John12346 and #2 is this pretty decent Olimar main whom I can only beat with Marth (DarkPikmin), and since my heart and soul isn't really with Marth, weeeelllll.... :( #3 is me, but just you wait! I'll be #1 someday..... :cool: Thanks for the compliment, though! :awesome:

#SoakingItUp
 

bubbaking

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I'm sorry man, I've gotta break it to ya........... Your avatar's pretty sloppy :c

Nice to know. :3

I'm thinking the MU v3 will come out before TL v8...
That would actually be good, since it would mean that the newer, more relevant MU chart would be factored into the latest tier list.

This is way late, but ICs don't lose to :yoshi2:, :toonlink:, :zerosuitsamus:, :peach:. They probably lose to :rob: or go even, but they definitely don't lose to the first 4 characters. Unless you're talking about mid-level play.
Ooooohhhhhhhhhh SNAP! :reverse:

Since it's obvious that you're overestimating peach/trolling I doubt that I'd actually ever give you the pleasure of debating me in this matchup, which I am far more knowledgeable in than you.
Wow... :scared: Uhhh, you'd give me the pleasure of debating with you, right? I mean, I actually wouldn't right now, but still, the more you know... :p
 

| Big D |

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@Big D : I'm looking forward to seeing the next matchup chart then. :)

As I said, DDD is only one of my seconds. Meaning I don't know anything about his bad matchups, my opinion is based on what I've read. Forgive my ignorance. Can you develop your post though?

Obviously, I'm not asking you to do so because I want to deny what you're saying/prove you wrong (as I said I'm not experienced with DDD against the characters we're talking about), so it doesn't matter if you're inaccurate or something. I'm just curious and interested. :)
Dedede's only -2s are :diddy::metaknight::olimar::falco::zerosuitsamus: with :popo: being -3.

:diddy: Been discussed, but everyone has done work.

:olimar: Vex almost beat Rich Brown at Sktar and Coney has wins on Logic. Not to mention I almost beat Dabuz in a friendly :troll:
:falco: Vex did work vs Keitaro and I believe 4God did work vs Xaltis and Seibrik.

:zerosuitsamus: Atomsk did take a game off Salem before switching to Falco and 2 stocked Mr. R's ZSS which I believe took games off Ally or at least went last hit at Impulse (wasn't recorded)

:popo: Ive seen 4GOD beat Esam's ICs but that was a long time ago, I think Coney has a recent win on Lux.

:metaknight: Not much to say here, MK is dumb. Coney did take a game off Otori though and Isotaku came 7th at a Japan national stacked with Ice Climbers and Meta Knights.

Dedede doesn't really get invalidated by anything, but the risk/reward and RPS game are skewed in the opponents favour which makes the MU bad, but Dedede lives a long time which amends for some of it.
 

da K.I.D.

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If you really feel that theorizing matchups is that bad/ineffective...

How do you propose we go about figuring out the Sonic:Lucas matchup or the Sonic:GaW matchup? Matchups that, to my knowledge, havent been played out at a high level since AT LEAST mid-2010?
 

Espy Rose

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Does ESAM become an outlier again? Does the fact that he covers Pika with ICs hurt Pika's position at all? I'd think it would.
What other Pikachus have been successful in tournament lately? :applejack:
 

bubbaking

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Oh, gotcha! My apologies...

Does ESAM become an outlier again?
Ugh, that pissed me off SO much! The BBR claims to factor top/high level experience and results for the MU chart and the tier list, but they totally ignored the best Pika for pretty much everything that wasn't Pika:MK. I remember arguing about this when the current tier list just came out; even ESAM was like, "I don't get why my say on my character has no effect. I'm the best Pika! My say should be super effective!!!"

#Puns
 

Seagull Joe

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If you really feel that theorizing matchups is that bad/ineffective...

How do you propose we go about figuring out the Sonic:Lucas matchup or the Sonic:GaW matchup? Matchups that, to my knowledge, havent been played out at a high level since AT LEAST mid-2010?
:sonic: vs :lucas: is +1 :lucas:. PF vs Speed is all the evidence I need. Lasting hitboxes and being mobile really hurts :sonic: in the long run vs :lucas:.
^ Or the Bowser vs. Anything MUs?
My opinion.

:018:
 

infiniteV115

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:zerosuitsamus: Atomsk did take a game off Salem before switching to Falco and 2 stocked Mr. R's ZSS which I believe took games off Ally or at least went last hit at Impulse (wasn't recorded)
More like Waddle Dee took a game off of Salem
And I'm fairly certain Mr.R's ZSS didn't take a game off of Ally at IMPULSE, though he did come close...
But to be fair, there's like no evidence that Mr.R has experience in the ZSS:DDD MU (at least, against a good DDD). I've seen him use it against Orion's DDD, but.....yeah....
 

bubbaking

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Nobody asks for that much, bubba. Just tell me - if you were to use my methodology - how would you prove that Marth does **** Peach? You claim it to be the case so the burden of proof is on you.
Apparently, even Peach's strongest defender thinks it is a bad MU for Peach:
Peach vs Marth is bad. Marth has a solid advantage.
I'm gonna extrapolate and assume that solid = +2, because +1 is barely an advantage at all.

who are the hard characters to fight despite their spot on the list?
I really hate fighting Oli, but he's really high on the tier list, so I guess he doesn't count. I also really dislike fighting Lucario and Ike. I guess my dislikes are based on who I play against frequently.

i've been thinking of changing my main. one with good mix ups and doesnt need much to get good with. just experience. that might be a stupid request but still. i dont want mk because thats kinda cheap i think. getting good because he's good
Pick a Top Tier.

#TiersAreForQueers

That list was awesome! No one cares about fighting ZSS! :awesome: And people like fighting DK. :smirk:

-LzR- doesn't play Puff anymore afaik

That's a dumb-*** MU though
though not as bad as MK/Snake

I feel like Puff can handle any MU at top level except those two
I recall seeing a match between a high level Jiggs and a high level MK on one of MK's best stages (Brinstar). Funny thing is the game actually went to last stock, last hit, and the Puff was winning most of the time (although I think he lost in the end).

@ Marth vs. Peach: Imagine a situation where both chars use counter at the same time. In theory, whose animation would end earlier? I know it's not so much as a factor in the match-up, i'm just curious. =)
Can't one SDI the hits of Toad's spores at low %'s to actually punish Peach for landing a counter? I don't actually know, I'm just wondering...
 

Grim Tuesday

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Nairo doesn't know how to play the MU and probably wasn't trying cause he didn't need to.

I don't play on jank stages, but from my understanding of the MU, Brinstar is a good stage for Puff to choose - regardless of how good it usually is for MK.

The MU is awful cause MK can cover all of her options, all the time - including offstage and after being hit. Not even Snake can boast that.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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Oh, that was Nairo?

That shouldn't be hard as Peach has to use fair at a certain time before landing for it to be of any use and it's slow enough to be able to react to it with a practically 1 frame invincible move.
You mean frame 1. Sorry, this is a personal pet peeve of mine. When someone refers to invincibility that comes out on the very first frame, it should be referred to as "frame 1 invincibility". When a move only lasts for a frame, it's a "1 frame move". It's like the difference between a reverse B and a B-reversal. It sounds similar, but it's actually completely different.

#Nitpicking

Edit - Related fun fact: When stating the temperature, one should say, "It is X degrees Fahrenheit [or Celsius]." When stating a temperature change, or a difference between two temperatures, one should say, "The temperature rose X Fahrenheit degrees." The order means everything.....technically.

It's a bad idea. High risk low reward (unless peach is at kill %s, at which point it's high risk high reward)
If you do it right, you hit Peach with Dolphin Slash and unless you landed on the top BF platform/killed her/sent her far enough away, she can just come back and punish you with a fair or sideB or something.

If you don't do it right, you get faired...

Honestly counter is a better idea XD
But can't Marth use upB to avoid the possible grab from Peach that might be coming after the FC? You can't counter that and I don't think that Marth can do anything OoS to avoid the grab, other than roll or spot-dodge (maybe I'm wrong).

I might just leave things the way they are and let people think as they please. Even if I know deep down they are wrong on things. But i can't do anything about it. Might be best if I just gave up. And toss the goal I set out for aside. With all that said and time I spent. I actually feel horrible as a player and a person.
Don't give up, man! :( If anything, hold your goals for yourself. Try to get work done in tourneys and MMs. If you can't do it yourself, then find yourself an apprentice who can see value in what you're saying (but you've gotta be able to pull it off yourself, first).

Shaya, what do you think of :marth: - :diddy:? The chart has it as -1, but I think it's even. Marth has the tools to absolutely decimate :diddy:, but in practice it never seems to turn out that way. Would you concede to -1 or what?
About that "in practice" portion, I know I'm no high level player, but whenever I go Marth against Diddy (primarly Nuke's), I feel like I get messed up when I should have done way better. Diddy has tools that give him great shield pressure, and Marth, I feel, is kinda bad at escaping it. Like, if Marth can ever get Diddy cornered without bananas on hand, then he should just destroy him, but it's so hard to get that situation to happen consistently without screwing up and letting him escape and pull a 'naner, and once he does, life gets really hard. Marth has nice little attributes that make it so you never want to hit his shield, and that really helps him in a lot of MUs, but Diddy gets that free pressure once his banana's out. Meanwhile, Marth still isn't allowed to hit Diddy's shield so now he has to try to mindgame the heck out of Diddy's shield and either land that grab or Shield Breaker.

John's actually been telling me about a meta mindset (among many that he's 'advertised' to me :p ) that involves being ultra-reactionary to item play. I think that actually factored into him beating NinjaLink during the GF's of Impact. Rather than depend on regular evasion tactics, such as shields and dodges, one decides to catch everything possible. Perhaps that kind of skill and strategy makes a huge difference in the MU, but it seems extremely difficult. Sure, some of it is standard for competitive play, but to rely almost completely on that seems like it would require some beastly reaction time.

Edit: And I don't mean catching items in the air the easy way with a laxly timed AD. I mean catching everything on the ground or in the air with Z (or an appropriate attack for your situation, maybe AD if it's extremely necessary) so you can act in response as soon as possible.
 

infiniteV115

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Peach fair is apparently 0 (or -2 for Peach?) on block when timed perfectly, so even if we assume it's 0 then Marth can JC upB/roll/spotdodge/shieldgrab to avoid the grab (though assuming perfect timing from each player then whether Marth grabs Peach or vice-versa will be random since both grabs come out on frame 6)

But if Marth shieldgrabs then Peach can jab to beat that
But if Peach jabs Marth can just shield the jab and punish afterwards
But if Peach knows Marth is going to shield expecting the jab, she can just grab after the fair
etc etc

As you can see, it's an RPS situation. So there isn't really a good reason to DS after the upB because if you miss then Peach can punish with her ridiculously strong kill move that's going to be fresh because it never really lands in any other situation (usmash) or if Marth isn't at kill %s, she can just punish the landing lag with a fair...lol (or pretty much anything else if she wants to keep fair fresh, eg float cancelled nair/bair)

Again, the risk/reward isn't really worth it.
 

Iota

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I blame Dark.pch. Other than that Peach is an interesting character to talk about and is good enough that you should know your stuff about her imo. :happysheep:
 

Shaya

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Zoning aside, doesn't Marth's up-b more or less negate Peach's best trait, her awesome pressure game?
Kinda...
Explain this to me then.
You'd have to ask him personally about the turnips. Full hop down air from Peach is actually a lot faster than you'd expect and Marth's jumps are actually awkwardly spaced for him to try to hit you out of it, Marth can only back air to beat it and he needs to use both jumps.

Lately, I've been starting to rethink :marth: as a character. He seemse like a character with massive potential and strengths, lacks the representation to take him into that high level.

Also, Shaya, what do you think of :marth: - :diddy:? The chart has it as -1, but I think it's even. Marth has the tools to absolutely decimate :diddy:, but in practice it never seems to turn out that way. Would you concede to -1 or what?
Marth has all the tools (if not more than), but they're slightly less "broken" over all than Oli/diddy. The MU seems to be stemming towards even but I'd say for consistency purposes its a slight edge to Diddy.
 

bubbaking

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Oh and while I'm at it, can the D-throw pivot grab infinite be mastered?
No idea. I honestly don't think I'm gonna spend much time trying to learn this. I'm playing Melee, Brawl, and P:M competitively. If this SDR thing gets popular, I'll be jumping in that, too. In Brawl alone, I still have to work on SCSG and dthrow > JC usmash with DDD, so I don't think I'm gonna waste much time on an extremely hard tech that wouldn't raise my chances of winning tourneys much anyway.

Edit: Not to mention I'm also spending a pretty large amount of time playing UMvC3, SSFIV:AE2012, Skullgirls, and EFZ.

Regarding the rest of what you said: Wat.
What indeed... You just wanna know, don't you.....? :smirk:
 

Exceladon City

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:sonic: vs :lucas: is +1 :lucas:. PF vs Speed is all the evidence I need. Lasting hitboxes and being mobile really hurts :sonic: in the long run vs :lucas:.


My opinion.

:018:
I'd settle for even to +1 for Lucas as well. I've played the MU from both ends and it's pretty lame for both of them. Lucas can't approach Sonic very well and Sonic gets stuffed by alot of Lucas' moveset when he has to get in. Lucas also has an easier time killing Sonic
1. He can actually kill stuff.
2. Lucas can edgeguard Sonic pretty decently.

Sonic has to work for that kill against Lucas due to his ability to play keep away.
 

C.J.

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If you really feel that theorizing matchups is that bad/ineffective...

How do you propose we go about figuring out the Sonic:Lucas matchup or the Sonic:GaW matchup? Matchups that, to my knowledge, havent been played out at a high level since AT LEAST mid-2010?
You misunderstand me. I think that theorizing MUs is the BEST thing to do. I just think that there's a difference to the theorycraft that most people on SWF does and what the few do. Theorycraft done that way that the few do (Usually me, you, Espy, etc) tends to be incredibly accurate and does a phenomenal job of predicting the way that tourney results end up happening.

I feel that the majority of people that theorycraft have no place doing so and their theorycraft should be ignored.
 

da K.I.D.

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I talked to Vex earlier today, hes pretty much my go-to for any DDD related matters. And despite the fact that most people dont hear as much about him because hes not super active, even without seeing any of his recent stuff I know hes at least better than everyone not named coney or atomsk.

that being said, I asked him earlier today, and he told me that the reverse pivot grab infinite is too hard to do consistently on snake.
 

C.J.

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I dunno about better than all them, but he's definitely in the same tier as them.
 
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