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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Tesh

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His specials are more than good enough to provide him with the mobility he needs.
Thats fine, but its quite similar to saying "MK isn't slow in the air because he can tornado/glide/drill rush" . Its not like Wario/Puff/Marth mobility where you can actually move around with making a commitment/sacrifice.
people are saying sonic has no mobility?

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT

have you never seen a spinshot in your life or something?

In the air we have:

DownB giving us a hitbox as we fall and letting us accelerate instantly when we release it, not to mention shield cancelable if we land with it...
SideB letting us change momentum and giving us a small jump...
Spring to escape basically anything, to drop a hitbox below us...
Dair letting us get to the ground fast (though it's laggy if you don't spring first)...
Spinshot to get over people...
Moderately fast air speed...

...On the ground we have:

Fastest run speed in the game, gets across FD in 57 frames...
One of the fastest walks in the game (IIRC third after Marth and Fox)...
...And we can: SideB or DownB out of run to stop momentum...
SideB backwards out of run...
shield cancel SideB charge if not fully charged...
Spring to escape basically anything and to vertically chase, again...
pseudo-DD if we don't mind risking tripping (I forget what it's called)...
spinshot, again...
go multiple directions out of spins (vertical SDJ, horizontal SDR, diagonally with a SDJ, diagonally with a spinshot, diagonally with a non-spinshot jump)...

...and probably some other things I'm forgetting...

...and you're supposed to edgeguard us, wall us out, recover safely against us, and catch up to us how, exactly?

It's a miracle of balance that we aren't MK tier.
As stated above, all of those options fall into the same category of "bet you can't do that again!" . IIRC Wario can change direction 8 times in 1 full hop. That is good mobility. Sonic is sacrificing options for mobility by using a 1 time DJ, 1 time Up B, Dair which is risky if it doesnt land properly, or a spindash that commits to sacrificing your double jump or being stuck until you land if you already used it. Now while that sounds like alot of options, you can never use them all, so once one is committed to, you can't be all like "sonic has mobility!". Its not tremendously ****ty like Ganon/falcon options but this stuff isn't always stellar defensively.

But then he meets nair and all of Lucas's other good aerials that can actually combo into big damage. KID mentioned that Sonic never has to let Lucas get away. Well, in the same vein as KRDSonic's logic, "Why does Lucas need to get away?" He's perfectly capable of contending with Sonic, I feel.



Fixed that for ya. :troll:

Serious talk, MK's pretty darn mobile. His initial dash is really fast, his run is only a little slower, and his glide is fairly decent. His vertical air mobility is also pretty good thanks to fast jumps. His horizontal air mobility outside of gliding, though, is pretty bad, and he can't really make up for that with specials. His specials aren't like Sonic's, where they actually actively buff his mobility. It just so happens that they cover him with hitboxes.
I mean yea Lucas is alright close range. He has alot of quick moves and good coverage on his aerials. Being close enough to make PKF unsafe isn't the same as being in nair range. Sonic can beat all of Lucas' quick gounds/aerials with Bair. No one said its like Sonic vs Link/Ivysaur where sonic gets in easily then does whatever the hell he feels like.

5s and 10s is really no better than +3s and +4s, DMG.

@Tesh: Sonic's acceleration in the air is bad, but his top speed is not. Plus his accel is mitigated by the fact that he has spin dashes and upB in the air. :applejack:
When you folks said "mobility" I figured thats what you meant. As the conversation started about how Lucas can corner Sonic and cover his landings (which is true if a mistake has already been made).
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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Precise Numbers should be nothing more than expanding the +X system.

For me, 45:55 and 40:60 are -1
35:65 and 30:70 are -2
and so on.

All it does is differentiate between the difficulty of matches, kind of like the vertical lines scattered throughout the MU chart (in the individual matchup part)
 

DMG

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That would be fine, except people don't attribute the same "numbers" to the +/- system. Take your scale for example, there are plenty of people who label 6:4 MU's at +2 and people who only use +3 for 7:3 and harder.

If people can normally label MU's either by 10 points or 5, the +/- system does nothing new except group more than 1 MU rating into 1 number. It's less accurate, but makes it easier if two sides are disagreeing by a small margin since you can just sweep both numbers into -1 -2 etc
 

Tesh

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Why are precise numbers needed to describe each matchup? We don't treat the tier list that way.

Just order matchup within each tier of difficulty. We don't need a broken.5 to distinguish olimar from diddy kong.
 

Alacion

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Peach sucks and is a bad character. I see it now. Sonic is better then her.
Woah I never expected this from you.

Peach takes a huge amount of effort and it doesn't really pay off. She is also pretty draining to play.
 

da K.I.D.

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the last 2-3 pages is why the ratio system is ******** in smash.


ITS CALLED A RATIO FOR A GD REASON.

65-35 is a ratio. that means that if you perform the same experiment 100 times, 65 times you will get the one result and 35 times you will get the other result. THATS WHAT A RATIO IS

How people can translate that to 'the person with the advantage should win 100%' is beyond me.

And since with all the variables in smash is not possible to narrow matchups down to 'how will this matchup play out if we test it 10/100 times' the way they can in games like Street Fighter, which is where the ratio system came from, it doesn't make sense to use it.
 

Dark.Pch

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Woah I never expected this from you.

Peach takes a huge amount of effort and it doesn't really pay off. She is also pretty draining to play.
Thats cause I officially give up. and im not a good player. Eevryone is right. I keep blaming my loses cause I don't do what i am suppose to do in stead of blaming my character. So im'm just gonna go with what everyone says and thinks. There is no point in fighting or debating if I can'd do anything about.

I just give up. I don't have the will to fight or play anymore. So w/e people say on Peach or think a match up is, I won't do anything but agree.......

Which means I have no reason to play anymore.
 

Dark.Pch

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This is gonna get ugly. So I think I'll stop posting in this thread. Just carry on with w/e was going on here. This is not even the place to bring this up.....

Im sorry.
 

Alacion

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What! Don't quit. You shouldn't quit because of some drama in this silly thread :(
 

da K.I.D.

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grim is right though.

people that actually quit just leave.

when people make long drawn out posts about quitting, typically they are just salty about a recent loss or attention whoring, or both. Thats how 'see you next week' became an inside joke on AiB as a response to people whenever they made 'im quitting' blogs.
 

Tesh

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So... Trela didn't actually quit?
Trela is an actual smash celebrity. He should announce retirement. No one cares about most of those random *** people quitting. Dark Peach is notable for being really emo with a bit of potential using a ****ty character. We already have/had a really emo top player of a GOOD character.
 

bubbaking

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And this is why we dont use that system anymore
The current system doesn't make much sense either whenever we have tactical discussions here. +1 is practically so close to 0 in people's minds that they say that no one can depend on it and it doesn't matter much, but then +3 is practically the same as +4, so the only MU that's a solid advantage without destroying the other char is a +2. In that case, we might as well just have 0, +1, and +2.

Of course it sounds incorrect. A character winning 60:40 should win 10 out of 10 matches ideally. CPs/players/some randomness can net wins tho obviously.

Like, if people would say Diddy wins 6:4 vs Lucas I'd still say the Diddy should win all matches/10...

I don't get how one can really say it means you should win 6/10 matches...
^^^This.....kind of. I get what you're saying. If I play X character, and I meet a player who's about as skilled as I am with Y character, and X has a 65:35 MU against Y then I expect to win 10/10 sets, and out of those, I expect to win about 80% of all the games. As I said, factoring in stage strikes and bans, I’m probably going to be always winning. I see “65:35” as meaning something like, 65% of the time, X char has the advantage during a match, and 35% of the time, Y char has the advantage. I guess another way of putting it is, a certain amount of effort will get X char 65% of victory-related rewards as opposed to Y char’s 35% with the same amount of effort, or I could say that that X char’s traits and design ‘carry’ me for 65% of the match, and then I put only 35% player-based effort, while Y char’s traits carry him only 35% of the match, so he has to work much harder as a player to make up for the char difference. I don’t expect Y char to win 3/10 matches just because the ratio is 65:35. I expect my char to bring me 65% of the way to victory while my work as a player does the rest so that I win nearly every time. One can’t expect MU values to actually depict win ratios.
 

ShadowLink84

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But then he meets nair and all of Lucas's other good aerials that can actually combo into big damage. KID mentioned that Sonic never has to let Lucas get away. Well, in the same vein as KRDSonic's logic, "Why does Lucas need to get away?" He's perfectly capable of contending with Sonic, I feel.
Sonic is a character that unlike other characters, doesn't have to commit to anyone approach.
He can immediately cancel his movement and immediately move away.
Lucas does not have the tools to force Sonic to commit to an approach.

It is why Sonic is able to rush in and punish Lucas when he can, and immediately avoid punishment in the event you try to bait him.

This does not mean Sonic is able to force Lucas into making an error, but gnerally, Sonic is safe when he approaches Lucas.
It is part of why the match up is even, neither really has an advantage due to a lack of tools in forcing errors on the other's part.

IMO I think Sonic has a slight advantage but that is my ownbias.
 

ShadowLink84

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Of course it sounds incorrect. A character winning 60:40 should win 10 out of 10 matches ideally.
You're wrong.
Ratios already assume an ideal situation.
According to your statement, 7/3, 8/2 and 9/1 are redundant and have no place and defeats the purpose of having those ratios in the first place.

According to your statement, one would simply have a win/lose scenario and that is it.


The ratios simply mean that in an ideal world, X character would beat Y character % amount of the time. That is it.

Now part of the reason it does not work with Smash too well is because of the behavior of the stages and their influence on matchups.
This makes it much more difficult because you'd have to try and factor the effect of every single stage.

Personally I prefer the ratios.
 

Luco

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...and you're supposed to edgeguard us, wall us out, recover safely against us, and catch up to us how, exactly?

It's a miracle of balance that we aren't MK tier.
Dang, I so wanted you to say something about using the spring because I would have jumped on you so bad for that. Ah well, looks like the discussion has moved on to... the validity of ratings. :/

There was a lot of stuff to be discussed here, 'cept I was like the only Lucas main there and i'm not that great. Should've had J in here... :-c

Also, I prefer ratings rather than ratios. Looking at a -3 or so is so much easier to figure out for me than 65:35 or something like that.

Eh, that's just me.
 

bubbaking

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It's less accurate, but makes it easier if two sides are disagreeing by a small margin since you can just sweep both numbers into -1 -2 etc
I see this exact argument made with the exact same wording every time the MU values are brought up. :p

the last 2-3 pages is why the ratio system is ******** in smash.


ITS CALLED A RATIO FOR A GD REASON.

65-35 is a ratio. that means that if you perform the same experiment 100 times, 65 times you will get the one result and 35 times you will get the other result. THATS WHAT A RATIO IS

How people can translate that to 'the person with the advantage should win 100%' is beyond me.

And since with all the variables in smash is not possible to narrow matchups down to 'how will this matchup play out if we test it 10/100 times' the way they can in games like Street Fighter, which is where the ratio system came from, it doesn't make sense to use it.
I think you're interpreting our MU ratios wrong. Smash ratios aren't supposed to be read like SF ratios simply because Smash and SF are played very differently with very different goals in mind.

In SF, when Akuma:Blanka is 7:3, it means, "Akuma has a 70% chance of bringing Blanka's life down to 0 before Blanka does the same to Akuma." Therefore, you have Akuma winning 7/10 games and Blanka winning the rest. In Smash, X:Y being 7:3 should be interpreted, "X has a 70% chance of having the advantage at any one point during play. Y has the other 30%." Y may just take the lead or a stock during his 30% advantaged time or even during his 70% disadvantaged time. However, the chance of doing so repeatedly is notably less than 30%.

Now you see that the actual 'experiment' is being changed. In SF, the 'experiment' is who brings the opponent's health down to 0 first. In Smash, the 'experiment' is who has the advantage at any one given point in time during a match. Therefore, a single match actually collects a sample made of dozens of trials. If a DDD beats a Pikachu during a certain match, but it was observed that, out of 100 situations during the match, he was at a positional disadvantage 35% of the time, then that MU can be assumed to be 65:35 in Pika's favor. This is why chars like DK and Bowser can win in MUs that have been delegated to be "unwinnable". Even though the ratio reads "95:5" or "100:0", that simply means that they are at a disadvantage all the time. That doesn't mean that they can't take stocks or the lead while they're disadvantaged, and it doesn't mean that they're doomed to lose 100% of the time. Likewise, a char with a 70:30 MU can reasonably expect to win more than 70% of the time. This is the problem I have with labelled MU values, such as +/-4 being "unlose/winnable". There is no such thing as an unwinnable MU.

Edit: I'll leave it to you to figure out what I mean by this, 'cause I'm too sleepy. In statistics, probabilities that are 'stacked' on top of each other are multiplied. Therefore, a 70:30 MU should equate very close to a 100% winning ratio in practical applications. If someone replies to this post, I'll expand on this. (-_-)
 

Jimmy?

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The thing that ties Smash ratios and SF ratios together are the fact that they're ratios.

Saying they don't work the same isn't technically wrong, but that's because ratios don't work in Smash because of xyz, not because Brawl gets to arbitrarily decide to change what a ratio is.

There's no incorrect way to interpret a ratio unless you're just incapable of reading data.

BUT NONE OF THIS MATTERS SINCE THIS DISCUSSION IS POINTLESS BUT I WANTED TO POST SOMETHING KBYE.
 

Luco

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Btw when it comes to the whole dark peach leaving thing...

While he has made the post to advertise it, can you blame him for feeling dejected? He's gotten a lot of slack over the simple fact that he makes his posts like a page long and that he uses frame data to 'prove' people wrong. Well technically he IS proving them wrong, it's just in practice that never happens. And why? Because the link between frame data and what happens isn't as big as it's made out to be.

That said, it doesn't necessarily warrant people jumping on his back and telling him he's wrong. Plenty of people use frame data in this thread, in fact many people post longer and more frame data-filled posts than dark peach so I was honestly surprised when everyone started telling him to make shorter posts. it just bugged me when people started telling him his posts were too long and that was a reason to discard what he said. I do agree that him assuming that he was 'right' BECAUSE people didn't want to read it wasn't the best but that's about the only qualm I personally had with it.

I dunno. That's my personal opinion and I don't have a lot of previous experience with dark peach but that's how I feel from this thread. :-/
 

bubbaking

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The thing that ties Smash ratios and SF ratios together are the fact that they're ratios.

Saying they don't work the same isn't technically wrong, but that's because ratios don't work in Smash because of xyz, not because Brawl gets to arbitrarily decide to change what a ratio is.

There's no incorrect way to interpret a ratio unless you're just incapable of reading data.

BUT NONE OF THIS MATTERS SINCE THIS DISCUSSION IS POINTLESS BUT I WANTED TO POST SOMETHING KBYE.
Yes, all ratios are fractions. No one was saying that Brawl, or any game, changed that. That doesn't mean that they're all supposed to be interpreted the same way, because you can't do that in Smash. Ratios work in Smash, but they're not supposed to be interpreted in the same manner as ratios in other FGs. They're two different kinds of ratios. Two different types of values, if you will.
 

da K.I.D.

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who decided that and why and what purpose does that kind of ratio serve?

like, the entire concept of what you just described is asinine and completely moronic.
 

SoulPech

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I prefer the ratio system over the +/- system. I feel it gives a more accurate rating than +/-. Also, There are some MUs I feel cannot be a solid + or -. For example, I feel the Mario/Jiggs MU is 55:45 Mario, but the current it's +1 Mario. It's probably my interpretation of reading it, but it seems like the +1 feels like it's a 60:40 or a 65:35, which I disagree with.

:phone:
 

Iota

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I can see +1 being 60:40 but there's no way it's 65:35...that's far too one sided to be considered a slight advantage. :happysheep:
 

da K.I.D.

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Stop trying to relate the matchup systems to each other.

We've been saying this since it came out. Is it really that hard?

0 = Even
1 = Slight Advantage
2 = Solid/Strong Advantage
3 = One-Sided Matchup
4 = Unwinnable.

We just got finished establishing that Smash has too many variables to assign ratios to matchups, so why is it so hard for people to peel themselves away from that concept?
 

Iota

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The ratio system was used for the majority of Smash's life span. It's probably going to take awhile before people finally stop comparing them. :happysheep:
 

da K.I.D.

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thats because they took it from street fighter, but it apparently didnt take very long at all for people to completely subvert the meaning of a 'matchup ratio' from the subject matter that they got it from.
 

Espy Rose

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I'm just going to +1 what KID's been saying.

Stop trying to translate between the two systems we've used for match ups. It does you no good to try and find solid, interchangeable definitions between the values that have been distributed. :applejack:
 

da K.I.D.

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have you ever played or watched any other games?

when people say 'Ryu:Akuma is a 6:4 matchup' (just an example) what does it sound like they are refering to?

Even if smash is the only game you play, the meaning of a matchup ratio seems like it should be common sense to me. All this stuff that people are coming up with like 'how many times each character wins the neutral or has the positional advantage' seems like just cop out BS people came up with after the fact to back their ideas.
 

Iota

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I always just translated the ratios in my head as "this character should be winning more frequently, as frequently, or less frequently than the opponent" or "this character has x advantage over the other char". I watch other games and I've tried to play Street Fighter but I never really payed attention to the match up stuff since I know I'm probably never gonna be good at the game. :happysheep:
 

Luigi player

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But how can you say to some MUs that they're 60:40 when they're clearly supposed to be in one characters favor? :( (as seen in the 6:4)

To me it just means that one character has an advantage... (55:45 = very small adv., 60:40 advantage, 65:45 big adv., etc)

I guess I'm glad we don't have it anymore since people understand it so differently.


If I'd see it as how often characters win I'd see Diddys MUs as:

Mario: 99:1
Luigi: 97:3
Peach: 98:2
Bowser: 99:1

DK: 97:3
Diddy: 50:50
Yoshi: 97:3
Wario: 70:30

Link: 99:1
Sheilda: 91:9
Ganondorf: 99:1
Toon Link: 96:4

Samus: 99:1
ZSS: 65:35
Pit: 92:8
ICs: 60:40
ROB: 95:5

Kirby: 98:2
MK: 43:57
Dedede: 94:6
Olimar: ~50:50

Fox: 91:9
Falco: ~50:50
Wolf: 91:9
....
etc. I think you know where I'm going with this...


If a character has an advantage he should win almost all the time. Unless it's just a small one.
 
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