Official BBR Tier List v7

[pidgezero_one]

Quick question: When you DQ someone in WF/LF/GF, does that also 'disqualify' the player from receiving money?

I don't think it should, personally. If they earned their way there without cheating, aren't they entitled to that money? Or should they also lose their money on principle of disrespect?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I would say no, they still get the money. They got to the point where they could make money by the rules, so why take away what they already earned?

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

You're only a troll if I say you are.
For now, you're a Pidgey.

Did he?

Ah, but he could have.
Which is the point of my statement.

New rule for Apex 2014: We will DQ people based on what we think they could do.

Cute, where did I suggest that?
Ctrl+F, possible strawman found.

Who cares? If they want to play it out, let them play it out, unless you're borderline running late.

Too bad so sad.
Enforce the rule and send a clear message.

You don't get to tell the stream what it wants dude.

The stream does not say how the tournament should be run.
Stream < Tournament.

You should be essentially forfeiting if you do something that's against the rules. Personally I don't care if M2K was DQed or just sent to loser's. What I'm arguing is that ending the match right then and there is pointless.

How is it pointless when it sends a clear message about rule breaking?
Perhaps you see it as pointless because it was the final match.
I disagre.
It is because it is the grand finals that it is more relevant, cheating becomes that much more of a red flag.
Grand finals is supposed to represent the 1337 of the elite.
If they're pulling illegal moves during grand finals?
Yeah, doesn't look very good.

No it doesn't. I guarantee you that more people would have taken away disappointment at the match ending early than there are MK's sitting in their basements practicing their IDCs for Apex 2014.

The short term whining < Long term assurance that the top players aren't going to do something illegal.

Then DQ him after the match if the players still want to keep playing.

Um.
No. You DQ him when it happens.
Not before, not after, when it happens.

You don't smack your dog with the newspaper 10 minutes after he craps on your carpet do you?

Yeah, I know I for one totally plan on CGing past 300% next Apex now that I know I can get away with it. I'm a DDD secondary and am friends with Alex after all.

I would not be surprised.

Lol, this is just dumb now.

ShadowLink being mad braindead, using arguments that never even happened.

Don't be stupid just because you don't like the fact I disagree with you.
Only children get an attitude.

Pls, find another instance of M2K EVER using IDC in tournament since it was initially banned. EVER. Even if its like, 5 years old, pls.[/COLOR]

I need to find that 1000 facepalm jpeg.
Seriously, because I cannot believe that people within the smash community would be so intentionally stupid as to try andargue that M2K has NEVER done the IDC in the past.

I would say no, they still get the money. They got to the point where they could make money by the rules, so why take away what they already earned?

Um...because they cheated essentially?
Hey professor, I should really have not been flunked on my test for cheating.
I only tried to copy the answers on the last question!

 

[swordgard]

Actually there are many issues with the cging past 300% rule (such as slow cg from bowser on wario or yoshi on wario pummeling once every hit and then stopping stalling as long as 8 minutes easily on static stages).

 

[bubbaking]

Another question: I thought caught cheating resulted in forfeit matches/sets, not forfeit.........tournaments. This doesn't change my stance on calling out cheating when you see it, but is that really how it works?

And yes it does dq them from money.

OK, thanks!

I don't think it should, personally. If they earned their way there without cheating, aren't they entitled to that money? Or should they also lose their money on principle of disrespect?

Disrespect, but eh, I don't really have a stance here. That's why I asked. I just want the match to be stopped and a verdict to be given immediately.

I would say no, they still get the money. They got to the point where they could make money by the rules, so why take away what they already earned?

Because DISRESPECT, son!

 

[pidgezero_one]

Ah, but he could have.
Which is the point of my statement.


Cute, where did I suggest that?
Ctrl+F, possible strawman found.

Alright then, whatever you say buddy.

Too bad so sad.
Enforce the rule and send a clear message.

You send a clear message by DQing him after the match. What part of this is so hard to understand?

The stream does not say how the tournament should be run.
Stream < Tournament.

Of course it doesn't. You still DQ when the match is over. Nothing is affected.

How is it pointless when it sends a clear message about rule breaking?
Perhaps you see it as pointless because it was the final match.
I disagre.
It is because it is the grand finals that it is more relevant, cheating becomes that much more of a red flag.
Grand finals is supposed to represent the 1337 of the elite.
If they're pulling illegal moves during grand finals?
Yeah, doesn't look very good.

No, I'm saying it's pointless because if he's going to be DQed either way, you still get the message across. If anything it'd be an even bigger kick in the balls to think you get away with it, win a match, get excited, and then get told you're DQed. But I don't care about kicking people in the balls, I care about optimizing community interest in your tournament when the end result is going to be the same anyway.

The short term whining < Long term assurance that the top players aren't going to do something illegal.

Then DQ them. Announce it to the stream when it happens if you want.

Um.
No. You DQ him when it happens.
Not before, not after, when it happens.

You don't smack your dog with the newspaper 10 minutes after he craps on your carpet do you?

Are you sure you understand cognitive differences between humans and dogs? Your dog probably doesn't remember 10 minutes later that it **** on your carpet.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Less **** riding please.

wtf are you talking about? You claim that he's done it before, in bracket, at tournaments without showing where it happened and don't expect people to ask for proof? Are you crazy?

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ This.

Um...because they cheated essentially?
Hey professor, I should really have not been flunked on my test for cheating.
I only tried to copy the answers on the last question!

If you are in a class and you do all the work keeping a good grade up until the test on said segment, which is a big portion of your grade (IE the final games of a tournament, as thats the 'big portion' of the money), then you flunk the test, do you still get credit for all the work/assignments you did prior, or does only the test count?

You still get credit for all the work you did prior. Just because you screwed up the test doesnt mean you insta fail the entire class.

 

[pidgezero_one]

If you are in a class and you do all the work keeping a good grade up until the test on said segment, which is a big portion of your grade (IE the final games of a tournament, as thats the 'big portion' of the money), then you flunk the test, do you still get credit for all the work/assignments you did prior, or does only the test count?

You still get credit for all the work you did prior. Just because you screwed up the test doesnt mean you insta fail the entire class.

That actually depends on the educational institution. Plagiarizing/cheating is an auto-flunk at my school.

Clearly then it should be up to the individual TO.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well every educational institution Ive ever been to does what I described ;p

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's more like you crashed your car to a public lamp, but it was already damaged/wasn't working anyway.
You get a punishment but isn't too harsh or jail-worthy because it was inconsequential.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Well every educational institution Ive ever been to does what I described ;p

To be fair, my school is arguably the most hard-***** in Canada.

But it's Canada, so that probably isn't a helpful descriptor

 

[bubbaking]

If you are in a class and you do all the work keeping a good grade up until the test on said segment, which is a big portion of your grade (IE the final games of a tournament, as thats the 'big portion' of the money), then you flunk the test, do you still get credit for all the work/assignments you did prior, or does only the test count?

You still get credit for all the work you did prior. Just because you screwed up the test doesnt mean you insta fail the entire class.

Actually, in some classes in some universities (including the one I went to, which was one of the largest and most prominent universities in NY before you start hating on it), if you're caught cheating on certain important assignments/tests/etc., you're given an automatic 0 for the entire course. No lie. You cheat, you automatically fail. This was particularly common with finals.

That actually depends on the educational institution. Plagiarizing/cheating is an auto-flunk at my school.

Clearly then it should be up to the individual TO.

This, lolz! In all honesty though, every "individual TO" should be giving everyone some form of an expectation for this sort of thing by putting exactly what they would do in the 'rulebook' on their tourney threads.

 

[B0NK]

^ This.



If you are in a class and you do all the work keeping a good grade up until the test on said segment, which is a big portion of your grade (IE the final games of a tournament, as thats the 'big portion' of the money), then you flunk the test, do you still get credit for all the work/assignments you did prior, or does only the test count?

You still get credit for all the work you did prior. Just because you screwed up the test doesnt mean you insta fail the entire class.

If you get caught doing that you get kicked out of my college, and likely won't be accpeted into any other.

This is true for almost every college in the US as far as I know.

This is a horrible example.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry Z, but he's right.

 

[pidgezero_one]

This, lolz! :rotlf: In all honesty though, every "individual TO" should be giving everyone some form of an expectation for this sort of thing by putting exactly what they would do in the 'rulebook' on their tourney threads.

That'd be ideal, wouldn't it? But it's hard to know exactly what you're going to do beforehand without actually being in the situation or seeing any extenuating circumstances (ie "if you're 5 mins late to a match you will be DQed" could easily become "if you're 2 mins late to a match you will be DQed because we're running late and the venue is closing").

 

[bubbaking]

Respectable opinion. I agree.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Alright then, whatever you say buddy.

okay bud

You send a clear message by DQing him after the match. What part of this is so hard to understand?

I think you're failing to understand the words you spat out earlier.
It is not just a matter of enforcing a rule for the sake of enforcement.
It is the message that is sent at the same time.
By DQing someone when they ul an illegal move it suggest there is no tolerance.
When you DQ them AFTER the set has been played, it creates the image of the win being robbed from the cheater, even though they were in the wrong.

It also cheapens the victory of the person who has now gained the victory.

Of course it doesn't. You still DQ when the match is over. Nothing is affected.

Read above.

No, I'm saying it's pointless because if he's going to be DQed either way, you still get the message across. If anything it'd be an even bigger kick in the balls to think you get away with it, win a match, get excited, and then get told you're DQed. But I don't care about kicking people in the balls, I care about optimizing community interest in your tournament when the end result is going to be the same anyway.

You realize that it is a bigger kick in the nuts, suggest that you care for community interest, but still suggest DQing them after the match.

Sounds like a contradiction.

Then DQ them. Announce it to the stream when it happens if you want.

Less skimming, its been stated before thats what should be done.

Are you sure you understand cognitive differences between humans and dogs?

Do you...live under a rock or something?

Another question: I thought caught cheating resulted in forfeit matches/sets, not forfeit.........tournaments. This doesn't change my stance on calling out cheating when you see it, but is that really how it works?

It depends on the TO.
For some TO's it can vary from light or severe depending on the "crime" committed.
So for example, pausing during a match can result in forfeiting the match.
Pausing again can result in a lost set.

In this case I would argue IDC should be a loss of the entire set flat out, just because of how it can affect a match and how difficult it is to catch.
Some may feel it should be a forfeit of the entire tournament.

I know for sure they don't get money if it happens though.
Or they shouldn't

^ This.

Hardly, I would expect anyone with a half working brain to be able to recall the times he has done it in the past as well as being capable of using the search topic, asking the various TO's.

I do NOT need to prove something that is already factual.
Ask ANY of the SBR members from the last 4 to 5 years about it and they'll probably be able to support it.

Heck we even had topics regarding the issue iirc. Right swordgard?

If you are in a class and you do all the work keeping a good grade up until the test on said segment, which is a big portion of your grade (IE the final games of a tournament, as thats the 'big portion' of the money), then you flunk the test, do you still get credit for all the work/assignments you did prior, or does only the test count?

You still get credit for all the work you did prior. Just because you screwed up the test doesnt mean you insta fail the entire class.

I asked pidge earlier but...do you live under a rock?
You...do realize that in almost every single college, being caught cheating is an automatic F within the class not counting the other penalties that may occur.

 

[bubbaking]

It's more like you crashed your car to a public lamp, but it was already damaged/wasn't working anyway.
You get a punishment but isn't too harsh or jail-worthy because it was inconsequential.

This is an even worse example, lolz.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It's more like you crashed your car to a public lamp, but it was already damaged/wasn't working anyway.
You get a punishment but isn't too harsh or jail-worthy because it was inconsequential.

Please stop...

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol yeah, that was a bad example once I think over it more...

A better one is more like:

Say you have a job and have been working at your agreed wage without any problems for 3 months. During those 3 months (or in this case, the entire bracket and pools of the tournament), you do your work as told in your contract, but soon after, you try to cheat the business out of money and get caught. You get fired (IE DQd) and cant work there anymore, but you still get a paycheck for when you did your work correctly.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Hardly, I would expect anyone with a half working brain to be able to recall the times he has done it in the past as well as being capable of using the search topic, asking the various TO's.

The search function is broken for one, and if I've never seen or heard of him doing it how am I supposed to remember the times he's done it?

 

[bubbaking]

Hey guys, I revived this thread.

































You're welcome.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ty ;p

 

[bubbaking]

Say you have a job and have been working at your agreed wage without any problems for 3 months. During those 3 months (or in this case, the entire bracket and pools of the tournament), you do your work as told in your contract, but soon after, you try to cheat the business out of money and get caught. You get fired (IE DQd) and cant work there anymore, but you still get a paycheck for when you did your work correctly.

I was actually thinking of this very example when you mentioned the school one but I didn't want to say anything and help your cause.

Makes sense, though.

The only problem is that after being fired, you're not allowed to work in similar jobs and you have a very serious stain on your work history, making it extremely difficult to be hired, even by unsimilar jobs. Are you saying that, after being caught cheating and DQ'd, players should be 'blacklisted' from entering other notable tourneys? Along that note:

#FreeUnknown

 

[ぱみゅ]

Dammit america and your rules.
No wonder some of you expect TOs to be steelcold strict.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The search function is broken for one, and if I've never seen or heard of him doing it how am I supposed to remember the times he's done it?

Ah right, your account is Feb 2012 so you were not around nearly long enough.
Rest assured, he's done it.
Don't question something that is a fact.

Lol yeah, that was a bad example once I think over it more...

A better one is more like:

Say you have a job and have been working at your agreed wage without any problems for 3 months. During those 3 months (or in this case, the entire bracket and pools of the tournament), you do your work as told in your contract, but soon after, you try to cheat the business out of money and get caught. You get fired (IE DQd) and cant work there anymore, but you still get a paycheck for when you did your work correctly.

<_<

Actually if you are caught trying to cheat the business out of money you get fired, get no paycheck, and probably get prosecuted by the law for unethical business practices or something.

Just...stop.

Dammit america and your rules.
No wonder some of you expect TOs to be steelcold strict.

I am a naturally draconic person.

Not really...I am actually really nice I swear.
Ask members of the SBR who met up with me.

Hell during Apex 2009 they were all laughing because I didn't know they were SBR members when we went to get lunch.
At least I think it was 2009.
Might have been 2010 or 2011.

 

[bubbaking]

@Kyokoro: What can I say? We're the "home of the brave" (and the land of the free).

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think you're failing to understand the words you spat out earlier.

What, about how the supposed rule of quitting the match on the spot is about enforcing for the sake of enforcement? No, I understand that completely, it's inconsequential to the message you're trying to get across.

By DQing someone when they ul an illegal move it suggest there is no tolerance.
When you DQ them AFTER the set has been played, it creates the image of the win being robbed from the cheater, even though they were in the wrong.

Except they're not being robbed, especially when they know they've lost when it happens. This is exactly what I've been saying from the very start with giving the players the option to keep playing if they want to put on a show. Go ahead and tell them they've lost. Tell the stream and the audience they've lost. Who cares? It's not like there's any kind of rules against streaming matches of no consequence.

It also cheapens the victory of the person who has now gained the victory.

Winning because your opponent was DQed on the spot does the same thing. This is not even a considerable issue.

You realize that it is a bigger kick in the nuts, suggest that you care for community interest, but still suggest DQing them after the match.

Sounds like a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction because the decision to DQ someone during or after a match is inconsequential. If matches need to be stopped immediately, we might as well hire dedicated refs to count ledgegrabs so they can stop the match immediately when 50 is hit instead of waiting for the results screen to see if 50 was hit or not.

Do you...live under a rock or something?

Yes, I must live under a rock for not knowing that you're an expert on dog psychology, and dogs apparently understand delayed consequences like humans do instead of just forgetting they did something at all.

 

[bubbaking]

I think now is a good time to ask if people still think I'm Doc King.

Pidge, that sig of yours becomes truer and truer every time you post here.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I was actually thinking of this very example when you mentioned the school one but I didn't want to say anything and help your cause.

Makes sense, though.

The only problem is that after being fired, you're not allowed to work in similar jobs and you have a very serious stain on your work history, making it extremely difficult to be hired, even by unsimilar jobs. Are you saying that, after being caught cheating and DQ'd, players should be 'blacklisted' from entering other notable tourneys? Along that note:

#FreeUnknown

Are you suggesting we bring back red carding?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Pidge, that sig of yours becomes truer and truer every time you post here.

Yeah, what am I at now, 10-15 semi-serious posts? This is insane.

 

[bubbaking]

No. I suggest you delete all of your previous posts. You're not supposed to be doing this.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ah right, your account is Feb 2012 so you were not around nearly long enough.
Rest assured, he's done it.
Don't question something that is a fact.

See, I never actually questioned that he's done it, I simply asked for proof. Which you still haven't provided. Saying something is a fact doesn't make it a fact, especially when talking to somebody with no prior knowledge on the subject.

It's kind of like going up to somebody who's never experienced competitive Brawl and telling them that MK is the best character in the game, then when they ask why you respond by saying "Because he is, don't question it. It's an established fact"

 

[pidgezero_one]

No. I suggest you delete all of your previous posts. You're not supposed to be doing this.

I'm not deleting my posts. Ain't nobody got time for that

I found out about this little trick on vBulletin though where you can delete someone else's posts. You can try it if you like.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not deleting my posts. Ain't nobody got time for that

I found out about this little trick on vBulletin though where you can delete someone else's posts. You can try it if you like.

The trap is obvious. You're going to have to be more clever than that, Pidge.

 

[pidgezero_one]

BTW does anyone in here know how to install custom firmware on a router? Mine keeps bricking.

 

[pidgezero_one]

The trap is obvious. You're going to have to be more clever than that, Pidge.

Fun fact: I actually have this video looping in the background every time I make a post on here.

 

[bubbaking]

Such topic changes are not allowed. Ok, I'll stop.

Edit: Lolz, really?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Such topic changes are not allowed. Ok, I'll stop.

Edit: Lolz, really?

Darn, and I almost lured this thread off-topic yet again.