Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Xephalon]

since L-canceling and WDing has been removed. will Low tiers have no chance of winning now?

 

[Ripple]

Ice climbers=Just because IC's don't have their wavedash, I don't think they should really be in low tier, they are still great without chaingrabs too with one grab they can still combo really well. YOu can decide whatever, but I think they should still be atleast high-mid tier. Thier FS is good Too.
Yoshi= Even though he lost his DJC he got a nice buff by getting a little height iin his UpB move, I think Yoshi should get about low mid tier, and his FS rocks
DK= sucks alot worse then melee and his FS could be alot better, only way I can see it work is with edge guarding

I fail to see why you think dk sucks more than he did in melee, he has received nothing but buffs. look at his down b, possibly the most broken attack besides a few others(like 3), AND it shouldn't matter what his FS is if your a competative player. NO ITEMS

back on topic, I think it would probably be easiest to start with the worst and work up

Very bottem= ness, samus?(seen no play but I hear terrible), zss

 

[ResidentWaffle]

Maybe this would help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QS0rlglH8c&feature=user
watch the whole entire set . This a good reason for both marth and pit being at least high tier.

 

[Patinator]

At Ripple:

Well, the use of Smash Balls is a heavily debated topic amongst tournament makers. I'd love for them to be allowed, but on very low or low frequency.

 

[D.A.N.]

I just don't see how Smash Balls can work competitively at all. It would be like any other item. Once it appears people take their focus off each other and begin whacking the ball. I'm not sure I have to bring up how unbalanced they are. Compare Metaknight's FS to Marths. It just can't work.

 

[Patinator]

Well, it's a bit of a competition just opening the Smash Ball. I realize Final Smashes can be deadly or deadly. To the user, that is. IE, DK.

But still, tournaments also must deal with Pity Final Smashes, bringing up a rarer but still present incident.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

High tier characters?

Wolf, Lucas, Fox, Falco, ROB, Marth, Lucario look to be somewhere on the top. Meta-Knight, Sheik, and Pit look like they're good and fast characters but cheap.

 

[S2]

Well, it's a bit of a competition just opening the Smash Ball. I realize Final Smashes can be deadly or deadly. To the user, that is. IE, DK.

But still, tournaments also must deal with Pity Final Smashes, bringing up a rarer but still present incident.

I don't think pity FS are going to be that big of a deal. If someone gets into a position where they recieve one, they are probably too far behind to make a comeback. Besides, how many stocks behind do you have to be to get a pity FS? Or is it by losing a certain amount of lives in a short time.... either way, 1 FS doesn't close a 2+ life gap.

If smashballs are left on, then the pity FS will just be part of the game. People will figure out what conditions they exactly are given for and it'll be the player's responsibilty to know that info.

 

[Tonb3rry]

Game & Watch has always been my favourite character in Melee. I've always loved his moveset, but, due strong weaknesses, he's never been my main. I was kinda forced to go Falco.

Since I've always loved G&W, he has been the character I've tried most in Brawl, and I must say he got quite a lot buffed. Heavier, better shield(could it possibly be worse?), super-buffed d-smash, and got more combo potential. Also he's in avarage faster. He won't be a low tier anymore, that's for sure. Though I doubt he will be a top tier(but got the potential). He's my Brawl main now, at least =)

 

[Sariku]

You know if a Moderator didn't make this thread, it would be closed.

Ike and Marth? -shrug-

 

[Patinator]

@ Luke Groundwalker: Yeah, well, cheap means high tier.

 

[Xyro77]

Although this game is more balanced than all th past smash games. Marth(range, tip damage,speed) and lucario(more u get hit the stronger you become) will be extremly high on the list.

 

[Omni]

Talking about Tiers before the game has come out is ********.
Talking about Tiers as soon as the game has come out is ********.
Talking about Tiers after the game has come out is much more sensible.

After all, the "true definition" of how tiers are arranged are their placings in Tournaments, right?

/end gay

 

[Xyro77]

the game is already out. and its been played by newbs and pros. Now is it released in NA, now you can say no.

 

[AlphaZealot]

These topics are going to exist now that the game has been released in Japan and a bunch of people have imported it (plus there has already been 1 Brawl tournament, with several others scheduled soon too), so this topic exists to keep people from posting their own tier lists. Is it really to soon to actually have a tier list? Yes. Regardless though now that the game is out people are going to speculate.

 

[LordLocke]

I think it's probably too early to start making concrete judgment calls, but I will say this-

If the stage selection winds up like Melee (no side-out stages like Onnet/Flatzone/MK/MK2/Etc) then I think a very large factor is going to be characters who can pursue off the stage- even with realizations like Attack Depreciation becoming better known, Brawl still seems to a case where high survival percentages are going to be consistently more common then norm then Melee, so any character who can go off the stage and get gimp kills is going to have a huge edge over those who have to wait until 150%+ in order to have a realistic shot at killing someone. We're already seeing Pits and Metaknights do it (two characters who seem to lack a lot of other realistic kill options), and we're only just now starting to see what R.O.B. can do with it too.

Basically, I'd say any character who can both leap out a long distance to attack then someone, then make it back home after pulling a gimp will be worth watching- Metaknight, Pit, ROB, Peach, Jigglypuff, Wario?, Dedede?, Kirby?, Luigi?, Diddy Kong?, Pikachu?- I'm not saying all of these guys are going to wind up as the game's elite, but it's definately something to keep in mind.

 

[TGPAdmin]

having imported the game and played it for over a week now we are starting to see some charaters emerge. We had a lockin for it the first night it came out with over 40 people playing in the tournament and the final mtach with Olimar vs Rob with Olimar winning.

After a few days we had our first weekly for Brawl with 14 people and again Olimar won with Diddy Kong coming in 2nd, followed by Marth and Captain Falcon.

Of what I have seen so far I would say the best characters are

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Marth
Fox
Captian Falcon
Sheik
R.O.B
G&W
pikachu*
(In no particular order)

Also this excludes toon link jiggly poof and wolf cause we just unlocked them tuesday night

Nick

 

[CT Chia]

its way too early to think of anything as i doubt no one has played every character except for those who have it, and i doubt theyv played everyone still. however, from my impressions of watching the tons of vids i do and from the play time iv had with it, im just gonna split characters into 3 groups awesome, good, not good lol:

Awesome:
Sonic
Diddy
Marth
Toon Link
Luigi
Mario

Good:
Pokemon Trainer
ROB
Bowser
Peach
Link
Zelda
Meta Knight
Pit
Falcon
Dedede

Not Good:
Snake
Ike
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Undecided:
Everyone I didn't name

 

[Vegard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8OCFl6EILs

This should be Brawl standard play modus =)

 

[S2]

So it seems like we're getting the general feel for who is and isn't good.

But everyone should keep in mind that early tier predictions can change as new stuff gets found out. In Melee, no one knew what the IC were capable of until a few years after the game came out.

 

[Hanniah]

I can't really tell since 1) we've only had 29 available caracters
2) I haven't tried all of them out yet

but there are my first impressions:

-Lucario is Top/High Tier. Definitely.
-Pit and Metaknight should be fairly high; they deal damage in a quick way and their air game is amazing.
-All spacies for High Tier at least. Fox and Falco, though they've been nerfed, are still crazy, and Wolf just pwns everything.
-Shiek and Peach ain't that good anymore. Middle Tier.
-Marth still pwns with his **** too-long-sword and his ridiculuous Fsmash. His grabs got less powerful though. Late High I'd say.
-Dedede very deep. I just don't get how to play him lol (only tried once though)
-PT should me middle. Ivysaur would be High, Squirtle (or whatever his name is) Middle and Charizard Low.
-PIKACHU HIGH TIER! That yellow blur is back with almost its original power!
-Sonic probably High, though I don't manage to play him effeciently a friend of mine ***** with him.
-I don't like Snake. Probably Middle.

The ones I didn't mention, either Low eithr I haven't played them yet :D

 

[JeremyKelly]

I want to get the game as soon as I possibly can (I live in Europe so not until May or something) so that I can enjoy the game. There will be no tier list in the first few months of it's releases. That way, people will have their own opinions and play who they like instead of poring over some list and playing whoever is at the top.

 

[D.A.N.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8OCFl6EILs

This should be Brawl standard play modus =)

Why? Because it plays like Melee?

Brawl is a separate game from Melee, and doesn't need to be Melee 1.1. If you wanna play Melee, keep playing Melee.

Now, is Lucario really that good? I mean the damage thing can be gotten around but he seems like he'd be low on High Tier or high on Mid Tier. I haven't seen many vids of him though.

 

[Droly]

Why? Because it plays like Melee?

Brawl is a separate game from Melee, and doesn't need to be Melee 1.1. If you wanna play Melee, keep playing Melee.

Now, is Lucario really that good? I mean the damage thing can be gotten around but he seems like he'd be low on High Tier or high on Mid Tier. I haven't seen many vids of him though.

I'm so sick of you noobs talking about how brawl shouldn't be melee YES IT SHOULD you noob. You obviously didn't comprehend that melee is one of the most in depth fighters there are. Every fighter should try to copy melee not just brawl.

 

[Hanniah]

I'm so sick of you noobs talking about how brawl shouldn't be melee YES IT SHOULD you noob. You obviously didn't comprehend that melee is one of the most in depth fighters there are. Every fighter should try to copy melee not just brawl.

I don't think it has to be. Improvement recquires changes. Melee was an excellent fighter game, but bugs and glitches made the caracters disproportionnally strong, which doesn't seem to be the case in Brawl (well, at least until we discovered some other hidden glitches ...)

If Nintendo had wanted to copy Melee, they'd have called their game SSBM2, and not SSBB. But they did not, and I think it's a great idea. This refreshing air makes me wanna discover things, makes me wanna play well. I'd have been rather disappointed and bored if Brawl had proven to be a pale copy of Melee with ameliorated graphics.


Oh and btw, I think you're the noob if you can't stand changes. Just stick to Melee if you don't want to start all again.

 

[Requiem]

From what i've catched up:

Top:

luigi
metaknight
dedede
marth
fox
wolf
pit

mid:
poke trainer (also I think the three pokemon will be divided later on)
mario

(these arnt in order)

but any tier list we make now will most likely be proven wrong in about a year

 

[CornCross]

While the SBR releases the Official list (about each year) that doesn't mean there can't be any discussion about Brawl's potential tier list.

I'll begin by saying that I think Sonic/Pit/Meta all look at least mid tier or higher.

We'll have this discussion topic open until the backroom releases the first tier list, which won't be for many, many months.

Why does the backroom get to decide? Smash is a gigantic public community!! I swear, man...mods and pros think they are gods, at least some of them...

Yeah, I said it, so ban me. I don't care, it'll just further prove my point.

 

[D.A.N.]

I'm so sick of you noobs talking about how brawl shouldn't be melee YES IT SHOULD you noob. You obviously didn't comprehend that melee is one of the most in depth fighters there are. Every fighter should try to copy melee not just brawl.

Don't be so rude and arrogant. Brawl is a sequel to Melee. It will expand on the gameplay elements of Melee as well as introduce it's own style to the game. If you don't like it, keep playing Melee. For god's sake, you could at least back up those horrible statements with some reason. Why should every fighter be like Melee? That would be ********. If everything's the same, nothing's different, and everything becomes boring. That's got to have been one of the worst posts I've read on any forum.

 

[CornCross]

I'm so sick of you noobs talking about how brawl shouldn't be melee YES IT SHOULD you noob. You obviously didn't comprehend that melee is one of the most in depth fighters there are. Every fighter should try to copy melee not just brawl.

Dude, you sound like the n00b...yeah you might retaliate and say, "Well ur a n00b, u only have, like, 4 posts!"

The numbe of posts on the boards doesn't have anything to do with knowledege or skill.

Yeah, I just thought I'd throw that in there.

 

[Patinator]

...I'll answer your question, CornCross. It's mainly because...

...The Smash Back Room is composed of the best of the best. Isn't it natural that they know how to make a tier properly? Jeez.

Heck, I think we should just leave it up to Mew2King!

 

[Requiem]

Dude, you sound like the n00b...yeah you might retaliate and say, "Well ur a n00b, u only have, like, 4 posts!"

The numbe of posts on the boards doesn't have anything to do with knowledege or skill.

Yeah, I just thought I'd throw that in there.

Maybe not, but a join date of january 2008 does say something.

try observing a lot longer before making statements about moderators, and pro's, and WHATEVER that doesnt concern asking people about brawl.

 

[DoH]

Why does the backroom get to decide? Smash is a gigantic public community!! I swear, man...mods and pros think they are gods, at least some of them...

Yeah, I said it, so ban me. I don't care, it'll just further prove my point.

The reason people get into the back room is not just because of smash skill; hell, I'm there, but also because of the ability to debate and articulate our points in depth and to have a mature, indepth discussion.

Do you really think nubs who are like 'OMG, Roy is top tier cuz he has teh ph1r3!!!!!SHIFT+1' should be deciding the list that reflects the current metagame of smash skill? No, because they clearly show a lack of understanding the intricacies of an indepth game such as smash.

 

[Enshoku]

I love how everyone has said that Ike will suck, poor ike-y.

 

[Furbs]

at the very least i think yoshi deserves his old smash spot (mid/upper low tier) true he lost djc, but the boost is a major buff and with the auto sweetspot it'll be easier to camp ledges. plus he was given a little bump to priority, decent speed with good knockback and power, although he STILL can't jump out of his shield :'(.

 

[KishPrime]

I'll post a list at the end of this weekend. I've already revised mine once, and probably will again after this weekend.

 

[User33]

What I think (list not in order):

Top
Pit
Marth
Falco

High
Fox
Wolf
ROB
Toon Link
Olimer
Peach
Diddy
Pikachu

Mid
Dedede
Ike
Mario
Luigi
Sonic
Kirby
Metaknight
Zelda
Lucas
PT

Low
Ness
Samus
Lucario
Falcon
Bowser
Link
Sheik
Wario
ZSS

Bottom
Yoshi
Jiggly
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
DK
Snake

 

[Requiem]

Thats one of the most messed up tiers i've seen XDDD

But hell, it can actually become true

 

[sHy)(gUy]

top: marth,diddy,wolf,lucas,pit

high:fox,falco,samus,dedede,toon link,olimar,g&w,luigi,shiek,r.o.b,ike,lucario

mid:metaknight,PT,sonic,peach,zelda,mario,zamus, snake, wario,pikachu

low:link,falcon,ness,bowser,DK,ice climbers,kirby

bottom:ganondorf,jigglypuff,yoshi

i win

 

[Ripple]

does it really matter what anybody says, NO. there will always be debate over the tiers, even if the tier list is made up by Nintendo itself, people will be be like no this character is better because of this reason and they will fail to truly understand what makes the other character better because they don't like/play them or for some underlying reason.

I'm all for a tier list, as long as people don't ***** about. I've already decided to main D.K. and nothing will change that. not even a tier list

 

[Droly]

Don't be so rude and arrogant. Brawl is a sequel to Melee. It will expand on the gameplay elements of Melee as well as introduce it's own style to the game. If you don't like it, keep playing Melee. For god's sake, you could at least back up those horrible statements with some reason. Why should every fighter be like Melee? That would be ********. If everything's the same, nothing's different, and everything becomes boring. That's got to have been one of the worst posts I've read on any forum.

I explained my reasoning, which is that melee is very deep. Brawl does not have any expanded game play elements of melee in reality it did the opposite . What it did do is make the game easier to play for the noobs. Even Sakurai stated he might be aiming for casual(noob) players and less depth.

"Of course, I think there was a possibility of taking Smash Bros. in a more casual-gaming direction. For example, we could make the art style simpler or make it possible to use Miis. However, with the various titles that the Wii was to offer, I felt that people were looking for something different. That’s the reason I decided in very early stages of development that the Wii pointer and motion movements would not be a primary feature of the game. "

He even thinks that less depth will hold a gamers attention. Which is the opposite of what it does.

"Sakurai
It’s best to have both approaches, right? If I had been at Nintendo, I may have made a Smash Bros. Brawl that was more in line with the Wii. As a result, I feel, in some ways, that my decision-making wasn’t the very best…particularly as gamers readily tire of games these days. Smash Bros. Brawl may not be effective as it tries to perfect the experience of conventional games.

Iwata
Without a doubt, the rapid speed at which consumers make purchases and then grow tired of them is an area of game development in which the balance has been thoroughly upset. Some time ago we were able to say "if we invest this much effort to make this type of product, gamers should get this much fun play time out of it." Now, however, these odds are changing and there is a feeling that the product won’t hold the gamers attention unless you continually design more game contents and add more depth.

Sakurai
That’s why I think games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit were a step in the right direction. I’m not saying that these games lack depth, but these games proposed an unprecedented line of thinking and broke from the old "more contents and more depth" philosophy. "

You are a noob don't talk to me like you know what you are talking about.