Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Zinc Elemental]

New version of the average tier list, compiled by averaging the lists in this thread:

Top Tier:
1. Meta Knight
2. Snake

High Tier:
1. Mr. Game & Watch
2. Marth
3. King DeDeDe
4. Falco5. R.O.B.

Upper Middle Tier:
1. Wario
2. Olimar

Middle Tier:
1. Lucario
2. Donkey Kong
3. Pikachu
4. Wolf
5. Pit
6. Toon Link
7. Ice Climbers
8. Kirby
9. Diddy Kong

Lower Middle Tier:
1. Fox
2. Zelda

Upper Low Tier:
1. Zero Suit Samus
2. Luigi
3. Lucas
4. Ness
5. Peach

Low Tier:
1. Mario
2. Ike
3. Sonic
4. Sheik
5. Pokemon Trainer
6. Bowser

Bottom Tier:
1. Samus
2. Yoshi
3. Link
4. Jigglypuff
5. Ganondorf
6. Captain Falcon


Meta Knight finally overtakes Snake at the top of the average tier list.
Biggest movers: Pikachu moves up, and Toon Link moves down.

I know this is just an average compilation, but this is WAY off, imho.

Here's my list:

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf

MIDDLE:

Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Peach
Yoshi
Lucas
Ness
Fox

LOW:

Mario
Bowser
Sonic
Sheik
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Ike

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captian Falcon

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic isn't on your list BTW

 

[Nestec]

Yeah he is. he's just moving so fast you can't see him. ;P

 

[DanGR]

Usually, the bike is enough to get you back to stage. If the opportunity presents itself to get a low % kill with a %75 full waft, then go for it.

 

[Nestec]

Ah, ok, thanks.

 

[Bowser King]

I know this is just an average compilation, but this is WAY off, imho.

Here's my list:

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

TOP TIER:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Donkey Kong Nope
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu Higher
Pit
Wolf A bit higher

MIDDLE:

Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Luigi
Peach
Yoshi Lower
Lucas
Ness
Fox No Comment

LOW:

Mario
Bowser
Sheik
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Ike

BOTTOM:

Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captian Falcon

Just some things I noticed..

 

[Grunt]

lol, Luigi > Fox?

 

[ROOOOY!]

What I like is that there's absolutely no Sonic in there at all.
However, Yoshi seems really really high.
Someone's been listening to the :
"YOSHI IS HIGH MID TIER! HONEST!"
clamouring every page in tactical discussion a bit too much xD

 

[Mmac]

But we have proof >_>

And it's Yoshi ;_ ;

 

[popsofctown]

Fox just shows up to tourneys more

 

[ROOOOY!]

Once I (or anyone else for that matter) sees the proof I'd probably be more inclined to believe statements like that.
And I know a bit about Yoshi, the grab to Fair spike along with a few other tidbits in my mind is whats preventing him from being like low low tier.
He's bottom mid at the very very most, and that's me being as generous as possible. I mean, considering that he's in the bottom 10 tournament results wise, and tier lists are based primarily on tournament results, that alone kinda stops him being high mid tier.

 

[Nestec]

He's a pretty solid character in the right hands. But I suppose the same can be said about many others... -__-

 

[Mmac]

But if it's based heavily on Tournament Results, then why is Luigi Mid Mid even though he's doing just as bad as Ganondorf/Falcon?

Hell, Pokemon Trainer and Ike have pretty decent Tournament Results and above lots of people, but They're at Low end of Low.

I think the entire Tournament Results is just a stupid excuse just to keep some characters down...

 

[Zinc Elemental]

However, Yoshi seems really really high.
Someone's been listening to the :
"YOSHI IS HIGH MID TIER! HONEST!"
clamouring every page in tactical discussion a bit too much xD

Yeah, I have been, and I've realized they've made some very good points.

Sorry about missing Sonic, I deleted him to move him and forgot to put him back. >_< I'd put him above Sheik.

I'm somewhat unsure of the order of Wario, Kirby and Pikachu, so Pikachu might be above the other two.

I wouldn't put Wolf higher than the rest of the high tier.

As for Fox, I'm really unimpressed by him. Possibly above Lucas or Ness, but I don't think he belongs higher than that. I could very well be wrong, though.

I mean, considering that he's in the bottom 10 tournament results wise, and tier lists are based primarily on tournament results, that alone kinda stops him being high mid tier.

Tiers are based off of character potential, not tournament results. There is a correlation between the two, but good tournament results != good characters necessarily. Tournament results are greatly affected by the character's popularity. It's quite possible that Yoshi and Luigi are underplayed, and thus the tournament results don't accurately reflect their potential.

 

[ROOOOY!]

But if it's based heavily on Tournament Results, then why is Luigi Mid Mid even though he's doing just as bad as Ganondorf/Falcon?

Hell, Pokemon Trainer and Ike have pretty decent Tournament Results and above lots of people, but They're at Low end of Low.

I think the entire Tournament Results is just a stupid excuse just to keep some characters down...

Because there are other factors too?
Luigi's tournament results will improve though, I guess that's what people are going on at the minute. That and they've factored in that Luigi ***** everyone 'low tier and downwards' which is the second most important factor, character match-ups. Third most important is character capabilities, and although Luigi's got a horrible ground game (other than SHORYUKEN xD) and no approach, he's one of the best characters aerially.
So yeah, that's probably why he's there.
I don't know about PT, so I won't discuss him.
Ike, although doing well in tournaments, has very few good match-ups, and is not a great character overall because of some massive flaws in gameplay (gimpable and sub-par recovery, lag on like 80% of moves, bad offense.)
I don't know HOW heavily tournament results reflect on it. My guess is pretty highly though, the OP makes a hint about it iirc.
A conversation without mentioning Yoshi ;o

Spoiler

Even if it was pseudo about him

To the person above.
OPENING FRIKKIN POST.

First, the tier list is primarily based on tournament results..

I wish some people other than me took the time to read ;_;

 

[LuigiKing]

OK Mmac, I appreciate your knowledge of Yoshi and all that, but really, who is Yoshi better than? I admit Yoshi definately has a lot more potential than Falcon or Ganny, but when you analyze every single other character as you do Yoshi, he stops looking so good and you start to see why hes potentially bottom tier. There is no way Yoshi is better than the likes of Sheik (then again thats a bad example as Sheik should be top of mid IMO), or even Mario. If you go through every other character's options like you do Yoshi, its hard to say hes really that good. I'm not saying Yoshi is so much a bad character, just that when you are FORCED to order every character, it isn't fair to the others. You simply cannot move Yoshi up without moving others down.

 

[Dynamism?]

Zinc
- Ness above Lucas = Rulez of life!

Falling Witness:
who are you maining these days?
=[

Consequently I've decided to become a "random" main. Who else wants to main random?

????!?!?!

Yeah he is. he's just moving so fast you can't see him. ;P

lol nice

"YOSHI IS HIGH MID TIER! HONEST!"

But we have proof >_>

And it's Yoshi ;_ ;

THE ANSWER
DanGR
- you can add this to your awesome sig of win posts if it meets your awesomeness expectations.

Yoshi
100% of the time
No joke

I think the entire Tournament Results is just a stupid excuse just to keep some characters down...

The rankings thing shouldn't be taken so seriously. They apply, but not as an is all end all thing that it has recently become. It's all good though. Yoshi has been proof of the flaws and other characters will come to light in time.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

To the person above.
OPENING FRIKKIN POST.



I wish some people other than me took the time to read ;_;

It appears I was mistaken as to how tiers are defined. For that, I apologize, ROOOOY.

However, I still think that tournament results this early in the game are not an accurate representation of what the tier list will look like in the far future. So, for now, I think we should look at other factors over how well represented they are in tournaments.

 

[Snowstalker]

Improved version of my tier list:

GOD:

Meta Knight (and no, he shouldn't be banned)

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Lucario
Wario
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Pit
Ice Climbers

MIDDLE:

Toon Link
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Ness
Mario
Lucas

LOW:

Sonic
Yoshi
Shiek
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Ike
Link

BOTTOM:

Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captian Falcon

 

[Ignatious]

Ice CLimbers are freaking amazing. TOP TIER MOTHA ****A!!!

 

[Delta_BP26]

ZSS relies too much on forward special for her kills. Sure, it has range but it's really easy to avoid and predictable. All you have to do is roll behind her and punish the ending lag. She doesn't have a traditional down smash either; It's harder for her to punish your rolls. Luigi can juggle just as easily as her too. His up tilt destroys fast fallers and neutral air is good for keeping them in the air since it hits them straight up. Luigi has one powerful aerial that's a good killing move: his neutral air. It kills at around 120% if done from a short hop but if you done high in the air, it can kill at 110% or 100%. Luigi's aerials still have amazing combo ability. Perhaps even more so since forward air lost knock back.

This. ZSS is NOT an all around better character. She has more range, but I think that's about it. Luigi has better aerials, good combo ability with his aerials since they don't have the knockback they used to, really good juggling ability, and good kill power. All of his aerials can kill, and he has a godly recovery.

ZSS has mediocre kill power, though she does have very good range and a really cheap B. She has all of the pros you listed; but those pros don't make it that Luigi>ZSS in every way like you said.

Secondly, that tier list that was just posted is very good. Though I don't think Ike and PT should be so low.

 

[ROOOOY!]

It appears I was mistaken as to how tiers are defined. For that, I apologize, ROOOOY.

However, I still think that tournament results this early in the game are not an accurate representation of what the tier list will look like in the far future. So, for now, I think we should look at other factors over how well represented they are in tournaments.

Sorry, reading that back I took quite a harsh tone. I'm just a bit stressed, I don't bite really

I wouldn't say it's that early, it's been nearly half a year. Also, the tournament ranking do seem to be fairly indicitive of how good a character is/where they're going to place on the tier list. For example, around the bottom it seems that the worst characters are around there.
At the other end, the best characters seem to be near the top. The best 7 or so seem to have cemented themselves, except for the absence of ROB though I'm sure that'll sort itself out in due time.
Sure there are a few anomolies in there, if we were to take the rankings as a tier list, IMO Ike is very high, and Olimar as pretty low, but in the end it's sort of an indicator as to how good a character is. I don't think any one character will make a massive jump (for example, Mario from where he is now to like, top 12 or something), except for maybe one of the few anomolies that I spoke of before.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Sorry, reading that back I took quite a harsh tone. I'm just a bit stressed, I don't bite really

Apology accepted. However, I have to admit, not noticing that part of the OP was pretty stupid of me.

I wouldn't say it's that early, it's been nearly half a year. Also, the tournament ranking do seem to be fairly indicitive of how good a character is/where they're going to place on the tier list. For example, around the bottom it seems that the worst characters are around there.
At the other end, the best characters seem to be near the top. The best 7 or so seem to have cemented themselves, except for the absence of ROB though I'm sure that'll sort itself out in due time.
Sure there are a few anomolies in there, if we were to take the rankings as a tier list, IMO Ike is very high, and Olimar as pretty low, but in the end it's sort of an indicator as to how good a character is. I don't think any one character will make a massive jump (for example, Mario from where he is now to like, top 12 or something), except for maybe one of the few anomolies that I spoke of before.

I agreed that they were pretty indicative of their placements. However, there are other things to be factored in, which are likely big factors in someof the anomolies, Ike, Olimar, Luigi, etc. I think given more time those will fix themselves and the tournament results will be much closer to the tier list. For now, I'd say the tournament results make a good starting point, but I wouldn't use it to justify tier placements too much.

 

[Tenki]

This. ZSS is NOT an all around better character. She has more range, but I think that's about it. Luigi has better aerials, good combo ability with his aerials since they don't have the knockback they used to, really good juggling ability, and good kill power. All of his aerials can kill, and he has a godly recovery.

ZSS has mediocre kill power, though she does have very good range and a really cheap B. She has all of the pros you listed; but those pros don't make it that Luigi>ZSS in every way like you said.

Secondly, that tier list that was just posted is very good. Though I don't think Ike and PT should be so low.

"cheap".. lol. +1 for scrubvocab, +2 for Ike

Considering that most of the significant matchups in tournaments (which, in turn, kinda... influence tier placement) are the ones involving:
ROB, Snake, MK, GAW, Marth, ROB, Falco, etc

How does Luigi work against them?

ex: ZSS's speed and range seem to be pretty troublesome for some Snake players.

 

[Snowstalker]

Never knew there were 2 ROBs in Brawl.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

"cheap".. lol. +1 for scrubvocab, +2 for Ike

Considering that most of the significant matchups in tournaments (which, in turn, kinda... influence tier placement) are the ones involving:
ROB, Snake, MK, GAW, Marth, ROB, Falco, etc

How does Luigi work against them?

ex: ZSS's speed and range seem to be pretty troublesome for some Snake players.

Seeing things from the Metaknight side, I'd say Luigi has a moderate disadvantage against him.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Falco > Snake. Falco has better match ups and the East Coast knows how to handle Snake to the point where he is almost a non-factor. Apparently Snake isn't doing well in other regions too, like Japan and the midwest. I don't expect anyone in this thread to agree, just making a point and a prediction that Snake will end up lower on people's tier lists in the near future.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Considering that most of the significant matchups in tournaments (which, in turn, kinda... influence tier placement) are the ones involving:
ROB, Snake, MK, GAW, Marth, ROB, Falco, etc

How does Luigi work against them?

Luigi has a huge disadvantage against Meta Knight because of his aerial's speed and disjointed hitboxes.
Luigi doesn't have too much problem with Snake. Snake isn't too good in the air and that's where Luigi excels at. Snake has to be really careful about laying mines or using forward smash because they give Luigi plenty of time to fire jump punch him.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Luigi has a huge disadvantage against Meta Knight because of his aerial's speed and disjointed hitboxes.

That's certainly true, but I'd think his difficult to gimp recovery brings it up from a huge disadvantage to a moderate one.

Anyway, regardless, the point is that Luigi doesn't do well against MK.

 

[Jump_Man]

Improved version of my tier list:

GOD:

Meta Knight (and no, he shouldn't be banned)

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Olimar
Lucario
Wario
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Pit
Ice Climbers

MIDDLE:

Toon Link
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Ness
Mario
Lucas

LOW:

Sonic
Yoshi
Shiek
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Ike
Link

BOTTOM:

Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captian Falcon

Maybe snake should be placed lower than GW, and Falco higher than D3. but other than that, ya that's pretty much how it looks right now.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

As for Mr. Game & Watch.

You can trick him into using bucket on your fireball then fire punch him when he suffers from the long ending lag of putting the bucket away. Even if he knows about it, he'll be too afraid to use bucket to stop your fireballs. You can side step his down air and fire punch him if he's foolish enough to use it above you. G&W is really light. An up angled forward smash can kill him at 70%. His aerials can give you problems, especially his back air but thankfully the move is bad at KOing and his forward air is easy to shield grab.

Luigi has the advantage in that mach up.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Nooooooooooooooo!
Argh, why do I keep commenting ITT? It's bizarre sometimes.
Luigi does not have the advantage on Gaymenwatch.
Luigi is outclassed in the air..
..and on the ground.
Luigi cannot approach on the air or ground.
G&W can approach.
Luigi has no range on most attacks.
Gaymenwatch has massive range on his attacks, notably tilts.

As for addressing the actual arguments :
Game and Watch actually will not often use their bucket. If you pull that trick off once I doubt you'll do it again.
An up angled forward smash will kill early, but that thing has little range and Game and Watch will space himself away from it.
The other things just made me cringe a bit.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Nooooooooooooooo!
Argh, why do I keep commenting ITT? It's bizarre sometimes.
Luigi does not have the advantage on Gaymenwatch.
Luigi is outclassed in the air..
..and on the ground.
Luigi cannot approach on the air or ground.
G&W can approach.
Luigi has no range on most attacks.
Gaymenwatch has massive range on his attacks, notably tilts.

As for addressing the actual arguments :
Game and Watch actually will not often use their bucket. If you pull that trick off once I doubt you'll do it again.
An up angled forward smash will kill early, but that thing has little range and Game and Watch will space himself away from it.
The other things just made me cringe a bit.

Outclassed in the air? Yeah. This is one of the few times where Luigi should stay on the ground aside from short hopping.
On the ground? No.
Luigi can approach with fireballs which G&W can do nothing about. If he tries to use normal attacks to cancel them then he gives Luigi an opening to strike
G&W can approach with his areials but they become really predictable. If you know he's going to approach with one, all you have to do is back away so he lands in front of you.
Luigi's fireballs give him range and he also has back air. Never underestimate the range back air has when hit with the soles of his shoes.
All Luigi has to do is predict and side step one of G&W's attack to land a forward smash. Any attack can be avoided with proper spacing so this is a stupid point.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Outclassed in the air? Yeah. This is one of the few times where Luigi should stay on the ground aside from short hopping.
On the ground? No.
Luigi can approach with fireballs which G&W can do nothing about. If he tries to use normal attacks to cancel them then he gives Luigi an opening to strike
G&W can approach with his areials but they become really predictable. If you know he's going to approach with one, all you have to do is back away so he lands in front of you.
Luigi's fireballs give him range and he also has back air. Never underestimate the range back air has when hit with the soles of his shoes.
All Luigi has to do is predict and side step one of G&W's attack to land a forward smash. Any attack can be avoided with proper spacing so this is a stupid point.

For real?
How does Luigi outclass G&W on the ground? On the whole, G&W's attacks have more priority, LOADS more range, lingering hitboxes, and IASA frames on his Up smash and probably more but I'm not remembering because it's gone 3AM.

You're acting as though G&W has trouble with that projectile. He doesn't need to bucket, D-tilt kills them pretty nicely with its lingering hitbox. His jab probably does. It's not like there's punishable lag after these moves with lingering hitboxes either so I don't know where you're getting this striking idea from.

G&W can approach with 3 aerials, Nair, Bair and Fair, the latter two being most common. Bair and to some extent fair have good range so getting out the way of them is a problem. You could try shielding, but Bair ***** your shield and it's mother.

Fireballs could help, but the aerials don't have much landing lag and considering the projectile is slow moving he's probably got time to shield it. Oh, and G&W Bair > Luigi's Bair.

And you're right, your last point is stupid. By your logic, the forward smash could to be avoided with proper spacing, which is easy because even it you sidestep dodge for example a Bair/Dsmash/Ftilt/Dtilt you're still going to get hit by it because of the hitboxes staying out for longer than Luigi's sidestep.

Lol

 

[Yaya]

I've been reading through some tier lists.

When did Toon Link go from surefire Top Tier to Mid?

 

[PrinceMarthX]

I never said Luigi outclasses him on the ground, I disagreed that G&W outclassed him.

What's with this loads of range?

Both of their forward tilts have the same range
Luigi's fireball has the same range as G&W's bacon but is more reliable
Down smash has the same range. G&W's down smash needs to be sweet spotted to be super powerful.
Luigi's up smash has a little more range
Neutral has the same range
Back air has a little more range
Forward air has a good bit more range
Down tilts has a good bit more range
Forward smash has a little more more range but is slower

You speak as if Game and Watch had Marth or Ike's range. Luigi and his range are pretty similar with a few of G&W's attacks having a little more.

 

[Martial]

I've been reading through some tier lists.

When did Toon Link go from surefire Top Tier to Mid?

When he failed to show up on the tournament scene.

 

[Ellio 2 b]

Silly posters! Tiers are for Queers!

But seriously I think that Zelda got way better in brawl.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I never said Luigi outclasses him on the ground, I disagreed that G&W outclassed him.

What's with this loads of range?

Both of their forward tilts have the same range
Luigi's fireball has the same range as G&W's bacon but is more reliable
Down smash has the same range. G&W's down smash needs to be sweet spotted to be super powerful.
Luigi's up smash has a little more range
Neutral has the same range
Back air has a little more range
Forward air has a good bit more range
Down tilts has a good bit more range
Forward smash has a little more more range but is slower

You speak as if Game and Watch had Marth or Ike's range. Luigi and his range are pretty similar with a few of G&W's attacks having a little more.

Game and Watch outranges MK with plenty of attacks. I'd call that pretty significant range. Also, his hitboxes are ALL disjointed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of Luigi's are.

 

[Yaya]

Ellio, your sig would be a lot more impressive if it wasn't a computer.