Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Xiivi]

 

[Chaco]

Wow, this made me lol.

But we Yoshi mainers run in packs and are determined to prove to you Yoshi's true strength. Which you can't possibly know if you push us off without actually opening up your mind and listening to what we say, and heck and occasionally playing us. I'll agree that Yoshi doesn't have the best match ups but he does have a good match up that other don't have. Nuetral to MK and advantage on FD and SV.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I never said Luigi outclasses him on the ground, I disagreed that G&W outclassed him.

What's with this loads of range?

Both of their forward tilts have the same range
Luigi's fireball has the same range as G&W's bacon but is more reliable
Down smash has the same range. G&W's down smash needs to be sweet spotted to be super powerful.
Luigi's up smash has a little more range
Neutral has the same range
Back air has a little more range
Forward air has a good bit more range
Down tilts has a good bit more range
Forward smash has a little more more range but is slower

You speak as if Game and Watch had Marth or Ike's range. Luigi and his range are pretty similar with a few of G&W's attacks having a little more.

F-tilt. G&W's has more priority, stays out longer, does more knockback.
Fireball and Bacon aren't comparable except in the fact that they're both useless.
Dsmash, G&W's can be used in quick succession because it's **** near lagless, more damage, more priority, more killing power.
Upsmash, granted. IASA frames help, and it has more killing power.
Neutral airs are about even, I'd go as far as to say it's Wigi's best move.
Back air, I'm pretty sure it doesn't, and even if it does it's less useful than G&W's.
Luigi's forward air has more range than G&W's? Not on your life.
Now I think you're joking. Luigi's down tilt has more range than G&W's?! LMAO.
Luigi's forward smash is faster but has a little less range I think, though I could be wrong.

Not that we should be comparing moves directly to each other anyway.
I don't think you've taken into account that most of G&W's moves are horribly disjoint, and with Luigi's horrible range he doesn't really have any way to counter it.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

You misread my post. When I say __ has more range I'm referring to Game & Watch. Only when I say Luigi is when Luigi has more. Out of my list, only Luigi's up smash has more range. And Luigi's fireball is far from useless.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Luigi has a huge disadvantage against Meta Knight because of his aerial's speed and disjointed hitboxes.
Luigi doesn't have too much problem with Snake. Snake isn't too good in the air and that's where Luigi excels at. Snake has to be really careful about laying mines or using forward smash because they give Luigi plenty of time to fire jump punch him.

Umm...did you really just imply that Snake would be using F-smash at some point? Or that he'd be laying mines while Luigi is on the stage (as opposed to shorthopping and dropping a C-4 instead)?

Wow, you seriously don't know much about Snake.

 

[ROOOOY!]

You misread my post. When I say __ has more range I'm referring to Game & Watch. Only when I say Luigi is when Luigi has more. Out of my list, only Luigi's up smash has more range.

Fair do's. But then, that's kinda argued against your own argument. Considering Luigi is outranged in every department, what does he have on G&W?

 

[Delta_BP26]

If you really think the Fireball is useless, I'd like whatever it is you're on.

Luigi can deal with Snake pretty easily, actually; I've faced an amazing Snake and won. However, I only won once. Out of many games... v_v" He was TRULY amazing though. Whenever I had an advantage on him, you could see why a Luigi as amazing as him (I play a good Luigi but he was way better than me) would beat a Snake of the same skill level. U-tilt FTW.

PrinceMarthX, I think you should back down on this one. A good G&W is one of Luigi's bad match-ups.

On the subject of Falco, he isn't that bad a match-up for Luigi. Luigi is at a disadvantage, but it's nothing like the dreaded MK that makes Luigi mainers cry.

Against ROB... I have to admit I don't know much about the issue and I have yet to face a good ROB. Against Marth, that is another really bad match-up for Luigi. And ok ok, I forgot that "cheap" was a bad word to say. I don't get the Ike thing though. I honestly don't think he should be that low.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Fair do's. But then, that's kinda argued against your own argument. Considering Luigi is outranged in every department, what does he have on G&W?

Out of the 9 attacks I listed, he was outranged in 4, Luigi outranged him in 1 and they were equal in 4. The 4 times he was outranged, 2 of them were minor and 2 were a good amount

Outraged in every department, eh? G&W has a little more range overall. Keyword "little" Earlier you said and I quote that he had "loads more range" A little is hardly loads.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I forgot to mention G&W's ftilt has more range =p

But yeah, when comparing it attack by attack. How often are you going to run in and do a bair the same time someone else is? Not very often indeed.
It's the fact that none of Luigi's attack outrange Game and Watch's bair that's the problem, and that's unfortunate because its the approach that he'll more than often take.
If Luigi's approaching from the ground (which he never ever should because he has no approach options there at all), G&W's dtilt ***** all.
If approaching from the air, up angled ftilt (it's disjoint iirc) or short hop fair.

 

[Delta_BP26]

No methods? Falling tornado, tornado (however to a lesser extent) and SH-Double aerials would like to have a word with you...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Falling tornado is an aerial approach. Not ground.
Tornado's an OK approach against some characters, but Game and Watch outprioritizes it with several attacks.
SH fair doesn't have a lot of range at all. Nair has amazing priority but it's range is meh. Bair is your best bet, and will probably work, G&W's ftilt doesn't come out that fast, and I don't know if a SH fair will beat it either.
Having one safe-ish approach doesn't get you anywhere, though.

 

[Delta_BP26]

SH-Double B-Air is generally the most used one. SH-Double F-Air is very limited in range; however you can do SH F-Air to N-Air, which could work well. However, like I said before; this argument isn't worth it. A really good G&W could easily take out Luigi.

 

[ROOOOY!]

However, like I said before; this argument isn't worth it. A really good G&W could easily take out Luigi.

Correct. All I said is that Luigi definately doesn't counter G&W. I was kinda made to elaborate after that, and I don't like debating things that are usually common knowledge >.>

 

[Negative_Two]

Luigi can approach with fireballs which G&W can do nothing about. If he tries to use normal attacks to cancel them then he gives Luigi an opening to strike

You're overrating his fireballs WAY too much. Nothing stops gayman from just powershielding and following it up with an aerial.

G&W can approach with his aerials but they become really predictable. If you know he's going to approach with one, all you have to do is back away so he lands in front of you.

The back air (main approach) goes pretty far IIRC (don't main Gayman) and he wouldn't use it so far away that you could simply "back away"

Luigi's fireballs give him range and he also has back air. Never underestimate the range back air has when hit with the soles of his shoes.

As Gaymans shouldn't underestimate your backair, Luigis shouldn't underestimate the advantage Gayman gets from his disjointy-ness. This means if attack collide, and you hit outside of his body, you'll be the only one taking damage.

All Luigi has to do is predict and side step one of G&W's attack to land a forward smash. Any attack can be avoided with proper spacing so this is a stupid point.

Gaymans FSmash lingers longer than a spotdodge. If you're taking about his DSmash or USmash, what stops him from spotdoging himself?

 

[Crank]

"cheap".. lol. +1 for scrubvocab, +2 for Ike

Considering that most of the significant matchups in tournaments (which, in turn, kinda... influence tier placement) are the ones involving:
ROB, Snake, MK, GAW, Marth, ROB, Falco, etc

How does Luigi work against them?

ex: ZSS's speed and range seem to be pretty troublesome for some Snake players.

If this is true, than TL should be doing better in tournaments.

 

[Delta_BP26]

Enough of Luigi vs. G&W. We already established that G&W> Luigi in a match-up.

 

[Deathcarter]

Having one safe-ish approach doesn't get you anywhere, though.

For no apparent reason whatsoever, I just wanted to remind you of Samus's zair.

If this is true, than TL should be doing better in tournaments.

1. I could say something similar to this about Samus to a lesser extent since she has only slight disadvantages against Snake, ROB (maybe neutral not too sure), Marth, and difficult, but winnable matchups against Falco and G&W but look where she is.

2. Toon Link has a disadvantage against G&W, Meta Knight, and Marth fyi.

And by the way, Luigi and Samus would probably be in high low-bottom mid since they should not be able to win any tournaments with DDD without a secondary.

 

[Delta_BP26]

Why is DDD a bad match-up for Luigi? Even as a Luigi main, there are quite a bit of match ups I don't know about... (If it's because he has an infinite on him then ****)

 

[Deathcarter]

Why is DDD a bad match-up for Luigi? Even as a Luigi main, there are quite a bit of match ups I don't know about... (If it's because he has an infinite on him then ****)

Pretty much the infinite. Luigi cannot space against DDD's grab range and a grab from DDD equals one lost stock to be frank.

 

[Delta_BP26]

Shoot... I hate infinites because you can't ban them/ it's hard to ban them.

 

[cutter]

As for Mr. Game & Watch.

You can trick him into using bucket on your fireball then fire punch him when he suffers from the long ending lag of putting the bucket away. Even if he knows about it, he'll be too afraid to use bucket to stop your fireballs. You can side step his down air and fire punch him if he's foolish enough to use it above you. G&W is really light. An up angled forward smash can kill him at 70%. His aerials can give you problems, especially his back air but thankfully the move is bad at KOing and his forward air is easy to shield grab.

Luigi has the advantage in that mach up.

Stop making stuff up. G&W wrecks Luigi. He has no answer to G&W's disjointed hitboxes and cannot answer the turtle. G&W doesn't even have to bucket fireballs; he can just turtle right through them and Luigi can't do a thing to stop it.

G&W can just abuse the turtle all match and Luigi can't do jack diddly. It's quite sad actually.

This is at least a 7/3 matchup in favor if G&W; if not 8/2.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

For no apparent reason whatsoever, I just wanted to remind you of Samus's zair.



1. I could say something similar to this about Samus to a lesser extent since she has only slight disadvantages against Snake, ROB (maybe neutral not too sure), Marth, and difficult, but winnable matchups against Falco and G&W but look where she is.

2. Toon Link has a disadvantage againstG&W, Meta Knight, and Marth fyi.

And by the way, Luigi and Samus would probably be in high low-bottom mid since they should not be able to win any tournaments with DDD without a secondary.

Um, what? Last I checked, Toon Link has the advantage over GaW and is neutral against Marth.

 

[strider43]

I still think Falco is the best character in the game, seeing as you don't even have to be pro to wreck any character with a ZTD by doing a few simple moves.

 

[Onxy]

I also believe that Falco > everyone else.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Um, what? Last I checked, Toon Link has the advantage over GaW and is neutral against Marth.

Agreed

Toon Link: 4/6
Pretty much a pain in the ***. His extremely good projectile game forces you to go after him (you can't absorb anything he throws). Thus you have to learn how to dodge boomerangs and the like with air dodges to move in. Turtle dancing works well to cancel most projectiles and to approach the tl themselves. Once in sword range, make sure to keep your spacing well because their moves are very quick and annoying with a ranged grab to boot. Edgeguarding isn't always very easy, all i can say is to follow up your combos off the stage to force them to death.

And

Toon Link - 5:5 Even


...


Toon Link - TL has a solid projectile game with a good moveset to back it up. Remember that you can deal with his projectile game the same as Link's. The only difference is that his boomerang hits on the way back, so you are better off just jabbing it or shielding it. His arrows travel more slowly then Link's so he can use them as walls. TL can Short Hop Double arrow. Short hop then shoot an arrow then land and shoot another one. To deal with this you shoudl dash under the high arrow, then SH over the low one. But keep in mind that TL can just SH arrow then do anything he wants, so be on your guard. At close range you have the edge due to superior range, but he has good speed and moves so be careful. He can chain his bairs for easy combos and all his smashes are good for killing. Also his throw game is solid since his d-throw sets up really well for juggles. His recovery isn't stellar though so you can gimp it pretty easily so go for those off the stage Fairs and Nairs. TL is the opposite of Link in that he doesn't do alot of damge hit for hit, but his attacks have alot of knockback which makes him a good killer. Still, you have the advantage in range so use that to keep him out and play your zoning game once you get past the projectiles. He is light so he will die early, so you don't have to worry about him living to very high percents. Be aware that you can avoid the second hit of his f-smash at higher percents, you can DI up and then jump away. Remember that his bombs do have a larger blast radius then Link's and he can throw his Boomerang at sharp angles.

Toon Link does fine against those two... why are people saying that he doesn't?

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Stop making stuff up. G&W wrecks Luigi. He has no answer to G&W's disjointed hitboxes and cannot answer the turtle. G&W doesn't even have to bucket fireballs; he can just turtle right through them and Luigi can't do a thing to stop it.

G&W can just abuse the turtle all match and Luigi can't do jack diddly. It's quite sad actually.

This is at least a 7/3 matchup in favor if G&W; if not 8/2.

Fireballs are very disruptive They will cancel almost any attack. That creates an opening to cyclone if close range or short hop an aerial. Turtle is good but any attack is useless if you're too predictable with it. As I said earlier, move away so it lands in front of you. Another thing you could do is jump away and over and strike with a back air from behind while his turtle hits nothing. Using an attack carelessly, no matter how good it is will result in punishment. If G&W relies on his turtle to stop fireballs then he's leaving himself wide open. Turtle is a long lasting attack that leaves his rear completely vulnerable.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Fireballs are very disruptive They will cancel almost any attack. That creates an opening to cyclone if close range or short hop an aerial. Turtle is good but any attack is useless if you're too predictable with it. As I said earlier, move away so it lands in front of you. Another thing you could do is jump away and over and strike with a back air from behind while his turtle hits nothing. Using an attack carelessly, no matter how good it is will result in punishment. If G&W relies on his turtle to stop fireballs then he's leaving himself wide open. Turtle is a long lasting attack that leaves his rear completely vulnerable.

Give it up already. Please, you obviously haven't played a good G and W before.
Luigi has a disadvantage.
Turtle does not leave G and W wide open.
End of story.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Give it up already. Please, you obviously haven't played a good G and W before.

You've never played a good Luigi if you think such a simple brick wall works.

Luigi has a disadvantage.

Possibility, if you're not predictable. But if you think you get away with spamming one move then think again.

Turtle does not leave G and W wide open.
End of story.

Except it does. It doesn't hit above or behind him. It has disjointed hit boxes in front so attacking from above can be risky if you're too close. But he's completely defenseless from behind. The attack also has ending lag if it ends on the ground.

 

[Mmac]

Ok, if Luigi's Fireballs don't cancel out Yoshi's Bair, what makes you think it will cancel out one of the best Bair's in the game?

It doesn't leave him open, and will never will. The only thing that will is just space it, and punish the Third of a second of landing lag he has on it.

And how will you get behind him? Seriously? Above maybe, but he'll just switch to Uair or do an UpB combo

 

[cutter]

You've never played a good Luigi if you think such a simple brick wall works.

Explain to me how Luigi is going to beat the turtle?

Possibility, if you're not predictable. But if you think you get away with spamming one move then think again.

Some characters just cannot beat the turtle, period. It is just like how some characters cannot stop MK's tornado.

Except it does. It doesn't hit above or behind him. It has disjointed hit boxes in front so attacking from above can be risky if you're too close. But he's completely defenseless from behind. The attack also has ending lag if it ends on the ground.

Umm you do realize turtle has a landing hitbox.

If you're going to continue to deny the fact G&W destroys Luigi, I'm going to bring in OBM, Hylian, NoJ, Neb, Esc, A2ZOMG, and the rest of the G&W community in to dispel this nonsense.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Above maybe, but he'll just switch to Uair or do an UpB combo

Except the attack lasts a while. He can do nothing else while it's going. If you're close you have plenty of time to jump and hit with a down air from above or back air from behind. I never said fireballs cancel it either, I said fireballs cancel "most" attacks. Game & Watch's back air is very good when it catches your opponent by surprise but it's not super broken like many of you seem to believe. It has its weaknesses just like any other attack.

you're going to continue to deny the fact G&W destroys Luigi, I'm going to bring in OBM, Hylian, NoJ, Neb, Esc, A2ZOMG, and the rest of the G&W community in to dispel this nonsense.

A bunch of Game and Watch fanboys doesn't change facts. Luigi has a disadvantage but G&W doesn't "destroy him" like you seem to believe. Upon checking, the Luigi boards think the match up is 60%/40% in favor of G&W. I think I now I agree with that, as long as the player is actually good and doesn't just spam the turtle, thinking they're unstoppable.

 

[cutter]

Except the attack lasts a while. He can do nothing else while it's going. If you're close you have plenty of time to jump and hit with a down air from above or back air from behind.

How are you going to punish Bair in this manner? G&W's Bair cannot be punished when spaced correctly. There is a reason why it is considered one of the best, if not THE best move in the game.

Game & Watch's back air is very good when it catches your opponent by surprise but it's not super broken like many of you seem to believe.

When you play G&W, you know he's going to be using his Bair. That doesn't mean you can stop it though. If G&W Bairs and you avoid it without punishing it, G&W can just Bair again.

It has its weaknesses just like any other attack.

Bair is not an unbeatable attack, but again, how is Luigi going to exploit Bair's very few weaknesses and punish G&W for using it?

A bunch of Game and Watch fanboys doesn't change facts. Luigi has a disadvantage but G&W doesn't "destroy him" like you seem to believe. Upon checking, the Luigi boards think the match up is 60%/40% in favor of G&W. I think I now I agree with that, as long as the player is actually good and doesn't just spam the turtle, thinking they're unstoppable.

The matchup is horrible for Luigi. He doesn't have disjointed hitboxes which is the reason he struggles against characters like G&W and MK. Getting infinited by DDD doesn't help his cause either.

 

[Yinlong]

i think he knows he lost
he's just looking for a way out now
let him off the hook lol...

 

[Grime]

G&W destroys Luigi

Please. Nobody 'destroys' anybody - they can have a major dis/advantage(s), sure. Going by the nature of your posts though, you seem to be overlooking one important factor: the PLAYER. His turtle is arguably a great move and a force to be reckoned with, but I think it's very arrogant to assume that it's unbeatable. Or that spamming a single move will dismantle Luigi or any character as a whole.

If your logic held any water, Ike would be god tier because you could just spam forward smash and violate.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

What are these weaknesses?

Have you even been reading my posts?

It doesn't hit above or behind him. It has disjointed hit boxes in front so attacking from above can be risky if you're too close. But he's completely defenseless from behind. The attack also has ending lag if it ends on the ground.

And I'm well aware that it has a ending hit box but not above or behind him so that's a moot point.

The weaknesses are: it lasts a while (this is a both a strength and a weakness). It's a weakness because if you're close, you have time to attack from above or leap behind and attack from behind. This is possible because the attack does not hit above or or behind. It has disjointed hitboxes in front but it leaves him vulnerable from above and behind. If they're being too predictable with that, you can punish them with that weakness.

tl;dr version: turtle is good but not perfect. Luigi has a slight disadvantage against G&W given the player doesn't think he can win by spamming turtle.

Now I'm tired of debating this. If what I've said hasn't sunk in by now then you're hopeless.

 

[Browny]

You've never played a good Luigi if you think such a simple brick wall works.

its not a brick wall... its closer to a full-speed armoured train

 

[Grime]

Unfortunately, even a full-speed armored train is restricted to a track.

 

[Empy]

Funny, however, they do have a point, Luigi is actually on that track and only allowed to leave it for half a second, in which he can't do anything. And when he comes back, the train is still there.

Anyway, prince, sure G&W can't win with just turtle but if you time turtle well it won't get punished. And saying that staying out long is a weakness when up close is ******** it punishes sidesteps and sure you can roll around your opponent the entire match but then he just spams dsmash instead of turtle for a while. So yeah, G&W has an easy time against Luigi.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

rolf @ Luigi > GaW

The turtle alone >>>>>>>>>> Weegee

 

[Negative_Two]

Have you even been reading my posts?

The weaknesses are: it lasts a while (this is a both a strength and a weakness). It's a weakness because if you're close, you have time to attack from above or leap behind and attack from behind. This is possible because the attack does not hit above or or behind. It has disjointed hitboxes in front but it leaves him vulnerable from above and behind. If they're being too predictable with that, you can punish them with that weakness.

tl;dr version: turtle is good but not perfect. Luigi has a slight disadvantage against G&W given the player doesn't think he can win by spamming turtle.

Now I'm tired of debating this. If what I've said hasn't sunk in by now then you're hopeless.

lolwut?

If a Gayman is right next to you, and he RAR turtles, what can you do?

Shielding = small shield, he can follow it up with another attack.

spotdodge = Get outlasted

retreat = get chased

Leap behind and attack....there....? = Obviously, you're over exaggerating the length of this move. If you start rolling, Gaymans can fastfall and will be all done turtling by the time your roll is done.

Go up??? = Won't you get hit leaping upwards, lol. If you go by some funky curve, Gaymans turtle is probably done by then (fastfalled) and he can Utilt, Uair, or Nair.

I personally believe that matchup is 65:35 (Gaymans favor of course), but nobody cares about the opinion of an 08 joiner with less than 20 posts =(