Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[DugFinn]

Unlike that M2K vs. Ally fiasco, I hope we have vids of him come.........April was it?

Yes, details are here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216278

Hmmm... Jack Kaiser, might it be useful to put up the Whobo information on the first post so people know about the Items tourney?

 

[Jack Kieser]

That's a good idea; I think I'm going to restructure the OP since the other thread we had for discussion in TD has been defunct for a while. While I'm doing that, I'll add WHOBO's info to the top.

 

[Zamuel]

I've been away for a while but it's good to see ISP has come along. Good luck on the upcoming tournament.

From what I've experienced, the best way to get people used to counterpick rules is to allow free play mini tournies beforehand and actively explain counterpicking during these. Your first round may be shaky as everyone settles in to it but it smooths out pretty quick. I'm not too keen on the "1 Final Smash only" idea since it seems way too prone for accidents to happen. Sigh...if only FSs required multiple pieces like Dragoon. I lean towards 1v1Counterpick for FS. I argue Bumper should be Counterpick for 2v2 since the ability to screw over your partner is a big factor. I would argue 1v1 Counterpick since Bumper has no loyalties and can be shielded but I know it can easily be argued the other way so I won't.

ISP (well, any item play) can probably allow you to shift the stage choices some.

 

[pure_awesome]

Accidents how?

 

[DugFinn]

Accidents how?

I'm assuming he's referring to accidentally hitting neutral B and activating the FS... Like how some accidentally SD, heh heh. Frankly, if a player doesn't have the thumb dexterity to keep from "accidentally" hitting "B", they deserve the consequences (match forfeit - it's only the match not the set).

 

[Zamuel]

@DF: There's also the issue of two things. First, people will be getting used to the system overall so some (first round) mistakes will be inevitable. Second, it's not common but there are people who will try to push their luck and deliberately try to alter things if a TO is looking. Still, I'm interested in seeing how it works out and will be looking forward to the vids for the tournament.

 

[Llumys]

I'm not hating this whole idea.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Holy hell, this thread now has one of the most epicly sized OP's I've ever seen. There is SO MUCH info there it almost makes my head hurt. For the record, I've merged this thread's functions with the old TD thread's functions, so now this is the only thread you need to go to for info and/or discussion (not like anyone ever used the other thread in recent history anyway). Woot.

Plus, made sure that Austin/WHOBO tourney info was placed in OP right at the top. I hope to see many people at both. ^_^

 

[Lemonwater]

Haha I love bombs, it saddens me to see the Bob-omb is banned, but I'm sure I know why.

Where is the Timer on the list? I don't see it.

 

[pure_awesome]

Timer [BANNED] - The Timer has the Super/Poison Mushroom's risk/reward system condensed into a single item, and as such creates its own inherent balance, but the effect of the Timer on the course of the battle outweighs that balance. The risk to using the Timer is that, on occasion, the Timer will slow all combatants down or slow only the user down, whereas the reward is the possibility of being able to drastically out speed the opponent; unfortunately, the rate of backfire is quite low, and there is no way to predict a backfire (it was once thought that the direction of the clock hand's movement hinted at the outcome of picking up a Timer, but that has since been disproven). Luckily, a player under the effect of the Timer gets the added bonus of increased air dodge length, meaning that skilled players will spend the majority of their time under the effect of the Timer spamming air dodges; even if hit one or two times, so much time is spent in air dodge invincibility animation that the user can only get a small number of hits in before the effect is over (it should be noted, however, that the length of cooldown time between air dodges is increased, as well, so strategy must be employed when dodging attacks in slowdown mode). A recent discovery, however, has yielded the finding that anyone possessing an 'electric' property attack can use the Timer to exploit the 'slowdown' effect (dramatic animation that freezes the target of an electrical attack in extra stun frames) of electrical attacks to freeze a target in place with no way for the target to move, racking up damage in a variety of ways. Because so many characters can exploit this technique, it falls out of the realm of balance and must be outright banned.


In the future, the easiest way to find something like that in a long post is to use the Find function. Press Ctrl+F and go nuts.

 

[Lemonwater]

Oh, thanks. No wonder. I just found it too. It wasn't at the top, but I read through the entire thing.

 

[Dekar173]

Great thread man. I'll be using this ruleset in local monthlies for ISP tourneys, not to mention attending WHOBO which is bound to be a blast!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, awesome! If you're planning on attending WHOBO, remember to pre-reg for your convention badge, otherwise it will cost a lot.

 

[Ref]

Umm just something that can change the timer to counter pick... You can smash DI out of the electrical combos... Or make them extremely difficult to do if you SDI...

 

[brinboy789]

whombo combo should be an AT lol

 

[Jack Kieser]

Guys, guys... DON'T FORGET IKKICON THIS WEEKEND!!

Info is in the OP!

 

[Lovely]

♪ I wish I could go to this tourney, but April is where Finals strike hard for me. DX

♪ Great to see your idea comming to life Jack Kieser. :D

 

[bobson]

You can't shorthop while you have a screw attack badge equipped. Only fullhop.
Not largely relevant, but I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

 

[petrie911]

I hope you'll have vids of the tournament. I'd love to see some high level ISP in action.

 

[Jack Kieser]

DugFinn recorded all of the finals, so we just have to wait for the upload. There were some pretty epic matches, I have to say. Can't wait for you guys to see them.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Oh my sweet Jesus.. I like the concept.. Even though I absolutely despise items.. its a great idea.

Holy freakin crap on the length.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I know, right? It seriously took for-freaking-EVER to put it all together, but it was worth it. Seeing it all in action in an actual large-scale tournament setting was priceless. I'm still rather giddy, although that probably has to do a lot with the con itself, as well... ^_^;

 

[Espy Rose]

I know, right? It seriously took for-freaking-EVER to put it all together, but it was worth it. Seeing it all in action in an actual large-scale tournament setting was priceless. I'm still rather giddy, although that probably has to do a lot with the con itself, as well... ^_^;

When can we expect videos?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I didn't do the recording, so I can't tell you for certain. The best I can say is as soon as DF & crew gets around to it. Wish I could be more specific... <_<

 

[Psychoace]

I didn't see any kind of recording setup when I was there and I was around the room for the majority of three days. 1v1 isp went pretty sloppily in the beginning, what with rules being broken right and left so meh. I didn't really get to stick around for finals, but that's a whole nother story all together.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The quarter, semi, and finals were the only matches recorded, IIRC, and those were done via replay (all of the finals matches were played on a hacked Wii for infinite replay and possibly no tripping), so they'll have to be recorded after-the-fact via capture card before they can be uploaded.

Yeah, we talked about the start of the 1v1's on day two, and came to the conclusion that it was all about information; most of the entrants were con-goers who didn't know the rules before hand. It was understandable that people who hadn't been on SWF or AiB or anything probably would be confused, so it all comes down to making sure that everyone involved is well-informed. As for the actual matches themselves (not any metagame stuff), I thought they went really well.

 

[DugFinn]

Yeah, the tournament itself went well, except for some of the rules (mostly just the FS one time per match rule) being broken left and right. As the word spread on the rules, it got better. Again, this was a test tourney with free entry, so the data gathered from it was more for the sake of gathering data than actually conducting a strict "real" tourney.

OK, so this is what we got out of it...

1. Four stock is too much. It'll have to stay at 3 stock. If and when ISP becomes more main stream, and more people know what to do with the items, etc, THEN this can be re-evaluated, but for now, a 3 stock ISP tournament relatively takes about the same time as a 4 stock.

2. One FS used per character per match worked out well. Withstanding of course, that people KNOW the rule. At Whobo, the ISP rules will be printed and posted ALL OVER the tournament room. Plus, they will be read over the PA system before the tournament starts. That should take care of that issue.

3. Jack Kaiser is cute. *wink* We need to do more friendlies at Whobo.

4. I should have the videos up before the end of the week. They're on the Wii of one of the crew members that was there, so I'll get them the next time I go to his house. Seriously, some of those matches were just too epic. I'll post the tourney results too.

 

[Jack Kieser]

1. Yes.

2. Indeed.

3. I'd blush if that weren't obvious truth. (^_~) And yes, we must do more friendlies, although it'd be best if you weren't injured while we played. : P Also, must remember camera, err... a good camera, preferably one that isn't my phone.

4. Yay! More vids = happy smashers. Much thanks for going through recording them; we all appreciate it. ^_^

 

[Psychoace]

They were told on the con forum too though. I guess some people just don't believe in the internet lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

2. One FS used per character per match worked out well. Withstanding of course, that people KNOW the rule. At Whobo, the ISP rules will be printed and posted ALL OVER the tournament room. Plus, they will be read over the PA system before the tournament starts. That should take care of that issue.

Question. How exactly can you possibly regulate the use of only one FS per character per match?

What if you grab the Smashball but cannot use your attack?
Sorry, but I've only recently shown interest in ISP, so I don't understand everything completely.

 

[ftl]

Question. How exactly can you possibly regulate the use of only one FS per character per match?

What if you grab the Smashball but cannot use your attack?
Sorry, but I've only recently shown interest in ISP, so I don't understand everything completely.

I can't find the single post answering that question; it was discussed around pages 37-38 or so of this thread somewhere, along with a bit of how it affects the characters and the play.

The way it works is that if someone uses your FS twice, they lose.

If they accidentally grab the smashball and have already used a FS once, they have to fight without using their neutral b, until their opponent knocks it out of them or they die.

 

[Jack Kieser]

This is basically correct. I'll make sure to add this info to the OP, or at least link to this post so that people can see it.

Final Smash Rules

One Final Smash may be used by each player PER MATCH. This means that, during any single match, a maximum of TWO Smash Balls may be activated (one per player). If a player activates his Final Smash more than ONCE per match, he AUTOMATICALLY FORFEITS the match. In addition, there is NO RESTRICTION on the number of times a player may POSSESS the Smash Ball. This means that you can grab the Smash Ball as a stop-gap measure to prevent your opponent from using it. WASTING FINAL SMASHES IS PROHIBITED; if you have already used your Final Smash and you re-grab the Smash Ball, you CANNOT USE YOUR NEUTRAL B at all. The only way you can regain use of your neutral B is to either lose the Smash Ball or die.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[shadowtroop]

Just a random thing you might add to your first post ('specialy the saturn part)

If you pick up an item with "A" but don't let go of "A" you can still smash (with c-stick, must be charged) and use aerials.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Awesome thread. I'm glad I found this as I thought I was the only one on these boards who likes items.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What is the individual accidentally hits B? I've had instances where I would hit side B a bit too quickly and a homing attack would come out instead of a pivoted side B.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What is the individual accidentally hits B? I've had instances where I would hit side B a bit too quickly and a homing attack would come out instead of a pivoted side B.

Then be more accurate. If you hit your neutral B AT ALL, even if it's an accident, and you've already used your FS, you forfeit. End of story. I'm sure you understand why we wouldn't be able to make judgment calls here; everyone would just say "Oops! Accident!", and would be able to get away with using 2 FS's. No good.

 

[POPS_44]

lol - Too bad for characters such as metaknight, grabbing the smash ball twice, he wont be able to use his torndo :D

 

[teh_spamerer]

Correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation of these rules plz

1) Only neutral items are allowed for R1

Loser switches the status of One (1) item
Winner switches the status of One (1) item
Loser switches the status of One (1) item

2) Players can switch the status of neutral and counterpick items

 

[Jack Kieser]

The quotation applies to the second bullet point, right? If so, then yes, you are correct. Basically, items counterpicking works in the same way as stage CP'ing; if you can do one, you can do the other. Just like stages, each player can strike a single item (any item) from the set, only neutral items can be on in the first round of the set, and in each subsequent round, counterpick-list items may be turned on during your CP phase. We tried to keep the formula as close to what competitive Smashers are already used to as possible.

 

[teh_spamerer]

The quotation applies to the second bullet point, right? If so, then yes, you are correct.

Yeah, I was talking about the quotation in my second bullet point. Thanks for confirming it.