Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Ekaru]

This list is useless Item's random nature makes them unbalanced.

Playing Pokemon is useless.

The game's random nature makes it unbalanced.

Now really, some people like to play with items. Why shouldn't they? This list allows them to play with items and have it more balanced when playing with items than just having them all on. So basically, yeah.

EDIT: Oh, and nice list.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Timers I'm fine with. You do have to get to the timer, and there's the risk it will backfire, causing you to be a victim of one of those timer combos. Plus, the really dangerous timer combos seem rather difficult. the rest are just a bit of damage racking and maybe a free smash, which you could get out of the pitfall, anyways.

Actually, the fact is that they're only useful for certain characters, but the ones that have been brought up are very easy to perform. One of Gannondorf's 2 combo tools only require two (particularly easy) ATs (short hop and thunderstorm) that any person who goes to any tournaments that plays Gannondorf will know. This is his murder stomp (aka dair). The other, his murder fist (jab) requires no ATs whatsoever.

Zelda and Falcon both require one easy AT, SHFF.

Pikachu requires NO ATs, it's just spammed f-smash till the timer wears out.

I haven't tested wolf, fox, and falco, I suspect their combos aren't quite as easy, but I have little doubt that they exist.


It's not like ease has anything to do with it anyway, this is a tournament format, we should be able to deal with all skill levels, not just newer players. If the format suddenly becomes unbalanced when two people of mew2king's level face off, then it's not a very good format.

since it's only a few chars that can do this, the item counterpick rule covers it nicely

Even if it's only for those chars it breaks the balance so massively when those chars are in that the items cannot be considered balanced. The counter-pick system is for balanced items that a person doesn't want in the match.

Add that to the fact that if you're opposing these chars you're forced to pick a removal or suffer the possibility of a insta-death combo with no real chance to beat. This removes the possibility of utilizing the counter-pick as a negation of less severe balance issues (the spring glitch for example, or the franken badge for ranged chars).


Also, keep in mind that the mentioned chars aren't the only ones with electric attacks. Wolf has 2, falco 2, fox has one and there are others. In the case of the shine it can be theoretically used after an attack to keep the opponent in hitstun for further comboing. Can they do an insta-death combo, I don't know yet, but it's a definite possibility.


Oh by the way, there's no way any reasonable player using these chars will be able to mess up on these combos. With the timer activated, running (either by walking or dashing) will not be able to save you, which means you'll need to use a technique that has cooldown frames or start-up frames, and when that happens, whichever it is will create enough of an opening to start the combo. F-smash kills at 76% for gannondorf, approaching and this will not waste enough time to avoid 4 dairs and an f-smash, and that's at 0%.

Fact: Ganon's Murder Stomp has so much stun, that when the timer is active, you can "combo" a Murder Fist out of it.

And the Timer rarely backfires.

EDIT: Re-tested it. It's a true combo.

EDIT2: Previous edit only seems to work on Metaknight, or I was just lucky.
Auto-cancel.

Lol, it's not just murder firsts that have a true combo from murder stomp when the timer is activated. The 310 damage combo I mentioned above IS a true combo. The consecutive hit counter goes up and the opponent is certainly still in hitstun the entire time. I just like to mention that combo because it's particularly scary-sounding.



Oh, and thunderstorming isn't really auto-canceling because nothing is canceled. It's just timing starting the dair so that it's the lag is over before Gannondorf reaches the ground. If he's still in lag when he reaches the ground he gets a considerable amount of lag. It's only auto-canceling if the character hits the ground during some point during the move which results in the lag being canceled.

This list is useless Item's random nature makes them unbalanced.

Did you bother to read the first post?

This is specifically mod-approved and to be used only for discussion about making items more balanced in a competitive environment. In fact specifically stated "if you don't like items then don't bother participating in this discussion".

The first post

So follow Samuraipanda's advice, and leave item-users and project supporters to discuss this in peace.

Don't believe it was him, well then why is the thread stickied?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I was going to respond, but it seems that adumbrodeus has done that already.

 

[Shining Blitz]

I agree, Timer cannot be on by default. All too often, it breaks the strategic attributes of Item Counterpicks. However, would anyone be willing to try letting it stay ON, but be deactivated by default? That is, it can be counterpicked, but it defaults to OFF. That'll add some strategy and balance to the item, at least in regards to pre-match strategy, and will be a fairer scenario for test tourneys.

 

[Milln]

*offers up discussion of the star rod* I did a search through the thread and nothing came up, so let me start it. I have no problem with the Star Rod's projectile and bludgeoning properties. I only have a question about when it's actively thrown. It exudes strong knockback and sends players at a negative angle, and if the player is on a stage, their only hope is to tech, which may not even be possible depending on how they're being launched. If used more towards the edge (not at it, but closer to it than from the middle of the stage) I believe it may be unrecoverable from when characters are knocked too far away and below-ish the stage and request the situation to be looked into.

On the same note, don't Pitfalls drag an airbone player straight down near-unrecoverable? Easy gimp kills if you manage to hit them? I suggest that phenomenon be double-checked to be determined safe, too.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I can help you with those two items. As far as the Star Rod is concerned, I consider it to be the second best bludgeon when thrown (I'm sure you can guess the first) because of that downward angle; in my observations, the sharp angle is what makes it seem like the Star Rod has more knockback than it actually does (just a little more than the Beam Sword), but that sharp angle is part of its allure. You're totally right that if an opponent is either on the edge or already off the stage, a successful Star Rod throw will probably result in death (at % above ~50, at least), but we allow it for the same reason we allow the Pitfall: thanks to the new auto-catch mechanic and multiple air dodges, it is easy for a seasoned player to just catch or dodge the item, and chances are that if you couldn't (perhaps you couldn't wait long enough for your Up-B to be used safely), you could have been edgeguarded any number of other ways, too. Oh, and yes, the Pitfall does Meteor Smash in the air.

 

[Zamuel]

I need to add something else in favor of Unira being approved. When I mentioned that Jigglypuff can deactivate the Unira with a punch I wasn't talking about Pound. I was talking about jab/Doubleslap or at least ftilt or an aerial. In friendly FFA matches in my aera it's pretty common to steal a Unira from someone (unless they notice and guard it). Obviously, there's tons of strategfy to it's placement but it simply isn't broken. Also, I need someone to double check this but the vacuum affects seem to only affect grounded opponents.

 

[Milln]

Mmkay. =o Thanks. Nevermind, then. XD

 

[Crooked Crow]

Timer is not balanced.. lol

 

[Shining Blitz]

What does anyone have to say about my suggestion?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sorry I haven't replied yet; work and such. It's an interesting thought, but it would require having two lists, kind of like how stages have neutral and counterpicks, as well as hard bans. Frankly, it's just crazy enough to work. I'd have to restructure the lists (obviously), which means I'll have to go through and re-criterion some things, but I'll tell you what: I'll ask the community about this one.

If you think that having neutral, counterpick, AND hard ban item lists are a good idea, then let it be know, and I'll get to work on it.

 

[Linkplayer5678]

This list is okay, but they is one problem.

Timer [APPROVED]

Better luck next time.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

Jack, can you post your thoughts on this.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4592771&postcount=232

 

[adumbrodeus]

This list is okay, but they is one problem.

Better luck next time.

Being addressed, it always was a boarderline item but essentially we decided it was far too unbalanced to be on by default within the last 2 pages.


After I told them about my 14 hit, 310, dair, dair...dair to f-smash combo with ganondorf.

Sorry I haven't replied yet; work and such. It's an interesting thought, but it would require having two lists, kind of like how stages have neutral and counterpicks, as well as hard bans. Frankly, it's just crazy enough to work. I'd have to restructure the lists (obviously), which means I'll have to go through and re-criterion some things, but I'll tell you what: I'll ask the community about this one.

If you think that having neutral, counterpick, AND hard ban item lists are a good idea, then let it be know, and I'll get to work on it.

A very interesting idea. The question is probably how to properly apply it.


For starters, Frankin badge, goey bomb, Timer, and super scope to counter-pick. Anyone else have thoughts?



Also, for the moment, could we get timer changed to banned? Little point confusing people when we've decided to ban it already.

 

[JrdnS]

glad you took the time to do this. even though i dont use items its interesting to read which items are extremely cheap and which are fair

 

[Jack Kieser]

Whew, this morning has been a really busy one. Let me address some of the questions/comments/concerns.

@ Linkplayer5678: Yeah, I just haven't updated the OP yet; we addressed the Timer and its flaws, and now I can't see why we would logically allow it with what it allows. Counterpick? Maybe. But certainly not a neutral allow.

@Homelessvagrant: Actually, I did see that a while back, and I took it into account. If you check the AT paragraph in the OP, I'm pretty sure I addressed it and added your comments.

@adumbrodeus: Yeah, I just never got around to updating the Timer's entry. I'll do that today. As far as 'properly applying' a CP item list... I'll keep thinking about that. I'm sure it'd be almost just like CP'ing stages. Just as long as the item isn't patently broken, it should be ok.

@JrdnS: Well, we try. ^_^

 

[Onomanic]

well the list is a good one except I have one problem with the hammer. depending on stages, it screw up the user (e.g. at corneria) but thats the risk for the item. plus, it will add a bunch of interesting twists to the battle and making the K.O's massively chaotic and fun. on second thought, i like the idea of a hammer as approved. but a good question is, how high is the item frequency going to be on? i would say low to medium. sorry if it was in somewhere in the thread; quite frankly, there is a lot to read (lol jk i'm just to lazy)

 

[adumbrodeus]

well the list is a good one except I have one problem with the hammer. depending on stages, it screw up the user (e.g. at corneria) but thats the risk for the item. plus, it will add a bunch of interesting twists to the battle and making the K.O's massively chaotic and fun. on second thought, i like the idea of a hammer as approved. but a good question is, how high is the item frequency going to be on? i would say low to medium. sorry if it was in somewhere in the thread; quite frankly, there is a lot to read (lol jk i'm just to lazy)

Actually, the reason the hammer is approved is because it's a very dangerous item to use, so you need to take into account the heavy risk.


Also it's quite easy to counter, certain vB moves obviously destroy it, but beyond that, every character has ways to defeat the hammer.

Really, it doesn't make things chaotic realistically. It's too easy to control the situation when a hammer is out.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Unfortunately, due to the vBulletin upgrade I can't update the thread title right now; I did, however, update the OP with a new Neutral, Counterpick, Banned list system, as well as updated the item impressions to reflect the changes. Check it out if you have the time.

 

[Onomanic]

Actually, the reason the hammer is approved is because it's a very dangerous item to use, so you need to take into account the heavy risk.


Also it's quite easy to counter, certain vB moves obviously destroy it, but beyond that, every character has ways to defeat the hammer.

Really, it doesn't make things chaotic realistically. It's too easy to control the situation when a hammer is out.

ah ok then

 

[Jack Kieser]

Fixed the problem with updating the thread title (didn't realize you can only do it through the advanced edit menu now), so I'll keep showing updates there.

 

[Twin Dreams]

How To Combat a Hammer --


1. Run to edge
2. Stand there
2.5 shoot projectiles
3. Shield Grab when approached
4. throw them off edge

 

[Jack Kieser]

Amen.

10gimps

 

[Ban3]

How To Combat a Hammer --


1. Run to edge
2. Stand there
2.5 shoot projectiles
3. Shield Grab when approached
4. throw them off edge

lol that actually works? i gotta try that lol

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yes. It works wonders. Hammers are notoriously easy to beat with simple powershield->shieldgrabs; most people just freak out when someone grabs a hammer and end up getting themselves killed because they lose their cool. Ledgestalling actually works just as well, too, so if you aren't confident in your powershielding, just grab the ledge (or be a tether character; they never should get hit by a hammer).

 

[Ban3]

most people just freak out when someone grabs a hammer and end up getting themselves killed because they lose their cool.

that explains me perfectly lol

 

[Amarkov]

I'm not entirely sure why you've put the Dragoon as a counterpick item. It's pretty obvious that you cannot effectively run away from a targeting cursor that moves faster than you. So you have to somehow dodge just before the Dragoon is fired; if you leave reaction time for your opponent, they'll just wait and shoot you during the ending lag.

I don't think it will affect play too much, because it's not trivial to get the entire Dragoon. But more testing really isn't needed to conclude that it's pretty much a free stock.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I've decided to put the Dragoon on the CP list because if you play with it enough times, you learn ways to beat it. As a corollary, play with it enough, and you learn the most effective ways to aim. Basically, the amount of broken that certain items possess is greatly over exaggerated because item play is such a rarity. Yes, the Dragoon is a free stock... if it hits. And yes, certain characters have trouble dodging it. But, item CPs come before character picks, so no sane Dedede/Ike/Bowser/[Insert Slow Character Here] would go into a match with said character knowing that the Dragoon is turned on. Just like how utterly stupid it is to go choose DK if you know your opponent is playing Dedede.

Basically, the Dragoon is weak to things that move the screen; if you run around, but the screen stays immobile, the aimer has little to do to score a hit. If the screen moves, however, he has to counteract the screen movement as well as track you with the cursor.

I know it's kinda been a roundabout way of saying it, but I guess the whole point I'm trying to make here is I... hate... SAUERKRAUT!

[+10 Points if you get the reference]

 

[adumbrodeus]

I've decided to put the Dragoon on the CP list because if you play with it enough times, you learn ways to beat it. As a corollary, play with it enough, and you learn the most effective ways to aim. Basically, the amount of broken that certain items possess is greatly over exaggerated because item play is such a rarity. Yes, the Dragoon is a free stock... if it hits. And yes, certain characters have trouble dodging it. But, item CPs come before character picks, so no sane Dedede/Ike/Bowser/[Insert Slow Character Here] would go into a match with said character knowing that the Dragoon is turned on. Just like how utterly stupid it is to go choose DK if you know your opponent is playing Dedede.

Basically, the Dragoon is weak to things that move the screen; if you run around, but the screen stays immobile, the aimer has little to do to score a hit. If the screen moves, however, he has to counteract the screen movement as well as track you with the cursor.

I know it's kinda been a roundabout way of saying it, but I guess the whole point I'm trying to make here is I... hate... SAUERKRAUT!

[+10 Points if you get the reference]

Difficult, but with enough technical skill and practice, you can get it every time.


Lol at the wierd al reference.

 

[Jack Kieser]

...and here are your 10 points, sir.

 

[Swordplay]

because of the spot activation I wanted to put AT's as neutral and pokemon as counterpick. I feel like the really good pokemon are really impossible to dodge and there are alot more good pokemon than AT's Since good At's are so rare I wanted neutral but I understand counterpick. I just feel that even the best At's are dodgable but some of the pokemon are not. I mean what if that huge as red pokemon comes out in the middle of battlefield taking up the whole stage.....At's arn't that broken.

I understand both being counterpick but I feel AT's arn't as broken and could be moved to neutral while keeping pokemon at counterpick

 

[Jack Kieser]

because of the spot activation I wanted to put AT's as neutral and pokemon as counterpick. I feel like the really good pokemon are really impossible to dodge and there are alot more good pokemon than AT's Since good At's are so rare I wanted neutral but I understand counterpick. I just feel that even the best At's are dodgable but some of the pokemon are not. I mean what if that huge as red pokemon comes out in the middle of battlefield taking up the whole stage.....At's arn't that broken.

I understand both being counterpick but I feel AT's arn't as broken and could be moved to neutral while keeping pokemon at counterpick

The only real reason that AT's have to stay off the neutral list is because their only counter is to dodge. You can't knock an AT off the stage or interrupt an AT's attack, so the reward gained from successfully picking up an AT (which is not that hard anyway) is pretty large in comparison to the risk involved in using it.

 

[Swordplay]

I understand there is no risk in using the AT once it is picked up but picking it up is a risk. you have to stand still to pick it up and if you are being attacked the standstill animation will cause you to flee and run around. I also feel like the animation can be interupted during activation by being hit.

Thanks for clearing it up but I just thought the risk was in the activation because of lack of mobility. Think about it....to activate it you must stand on ground and it takes frames and can be interupted....however if you are being attacked you can't pick up another item and repel your attacker. You almost must comfromnt him and repel him and then activate it. Don't forget if you activate it near him WILL smash you. and the reward was well....the AT

I just thought there was risk even if it was low risk and a modestest reward. But if you and the smash community don't think this risk is large enough then i suppose counterpick would be more suitable.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh, we tried taking the pickup animation into account (I thought I added that to the AT paragraph, but I might have missed it), but you're right; it's really not enough of a risk to justify it being a purely neutral item.

 

[Swordplay]

Okay as long as you take it into account I am satisfied....You did have like 1 sentence about it but didn't really explain it so i just wanted clarification on why you classified it that way

I also have another request...I play alot of doubles matches with items and i was wondering if you could make a ruling on the Team Healer item. In terms of healing it heals alot but it takes massive amount of coordination. Could you assign neutral counter or banned status to this item please when you have the chance

 

[-Linko-]

i.e: We want 2v2 item N/C/B lists. Kieser, didn't you hold 2v2 on your last tourney? That was the perfect place for tests.

 

[Swordplay]

I couldn't of said it better myself.....is there any way a 2v2 item N/C/B list could be created? or if it would be the exactly the same as the singles N/C/B list can you add team healer in a sub section of the singles list?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Man, I wanted to hold 2v2 in my last tournament so bad, but we didn't have enough people who wanted to play. I can definitely get a 2v2 list knocked out by the end of the week, though (a rough one, at least). If I get it done this week, I'll go ahead and start setting up a 2v2 focused tournament to test it out (assuming that it goes over well).

 

[thepinkpoo]

wait, what?
you can counterpick items?
i don't understand

 

[Doggalina]

Although I usually played no item tourney rules, my friends and I may test out this Item Standard Play thing. Could be interesting. If we do it enough, I may write up some impressions.

Good work, and this is coming from somebody who really enjoys no item, standard tourney rules.