Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[doodmahn]

One time, on teams in With Anyone, I hit one guy with the soccer ball, it bounced off of them and then hit a spring, and then hit an opponent right above the spring. That was the most awesome double KO I've ever gotten.

 

[Vro]

The only way the item would not be broken is if camping itself were broken. And camping is broken, the badge doesn't HELP enough, as you can just go back to camping in half a minute.

QFT. Don't put a band-aid on slash wound.

 

[Twin Dreams]

All the problems with Beam swords and Franklin badges aren't that big of a deal.



If your character isn't as good with beam swords, use your item switch to ban it. If your using a projectile character, ban it. That simple.




Also --



The rules should be.


Advanced Slob Item Picks --

Loser switches status of one item.
Winner switches status of one item.
Loser switches status of one item.

Advanced Slob picks --

Loser picks stage.
Winner picks character.
Loser picks character.




It should be in that order. So you can choose your character according to the items that may spawn. So, you choose a projectile character accepting the fact that the franklin badge may spawn. You accept that your character is not as good with a beam sword as others, and know that it may spawn.

 

[Amarkov]

All the problems with Beam swords and Franklin badges aren't that big of a deal.



If your character isn't as good with beam swords, use your item switch to ban it. If your using a projectile character, ban it. That simple.

If my opponent gets a beam sword, all my attacks are still functional. If my opponent gets a Franklin Badge, any projectile attacks do not work. Furthermore, unlike a beam sword (which prevents use of aerials), the badge does not inconvenience my opponent in any way.

Item switches should be for items that give you a DISADVANTAGE, not ones that instantly gimp you with no possible counter. Franklin Badge falls in the latter category, so it should be banned by default.

 

[storm92]

If my opponent gets a beam sword, all my attacks are still functional. If my opponent gets a Franklin Badge, any projectile attacks do not work. Furthermore, unlike a beam sword (which prevents use of aerials), the badge does not inconvenience my opponent in any way.

Item switches should be for items that give you a DISADVANTAGE, not ones that instantly gimp you with no possible counter. Franklin Badge falls in the latter category, so it should be banned by default.

I agree whole-heartedly with this view.
Franklin Badge isn't dangerous to the opponent but when it gimps so many character's projectiles for a decent amount of time, it should be banned.

 

[DugFinn]

You know, even if your opponent has the Franklin badge and you're projectiles are mute for a whopping (<-- sarcasm) 30 sec... You can still, oh I don't know... Fight up close, use projectiles that are not canceled out by the badge (many exist, go look for them, I'm not about to sit here and type them all out for you), use other items to attack with that are not projectiles (and MANY exist), get the badge before your opponent gets it by having terrain control, and, oh yeah, did I mention fighting up close with your freakin' kicks, punches, and smash attacks if need be. Come on guys, seriously, there a bunch of things you can do besides spam projectiles for half a minute. Don't act like it's the end of the world.

 

[Cooper736]

You know, even if your opponent has the Franklin badge and you're projectiles are mute for a whopping (<-- sarcasm) 30 sec... You can still, oh I don't know... Fight up close, use projectiles that are not canceled out by the badge

This. There is no character in the game whose playstyle is comprised entirely of projectiles and camping: the spacies are rather good at close combat and will only use lasers to draw you in - they are by no means restricted by their guns; all of Snake's projectiles can detonate next to a player (none of them have to hit to deal damage), and besides that, he's got the fastest attacks of any heavy character; Pit shouldn't be camping anyway with his speed and combos.

The point is that none of the characters commonly accused of camping actually rely solely on their projectiles to win a game. Their range is an effective tool, but by no means is it their only means of dealing damage. The Franklin Badge is detrimental to your opponent because it forces them to change their playstyle for 30 seconds, but it's not nearly broken enough to deserve an outright ban.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Right. All the campers just use their projectiles as a way to draw the opponent in closer.



Scenario 1 --

Pit vs. X

Pit uses B over and over again until close combat is needed.


Scenario 2 --

Pit vs. someone with a reflector


Pit stands on the side of the stage and wait for you to enter combat.

 

[cman]

Honestly, the franklin badge does not gimp characters a bannable amount. If camping is the only way you know how to play, then you should probably get a little bit better at your character. Not only that, it can also be knocked off. It fine because of that.

Also, i now agree that the negatives for the gooey bomb outweigh the positives stated throughout the thread.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Right. Even if it doesn't kill until around 100%. Brawl as a LOT more survivability than melee. 100% is a lot in melee. I regularly live into the 200s.

 

[heroboy]

I'm gonna have to still say Gooey Bomb should be banned.

People live to higher percents in brawl, as Twin Dreams said, and relatively, it's kill percent is not that high. It explodes on contact. It provides little to no strategic value. If it's thrown, it will either miss or hit. If it connects, it will be dodged when the time is up. (there's a visual cue.) If it doesn't connect, it can be forgotten, until the time it comes when it will be dodged or jumped over. When it appears in combat, basically, I make sure I do not attack (if I can), if I can, I'll throw it. And I basically ignore it until it's about to explode, and if I'm near it, I dodge it.

Franklin Badge is not a problem. No character only uses projectiles, you'll be fine.

 

[Fire!]

Franklin Badge is not a problem. No character only uses projectiles, you'll be fine.

Yeah but if your playing with items on in the first place, items like the Beam Sword and Bat, will be thrown and anyone who knows what it's like to have a bat reflected back at you will hate the Franklin Badge

 

[heroboy]

just wait until the opponent's badge falls off, then throw it.

 

[DugFinn]

Yeah but if your playing with items on in the first place, items like the Beam Sword and Bat, will be thrown and anyone who knows what it's like to have a bat reflected back at you will hate the Franklin Badge

Knowing the badge is on them, WHY would you throw anything at them to begin with? That'd be stupid to do. If you forgot they had it on them, throw, then when you see it reflected, shield or dodge.

 

[TriforceCore]

Listen I like the list but....(sorry didnt bother looking at the other pages)....Timer should be banned, when under the Timers positive effect(you same speed, opponents slower) HIT STUN DURATION IS INCREASED! so you can be pikachu and spam Fsmash or zelda and spam electric kick for an easy +100-160% . Try it go to training mode and test and if this isnt sufficeint enough for a ban then I apologize. But seriously test it out

 

[Mattnumbers]

The beamsword is also just a cheap Item, It has no negative aspects and it has massive range and priority. Its a deadlier weapon than a hammer, because with a hammer you have high risk. A thrown bat is also much to powerful to be unbanned.

 

[Cooper736]

Right. All the campers just use their projectiles as a way to draw the opponent in closer.

Is this sarcasm? Because this is exactly what I was talking about.... Except possibly substituting Snake for Pit to eliminate the possible noob factor.

 

[Twin Dreams]

The beamsword is also just a cheap Item, It has no negative aspects and it has massive range and priority. Its a deadlier weapon than a hammer, because with a hammer you have high risk. A thrown bat is also much to powerful to be unbanned.

Beamsword isn't that good when being used.


Honestly, any of the bludgeoning weapons are going to be used for throwing. Let's all remember....


You can catch thrown items!!!!


So, anyone saying, X item is blah blah when thrown. It doesn't matter. Learn to catch them.

Is this sarcasm? Because this is exactly what I was talking about.... Except possibly substituting Snake for Pit to eliminate the possible noob factor.

I was agreeing with you, then gave an example.

 

[Vro]

The beamsword is also just a cheap Item, It has no negative aspects and it has massive range and priority.

Restricted moveset, including the inability to grab is not a negative aspect? Smashing with the beamsword is so slow, and all other attacks have little damage and knockback.

Like Twin Dreams said, all bludgeoning items are better off being thrown, with a counter of being caught. End of story.

You know, even if your opponent has the Franklin badge and you're projectiles are mute for a whopping (<-- sarcasm) 30 sec... You can still, oh I don't know... Fight up close, use projectiles that are not canceled out by the badge (many exist, go look for them, I'm not about to sit here and type them all out for you), use other items to attack with that are not projectiles (and MANY exist), get the badge before your opponent gets it by having terrain control, and, oh yeah, did I mention fighting up close with your freakin' kicks, punches, and smash attacks if need be. Come on guys, seriously, there a bunch of things you can do besides spam projectiles for half a minute. Don't act like it's the end of the world.

Consider this: One of the factors for ISP is that there must be a level of risk/reward. There is absolutely no risk to putting on the Franklin Badge and the reward is 30 seconds of near camping immunity. You are free to approach or retreat, while your opponent's moveset has been limited. There is no counter to this item because it only limits your moveset. You always have your moveset, thus it's not a counter.

Also, you can't get it by having terrain control, because it spawns randomly and can be picked up with any attack. Requiring absolutely no skill to pick up or use it, it just rewards luck.

 

[Shining Blitz]

I think you forgot an item in the OP, Jack (Woah, I feel like I'm talking to myself): The Team Healer. I understand that there are going to be different ban lists in 2v2 (at least, I hope so!), but we should definately test this out. I don't think Team Healer should be banned, personaly, for the following reasons:

1. The item has no effect on the original user, and is thus completely optional and unintrusive
2. It encourages teamwork, as the item can only be used with 100% certainty to help a teammate
3. It has a fair Risk/Reward balance, both for the user and the opposing team. Example: Player A1 picks up a TH to throw at A2. Players B1 and B2 can either:
   • Intercept the throw, either gaining a small amount of damage back or taking a similar amount of damage
   • Catch the TH, and keep the item in play, switching places with Team A (However, as players B1 and B2 are likely near one another, they may be able to utilize it better)

Thus, the Team Healer is, without a doubt in my mind, a fair, balanced, and strategic item.

 

[Vro]

I agree with the Team Healer item. Altho healing in any way is very profound on any game, the system the Team Healer is implemented in seems very fair.

 

[heroboy]

Could you atleast name one character that can't hold their own for a mere thirty seconds (or less) against an opponent with a franklin badge?

I understand that you have near camping immunity, but I'm sure the camper knows how to handle an opponent up close (at least temporarily). A camper attacks from afar until their opponent comes into close range. At this point, they try to extend the range, and continue camping. The opponent WILL get to the camper. It has to happen atleast once. The camper will know how to knock you away again. So how is this different when you have a Badge on? They just can't shoot at you when you approach. They stand at the other end, and when you approach, they knock you away. And repeat until you lose your badge. Camping will ensue again.

Sure, I suppose it's broken to someone who uses only projectiles, but I can't think of an example that warrants a ban.

 

[Amarkov]

Could you atleast name one character that can't hold their own for a mere thirty seconds (or less) against an opponent with a franklin badge?

I understand that you have near camping immunity, but I'm sure the camper knows how to handle an opponent up close (at least temporarily). A camper attacks from afar until their opponent comes into close range. At this point, they try to extend the range, and continue camping. The opponent WILL get to the camper. It has to happen atleast once. The camper will know how to knock you away again. So how is this different when you have a Badge on? They just can't shoot at you when you approach. They stand at the other end, and when you approach, they knock you away. And repeat until you lose your badge. Camping will ensue again.

Sure, I suppose it's broken to someone who uses only projectiles, but I can't think of an example that warrants a ban.

You're missing the point.

The issue is not that the badge is BROKEN, in the sense that it will make a projectile character lose if it spawns. That clearly is not the case.

It WILL, however, give the opponent a considerable advantage for the thirty seconds it lasts. And there is absolutely ZERO risk or disadvantage in proportion to this. The entire idea behind banning some items is that they give too much advantage for too little cost.

 

[Mr Mattastic]

I told you fan's should have been banned in the first place

 

[Yuna]

Why is the hothead allowed? It clearly gives you a great advantage for no risk at all, especially if you have the ability to enlarge it. It can set up for broken pressure, combos and at the same time prevents your opponent from moving around freely or even juggle you since it might come around and knock them out of juggling you while you're immune to it. It also stays out for quite a long time.

It's this broken and overpowered.

 

[Shining Blitz]

Why is the hothead allowed? It clearly gives you a great advantage for no risk at all, especially if you have the ability to enlarge it. It can set up for broken pressure, combos and at the same time prevents your opponent from moving around freely or even juggle you since it might come around and knock them out of juggling you while you're immune to it. It also stays out for quite a long time.

It's this broken and overpowered.

I somewhat agree, Yuna. I understand the strategic value of the item, but it does get very powerful and very fast easily, and there is a real Risk vs. Reward unbalance. On the other hand, on multi-platform stages, and stages that dissapear into the ground, like Yoshi's Story, it is more balanced due to limited range and/or existance time. Also, the more powerful it gets, the quicker it dissapears. This may have to be decided on a stage-by-stage basis. If that is too much trouble- which it very well might be- than I agree, it should be banned.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

If I could make a suggestion to the OP of this topic: You should put something at the end of each description to make it easier to see if an item should be banned or accepted. Something like:
BANNED
APPROVED

Just to make it easier to read. I read most of it, but honestly I just wanted to quickly skim it to see the conclusion of each item.

Also, you may want to make use of color coding, bold, underline, etc just to make the overall post look more interesting. It looks a bit boring and makes me not want to read it >.<

 

[Jack Kieser]

If I could make a suggestion to the OP of this topic: You should put something at the end of each description to make it easier to see if an item should be banned or accepted. Something like:
BANNED
APPROVED

Just to make it easier to read. I read most of it, but honestly I just wanted to quickly skim it to see the conclusion of each item.

Also, you may want to make use of color coding, bold, underline, etc just to make the overall post look more interesting. It looks a bit boring and makes me not want to read it >.<

Done and... done! The OP has been color coordinated for ease of use and prettiness.

 

[Yuna]

I somewhat agree, Yuna. I understand the strategic value of the item, but it does get very powerful and very fast easily, and there is a real Risk vs. Reward unbalance. On the other hand, on multi-platform stages, and stages that dissapear into the ground, like Yoshi's Story, it is more balanced due to limited range and/or existance time. Also, the more powerful it gets, the quicker it dissapears. This may have to be decided on a stage-by-stage basis. If that is too much trouble- which it very well might be- than I agree, it should be banned.

It still gives a very unfair advantage (i.e. broken) for no risk. Even if it's just for one platform on a multi-platform stage, that's still one platform the opponent cannot step on without getting hit. You can hit him there and combo from there or you can camp there and he won't be able to do much. It's too strong for absolutely no risk at all.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Yup, hothead for ban. That stage is so impractical on stages like FD.

 

[salaboB]

One other note about the Black Hammer that you didn't mention (And hopefully hasn't been brought up in the thread and I just missed it, the thread has gotten pretty long) -- its head can fall off when you pick it up, adding a bit of extra risk to the decision to grab it or not, since you're in an extremely vulnerable state to your opponent scooping up the head and throwing it at you while you pointlessly wave a stick around.

AFAIK the Golden Hammer doesn't suffer from that at all, which further unbalances it (At least in comparison to the Black).

 

[Ignatius]

One thing I wanted to add, I think your analysis on the Smart Bomb is wrong. Even caught in the center of the blast with Bowser, I can DI out of it fast enough to only take 7-8% and avoid the last hit of the bomb as well.

If anything it should be banned for being able to spawn mid-attack and punish you for attacking similar to a bomb-ombs ability to, but less severe.

 

[Zankoku]

AFAIK the Golden Hammer doesn't suffer from that at all, which further unbalances it (At least in comparison to the Black).

I don't know if there's any way to tell before you pick it up, but the Golden Squeaky Hammer is just as devastating to accidentally pick up.

 

[SothE700k]

Due to that squeak. All of a sudden "*&^&!! A SQUEAK!!" *dies*

I'll admit, i'm not usually happy about threads like this, but I'm impressed with the thought and actual logic people are coming up with on this thread

Maybe I should talk to my friends about this, they love items so we can all compromise...

 

[infernovia]

The hammers can also be perfectshielded to out of shield attacks. I didn't see that in the OP so I am just mentioning it.

 

[Super-Saiyan-2]

ITEMS APPROVED THUS FAR:

(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Metal Box) (Bunny Hood) (Timer) (Beam Sword) (Home-Run Bat) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Hammer) (Super Scope) (Ray Gun) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Hothead) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Spring) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)


All those items can ruine tactics. If you play with those, then you ought to play with all the items.

 

[Amarkov]

ITEMS APPROVED THUS FAR:

(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Metal Box) (Bunny Hood) (Timer) (Beam Sword) (Home-Run Bat) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Hammer) (Super Scope) (Ray Gun) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Hothead) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Spring) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)


All those items can ruine tactics. If you play with those, then you ought to play with all the items.

Of course items make some tactics worse. That's not a bad thing; it just makes a different game. The only reason to ban an item (if we're assuming item play, which we are here) is if its reward is of much greater value than any disadvantage you get from using it.

I do agree that Franklin Badge should be banned. But nothing else there is blatantly unbalanced. I mean, ray gun? Is getting a free space animal blaster REALLY that good, if it means you can't use aerials?

 

[Cooper736]

ITEMS APPROVED THUS FAR:

(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Metal Box) (Bunny Hood) (Timer) (Beam Sword) (Home-Run Bat) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Hammer) (Super Scope) (Ray Gun) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Gooey Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Hothead) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Spring) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

Why, pray tell, would you want to ban the Green Shell? Sure it's fast, but it's easily avoidable by jumping, and if it hits a wall (not to say there are any neutral stages with walls) it can hurt the thrower. It also takes away all of your aerials until you throw it. A brainless monkey would have enough sense to know to stay a reasonable distance from an opponent, and that air = a throw.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^About this "it takes away you're aerials until you throw it" thing. You guys do realize that dropping an item in the air only takes 1 frame right?

 

[Amarkov]

^^About this "it takes away you're aerials until you throw it" thing. You guys do realize that dropping an item in the air only takes 1 frame right?

Well, yes, but just dropping an item doesn't do much useful.