Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats not a personal list. That is a list of 14 panelists including top players from around the world.

 

[Bones0]

bones:

-why is falcon so high?

-how is peach advantaged on falco? we've seen little evidence to support that the MU is anything but even.

-why are fox and jigglypuff so low?

-how is falcon advantaged on peach?

I guess what really gets me is how falcon is so high. I have him all the way down to 9th on my personal list.

I replied to most of these. I will go back and see if I can find them.

 

[unknown522]

im always astounded by the fact that people think that I'm angry everytime I insult someone

I just like seeing their reaction, sheesh

if only I could like this post

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Compared to the previous tier list..

[collapse=Differentials]S:
Fox 1.47 -> 1.57 (-.10)
Falco 2.5 -> 1.86 (+.64)

A:
Sheik 3.47 -> 3.14 (+.33)
Marth 4.86 -> 4.43 (+.43)
Puff 3.03 -> 4.64 (-1.61)
Peach 5.92 -> 5.79 (+.13)

B:
Falcon 6.77 -> 7.00 (-.23)
ICs 8.15 -> 7.93 (+.22)
Doc 9.65 -> 8.86 (+.79)

C:
Samus 10.57 -> 10.64 (-.07)
:ganonmelee:Ganon 9.96 -> 11.36 (-1.40)
Pikachu 12.94 -> 11.86 (+1.08)
Luigi 13.25 -> 12.85 (+.40)
Mario 13.00 -> 13.71 (-.71)

D:
DK 14.81 -> 15.46 (-.65)
Y Link 17.45 -> 16.29 (+1.16)
Link 16.03 -> 16.38 (-.35)
Zelda 19.42 -> 18.08 (+1.34)
Yoshi 20.59 -> 18.85 (+1.74)

E:
Roy 19.76 -> 20.67 (-.91)
Mewtwo 19.85 -> 20.67 (-.83)
:gwmelee:G&W 20.73 -> 21.33 (-.60)
Ness 22.94 -> 22.54 (+.40)

F:
Kirby 25.02 -> 24.15 (+.87)
Bowser 23.67 -> 24.25 (-.58)
Pichu 25.02 -> 24.62 (+.40)[/collapse]

[collapse="ordered"]Yoshi 20.59 -> 18.85 (+1.74)
Zelda 19.42 -> 18.08 (+1.34)
Y Link 17.45 -> 16.29 (+1.16)
Pikachu 12.94 -> 11.86 (+1.08)
Kirby 25.02 -> 24.15 (+.87)
Doc 9.65 -> 8.86 (+.79)
Falco 2.5 -> 1.86 (+.64)
Marth 4.86 -> 4.43 (+.43)
Luigi 13.25 -> 12.85 (+.40)
Pichu 25.02 -> 24.62 (+.40)
Ness 22.94 -> 22.54 (+.40)
Sheik 3.47 -> 3.14 (+.33)
ICs 8.15 -> 7.93 (+.22)
Peach 5.92 -> 5.79 (+.13)
Samus 10.57 -> 10.64 (-.07)
Fox 1.47 -> 1.57 (-.10)
Falcon 6.77 -> 7.00 (-.23)
Link 16.03 -> 16.38 (-.35)
Bowser 23.67 -> 24.25 (-.58)
:gwmelee:G&W 20.73 -> 21.33 (-.60)
DK 14.81 -> 15.46 (-.65)
Mario 13.00 -> 13.71 (-.71)
Mewtwo 19.85 -> 20.67 (-.83)
Roy 19.76 -> 20.67 (-.91)
:ganonmelee:Ganon 9.96 -> 11.36 (-1.40)
Puff 3.03 -> 4.64 (-1.61)
[/collapse]

 

[leffen]

Posted this in the MBR thread but might aswell post this here aswell:

I want to bring up Yoshi- what do people REALLY have against him, not counting tournament results?

Both me and Armada put him at 14th place (I recently put him there so my list doesn't show it yet)
Our reasoning for putting him above characters like Samus and Ganon was simply made by comparing matchups:

Fox - yoshi does better or as good as samus. Slight disadvantage

Falco - yoshi does better than samus [parry+powershielding completely turns this matchup from bad to great for yoshi - falco has no good multihitting moves/grabs that break yoshis parry reliably)
Slight disadvantage

Puff - Yoshi does better than Samus [***** bair for free, impossible to rest, great camping game etc)
evenish.

Sheik - Yoshi does a little worse than Samus [The matchup isn't nearly as bad as some people think, grabbing a good yoshi is REALLY hard and yoshi can CC/parry all of sheiks spacing game for free]
Fair disadvantage

Marth - Yoshi does better than Samus [great combos/insane edgeguard and gimping game, cannot be edgeguarded himself and marths spacing gets ***** by parrying]
Evenish

Falcon - Yoshi does better than samus [both combos each others hard, but falcon has worse approaches and much worse recovery and a bit harder to get the first hit because of parrying ****** knee/stomps/nairs for free]
Evenish to Yoshis advantage

IC's - Yoshi does worse than samus but still handles okay
Slight disadvantage.


Feel free to debate any matchup I just posted. The lowest I could see Yoshi would be just under Mario.
Does anyone who voted on yoshi actually have any yoshi experience? I feel that 90% just put him there because they haven't seen any good Yoshis and don't wanna think for themselves, really.

How the **** can lots of people put him below roy/gaw/ness wtffffff

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't agree with that. If that were true, yoshi would have match-ups to put him in the top 5. Yes, parrying and super armor are good, but they are gimmicks. I believe you are grossly overestimating yoshi's potential.

 

[Bones0]

@Umbreon

Spoiler

I think Falco is heavily overrated, but I still think he is the strongest character at this point in time. I think there is a lot work to be done in dealing with or preventing lasers that people just haven't gotten around to. It's one of the reasons I would say Peach wins the matchup is because floating so easily negates lasering as a means of controlling space. Other characters can't compete with a float, but they certainly don't seem to deal with them as effectively as possible.

I'll post about Falcon tomorrow.

That's not Devil's Advocate. It's the scientific method. If you never consider other people's opinions, then why bother posting on the boards? More opinions are better than 1. That is just common sense. I agree people who solely play Devil's Advocate by asking obvious questions are annoying, but that's hardly what I'm doing by encouraging others to be open minded about characters on the tier.



I think Falcon's range is one of his best attributes... Uair is a giant semi-circle. Nair is really long. Dair is... I don't think anyone knows WTF dair's hitbox is, but it's certiainly large. Then you also have to take his speed into consideration because speed (both in terms of startup as well as movement) is just as important as range. Ganon's utilt has good range, but you're never going to get it out in time so what's the point? Fox's nair has pretty much the same range as most aerials, but he's so damn fast that he can make his nairs feel like they are coming from far away. Falco's nair isn't any different from Fox's, but it feels a hell of a lot slower when Falco is SHFFLing at you because he has to be so much closer in order to initiate the SHFFL. Falcon is an absolute beast in this category because he has a beast DD, he can fly through the air further with his SH than most characters can with their FH, and his nair/uair are fast enough that their startup doesn't negate his ability to approach from so far away. I think he is one of the best characters in terms of raw punishment when it comes to opponents messing up their spacing. If a Falco is playing a Marth, Marth can play with his spacing a lot more because Falco can't just leap at him or run at him and grab in a split second if his spacing is off. Falcon can do those things, so it completely changes the entire dynamic of spacing because his range is much more threatening.


I'm curious what you mean by him being one-dimensional. He seems just as intricate as any other character. You can say all he does his grab, tech chase, and SHFFL, but you could say the same thing about pretty much any character...

I think Falco dominating neutral is a common misconception. As far as I'm concerned, Falco struggles in neutral more than any of the other top tiers because of his speed. Where he shines (no pun intended) is once he establishes some sort of momentum. Most people feel like he dominates neutral because of lasers, but when you learn to deal with lasers they are mostly non-threatening in neutral. The days where Falco can laser approach into SHFFLs is long gone. His defense is also pretty lackluster because his speed makes it very difficult to back off. If a Fox doesn't like his position vs. Marth, he can just DD back a bit further and work from there. If Falco messes up his spacing, it's too late. If he gets too close without a proper setup, most of the top tiers can pounce quite easily on him before he is able to RSHL. Utilt is often the only saving grace in these instances, but obviously missing that is a free punish.




I agree with most everything you said, but it seemed like you twisted it to make it sound like I was basing my tiers off of results. Obviously results play a role because the results are directly related to how players use their characters. I didn't put Peach at 2nd because Armada places high. I put Peach at 2nd because of the way Armada uses Peach. There is a difference.

How many people have to use Fox for me to raise him? Not sure I understand the question. I have him so low partly because so many people use him and he still doesn't place high at all. I also take into consideration that his popularity makes it so he has to face people who are experienced in the matchup all tournament. A lot of my reasoning is completely detached from results, however. I just see a lot of aspects of Fox's gameplay that seem weak. He gets punished super hard. He doesn't have reliable combos in a lot of matchups. etc.



I agree Falcon vs. Falco is his worst matchup, but I have seen some nice stuff from S2J that gives me hope the matchup will only become more even. They both punish each other so hard that it's really about the neutral game, and I think as Falcon players learn to utilize platforms effectively (SHAI DROP UAIR IS BROKEN) and work on not getting pinned in shield, the matchup could very well end up at even. On the flip side, I think Falco could benefit more from a style where he stays on top of him to prevent Falcon from getting aerial momentum or creating space to abuse his longer ranged moves.

Mango vs. Armada probably convinced me more than anything else that Fox is not that good. If you go back and watch the set, it's pretty incredible how difficult it is for Mango to land first hits. It's just absurdly dangerous trying to approach Peach as Fox. He has great KO options, but getting her to that percent is the hard part because he can't combo her as well as Falco or Falcon. I think Peach also has the best edgeguard on both spacies. Armada rarely lets spacies back on stage because she's one of the few characters that can cover side-B so well (just float and either nair if they come at you, or dair if they go at the ledge).

I think people also need to realize that Mango only goes Fox in a few matchups. I'm sure he's great at all of Fox's matchups, but he refuses to go Fox vs. M2K (for good reason). Outside of that, who has he used Fox against? Armada and Hbox? I can hardly count that "set" vs. Taj because in all honesty he was clearly just the better player, and he overwhelmed him. Maybe if I saw Mango or Javi use Fox vs. the rest of the cast I would be more convinced. For now, it just seems like Fox players do really well against the matchups the player is best at. Mango pwns Jiggs, and Javi pwns Falco. I haven't seen much Fox pwnage outside of that.



A long write-up doesn't seem necessary. I'm not even good at this game, so people are greatly overestimating how much weight my opinion carries compared to top players who have demonstrated good knowledge of how the game works.

The general reasons I put Marth/Falcon over Fox:
- Better/more consistent punishes

- Less vulnerable to low % death combos: Marth is too floaty to get hit by a lot of combos that work on other characters. I mostly see people doing pseudo-combos centered around getting rid of his DJ and just staying underneath him in general as he floats down. Falcon is only slightly better because his recovery is certainly worse, but he's fat enough that he won't fly off stage from the same random **** Fox does.

- Range: Marth is slower with a giant sword, and Falcon is faster with giant legs. Marth can tip moves on shields and stay safe just fine. Falcon can tip late uairs, and knee and stomp just have so much shield stun that they are safe. The only way Fox can be safe on shield is to shine, and people have gotten so good at dealing with shield pressure that it's become more and more risky. I think Leffen posted this in the Fox thread, but he basically said that if you aerial a shield as Fox, you've already messed up. It's just not that good of a position. You're at risk of getting grabbed constantly, and if you do manage to hit them with shine, you usually can't follow up. If they don't fall down from shine, they land with no lag and you can't hit confirm every time, and if they do fall down from shine, you have to just work off their tech/missed tech.

- Safety: Fox doesn't have a move he can use safely when he has bad spacing. He sort of has to just run or shield and rely on his OoS options. Marth can fair, utilt, or even counter and it will do a decent job at combating people who try to rush in on his space. Falcon can use things like pivot bair to protect himself, but overall he really just doesn't need a move like this because his DD is so crazy long and he's so fast, you can almost always just dash away and be well out of range of any move in the game (except perhaps another Falcon SHFFLing a nair).




OMG KITTIES! :3

I probably just don't fully understand the ways in which Falcon is predictable. I think he has by far the best platform game out of the entire cast. People say Fox is amazing on platforms, but he's only really amazing at running away on them. You never see Foxes running around on platforms as an approach outside of the occasional SHFFL nair to the middle, which has become so predictable no one seems to fall for it any more. Falco is too slow/needs lasers too much. Peach/Puff can barely get on plats in the first place. Marth has some room to evolve more platform oriented gameplay (Taj convinced me of this), but he still can't jump onto platforms quite as fast as Falcon, plus his DDWD grab game is better so he gets more out of using the ground. ICs obviously hate platforms. Sheik is another character I think could benefit from plat games, but she doesn't have the same range/horizontal momentum on her fair as Falcon does on his uair/nair.

More to the point of Falcon, I really just see him as such a well-rounded character. I don't think his matchups vs. the spacies or Sheik as as bad as most people make out, and he seems to go at least even with Marth, Jiggs, and Peach. I think in particular he does well vs. Peach because he is one of the few characters that can land actual combos on her, and he can also play safe and negate her usual zoning-style of play with raw speed. Platforms in particular just seem so easy to abuse vs. her, ESPECIALLY if someone would learn to do a goddamn shai drop.

 

[Warhawk]

Even if they are overestimating Yoshi he still doesn't belong below Ness or Roy.

 

[Bones0]

He isn't below Ness or Roy.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Leffen, I don't think you are going to find (m)any people who think Yoshi does better against spacies than Samus.

I'd like to hear your justification though.

 

[JPOBS]

There is literally ONE "top" yoshi player. You guys are trying to move yoshi up? Leffen is just better than the competition and is therefore an outlier.
That's like trying to say peach should be moved up cuz of armada.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Both me and Armada put yoshi like this basically
^top tiers, falco fox etc
Falcon
Doc
Pika
Yoshi
Samus
Luigi
v low tiers, ganon mario etc
I was disgusted by the fact that people put him under roy

Both me and Armada put him at 14th place (I recently put him there so my list doesn't show it yet)
Our reasoning for putting him above characters like Samus and Ganon was simply made by comparing matchups:

Sorry, but I'm a little confused. Your first post makes me think you & Armada rank Yoshi 11th (under Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Puff/Peach/ICs/Falcon/Doc/Pika) but then you say 14th?

Which is it?

 

[Nogzor'z]

Haven't we touched on the whole "gimmick" thing for yoshi in the past?
perhaps that was in a different thread

I think the idea is that he and armada place yoshi in mid-tier range.

 

[Zoler]

Yoshi IS mid tier ! At the very bottom though, I have a really hard time deciding whether he's above samus or pika, I'm pretty sure he's above luigi and ganon though.

 

[leffen]

I don't agree with that. If that were true, yoshi would have match-ups to put him in the top 5. Yes, parrying and super armor are good, but they are gimmicks. I believe you are grossly overestimating yoshi's potential.

You have probably never seen Parrying in action, so please, don't talk about it like its a gimmick.
How is it a gimmick exactly?
Is Falcos laser not having any landing lag a gimmick? Is Fox being able to jump out of his shine a gimmick?

Parrying gives him by far the best shield ingame. Any move that is not multihitting(or shine) gets punished for free with a correct parry. EVERY SINGLE MOVE.

Falco doing dair one frame before he lands? Usmash, grab, djc nair, nair/bair punish.
Fox spacing bair perfectly? Parry into grab into a easy 60%+/death combo.
Sheik spacing fair? Same thing
Peach FC Fair? ***** please, run in and shield.

This also works against grabs, for those who didn't know.
Whats even better, is that parrying is very very low risk. If you miss, you have ZERO lag and you'll just jump out/shield, depending on what you chose to do.


and having super armor is not a gimmick either. It allows you to get out of every "pseudo" combo for free (and often gives you a free punish). It completely ***** some parts of the neutral game (puffs bair for example). Its a mobile, _STRONGER_ CC in the air.

It makes it nigh impossible even attempt any form of edgeguarding when hes under 80%. He can just react to you hitting him, eat it, and start a easy gimp or a powerful combo.



Also, please tell me about WHAT matchup you think is wrong. The fact that "if he had such good matchups he'd be top 5" is not a sound argument. What tells you he can't be top 5? (not saying he is, but you get the point).

Also, Pikachu/Luigi/Doc still have better matchups

 

[JPOBS]

you can parry as consistently and fox can jump out of shine?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Didn't know parrying works against grabs. As in, if they go in for a grab, if you time the parry right, you don't get grabbed? If so, that's extremely good, as I assumed grabbing was the way to "counter" parrying.

I'd also say Samus does much better vs Peach than Yoshi, but that's neither here nor there, just a statement.

 

[leffen]

Didn't know parrying works against grabs. As in, if they go in for a grab, if you time the parry right, you don't get grabbed? If so, that's extremely good, as I assumed grabbing was the way to "counter" parrying.

I'd also say Samus does much better vs Peach than Yoshi, but that's neither here nor there, just a statement.

Exactly, anyone who tries to grab a parry simply whiffs. This is incredible because this makes it nigh impossible to DD grab yoshi spacing since the invincibility starts frame one.
It also makes tech chasing him stupid hard. By waking up with Parry->wavedash/jump etc, you make yourself immune to grabs AND attacks WITHOUT LAGGING.

They do nothing on your wakeup? you jump away/do whatever. They try to attack/grab? They miss, and you can easily react with a great punish


btw, my complete tier list:

Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco

ICs
Puff
Peach

Falcon
Doc
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
Samus

Mario
Ganon
YL
DK
Mewtwo
Link
Zelda

Ness
Roy
GAW

Kirby
Pichu
Bowser

 

[Warhawk]

Can you tell us why you have ICs so high?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Ganon/Mario in the same tier as Mewtwo/Zelda? woah

Pretty incredible how we can be 10.5 years after the games release and everyones tier lists still look so different lol

 

[Construct]

Marth second? ICs fifth? I like the list, but I'd love to hear you reasoning on those two.

 

[JPOBS]

lol people raised hell at the notion peach > marth a whle back.

now we have a list with ics > peach and puff
and falco < marth and sheik

where's my popcorn?

 

[Warhawk]

Wow how did I miss Marth at second lol

 

[leffen]

Don't focus on what tier, that doesn't matter at all in the final stuff (which is why I didn't care about it).

ICs being high is based on a couple of things:

-Wobbling should ALWAYS be allowed, anything else is ******** to base a list off.

Puff losing to marth/fox/falco
Peach losing to Marth/sheik/puff/fox
ICs losing to fox/falco/peach

ICs simply lose to people that are lower in the tierlist than Peach/Puff
Puff beats Sheik, Peach in top tier.
Peach beats Falco, ICs
ICs goes even with Marth, beats Puff/Sheik


Marth at 2nd: How is that suprising? I feel that Marth beats both Fox and Falco by a bit, especially since FD is guaranteed at any important set.

He loses to Sheik. Thats it. Goes even with ICs, beats peach and puff

Does anyone have any REAL discussion? Other than "THAT IS USUAL FROM WHAT IM USED TO SEEING"

 

[Kimimaru]

As a Yoshi main, I can say that pretty much all of what Leffen said is true, but I want to talk a bit about this:

It makes it nigh impossible even attempt any form of edgeguarding when hes under 80%. He can just react to you hitting him, eat it, and start a easy gimp or a powerful combo.

One of my favorite things about Yoshi is at low percents, provided he has his double jump, his recovery is basically guaranteed. The super armor lasts for the entirety of the double jump animation, so it's easy for the opponent to mispredict it and attack you during the super armor. I can't tell you how many times I've had opponents at high percents attack me while I was recovering, only for them to get hit by a N-air and lose a stock.

Also, I think everyone's underestimating Yoshi rather than Leffen overestimating him. He can also grab the ledge in more ways than probably any other character, and his double jump and egg throw make his edgeguarding ability very solid.

Pretty incredible how we can be 10.5 years after the games release and everyones tier lists still look so different lol

I'm actually not surprised about this. How have we even went on for so many years with so few people knowing detailed information about the low tiers? That's probably why the tier list hasn't been changing much recently.

Sidenote: I think Marth should be under Falco in that list at best. He's very good but shouldn't be that high.

 

[Mew2King]

leffen why are u so mean to ppl =/

 

[leffen]

A important thing to realize is that the low tier lists are 99% based of the top players picking a random low tier against a not so serious opponent in a friendly and they watch how good it works.

Roy has always been higher than he deserves because you can spam Dtilt/Dash dance grab and just play him like a worse marth. Zelda is high because she's simple and gets played when you use sheik
GaW is high because hes simple etc. Ness/Yoshi both require immense amount of work. You can't just play Yoshi and expect to do well in a random friendly.

This is one of the main reason to why I don't play Yoshi anymore. You need to MAIN him to use him to his full potential. My attempts at playing him as a secondary would do injustice to the character

 

[Griffard]

A important thing to realize is that the low tier lists are 99% based of the top players picking a random low tier against a not so serious opponent in a friendly and they watch how good it works.

Roy has always been higher than he deserves because you can spam Dtilt/Dash dance grab and just play him like a worse marth. Zelda is high because she's simple and gets played when you use sheik
GaW is high because hes simple etc. Ness/Yoshi both require immense amount of work. You can't just play Yoshi and expect to do well in a random friendly.

This is one of the main reason to why I don't play Yoshi anymore. You need to MAIN him to use him to his full potential. My attempts at playing him as a secondary would do injustice to the character

Totally agree on your opinions about Yoshi and Ness being characters requiring a lot of effort. Interesting to see your input on the list in general.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh so you're the only one who knows anything about low tiers in NTSC leffen? Apparently I have no idea how good Zelda is even though I've played with Cosmo quite a bit. Oh and no idea how roy works even though I've played against m2k, exarch and ripple's roys.

Stop being so condescending about your opinions. If you want to convince people, try not using exaggerations and ad hominems.

 

[Ripple]

I like how he's even called me out on not knowing roy's matchups

 

[Grim Tuesday]

People exaggerate PAL/NTSC differences.

If leffen knows how low tiers work in PAL; he knows how they work in NTSC.

 

[leffen]

Oh so you're the only one who knows anything about low tiers in NTSC leffen? Apparently I have no idea how good Zelda is even though I've played with Cosmo quite a bit. Oh and no idea how roy works even though I've played against m2k, exarch and ripple's roys.

Stop being so condescending about your opinions. If you want to convince people, try not using exaggerations and ad hominems.

WTF? I didn't even mention you in the low tier post lol

Why are you the post so personal, is it because you realized how clueless you were about Yoshi after I explained further? I would still like you to answer by the way, because I'm pretty sure you're just gonna flee the subject and keep Yoshi at the same spot anyway.

The fact that you have played Cosmo or some bad roy doesn't say **** about Yoshi or any other low tier than zelda/roy.


My point was that simple character get a huge boost by people who play him as a secondary/pick him at random, while others don't get that boost but would still outperform them at top level.

Since all the low tiers are almost always played as a secondary/with limited experience, the characters that are easier to understand/play randomly get a higher overall placement in the tier list

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I didn't comment about your yoshi post for 2 reasons

1) I am busy. I don't have time to reply to every post in here and the MBR on top of the work i'm doing behind the scenes and the other project I am working on.

2) I didn't want to make things personal. When you attack someone instead of their ideas, you make it personal. Technically speaking, on this project I am your boss. Now I could either say something that says to everyone that you are walking all over me or I could say something that made you look bad, but either way I lose. Because of this I had nothing to gain in replying to your argument. If you would like to have a civil discussion about Yoshi instead of the type of one you are creating, please do so. I will not fall into your traps.

 

[KirbyKaze]

As a result of much contemplation between the varying trains of thought present in this thread (our primary influences were leffen and Bones0) we have come to conclusion on a new tier list. This was a collaborative project between Silent Wolf, myself, Unknown522, Idea, and the great Raynex.

Falco
Fox
Peach
Falco
Ice Climbers
Marth / Sheik & Zelda / Falcon
Jigglypuff

Pikachu
Ganondorf
Young Link
Samus
Mario & Doc (they're basically the same character)
Popo (losing Nana isn't that bad, just look at Chu)
Mewtwo
Luigi
Donkey Kong (he was good in 2007)

Other characters

Kirby / Bowser for worst



This list was a result of character theory and tournament results. Special thanks to Inui for his influence on this list.

edit: Discuss, my sheep.

 

[john!]

(our primary influences were leffen and Bones0)

this made it too obvious

 

[Kimimaru]

For the most part, I think it's pretty good, however:

- I think Young Link is too high on the list. I think everyone's moving him up now because Armada uses him against Hungrybox, but I don't see how he suddenly gets more potential because of that

- Why is Zelda tied with Sheik, and why isn't Yoshi around Ganondorf, let alone written on the list?

- I think Pichu is worse than Bowser and Kirby because he gains percent from using most of his moves, including his recovery

 

[ShroudedOne]

Is it ok to give up now, guys? Can we just, like, lay down and die?

 

[john!]

Is it ok to give up now, guys? Can we just, like, lay down and die?

oh no not i

i will survive

 

[Construct]

For the most part, I think it's pretty good, however:

- I think Young Link is too high on the list. I think everyone's moving him up now because Armada uses him against Hungrybox, but I don't see how he suddenly gets more potential because of that

- Why is Zelda tied with Sheik, and why isn't Yoshi around Ganondorf, let alone written on the list?

- I think Pichu is worse than Bowser and Kirby because he gains percent from using most of his moves, including his recovery

hueheuheuehue

 

[Bones0]

Intentional absence of Yoshi was the funniest part.