Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[JPOBS]

I like the fact that mewtwo is randomly really high.

 

[unknown522]

We were drunk.

I'm surprised that leffen and I have a similar opinion on how far the ICs move up with wobbling allowed

 

[knightpraetor]

so i had some random thoughts.

1. bones is wrong about thinking that falcon gains any benefits over falco in terms of approaching marth....i'm not sure where he gets this idea falcon can just jump approach at marth any better than falco...that's a joke...falco far and away has better options for approaching marth. I don't really remember whether he said marth beats falcon or vice versa..but regardless..the idea that falcon can approach marth
ultimately lasers are a much easier way to keep marth grounded than dashdance camping grab..and neither falcon nor falco can move in under a sh retreating nair properly that can be timed according to the dash quite easily and ac to make it relatively lagless. the difference is falco requires marth to work to take back the 1.5 cm of space that marth gave up on his slight retreating nair...while against falcon it's too free...pressure on my landing zone is next to nothing..i can jump forward cause to avoid the nair falcon had to dash back and no falcons dash back pivot instant nair in the current metagame..this forces falcon to respace around my new jump..thereby giving me back the space i just gave up...vs falco...meh i don't feel like going into that matchup but it's complicated.

also, leffen asked why do people think yoshi is better than samus..but honestly reading through that matchup thread the only thing that I thought was...damn i don't know a thing about yoshi's matchups..and only know 2-3 of samus's matchups vaguely and haven't played any of them...and when he said parry can dodge grabs i was in shock...

so you can't expect most players to accurately judge the low tiers..in fact most people who at least realize how little they know just keep quiet in such situations...

also, roy is pretty good compared to the other low tiers..but i don't think he's better than yoshi by a long shot..i've thought yoshi was pretty decent ever since fumi..and you guys have taken it to another level lately.

also how are we supposed to judge parrying when hardly anyone we play does it consistently

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The funniest part of the last page was leffen begging for "real" discussion and no one bothering to answer

I guess those are the consequences of posting like an ******* for two years straight lol

falcon had to dash back and no falcons dash back pivot instant nair in the current metagame..

?

yes they do.

But I agree with your overall point. Marth's side-B, crouch cancel, and utilt are really dominant in that matchup at stuffing approaches. Falco doesn't have an easy time approaching Marth either (no one does) but he definitely has better tools if he has to.

 

[Deleted member]

TCB when did your posts get so much better? Every post you've had in this thread for the past month has been really good.

Does anyone besides me think that Doc is fairly underrated?

 

[JPOBS]

Does anyone besides me think that Doc is fairly underrated?

Underrated as in he should be seriously considered to be up in marth/peach/falcon tier, or underated as in you think he's very viable in tournament from a practical standpoint ? (and not all derp matchups theorybros nonsense)

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Hey guys did I ever tell you that UmbreonMow is a dapper gentleman with the finest sensibilities, beautiful curly hair, and a mind cultivated in all the rigors befitting a man of his class and pedigree?

Cause if I hadn't before, I hope this completely random and unprovoked opinion shall educate you for the future.

..
..

<3 <3 <3

 

[Kimimaru]

also, leffen asked why do people think yoshi is better than samus..but honestly reading through that matchup thread the only thing that I thought was...damn i don't know a thing about yoshi's matchups..and only know 2-3 of samus's matchups vaguely and haven't played any of them...and when he said parry can dodge grabs i was in shock...

so you can't expect most players to accurately judge the low tiers..in fact most people who at least realize how little they know just keep quiet in such situations...

also, roy is pretty good compared to the other low tiers..but i don't think he's better than yoshi by a long shot..i've thought yoshi was pretty decent ever since fumi..and you guys have taken it to another level lately.

also how are we supposed to judge parrying when hardly anyone we play does it consistently

I agree that parrying is hard to judge at this time, but even accidental parries help. I tend to think of Yoshi having two kinds of parrying: the "normal" parry, where you utilize the invincibility frames at the start of Yoshi's shielding animation (which is why he can't be grabbed), and the DJC counterattack where you utilize his heavy armor. The former can only be done on the ground, and the latter can only be done in the air.

I'll give some details on a couple of the matchups I have the most experience with:

Marth: I actually think this one is even since, unless tippered, Marth's attacks generally cannot break through Yoshi's super armor. If Marth gets D-tilted at the edge he's as good as dead because Yoshi can DJ grab the edge if Marth tries to sweetspot it, and if Marth doesn't sweetspot it Yoshi can CC the sour spot of his Up + B and D-tilt again, resulting in Marth's death. Then aside from those options there are eggs. Marth can combo Yoshi well and Yoshi can do the same, but Yoshi will have a hard time approaching Marth unless he can DJ through his attacks. Yoshi's D-smash absolutely devastates Marth and can make him unable to recover at around 60%, and F-smash and dash attack have some invincibility on the head and are good at beating Marth's approaches. However, Marth's grab range is a big pain for Yoshi, so Yoshi might need to stay in the air a lot. This all discounts parrying, which I think might put the matchup in Yoshi's favor.

Falcon: This one is a bit in Falcon's favor because his knee's knockback is insane, but aside from that I think it's even. Both characters can combo each other well. Falcon's D-air is great against starting a combo on Yoshi (and pretty much everyone) and can lead to multiple knees because Yoshi's so heavy. Yoshi's B-air is amazing against Falcon, does good damage, and can be used to combo into U-air or N-air, especially at higher percents. Falcon's grab, like Marth's, is great against Yoshi and leads into combos and lots of other things. However, since Yoshi's CC is so good he can use it or his DJ to beat out falcon's approaches. D-air (if timed right and L-canceled) can be used with U-air and U-smash to kill Falcon at high percents as well as on its own to meteor Falcon multiple times while attempting to recover.

 

[Froggy]

Does anyone besides me think that Doc is fairly underrated?

I would say that Doc is better than ICs without wobbling.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Does anyone besides me think that Doc is fairly underrated?

I think doc is overrated, personally.

 

[Lovage]

i think doc's great

ganon's overrated

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Ganon's definitely overrated.

As for Doc. I don't like his mustache, so I'll never be able to treat him seriously.

 

[The Star King]

Doctor Mario has a prestigious career that he worked hard for how dare you ridicule him just because of his facial hair

 

[Geenareeno]

If every Fox played like Hariettheguy, Ganon would be just above Luigi.

 

[Rainbow]

I want to put Pikachu above Ganon, but I feel like Ganon needs much less consistency to play well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We were drunk.

I'm surprised that leffen and I have a similar opinion on how far the ICs move up with wobbling allowed

I don't think leffen was saying that "Wobbling = move up 5 spots" or however many it was. He just thinks highly of ICs and assumes Wobbling is legal.

Like I've said before, it really doesn't make much of a difference. Marth is the only top tier character who ICs have trouble chain-grabbing, that MU probably goes from -1 to +0 with Wobbling allowed.

Every other MU its really easy to mix-up a few CGs, get them near the ledge and hand-off.

 

[Deleted member]

Underrated as in he should be seriously considered to be up in marth/peach/falcon tier, or underated as in you think he's very viable in tournament from a practical standpoint ? (and not all derp matchups theorybros nonsense)

the latter. he's not played at high level much, but i think the character is definitely good enough.

personally, i think he's better than falcon, but i don't put falcon in the same tier with peach and marth either.

 

[Wake]

Finally, some people are starting to realize how bad Ganon actually is.

 

[leffen]

Doc is awesome. His CGs, downthrow fair (hi shroomed) and up b oos (as fast as perfect fox shine oos)




I hope that the people who don't know anything about Yoshi (read: almost everything tbh) will just leave him out of the tier list. The people with actual Yoshi experience can put him wherever (reasoning would be great in this case) but I don't like to see so many people who don't even understand Yoshi.


random stuff, that people may not know about yoshi:

- All of his attacks do MASSIVE damage.
His ftilt does 13% (and sets up for great combos ofc... it also has great priority, it beats fox/falcos nair for example), dtilt/utilt 10% (both are semi fixed and immune to CC).

Nair does 14%, Bair does 20% (great priority, beats sheiks fair, fox/falcos nair, jiggs fair etc and combos into everything, even with DI) and Fair 17% (immune to CC, sets up for everything, beats fox/falcos nair etc).

Most notably, his eggs do 12%. With proper edge canceling you often hit 2-3 -> Ledgejump fair/bair or ledgejump double jump land->dsmash/ftilt/grab.
His ledge game is easily the best in the game, since you cannot just stand in the middle of the stage like against Sheik/Puff. On smaller stages like YS/FoD, they literally cannot hide from the eggs.

Even shields are bad against his eggs. They do lots of shield damage/stun, and when aimed properly you can shield poke shield better than any other move in the game.

As for the rest of his ledge game, he is equipped with THREE different 100% invincible ledge stalls.
He can first off do a simple DJ->down B (this has been known before) but I've found out that you can actually do DJ->ledgedash slipoff->grab the ledge ->repeat. Even better, you can do DJ->Double jump landing->runoff->Djsweetspot (yoshi only AT).

His DJ->Egg->Regrab has one frame of vulnerability. Luckily, it sweetspots extremely low and its fast enough that you cannot react to the animation (you have to guess if you wanna hit him in that one frame). The yoshi can also just not do the Up B when he sees the opponent attack, eat it with his super armor and punish accordingly. This makes tactics like runoff shine with fox or DJ dair with falco almost useless.

What makes these techniques better than any other ledge stalling tactic in the game is that you cannot punish it. At all. If you somehow get close to Yoshi through his egg spam (which some characters, like Jigglypuff, are simply unable to do) Yoshi can just start stalling.

Steal the ledge for a free punish like against Sheik? No sir. Since yoshi has no lag after his waveland/dj landing, he can simply run away and take middle stage/the other ledge.


-Yoshi is the best platform camper a fair bit. His waveland and DJC movement doesn't really need further explaining, right? Parry->Shield drop, normal shield drop->(djc) punish, or just lightshield->pushed off->djc punish. Slipoffing is also extremely good and easy with Yoshi because of how his DJ works. Together with his Fair (that has a hitbox through the platform, just like CF's stomp) you can make lagless walls against anyone who tries to approach.


-Yoshis nair has awful priority from the front, because his foot has no hitbox while still being a hurtbox. Luckily, you can simply turn around and now you're equipped with a nair with as good as (or more priority )than fox/falcos.

-His Uair hitbox

Beats everything. Beats many main approaches horizontally too (just like falcos Dair does, except this one has more priority).





I honestly don't know why I'm writing this. Everyone is just gonna ignore this, and not evaluate where they place Yoshi at all, but whatever. Already wrote it up, might as well post it.

 

[Battlecow]

So everyone should simply let the people who know yoshi (read: you) decide where yoshi goes, even though you've never actually played yoshi at a non-local-level tourney (inb4 norwegian "nationals")?

If you want people to re-evaluate the character, you should show that he's good instead of beating a couple randoms and acting like it's case closed. Until then, everyone's going to evaluate yoshi based on their own experiences with him and what they've seen him accomplish.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Armada should go Fox at the next national because Bones logic.

Mango should stop getting hit by moves because Mango logic.

 

[Battlecow]

That's not mango logic, that's Isai logic.

 

[knightpraetor]

kind of surprised yoshi's ledgestall is so good..never seen anyone use that either....

 

[Max?]

TCB when did your posts get so much better? Every post you've had in this thread for the past month has been really good.

Does anyone besides me think that Doc is fairly underrated?

I would consider him in the same tier as Falcon/Icies, tho I would imagine they are both better than him.

 

[Deleted member]

I would consider him in the same tier as Falcon/Icies, tho I would imagine they are both better than him.

i agree on them being close, but for now i have it as ICs > doc > falcon as 7 8 9.

 

[Zoler]

Doc over falcon?

Docs good but... nope!

 

[Bones0]

so i had some random thoughts.

1. bones is wrong about thinking that falcon gains any benefits over falco in terms of approaching marth....i'm not sure where he gets this idea falcon can just jump approach at marth any better than falco...that's a joke...falco far and away has better options for approaching marth. I don't really remember whether he said marth beats falcon or vice versa..but regardless..the idea that falcon can approach marth
ultimately lasers are a much easier way to keep marth grounded than dashdance camping grab..and neither falcon nor falco can move in under a sh retreating nair properly that can be timed according to the dash quite easily and ac to make it relatively lagless. the difference is falco requires marth to work to take back the 1.5 cm of space that marth gave up on his slight retreating nair...while against falcon it's too free...pressure on my landing zone is next to nothing..i can jump forward cause to avoid the nair falcon had to dash back and no falcons dash back pivot instant nair in the current metagame..this forces falcon to respace around my new jump..thereby giving me back the space i just gave up...vs falco...meh i don't feel like going into that matchup but it's complicated.

also, leffen asked why do people think yoshi is better than samus..but honestly reading through that matchup thread the only thing that I thought was...damn i don't know a thing about yoshi's matchups..and only know 2-3 of samus's matchups vaguely and haven't played any of them...and when he said parry can dodge grabs i was in shock...

so you can't expect most players to accurately judge the low tiers..in fact most people who at least realize how little they know just keep quiet in such situations...

also, roy is pretty good compared to the other low tiers..but i don't think he's better than yoshi by a long shot..i've thought yoshi was pretty decent ever since fumi..and you guys have taken it to another level lately.

also how are we supposed to judge parrying when hardly anyone we play does it consistently

I never said Falcon could just SHFFL at Marth and be fine. If I am recalling the same post you are talking about, I said if Marth messes up his spacing, Falcon is much more capable of punishing that flub than Falco. As Falco, when you realize Marth (or anyone for that matter) has messed up their spacing, all you can do is increase pressure on their space (which you basically described by saying how you can use lasers to prevent Marth from moving forward easily). But what he can't do vs. players that are competent at dealing with lasers is punish bad spacing by lasering their shield, and then rush in after. By contrast, when Falcon, Fox, Marth, or Sheik realize their opponent has put themselves in a bad position, they can actually get a concrete punish instead of having to get them in a bad position and THEN punish their escape/counterattack option. A simple example would be Marth throwing out a utilt. When I see a Marth utilt, I can't just rush in as Falco because they could throw out another utilt, DD grab, counter, etc. I have enough experience with this situation to know that trying to punish utilts on reaction is extremely risky. Instead, I usually work off of it by lasering or DDing to bait a bad preemptive action. The utilt is obviously a bad decision on the Marth's part, but he hasn't been directly punished for it. He just has to get himself out of the bad position. Vs. any of the fast top tiers, when Marth throws out a utilt, they are all fast enough to run in and grab or attack. They don't have to go through that extra process of putting them in a bad position. They just take the free damage immediately.

The other dimension to approaching Marth is from platforms. Falcon has by far the best options from platforms for approaching than any other top tier. He can run off or shai drop uairs spaced so that he can't get grabbed, but Falco can't do **** from that position. You never see PP running around on side plats vs. M2K because one uair or utilt and he's going to die, and there's no possible way for him to approach. Run off/shai drop dair (or any move for that matter) doesn't have enough range, and even if you space it properly, they will probably just shield at which point it becomes like the above scenario. Obviously Marth getting shield pressured is a bad situation, but it's still one more process Falco has to work through before he actually gets any damage done, and there's a large possibility that he will get counterattacked somehow even after having a successful approach.

 

[knightpraetor]

what you just wrote may be true..but you make it sound like marth should at any time be throwing out uptilts in those situations..you're basically just saying that super laggy moves when used in dumb positions are easier to punish with falcon than with falco..but falcon has no lasers and thus is forced to space farther out and is therefore no more likely to have guaranteed punishes on marth in the above situation than falco...if falcon is running around that close to marth he's going to get punished by a million other things..so effectively falcons give marth the space he wants and tends to take pressure and just try to mix up reacting to rolls/movement and just grabbint the space the marth lands even though it wasn't a technical guaranteed grab.

whenever falcon manages to get a guaranteed grab on marth during marth's lag that implies that he took the risk of getting inside marth's range and falling prey to a whole number of things...falco can also choose to enter marth's range and do the same thing..

if i were to argue that the situation favors falcon over falco it would be because falcon takes less risk when entering inside marth's space than falco.

however, simply lasering to take space basically completely demolishes the risk to falco..so i don't think that is truly the case.

playing from shield as marth vs falco gets you ***** by people who understand the simple fact that marth cannot wavedash short distances out of shield without taking the same amount of lag that he would on a long wavedash...so this fundamentally means marth cannot safely adjust his position to your motion...abusing that and then realizing that the marth's only other decent option is to jump forward for momentum adjustments means that you can revolve your entire game around first pinning the marth until he jumps and then punishing his lag..if you're getting punished by wavedash out of shield..then the simple solution is to stop being stupid and get out of range and react.

of course powershielding destroys that..which is the only reason that i think that falco has a worse matchup against marth than falcon..but even though i'm pretty consistent with powershielding with warmup (something like 80%...i really want to work on just using dashback powershields so that i have 100% powershield rate)...i still don't think most marths are using powershielding enough to actually make marths a threat to falco in tourney..

and your 2nd paragraph is the main reason i hate tier list arguments..the only relevance falcon's platform game has vs marth is if he can use shai dropped aerials...which i also have never seen used on me effectively....but if falcon's master that i can see the matchup changing....but i don't honestly think the matchup percentages will change..i just think marth's will play more safe and uptilt the falcons when they have that option...and in general probably stop up throwing falcons onto platforms (which i also don't do(and pp also said he doesn't do it)...still not sure why i don't do it..i guess falcon's aerials are just good enough that techchasing low is more guaranteed an dmore likely to send falcon off at a low angle to get gimped.

 

[Bones0]

what you just wrote may be true..but you make it sound like marth should at any time be throwing out uptilts in those situations..you're basically just saying that super laggy moves when used in dumb positions are easier to punish with falcon than with falco..

I was just using that as an example. Instead use an example where the Marth is simply DDing. Falco is still much more likely to be pivot grabbed than Falcon because Falcon is way faster, has a nair with much more range, and has SHFFL that goes much further.

but falcon has no lasers and thus is forced to space farther out and is therefore no more likely to have guaranteed punishes on marth in the above situation than falco...if falcon is running around that close to marth he's going to get punished by a million other things..so effectively falcons give marth the space he wants and tends to take pressure and just try to mix up reacting to rolls/movement and just grabbint the space the marth lands even though it wasn't a technical guaranteed grab.

I disagree completely. Falco being slow makes it so he has to be outside of Marth's tipper range or directly on top of him. In between is just awful. Falcon's DD and speed let him play with space MUCH more than Falco. He can get just outside fair range because he can avoid some of the slower options like fsmash, run up grab, or dash attack that Falco can't. You'll never see a Falco lasering within close range of Marth because there are so many simple ways it can get him pwned. SHLs just have too much startup to be used that close, which is why the closest you'll ever see Falco laser is outside of tipper range (excluding lasers right on top of them, which is only done when you've already won the spacing battle and have made them shield in fear of an aerial).

whenever falcon manages to get a guaranteed grab on marth during marth's lag that implies that he took the risk of getting inside marth's range and falling prey to a whole number of things...falco can also choose to enter marth's range and do the same thing..

if i were to argue that the situation favors falcon over falco it would be because falcon takes less risk when entering inside marth's space than falco.

I basically agree with this. That safety is why I would say Falcon deals with neutral better.

however, simply lasering to take space basically completely demolishes the risk to falco..so i don't think that is truly the case.

Idk how lasering can take space. You can't just SHL multiple times towards someone as they sit in shield. They could just aerial OoS, WD OoS towards you with an ground attack, WD OoS and go back into shield where Falco's spacing is no longer safe for another laser, etc.

playing from shield as marth vs falco gets you ***** by people who understand the simple fact that marth cannot wavedash short distances out of shield without taking the same amount of lag that he would on a long wavedash...so this fundamentally means marth cannot safely adjust his position to your motion...abusing that and then realizing that the marth's only other decent option is to jump forward for momentum adjustments means that you can revolve your entire game around first pinning the marth until he jumps and then punishing his lag..if you're getting punished by wavedash out of shield..then the simple solution is to stop being stupid and get out of range and react.

Not sure what you're saying here. I agree Marth shouldn't just shield vs. Falco, but I think he has plenty more options aside from jumping forward. As for the last part, are you saying Falco should get out of range if he's getting hit by WD OoS? I agree, but that just goes back to the point that Falcon doesn't get hit by a lot of Marth's super quick approaches even while spacing closer than Falco.

of course powershielding destroys that..which is the only reason that i think that falco has a worse matchup against marth than falcon..but even though i'm pretty consistent with powershielding with warmup (something like 80%...i really want to work on just using dashback powershields so that i have 100% powershield rate)...i still don't think most marths are using powershielding enough to actually make marths a threat to falco in tourney..

I agree. I use the dashback PS and it makes it super easy, not to mention it looks freakin' badass. lol There are a lot of characters that benefit from it (though none nearly as much as Marth from what I can tell).

and your 2nd paragraph is the main reason i hate tier list arguments..the only relevance falcon's platform game has vs marth is if he can use shai dropped aerials...which i also have never seen used on me effectively....but if falcon's master that i can see the matchup changing....but i don't honestly think the matchup percentages will change..i just think marth's will play more safe and uptilt the falcons when they have that option...and in general probably stop up throwing falcons onto platforms (which i also don't do(and pp also said he doesn't do it)...still not sure why i don't do it..i guess falcon's aerials are just good enough that techchasing low is more guaranteed an dmore likely to send falcon off at a low angle to get gimped.

I think shai drops would help, but even just running off with uairs is an amazing tool that seems extremely underused. I don't think it should be used as a general approach though. You can't just jump onto a platform and decide "okay, now I will approach by running off!" It just makes it super safe because it's faster than SHFFLing if you initiate the shai drop or runoff while they are out of range, and Falcon's uair outranges a huge majority of the moves top tiers use. Vs. Falco especially. Everyone pretty much agrees that hitting Falco right on the beak is good because he has no solid way of protecting himself there. Turnaround utilt is okay, but you can only use that when standing still. When dashing, you're simply too slow to run away, let alone to run back in for a punish. So it's pretty good when Falcon can hop on a platform where Falco doesn't have many ways of bothering him, and then he can approach when he wants with a simple run off/shai drop uair. It's by no means a super approach that can't be countered, but it's so underused it makes me sick. My Falcon is pretty bad, but it didn't take me long at all to get to the point where I can do it on reaction. I will be on a platform ready to shai drop, and if I see Marth in position to utilt me, I just hold shield instead of dropping through. He utilts my shield, I shield drop uair, and he gets combo'd across the stage and dies. If at any point during the sequence I feel unsafe or he doesn't get close enough to me, I can do the uair and dash back safely, or I can shai drop through and approach from the ground. Again, not trying to theory bros an explanation of how Falcon can approach perfectly every time, but I just think he has a much stronger neutral spacing/approach game than most people give him credit for.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Excuse me Bones but why are shai drops such a big ****ing deal?

Seriously, I don't understand.

 

[Bones0]

Shai drops in general are great.

Shai drops with Falcon's uair are a big ****ing deal because they are insane.

Not sure what in particular is confusing about why they are good. You can drop through a platform in a single frame at any point during your dash and immediately use an attack.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You take the effort to say Shai drops, rather than just standard dropping through a platform or running off; gameplay wise there really isn't much difference (the extra speed isn't necessary).

I was confused because it seems like you were seeing something more in the technique that I don't see.

 

[Bones0]

Shai drops vs. Runoffs/Regular Drop-Throughs:
- Faster
- Can be done at any part of the platform instead of just at the edge (or instead of just where you are standing for regular drop-throughs)
- Can be reversed in direction simply by dashing the other way first
- You can hold shield before dropping through to confirm it's safe/confirm you will hit/mixup timing/bait attack to shield drop off of

 

[knightpraetor]

"Not sure what you're saying here. I agree Marth shouldn't just shield vs. Falco, but I think he has plenty more options aside from jumping forward. As for the last part, are you saying Falco should get out of range if he's getting hit by WD OoS? I agree, but that just goes back to the point that Falcon doesn't get hit by a lot of Marth's super quick approaches even while spacing closer than Falco."

no...i'm saying that WD OOS is garbage and easy to punish unless it's done after an aerial shine repetition..if falco's weren't dumb ***** they would just pressure me after their laser but they all think...hmmm i hit marth with a laser..i have to go throw out a dair and a shine so that his shield will go down...

somehow they forget that the shield goes down on its own anyways...obviously pp is excluded from this..he doesn't waste lasers by always dairing in like a moron..but dumb followups probably follow about 95% of the lasers that hit me...i'm not going to say that it gets the falco nothing..but if they were smarter they could get a lot more....and no i'm not saying falco should get out of range..he should just stay at a range where he can punish marth's out of shield on reaction...and be ready for short hops since marths tend to do that a lot when falco prevents the wd out of shield properly.


also shai drops and run off upairs have almost no relevance on the matchup for a reason...marth can throw out safe aerials under the platforms quite easily..if you run off upair..it will work..if i'm dashdancing like an idiot...good marths don't dashdance for no reason when falcons are on platforms..they move forward and then cover themselves with aerials...so honestly shai drops have no relevance as an approach..merely as defense to try to get down with a little more coverage..it might help protect against grabs..but at most percents i would just take a nair that sends falcon off stage anyway

ps -i'm done with this conversation..you probably have a comment..because i too can think of an option marth has...and i know how falco should deal with that as well but i feel like i've given enough advice that makes my life harder for one day

also shai drops are amazing in general..i just don't think they will amount to much considering how marths typically play the matchup right now when falcon is on a platform.

 

[Bones0]

Well hopefully we get to play somewhere down the road and we can discuss it in person. I think I could change your mind about shai drops vs. Marth if I actually used it vs. you. If you've never had it used against you, it's hard to convey how I envision it would play out at top level.

 

[Deleted member]

Doc over falcon?

Docs good but... nope!

in tournament results, definitely not, but i think doc is the better character narrowly. i think they have about the same recovery (awful), same grab value (excellent), both make excellent use of crouching, stage control, etc.

i see it as with falcon, you have awful matches against fox falco sheik jigglypuff, which is really not where you want to be for a major tournament. if the meta were heavier on samus, marth, peach, etc i would definitely say that falcon is better. with doc, you forfeit some range and speed for better top tier matches up and debatably worse marth/peach matches, but i think that's an acceptable loss. doc is also substantially less susceptible to "the gayness", death combos, or being punished when he hits with a poorly positioned move. since better players now are more focused on heavier punishes, being resilient to those punishes is an excellent quality, and doc's shield/weight dynamics make him very resistant to fox/falco/marth throw combos, armada signature "wtf was that" combos, 50% in tech chasing, etc.

i also think that doc players have a lot to work with in terms of shield placement under platforms, as grabbing doc is often the correct move but getting a good position on him for the grab can be hard if the doc player is selective with his positioning. i think the same for ice climbers actually, but that's another discussion. in short, i think docs should be shielding a lot and in better places and it would make the character much better.

it's a lot of subtle stuff really but it adds up. basically it comes down to doc being better in the meta for multiple reasons, and picking falcon over doc atm just seems like forfeiting percentage points all over.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Umbreon are you saying that Doc has good match-ups with fox falco sheik or puff? I thought doc has bad match-ups with everyone above him, including falcon. Maybe Puff or Peach is slightly not bad for him, but I don't think he has any winning match-ups.

 

[Ripple]

Doc vs. Falcon is even. given by how S2J and shroomed go back and forth. and I think he goes even with puff but we've only seen higher level puffs play against lower docs

 

[john!]

Doc vs. Falcon is even. given by how S2J and shroomed go back and forth. and I think he goes even with puff but we've only seen higher level puffs play against lower docs

you can't really say a matchup is even just because two players who main those characters go back and forth

 

[Blistering Speed]

and I think he goes even with puff but we've only seen higher level puffs play against lower docs

Here.