Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Ripple]

well then the answer is mostly the same.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Interesting - Which is the most dominant factor in changing the MU ratios? Living longer, KO'ing earlier or other characters being worse (keep in mind that apart from Sheik, they are about equally worse against everyone, not just Yoshi)

 

[john!]

I think mario is trash. I beat tom R's mario (known for his mario being amazing)in the midwest with my DK.

i would be very surprised to see a video of this. or any other proof

 

[unknown522]

Oh, Tom R's mario...

 

[Ripple]

like I said, known in the midwest, Probably just the states around IL.

and I don't have proof. its whatever though

 

[unknown522]

Oh I know who he is

 

[Ripple]

then what was the point in posting? unless it was a subtle jab that he isn't very good with mario. which I would disagree, but I just think mario is ***.

also, Grim to get back to you. I'd say that Sheik is probably the deciding factor. I know everyone else gets better but I just feel as though yoshi can handle the other top tiers better than those around him. The extra kill power is really a close second though

 

[darkatma]

edit2: Doubtful you would beat Tom's Mario on a good day, or in tourney. (edit for abrasive content)

edit: I'm even more skeptical because Matt has a sick DK, so I'm almost certain Tom knows the matchup

 

[unknown522]

Wow. Gettin exposed

 

[darkatma]

when are we gonna play unknown? I really wanna play you, since you're hella good

 

[The Good Doctor]

Im pretty sure it was a friendly.
Also, probably only once out of like 20 friendlies played that day between you.

 

[Bing]

It could just be a case of **** happens. One set in tourney one person could totally **** the other, they both eventually end up in losers, play again, then the other guy gets blown up. It happens all the time.

 

[unknown522]

when are we gonna play unknown? I really wanna play you, since you're hella good

meh. I'm ok.

Maybe at Big House 2 or something

 

[Bing]

Ryan stfu you're ****.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol first Ripple pops off about how hes the "best Roy"
and now hes saying Tom R's Mario is free

dis ****ing guy

 

[Ripple]

and now hes saying Tom R's Mario is free

dis ****ing guy

unless it was a subtle jab that he isn't very good with mario. which I would disagree, but I just think mario is ***.

learn to read

 

[leffen]

Ahh, funny to read this thread again. I've been /am in France for a while, so I havent had any access to internet, but I hacked a wifi now so lets get to kicking Umbreons ******** *** in this debate.

Because, like other low tiers, he's ruined by simple top tier tactics. Yoshi straight folds to simple things like proper dashdancing, throw > combos, crouch grabs, intelligent edge guarding, etc. Basically all of the things that Yoshi loses to are things you should already be doing. Yoshi also doesn't have the tools to do those things back. He has no fast move out of a dashdance, might as well not even have a grab, and has serious holes when edge guarding himself. So once again, playing normally rewards you and you need relatively little character specific knowledge to beat him. The inability for Yoshi to compete with the viable characters on either an offensive or defensive level is why he is so low on the tier list. That and a total lack of results, something we've ignored up to this point to shut leffen up since he's sidestepped logic at every feasible point for the last week.

Hahaha, it's so stupidly apparent that you have no idea how top level play really work anymore. Washed up, are we?
I'm just writing this offensive (but very very true) disclaimer so that you have something to john about instead of answering to all the points in your posts that sucked ****

"Because, like other low tiers, he's ruined by simple top tier tactics. Yoshi straight folds to simple things like proper dashdancing, throw > combos, crouch grabs, intelligent edge guarding, etc. Basically all of the things that Yoshi loses to are things you should already be doing. "

This is funny. Again, you don't state a certain character that does this.
"Proper Dashdancing", means what? Yoshi has a great WD/Dash dance himself, is almost impossible to dd grab since his moves are so big, have no lag (esp bair, which has half the lag of peach's FC fair), the best air mobility, the best DJC (which makes it impossible to predict where he is gonna land) and a great "empty" (DJC->Dair, zero lag, completely shift air momentum). He is certainly not IMMUNE to your opponents neutral game,but what is so scary about "PROPER DASH DANCING".

That just sounds like a word that you think a top player would throw out, but has no actual meaning whatsoever. Dashes can be read, so that makes it so that every character can do something about it.

"Throw > Combos". I LOVE that you brought up this point, I really hoped you would, because it shows how little you know about Yoshi. Because of his weight, throws are incredibly weak against him. Lets go through the top tiers:

-Fox :has NOTHING that combos (not even bair like against doc/samus/luigi). Uthrow doesn't even work good like against samus/doc/luigi since Yoshi can just DJC punish any attempt at juggling, and he has great fastfall and great airmobility. If you didn't know, Yoshi can easily react to any uair attempt by nairing inbetween the first and second hit
Best throw is dthrow, not even kidding.

- Falco: Has nothing that even sets up well. Uthrow/Bthrow work even worse against him than most since he can control the way he flies after getting thrown much better than almost anyone in the game. Best throw is fthrow, since falco sucks at techchasing.

-Marth: Nothing from uthrow. Fthrow gives a bad techchase (since yoshi is heavy) which yoshi can choose to DI slightly up, enabling him to DJ out of any tech chase attempt. The marth basically has to read to even get the tech chase, and his throws do 4%.

-Sheik: Gets dthrow combos. obviously. Nothing else, and in PAL she doesn't even get a tech chase (yoshi clearly beats her in that version tbh). Big deal, if you do happen to get grabbed not close to a ledge/platform then boohoo, remember that Fox/Falco/CF could get grabbed anywhere and die easier from any top tier (and shiek can't even kill out of the CG).

-Puff: lol rly.

Peach. lol rly (aka nothing).

Ics: bad cgs other than wobbling, much better than average.

CF: Starts comboing uthrow->something above 70%, under that he doesn't even have a tech chase/CG.


In short, Yoshi is the character that comboed the least from a grab in the whole game BY ****ING FAR (except for sheik obv). In other words, jesus learn something about this game umbreon. Also, this means that fishing for DD grab against yoshis aerials that give massive combos is a really bad option.

Yoshi also doesn't have the tools to do those things back. He has no fast move out of a dashdance, might as well not even have a grab, and has serious holes when edge guarding himself. So once again, playing normally rewards you and you need relatively little character specific knowledge to beat him. The inability for Yoshi to compete with the viable characters on either an offensive or defensive level is why he is so low on the tier list.

"No fast move out of dash dance" lmao. How is 1 frame not fast? Sure, parrying may not seem like the best thing to do from a dash dance, but that is because you've only been watching Vman crouch for 2 seconds and then parry.
Parrying means that you can rush into any type of wall (say sheik spacing fair, or puff spacing bair) without bothering, because as you dash away, you're out of range from their attack, and when you get close enough, you put up parry. Dash dancing makes it very unpredictable when you're gonna rush in, and it also means that they can't simply delay the aerial to avoid parrying.

With this as base, you establish that you're opponent cannot attack. If he follows that, then it doesn't matter if you're moves are slow, since attacking to interrupt them is so risky.
Aside from that, Yoshi has a 11 frame grab with (which is 3 frames slower than a perfect JC grab, aka as fast as the average jc grab) which lunges forward and then has a marth like range (so more range in total).

Oh, and I almost forgot. Yoshi doesn't really rely on dash dancing, he spends more time wavedashing (ala samus) or jumping (ala jiggs/peach) or wave"dancing" on a platform (ala yoshi). From there, he has top tier speed and priority, so yes, he can do top tier things to top tiers.

I will admit that he has holes when edgeguarding, but he has things that no others have that make up for it. On paper, it may seem like has has bad edgeguarding, but when you look against the top tiers, he has GREAT edgeguarding. (fox/falco/marth/puff/sheik/falcon are all freeeee to his edgeguards).

So once again, playing normally rewards you and you need relatively little character specific knowledge to beat him.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Im so gonna make this my sig LMAO. This is the exact opposite of what it really is like, yoshi is extremely hard to get used to playing against because of his unique playstyle. I hope this is a joke, ANY decent player can see that playing against yoshi is extremely different from playing against any other character.

“That and a total lack of results, something we've ignored up to this point to shut leffen up since he's sidestepped logic at every feasible point for the last week.”

How many good players use Yoshi? That’s your answer. People don’t play him because he is too unique, awkward, and because he has a really steep learning curve, not because he is bad.
I used him for roughly one month and won 3 separate “nationals” (aka 30 man tournaments) very dominantly (3 stocking was standard in GF)

Parry is not a good answer to movement into grab abuse any more than sidestepping is. It's much better to have a traditional shield that allows movement as a means to minimize lag (jump, WD). It's is not ignorant to say that Yoshi can be edge guarded, as his 2nd jump can be properly navigated and still edge guarded with experience about as well as any other edge guard.

Parry has no lag, sidestepping does. Please, don’t compare them. I don’t really get your second sentence, but Yoshi’s shield is far better to have at a top level than any other shield.

He can be edgeguarded, but not as well as any other edgeguard. Its easily one of the best ingame, since under 70% the risk reward for edgeguarding him is really really bad, and letting him take the ledge is bad too, since his planking game is stupid good.

“Sheik's CG on yoshi existing in NTSC means that almost anyone that knows you play yoshi can attempt to lame you out in a bracket. As a yoshi player, you can go into any given bracket set with a possible 90-10 matchup against you simply because your opponents knows what character you play. Any strategy that is easily hated out becomes nonviable in any game.”

Wrong. Getting the grab is really hard, and seriously, even if you could **** some low level player with a sheik secondary, who the **** cares. We’re talking about TOP level play.
Do you see everyone counterpick spacies with any character that can chaingrab? No, because getting the grab is hard.

“For the record, being an easy character is a good thing. "Complexity" is definitely a hindrance.”

For a low/mid level player and a sidebench analyzer, sure. At top level, no ****ing way. Being unique is definitely a top tier trait since you can’t learn to play against Yoshi without playing against another character, and Yoshi has a million little specific things.





Phew, looking forward to the response.

Anyway, while you can change the timing to throw off Parrying, remember that Yoshi has no lag, and if you don’t attack him, he isn’t affected at all and just jumps away. You can attack him in the very little timing between jump and w/e, but that has to be a HARD and very risky read. Not to mention, Yoshi can simply weave in and out so that they don’t have to option to just delay the timing.

The whole thing is that the threat of parrying makes it so that your opponent can never attack at their preferred time. They have to delay heavily or fake an attack, WHICH CAN BE COUNTERED WITH ANY ATTACK BY THE YOSHI

I dont even care about where Yoshi will end up at this tier list, I quit that a long time ago. Now its fun to just mock the people who think they understand, but are in the end, extremely clueless

 

[Ripple]

If you didn't know, Yoshi can easily react to any uair attempt by nairing inbetween the first and second hit

just thought I'd let you know that this actually isn't possible.

up-air's hitboxes are 2 frames apart. Yoshi's nair hits frame 3.

 

[leffen]

oh yeah, thats right. I guess I've just been avoiding the second hit and nairing (since the first one doesn't stop him).

Regardless, you could still do SDI->djc nair for a punish


thx :>

 

[The Star King]

I ****ing love this Kimimaru guy

 

[ShroudedOne]

If anyone needed proof to see that judging people by their post dates is stupid, Kimimaru is apt evidence.

 

[The Star King]

If anyone needed proof to see that judging people by their post dates is stupid, Kimimaru is apt evidence.

And then there's kids like Umbreon

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Leffen what do u mean yoshi's bair has half the lag of peach's fc fair? All fc moves only have 4 frames of landing lag, no move only has 2 frames of lag as far as i know. So what did u mean?

 

[Bones0]

He probably meant it the other way. I believe the lag on spacie bairs is 10 frames?

 

[Deleted member]

And then there's kids like Umbreon

I can make good posts if asked to, I just don't like posting walls of text. You're no ray of intellectual sunshine yourself.

I intend to respond to kimimaru in the next few days, I'm just not feeling it right now.

 

[Rainbow]

leffen you've actually convinced me Yoshi is a **** train, hopefully you can prove it to everyone else.

 

[Warhawk]

I wish there were more Yoshi players out there to solve this for sure, but on the other hand I like the walls of information on Yoshi this debate has created.

 

[Max?]

Yoshi sucks

 

[#HBC | Mac]

and a great "empty" (DJC->Dair, zero lag, completely shift air momentum).

mofo discovered this with ness as well

ahhh low tiers

 

[V3ctorMan]

yoshi is ****

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Yoshi's a dinosaur. Dinosaur's are dumb. Yoshi is dumb.

I mean, what kind of species lets themselves get killed by an asteroid? If years of watching Anime has taught me anything, it's that the sword is mightier than the asteroid. So all they needed to do was cut it using a sword. Sure, dinosaurs may not have had swords, but I'm sure they had body parts that were similar to them.

So, to summarize, dinosaurs are dumb, and no one likes them. Yoshi is also a dinosaur, so he is also dumb, and no one likes him either.

On a final note, I strongly believe this should be Leffen's official theme song. It's just so appropriate for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsKO_r76kfQ#t=10

 

[The Star King]

RaphaelRobo is a god tier poster

I should start making a list

Also I wonder how Umbreon thinks he knows what he's talking about when it comes to Yoshi

Enlighten us, o great one

 

[Divinokage]

Omg Barney!! lolol.

 

[Deleted member]

Also I wonder how Umbreon thinks he knows what he's talking about when it comes to Yoshi

Enlighten us, o great one

it goes like this, as a progression:

leffen makes claims > people disagree with said claims/people agree with him > leffen flames those that disagree with him/people that agree with him say that yoshi is secretly amazing > those flamed by leffen see the cycle of lunacy and leave this thread > no one actually plays yoshi or does well with him in tournament > a bunch of johns for the character happen > character still has no results in 10 years of playing the game > yoshi still sucks.

then there's about a 3 day latency period, followed by

Vman made bracket at a national with yoshi (which he would have easily done with falco) > scrubs ignore that he had a strict tactical disadvantage by playing yoshi but for some reason this is a good thing? > suddenly yoshi has "results" > people that have actually been going to tournaments for a long time (me, lovage, otg) understand that yoshi still sucks.

the fact is, as long as the characters wins nothing, there's no reason to study him.

i live all of 15 minutes from you. i'd be happy to sack your *** at this game in person if it'll shut you up online.

 

[Jockmaster]

Real World: Smashboards

 

[The Star King]

I was asking about personal experience with Yoshi

Still feeling unenlightened

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

For the sake of transparency...

[collapse=Compiled Preliminary Tier List]S:
Fox 1.57
Falco 1.86

A:
Sheik 3.14
Marth 4.43
Puff 4.64
Peach 5.79

B:
Falcon 7.00
ICs 7.93
Doc 8.86

C:
Samus 10.64
:ganonmelee:Ganon 11.36
Pikachu 11.86
Luigi 12.85 (1 abstain)
Mario 13.71

D:
DK 15.46 (1 abstain)
Y Link 16.29
Link 16.38 (1 abstain)
Zelda 18.08 (1 abstain)
Yoshi 18.85 (1 abstain)

E:
Roy 20.67 (2 abstain) / Mewtwo 20.67 (2 abstain)
:gwmelee:G&W 21.33 (2 abstain)
Ness 22.54 (1 abstain)

F:
Kirby 24.15 (1 abstain)
Bowser 24.25 (1 abstain)
Pichu 24.62 (1 abstain)[/collapse]

This is before the discussion has begun. Feel free to hold public discussions and critiques of this list and we will try to take things into account.

@umbreon: i am quoting sveet to get this back to what started this whole yoshi thing. Now the argument started that yoshi should not be below zelda and then leffen and others gave reasons why. Then leffen went to far and said yoshi is better then samus which at this moment wont hold up. But i believe yoshi is better then zelda and probably around dk level.

Now umbreon you where saying how yoshi sucks and no results ect ect, well then the same could be said for zelda and dk doesn't have more relevant results then yoshi since 2007 (that i know of). So what is your argument that yoshi is below these characters with all the yoshi info that has been being dropped in this thread?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Zelda doesn't have good results? You serious? She has incredible results for her tier position. Cosmo's reign in the Midwest is still very relevant today. Plus, in terms of smash history, there have been plenty of relevant Zeldas kicking up dust. Yoshi hasn't been seen in tournament until literally a year/year and a half ago. Bowser has more historical importance.

Link just got 2nd at a socal local, which might not sound impressive except for the fact that each socal local has ~8-12 national level players; J666 has been performing at a high level for a really long time even if his accomplishments have gone largely unnoticed. Lord HDL's run in Pound IV, the GERM's excellence whenever he plays (he's using Link in Rule 6), and Aether's performance in France give Link results that validate his position.

I think we all know Young Link and Mewtwo have results. They've been in GFs/WFs of nationals before...Taj got 17th at APEX 2010 going Mewtwo only ffs...(for reference thats outplacing guys like Cactuar, MacD, PC Chris, Unknown522)

You can make an argument for Yoshi but it sure as **** can't be results based. Other than Vman making bracket (really impressive) and Leffen winning a few Swedish tourneys, hes got nothing. Everyone above Yoshi, and even some characters below him, have better results.

Now I'm not saying you SHOULD use results to determine things, but if thats the route you want to go, at least get the facts straight. Yoshi has accomplished (almost) nothing in the 10.5 years the games been out. To put Yoshi as high as these guys want to, especially above established tournament threats like Samus and Ganon, you'd have to use a lot of theory. A LOT of theory.

 

[Deleted member]

I was asking about personal experience with Yoshi

Still feeling unenlightened

i've ***** every yoshi i've ever played because sheik has sticky fingers and i don't respect the character.

you don't need yoshi experience to understand that he is really bad.

@umbreon: i am quoting sveet to get this back to what started this whole yoshi thing. Now the argument started that yoshi should not be below zelda and then leffen and others gave reasons why. Then leffen went to far and said yoshi is better then samus which at this moment wont hold up. But i believe yoshi is better then zelda and probably around dk level.

Now umbreon you where saying how yoshi sucks and no results ect ect, well then the same could be said for zelda and dk doesn't have more relevant results then yoshi since 2007 (that i know of). So what is your argument that yoshi is below these characters with all the yoshi info that has been being dropped in this thread?

frankly, i think the tier list should only have 3 tiers: viable, semi-viable, and non-viable. i would place zelda and yoshi both into non-viable. whether one is actually better than the other is negligible.

i personally would put zelda above yoshi because i have been successful as her, but that's pretty negligible too.

 

[Ripple]

I'm pretty sure Cosmo hasn't played in a year to 2 years. he's been doing speed runs