Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Zelda doesn't have good results? You serious? She has incredible results for her tier position. Cosmo's reign in the Midwest is still very relevant today. Plus, in terms of smash history, there have been plenty of relevant Zeldas kicking up dust. Yoshi hasn't been seen in tournament until literally a year/year and a half ago. Bowser has more historical importance.

Link just got 2nd at a socal local, which might not sound impressive except for the fact that each socal local has ~8-12 national level players; J666 has been performing at a high level for a really long time even if his accomplishments have gone largely unnoticed. Lord HDL's run in Pound IV, the GERM's excellence whenever he plays (he's using Link in Rule 6), and Aether's performance in France give Link results that validate his position.

I think we all know Young Link and Mewtwo have results. They've been in GFs/WFs of nationals before...Taj got 17th at APEX 2010 going Mewtwo only ffs...(for reference thats outplacing guys like Cactuar, MacD, PC Chris, Unknown522)

You can make an argument for Yoshi but it sure as **** can't be results based. Other than Vman making bracket (really impressive) and Leffen winning a few Swedish tourneys, hes got nothing. Everyone above Yoshi, and even some characters below him, have better results.

Now I'm not saying you SHOULD use results to determine things, but if thats the route you want to go, at least get the facts straight. Yoshi has accomplished (almost) nothing in the 10.5 years the games been out. To put Yoshi as high as these guys want to, especially above established tournament threats like Samus and Ganon, you'd have to use a lot of theory. A LOT of theory.

Wow there is a lot wrong with your argument, but some solid points as well. First lets touch on the worst part of your argument "smash history" why does what happened in 2005 effect today's tier list? I think we should all agree to only look back as far as 2010 when looking at results and the meta game.

Now the 2nd thing u said which is wrong (well misleading) dont make it sound as if ylink made it to wf/gf on his own merits, it was peach which got their and then ylink came in as a guest star.

I cant speak to this link player and him getting 2nd, i have no idea who else was even at the tourney.

I find it kinda strange why it sounds like you are downplaying leffen winning tourneys with yoshi, is it b/c its pal or do u think Sweden is a weak region and do u think its weaker then the midwest where cosmo was winning?

I dont understand why when talking to me u bring up yoshi not being better then samus or ganon b/c i never thought or argued that.

I personally believe that character attributes and results should both be weighed in making the tier list, and i believe that when u look at the tools yoshi has and compare them to zelda's and maybe even dk's the argument could be made for yoshi having more going for him.

Edit:@umbreon, while i find your argument "that u have done better with zelda" falls flat b/c who u personally can use better means nothing. The rest of your post does help clarify your position and while i disagree with just lumping characters into groups like u suggest i now at least understand where u r coming from (which is a good thing)

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

First lets touch on the worst part of your argument "smash history" why does what happened in 2005 effect today's tier list? I think we should all agree to only look back as far as 2010 when looking at results and the meta game.

There isn't a lot of data on low tiers. Using results with such a small player pool is iffy enough as it is, and limiting your scope to only a year or two takes away too many data points.

The fact that Yoshi had zero tournament presence until 2010/11 shouldn't just be thrown away because it doesn't fit your arbitrary restrictions. Now, you could use this to argue in favor of Yoshi (hes just a very underdeveloped character!) or against him (hes been losing for 10 years straight), but either way, its a relevant point in a results-based discussion.

Regardless, all of the examples I gave [Link: J666, GERM, HDL, Aether; Taj @ Genesis 2 and APEX 2010; Cosmo in 2010/2011 - SECOND in SMYM 12 (103 entrants) in March 2011; Armada v Hbox] are all after 2010 so even within your criteria, Yoshi loses a results-based argument outright.

Now the 2nd thing u said which is wrong (well misleading) dont make it sound as if ylink made it to wf/gf on his own merits, it was peach which got their and then ylink came in as a guest star.

Yes, Young Link didn't win the 2nd largest tournament of all time on his own. If he had, we'd all be freaking out and he wouldn't be where he is. But the fact that he had a major part in the victory is significantly more impressive than anything Yoshi has ever done.

I find it kinda strange why it sounds like you are downgrading leffen winning tourneys with yoshi, is it b/c its pal or do u think Sweden is a weak region and do u think its weaker then the midwest where cosmo was winning?

Cosmo beat MacD. He beat Kels. Tink. Tom R. Matt R. Atma. Andale. Rat. Deku. Cunning Kitsune. Little England. Wife. Dope. RockCrock. Trail. dmac.

The list goes on but SSBPD isn't fully back up and I'm too lazy to go through old results threads. The point is: Cosmo *****. I'm not taking away anything from Leffen.

But what Cosmo did was exceptional.

I personally believe that character attributes and results should both be weighed in making the tier list, and i believe that when u look at the tools yoshi has and compare them to zelda's and maybe even dk's the argument could be made for yoshi having more going for him.

Good for you. Combining results and theory is the consensus method.

But you made a purely results based argument, and what I'm trying to tell you is that Yoshi's results are *** and in no way comparable to the characters above him, around him, and even below him. The only way to justify putting him as high as you or others do is with a significant amount of theory.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I dont have time right now to go over your whole response, but the reason to discount those old data point is b/c they r no longer relevent. Just b/c the characters r lacking use and therefore data does not mean bringing in ancient data which no longer has any use is a good idea. The reason i want to limit my data to the last two years is so all the info we have is more relvent to the current level of play. Using info from 2005 is pointless since the overall skill level was much lower.

Once again u keep acting like ylink has results, when in fact all he has is a couple of wins vs jigglypuff.

 

[JPOBS]

I propose a new tier list assortment based on the OTG matchup system.

1. If you have any 90-10 matchups at all, or matchups might as well be 90-10, you are automatically placed in Non-viable Tier.

2. If the majority of your matchups are slight-disadvantage or even vs relevant characters, you are placed in Semi-Viable Tier.

3. If the majority of your matchups are slight advantage or even, one or two slight disadvantage, you are placed in Viable Tier.

There. Now we can stop talking about whether yoshi should be above DK or not, both are unviable.

 

[Max?]

I propose a new tier list assortment based on the OTG matchup system.

1. If you have any 90-10 matchups at all, or matchups might as well be 90-10, you are automatically placed in Non-viable Tier.

2. If the majority of your matchups are slight-disadvantage or even vs relevant characters, you are placed in Semi-Viable Tier.

3. If the majority of your matchups are slight advantage or even, one or two slight disadvantage, you are placed in Viable Tier.

There. Now we can stop talking about whether yoshi should be above DK or not, both are unviable.

As usual, you are one of the few people on this website that truly understands the metagame.

He's right guys, DK and Yoshi are both ****ing awful, so who cares?

 

[john!]

I propose a new tier list assortment based on the OTG matchup system.

1. If you have any 90-10 matchups at all, or matchups might as well be 90-10, you are automatically placed in Non-viable Tier.

2. If the majority of your matchups are slight-disadvantage or even vs relevant characters, you are placed in Semi-Viable Tier.

3. If the majority of your matchups are slight advantage or even, one or two slight disadvantage, you are placed in Viable Tier.

There. Now we can stop talking about whether yoshi should be above DK or not, both are unviable.

this would mean that peach is "semi-viable"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Facts:
Parrying occurs as Yoshi is putting his shield up (guardon): he is invincible 1-6 and can jump on frames 2-6.
Yoshi does not receive hitlag during guardon, though the opponent does (when applicable)
Yoshi also reflects projectiles on frames 1-2 (still unclear of exact details)
Yoshi's forward and backward rolls are invincible for the entire duration of the animation (1-34). His spotdodge is not: invincible 2-15 of 22


Just some things to think about. I also noticed that yoshi's nair hitbox is god-awful though his bair hitbox is pretty good (despite hitting neither up nor down very well).


Anyways, done studying yoshi. My focus is going on characters that matter for the next 24 hours

 

[unknown522]

I remember that yoshi's n-air can't beat Firefox/bird when facing forward. I find that pretty funny.

 

[Ripple]

Yoshi's forward and backward rolls are invincible for the entire duration of the animation (1-34).

is this only if he parries something then rolls? otherwise this isn't true.

 

[Warhawk]

Yoshi's forward and backward rolls are invincible for the entire duration of the animation (1-34).

Pretty sure this isn't true its just that when he is vulnerable during his rolls, you have to hit a very small area in the center of his egg.

 

[Xyzz]

Yoshis roll is the weirdest thing ever :x
At times he gets hit in the middle of the animation, other times he straight up rolls through Peach's DSmash and then shields on the other side and gets a grab / whatever... Stupid dinosaur :D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

All I know is this is what I see when I go into dolphin and roll with yoshi

Legend:

Yellow: Hurtboxes
Blue: Invincible
Green: Reflect
Cyan: Shield

 

[The Star King]

As far as I can tell the legend is pretty much the same as Smash 64's, and green = parrying in that. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Bones0]

C/D: If you roll and continue to hold shield, you will parry for the 6 frames after your roll finishes.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I tried buffering multiple rolls with Yoshi and continuously shooting lasers with Fox, and he would always get hit by a few random lasers. I couldn't really tell if the lasers hit him during the roll or in between rolls, but if he is truly invincible for the entire roll animation, why is this happening?

 

[Lovage]

nagace you are dumb as a sack of rocks

cosmo earned those results, they are relevant, he actually proved to people zeldas not as ****ty as we thought (she's still super ****ty tho)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

nagace you are dumb as a sack of rocks

cosmo earned those results, they are relevant, he actually proved to people zeldas not as ****ty as we thought (she's still super ****ty tho)

Wow uncalled for. I didnt say he didnt earn the results so idk what u r having issue with, in fact i was just asking who he was facing since i didnt follow cosmo's results.

Calling me dumb is an unnecessary insult idk what your problem is

 

[Xyzz]

I tried buffering multiple rolls with Yoshi and continuously shooting lasers with Fox, and he would always get hit by a few random lasers. I couldn't really tell if the lasers hit him during the roll or in between rolls, but if he is truly invincible for the entire roll animation, why is this happening?

If I am not mistaken there is some really tiny hurtbox somewhere at the center of the egg all the time during his roll. That thing can be hit. Though if it gets hit or not is somewhat mysterious to me (and I get to play against a Yoshi / Falco dual main a lot ... makes it kinda fun to watch people playing the matchup totally wrong all the time :D)

 

[Strong Badam]

late to the party but DK sucks

going to keep using him forever though

 

[Divinokage]

So what? Ganon sucks, but I still use him forever, it's about love man.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As far as I can tell the legend is pretty much the same as Smash 64's, and green = parrying in that. Just throwing that out there.

Ah that makes sense then to why yoshi was green when he was parrying haha. I thought the hitbox around reflector was green too but i could be wrong.

 

[The Star King]

You're right Fox's shine IS green. Never mind I think I'm wrong about the parrying, because it looks like it lasts one frame. It's just that all the other colors matched with Smash64's (yellow = hurtbox, red = hitbox, blue = invincibility that doesn't cause hitlag like parrying does) so I assumed that one would, especially since parrying is in the beginning of Yoshi's shield so it would fit

 

[Fregadero]

If I am not mistaken there is some really tiny hurtbox somewhere at the center of the egg all the time during his roll. That thing can be hit. Though if it gets hit or not is somewhat mysterious to me (and I get to play against a Yoshi / Falco dual main a lot ... makes it kinda fun to watch people playing the matchup totally wrong all the time :D)

Don't shield pokes only happen when the hurtbox doesn't overlap w/ the shield?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Just for a side note on zelda, am I the only one who remembers M2K losing to Mow's Zelda in a MM a couple weeks back? Seems somewhat relevant, though not as relevant as Cosmo wrecking shop.

 

[Deleted member]

Just for a side note on zelda, am I the only one who remembers M2K losing to Mow's Zelda in a MM a couple weeks back? Seems somewhat relevant, though not as relevant as Cosmo wrecking shop.

it wasn't for money, and only one of the matches was tournament legal because the second match had items.

I found a great new combo in match 2. zelda to sheik, bair > bair > MOLTRES. it's pretty good

 

[The Star King]

Moltres is so imba omg

Best Pokemon in the game, Jigglypuff ain't ****

 

[Jockmaster]

raikou is so much better than moltres

 

[Pink Reaper]

it wasn't for money, and only one of the matches was tournament legal because the second match had items.

I found a great new combo in match 2. zelda to sheik, bair > bair > MOLTRES. it's pretty good

You told me it was for money you ****

Also Bair > Bair > Spore > Focus Punch is clearly rhyperior

 

[Deleted member]

You told me it was for money you ****

Also Bair > Bair > Spore > Focus Punch is clearly rhyperior

my aim logs don't say anything about it being for money.

but yeah your combo is obviously better. mine only kills 1 thing, not 6.

 

[The Star King]

If Breloom was in Smash I would so be a Breloom main

 

[Jockmaster]

Breloom confirmed for Super Smash Bros: Kerfuffle!

 

[Xyzz]

Don't shield pokes only happen when the hurtbox doesn't overlap w/ the shield?

We're talking about the roll here; there's no shield involved
(For the record: Yoshi can't be shield poked at all).


@Breloom: It's pretty annoying, but there are many valid counters (Gliscor, Celebi, Dragonite just to name a few )

 

[darkatma]

just because cosmo was amazing and dedicated doesn't mean zelda is viable

he did pull some amazing with zelda while he played though.. and now he's gone back to real zelda games
i'd like to point out he always sheik dittoed me though :x I did lose to zelda with secondaries though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He used Sheik for the Sheik MU, yup yup.

 

[The Star King]

One of Zelda's worst match-ups is her alter ego lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not many people know it, but Cosmo had a really great Link too. And one of the best marth's the MW has seen. And could play fox/falco and keep up with kelly. That guy was pretty good at melee.

 

[leffen]

lmfao at umbreon. I knew you would just complain about me being "rude" instead of answering any of my argument that buttfkd yours.


Its funny that you claim "any decent player can see yoshi is horrible" when you every single argument you presented was either straight out wrong or not really relevant. I guess that means that you can't explain why yoshi is so bad, so it makes you a horrible player.

apparently it also makes every single player i've fought with yoshi a bad player, as everyone has said hell no to the question I ask them after we're done ("is yoshi bottom tier like ******* like umbreon say?"). That includes Armada (who admitted to me playing Yoshi being the main reason he moved him up on the tier list) and just about every top european player there is (insert x name here)


Whatever, I guess we just don't SEE it, and it just happens to every single of one of your arguments being crushed (since you don't know ****) doesn't matter because we just aren't good players. Yes, that is the argument the former leader of the MBR uses to defend his tier list placement after he gets ***** in a debate. Oh well, I'm looking forward to convincing PP when I play with him tomorrow and he can tell you.



-----------------------



Cosmo winning with Zelda doesn't PROVE that Zelda is better than X or Y, it just proves that she is VIABLE to use.

also, yoshis shield is tha ****ing best and his roll is easily the best ingame. Sad that we just don't see how horrible he is, though.

 

[Beat!]

You're on Umbreon's ignore list. He can't see your posts.

 

[Ripple]

also, yoshis shield is tha ****ing best and his roll is easily the best ingame. Sad that we just don't see how horrible he is, though.

Roll Ratings - measures how long a character is invincible during his/her roll, kind of like it is on the dodge ratings list, ranking a roll's rating by the percentage of the roll that you're invincible to ALL attack. (BTW, every decimal in the percentages are ALL repeating decimals, so I didn't bother to put a line over it or ..... to signify that it's a repeating decimal, because by coincidence ALL of the decimals are repeating decimals).


Group A
20/35 or 57.142857%
---Marth's "BACK" Roll
---Roy's "BACK" Roll

Group B
16/31 or 51.612903225806451%
---Captain Falcon (Both Rolls)
---DK (Both Rolls)
---Dr. Mario (Both Rolls)
---Falco (Both Rolls)
---Fox (Both Rolls)
---Ganondorf (Both Rolls)
---Ice Climbers (Both Rolls)
---Kirby (Both Rolls)
---Luigi (Both Rolls)
---Mario (Both Rolls)
---Ness (Both Rolls)
---Peach (Both Rolls)
---Pichu (Both Rolls)
---Pikachu (Both Rolls)
---Sheik (Both Rolls)
---Zelda (Both Rolls)

Group C
18/37 or 48.648%
---Mewtwo's "FORWARD" Roll

Group D
16/33 or 48.48%
---Yoshi (Both Rolls)

Group E
16/34 or 47.0588235294117647%
---Jigglypuff (Both Rolls)***

Group F
16/35 or 45.714285%
---Marth's "FORWARD" Roll
---Mr. Game & Watch (Both Rolls)
---Roy's "FORWARD" Roll

Group G
20/44 or 45.45%
---Samus (Both Rolls)

Group H
16/37 or 43.243%
---Link (Both Rolls)
---Mewtwo's "BACK" Roll
---Young Link (Both Rolls)

Group I
16/39 or 41.025641%
---Bowser (Both Rolls)*****

________________________________________

Rolling Distance - shows overall rankings for how far each character rolls (average between Forward and Back rolls)

1) Mewtwo (by a long run)
2) Marth
3) Samus
4) Pichu
5) Sheik
6) Falco
7) Roy
8) Ganondorf
9) Luigi
10) DK
11) Link
12) Pikachu
13) Ice Climbers
14) Captain Falcon
15) Fox
16) Zelda
17-18) Dr. Mario / Mario
19) Jigglypuff
20) Ness
21) Kirby
22) Yoshi
23) Peach
24) Young Link
25) Mr. Game & Watch
26) Bowser

--------------------------------------------------

Forward Rolling Distance

1) Mewtwo
2) Marth
3) Sheik
4) Pichu
5) Samus
6) Falco
7) DK
8) Ganondorf
9) Roy
10) Luigi
11) Pikachu
12) Link
13) Ice Climbers
14) Captain Falcon
15) Fox
16) Zelda
17-18) Dr. Mario / Mario
19) Jigglypuff
20) Kirby
21) Yoshi
22) Peach
23) Ness
24) Bowser
25) Young Link
26) Mr. Game & Watch

--------------------------------------------------

Backwards Rolling Distance

1) Mewtwo
2) Marth
3) Samus
4) Falco
5) Pichu
6) Roy
7) Sheik
8) Ganondorf
9) Luigi
10) Link
11) Ness
12) DK
13) Ice Climbers
14) Captain Falcon
15) Fox
16) Pikachu
17-18) Dr. Mario / Mario
19) Jigglypuff
20) Zelda
21) Kirby
22) Yoshi
23) Peach
24) Young Link
25) Mr. Game & Watch
26) Bowser

you need to look up more stuff before you say something as fact. Yoshi has terrible rolls

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I did some research and on yoshi's roll: the hurtbox is a small circle "just smaller than his fist" according to the yoshi frame data thread (also, Xyzz said it first). Frame data in ripple's and others' posts are accurate.