Official MBR Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

Guys, like I already said. It's not about the banning, it's about his inclusion int eh tier list. He isn't banned, and I think it is pretty obvious he isn't nearly broken enough to warrant it, and he doesn't overly disrupt gameplay IMO.

I think he breaks too many rules for him to be a character.

You can't really do anything to him. You can't kill him. You can't hit him offstage in the same manner as a normal character. What Master Hand results in is a challenge to his opponent to not be hit by his extremely laggy, telegraphed attacks (not hard) or not SD. You're more likely to lose a match because of a tech skill flub than by Master Hand hitting one of his god-awful moves. The flipside is, though, that Master Hand automatically wins the match if you do actually SD.

I don't think such a model is healthy at all. A character that can't interactively engage in combat and that can only win by the opponent killing themselves (by jumping into his moves, a tech skill flub that makes them jump into his moves, or by illusion off with Fox/Falco or something) seems like an incredibly stupid idea. And if that's not bad enough, even if he loses, he's still an 8-minute drain.

I'm not entirely sure how none of that consitutes "not disruptive". Making a match 8-minutes long purely by character selection and making everything within the match except SDs and tech skill flubs completely irrelevant seems stupid as hell.

 

[X1-12]

so anyone gonna tell me what happens when both player blind pick master hand?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think he breaks too many rules for him to be a character.

You can't really do anything to him. You can't kill him. You can't hit him offstage in the same manner as a normal character. What Master Hand results in is a challenge to his opponent to not be hit by his extremely laggy, telegraphed attacks (not hard) or not SD. You're more likely to lose a match because of a tech skill flub than by Master Hand hitting one of his god-awful moves. The flipside is, though, that Master Hand automatically wins the match if you do actually SD.

I don't think such a model is healthy at all. A character that can't interactively engage in combat and that can only win by the opponent killing themselves (by jumping into his moves, a tech skill flub that makes them jump into his moves, or by illusion off with Fox/Falco or something) seems like an incredibly stupid idea. And if that's not bad enough, even if he loses, he's still an 8-minute drain.

I'm not entirely sure how none of that consitutes "not disruptive". Making a match 8-minutes long purely by character selection and making everything within the match except SDs and tech skill flubs completely irrelevant seems stupid as hell.

Yes, he's an unhealthy character model, but is any player with half a chance of winning gonna pick him?


He's available now honestly (nobody bans him) and how many people play him in tournaments?


Nobody, he's an auto-lose character far worse then Ganon in Brawl, Pichu and Kirby here, and by a massive margin worse then any iteration of Dan in SF was.


People don't toss a match to be funny generally because it doesn't really help them win, the get no benefit except trolling and generally people don't waste their money to troll. As such, I see now reason to consider banning him unless he actually becomes an issue.

so anyone gonna tell me what happens when both player blind pick master hand?

If it ever happens (both players are lol-phail obviously) then RPS is the standard method of deciding things like this, though I'd put it in officially unless we wanna actually ban him.

 

[X1-12]

If it ever happens (both players are lol-phail obviously) then RPS is the standard method of deciding things like this, though I'd put it in officially unless we wanna actually ban him.

what the hell is RPS?

EDIT: oh its rock paper scissors but still how is it not broken that only one person can play this character at a time

 

[MarioMariox2]

what the hell is RPS?

EDIT: oh its rock paper scissors but still how is it not broken that only one person can play this character at a time

Lol, Master hand RPS. In any case, yeah, it'll be a fight to see who gets the player 3 slot iffen they double blind MH. But then what's the point of playing smash if the winner is the winner of rps?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

but you can't have the "SS vs Darkrain" of MH mains

 

[adumbrodeus]

Lol, Master hand RPS. In any case, yeah, it'll be a fight to see who gets the player 3 slot iffen they double blind MH. But then what's the point of playing smash if the winner is the winner of rps?

Loser of RPS.


If we weren't talking about two players playing RPS to see who gets to sandbag the other guy worse I would agree with you.



Does it really only work on the 3 player slot? My understanding of the glitch was that it functions to advance the player to the stage selection screen in spite of the fact that it shouldn't be able to do so, and no character selected = MH.

That's why it allows you to have 4 members of the same team (last is pitch-black).

 

[X1-12]

Loser of RPS.


If we weren't talking about two players playing RPS to see who gets to sandbag the other guy worse I would agree with you.



Does it really only work on the 3 player slot? My understanding of the glitch was that it functions to advance the player to the stage selection screen in spite of the fact that it shouldn't be able to do so, and no character selected = MH.

That's why it allows you to have 4 members of the same team (last is pitch-black).

you can get MH to appear in any slot but you can only control him if you're P3

 

[adumbrodeus]

you can get MH to appear in any slot but you can only control him if you're P3

Ah ok. So, then I'm in favor of a formal ban.


With a caveat, the "if both players agree" rule should apply here.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Just because he is playable doesnt mean he should be legal.

You cannot try to justify the rules with he sucks. Either Master Hand is legal or he isnt. There cant be any well, in teams, or not on this stage BS.

Just because he sucks, doesnt nullify the advantage of not being killed. If you dont mess up, you are guaranteed to have to play him for 8 minutes.

Certain advantages are broken. Being a bad character isnt reason enough to allow them to have these advantages.

When m2 was the worst character on the tier list, why didnt he get an extra stock because his hurtbox was so big.

It wouldnt make sense to ban a character because they are an utter failure. Thats the situation where you say if ppl want to waste their money-ie free win etc etc. But if a bad character has an unfair advantage like not being killed, he or any other character despite their abilities should be unselectable in tourney.

 

[Dark Hart]

What this is I don't even...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think we should talk about the format where Master Hand really shines.

Teams.

 

[Tamoo]

Non master hand team go SS and Tang on the masterhand team for all seven of the stocks of the person who's on their own, then proceed to ledge camp/ avoid MH in general for all remaining minutes.

****.

 

[x After Dawn x]

master hand in doubles is an even worse idea.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think MH should be a playable chartcer but I still think MH should be knocked up tilll 999% or something. You can't clank with any of his moves he always wins, if he takes you to YS you can't run much and he attacks are odd they target the cloud so when he uses his drill spin attack he moves to the left or right sometimes chaseing people. one or 2 hits will kill you and you can't run much and you would have to do that for 8 minutes.

The next best reason is MH couild easily give people bad habits.

 

[hungrybox]

MASTER HAND:

FOR EVERY STOCK THE PLAYER MUST GIVE 100% TO THE MASTER HAND

So if MH reaches 400% the opponent wins the match.


It's really not that hard guys.

In MH dittos, the first to reach 400% loses.

I've actually been playing that with my friends a couple of times....

MH RARELY wins, but with that 400% rule he is considered a character - just a terrible one.


Like Kirby.



Teams would never work.

Unless ONE player from both sides picked MH.

Then it would be like a 1v1 - except each character has an MH to back them up.

Which can't aim where it attacks.

Yep.

 

[hungrybox]

Actually, teams would work - when MH reaches 400%, he has to STOP attacking or else the match is forfeited.


Has anyone tested if you can share stock with MH?

 

[gnosis]

Master Hand guarantees at least 16+ minutes wasted on a set for which the winner is already known. The only reason to pick him is to troll. A lot of tournaments have enough trouble finishing on time as it is, I don't think they should have to cater to MH shenanigans, even if you can't formulate a Sirlin-approved reason for his ban.

 

[KAOSTAR]

man **** all of you guys lol

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

...just for the record, can't Master Hand(s) only be controlled by the 3rd controller port?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just because he is playable doesnt mean he should be legal.

Nobody is gonna necessarily disagree with that, bans occur if they are needed.

You cannot try to justify the rules with he sucks. Either Master Hand is legal or he isnt. There cant be any well, in teams, or not on this stage BS.

In general I disagree, we already have separate rules for teams and singles.

The stages that he's invincible on are already banned under the MBR rules.

When m2 was the worst character on the tier list, why didnt he get an extra stock because his hurtbox was so big.

If something that like were programmed into his character I'd disagree.

It wouldnt make sense to ban a character because they are an utter failure. Thats the situation where you say if ppl want to waste their money-ie free win etc etc. But if a bad character has an unfair advantage like not being killed, he or any other character despite their abilities should be unselectable in tourney.

The point with this is that he doesn't break the game from the prospective of being overpowering even if he has this tremendous advantage. It only matters if something has an unfair advantage if the advantage is usable.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

How bout:
A player is given 1 minute to activate the MH glitch, if he fails to do it correctly in the allowed time he must immediately pick a character of the designated cast.
let's see someone pull it off in 1 minute. If he does, then great, he's about to get 4 stocked.

 

[adumbrodeus]

MASTER HAND:

FOR EVERY STOCK THE PLAYER MUST GIVE 100% TO THE MASTER HAND

So if MH reaches 400% the opponent wins the match.


It's really not that hard guys.

In MH dittos, the first to reach 400% loses.

I've actually been playing that with my friends a couple of times....

MH RARELY wins, but with that 400% rule he is considered a character - just a terrible one.


Like Kirby.



Teams would never work.

Unless ONE player from both sides picked MH.

Then it would be like a 1v1 - except each character has an MH to back them up.

Which can't aim where it attacks.

Yep.

I honestly don't see the point in giving the 100 damage per stock rule, if he needs that, he should just be banned.

(Which is currently my contention).



In teams, there's a concern that he'd actually be OP, but that needs testing, still it's impossible for two players to control master hand, you need third player port.

Non master hand team go SS and Tang on the masterhand team for all seven of the stocks of the person who's on their own, then proceed to ledge camp/ avoid MH in general for all remaining minutes.

****.

There's a good possibility that this is true and it's irrelevant.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Okay so...
Reasons to be banned:
Wastes time.
Would require his own ruleset for blindpicks.
May be OP in teams.
Must be fought much differently to normal opponents because of no knockback, etc...

Reasons to remain legal:
He is absolutely terrible.
Other communties criticize how much stuff we ban.
Might advance the MH metagame so he actually has a fighting chance (ATs, strategies, etc...)
Could bring MH fans from Brawl and 64 to play Melee (Unlikely)
Double blind pick is irrelevant because the day two people want to play as MH is the day that hell freezes over.
Tournaments should already set their time as if each match goes for the full 24 minutes, if they are running late because of a MH user, that's their fault.

Anything I missed?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Okay so...
Reasons to be banned:
Wastes time.
Would require his own ruleset for blindpicks.
May be OP in teams.
Must be fought much differently to normal opponents because of no knockback, etc...
Can only be third controller port
Crashes the game at the end of the match
Stalls inherently on a number of stages.
Random crashes
May not be available in all versions of the game.

Reasons to remain legal:
He is absolutely terrible.
Other communties criticize how much stuff we ban. Actually they seem to be in favor of the ban, I took it to Sirlin's forums and literally NOBODY was anti-ban.
Might advance the MH metagame so he actually has a fighting chance (ATs, strategies, etc...)
Could bring MH fans from Brawl and 64 to play Melee (Unlikely)
Double blind pick is irrelevant because the day two people want to play as MH is the day that hell freezes over.
Tournaments should already set their time as if each match goes for the full 24 minutes, if they are running late because of a MH user, that's their fault.

Anything I missed?

Edited for truth.


Cons outweigh the pros.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wtf they say we shouldn't ban junk and they argee. But till like 400% and MH loses that's uber fair and it also lets master hand get more out of his gun and he can land more hits because they also have to attack.

 

[adumbrodeus]

wtf they say we shouldn't ban junk and they argee. But till like 400% and MH loses that's uber fair and it also lets master hand get more out of his gun and he can land more hits because they also have to attack.

The concern is more:

1. The fact that multiple players can't access it.

2. The fact that it's limited to 3rd player.

3. The fact that he requires a skillset completely opposite to standard play.

4. The fact that his only function is to delay for 8 minutes.

5. The fact that he crashes the game at the victory screen every time.

 

[x After Dawn x]

3. The fact that he requires a skillset completely opposite to standard play.

This is the main reason he'll never be legal in real tournament play.

Unless you're at some scrub tournament or something, but whatever.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is the main reason he'll never be legal in real tournament play.

Unless you're at some scrub tournament or something, but whatever.

I was actually surprised that they were considering that because in my experience, playing to win doesn't take that into account.


That said, I didn't expect our community to accept this since we are a rather conservative lot, and I'm actually generally surprised at our community's maturity in that some people were willing to consider it (beyond me, and I'm the lone voice in the wilderness saying that Brawl shouldn't ban DDD's infinite so I don't count, I have a history of being a maverick).


Not that it's wrong to disagree with the position (I mean even I do now), but our community has tended to put the "no" stamp on things prior to due consideration before.

 

[Taylor-Corn]

this is old isnt it

 

[Taylor-Corn]

marth is 3 i think in the new one. also mewtoo went wayyyyy up. Thank u taj

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The concern is more:

1. The fact that multiple players can't access it.
Not really an issue, I doubt 2 people would want to play as MH

2. The fact that it's limited to 3rd player.
...This matters why?

3. The fact that he requires a skillset completely opposite to standard play.
...This matters why? Playing against Fox compared to Marth requires different skills.

4. The fact that his only function is to delay for 8 minutes.
Like I said earlier, this shouldn't be an issue. When you go into a torunament you should always expect to play 24mins per match, and the TO should organise for that as well.

5. The fact that he crashes the game at the victory screen every time.
This is probably your strongest point, just L+A+R+Start right before time is up.

I see that banning him makes sense, but what's the point? It would just get rid of something that would never be used by anyone ever.

Like it says here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
"A bug that gives players a small advantage does not warrant a ban."

I take this as also meaning "A bug that does anything insignificant does not warrant a ban".

 

[gnosis]

Picking MH is basically throwing the match while also forcing your opponent to sit down with you and endure your little stunt for 16 minutes. It's harassment, not competition.

edit: and yeah maybe that's not a reason for a ban but really i just hate the idea of someone picking MH

 

[adumbrodeus]

I see that banning him makes sense, but what's the point? It would just get rid of something that would never be used by anyone ever.

Like it says here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
"A bug that gives players a small advantage does not warrant a ban."

I take this as also meaning "A bug that does anything insignificant does not warrant a ban".

Take a look at the section entitled "immediately banworthy glitches".

 

[JPOBS]

"It is reasonable to ban such a tactic, even if it’s not overly powerful, just on the basis that all players do not have equal access to it. "

from the sirlin link.

only player 3 can control MH so.
/discussion

 

[KAOSTAR]

Amen-cannot be killed lol

 

[theunabletable]

The concern is more:

1. The fact that multiple players can't access it.

2. The fact that it's limited to 3rd player.

3. The fact that he requires a skillset completely opposite to standard play.

4. The fact that his only function is to delay for 8 minutes.

5. The fact that he crashes the game at the victory screen every time.

1. Multiple players CAN access it, only one can control it, however.

2. Okay, then, RPS for the controller slot; if you don't get 3rd player slot don't pick MH (controller slots are agreed upon before character selection usually, right?).

3. So?

4. So?

5. Only legit reason, and couldn't you jut LRAStart at the very end of the match?

only player 3 can control MH so.

ANYONE can select him. You cannot control it, and if you didn't get 3rd player slot, don't pick him.

You'd be a fool to pick him if you haven't gotten 3rd player slot and it'd be your fault for auto losing the match.

 

[adumbrodeus]

1. Multiple players CAN access it, only one can control it, however.

The glitch is defined as a player-controlled master hand. Only the third slot can access it.


By the same token the third slot doesn't have the ability to perform a glitch to spawn non-player controlled master hands.

2. Okay, then, RPS for the controller slot; if you don't get 3rd player slot don't pick MH (controller slots are agreed upon before character selection usually, right?).

3. So?

4. So?

I agree there.

5. Only legit reason, and couldn't you jut LRAStart at the very end of the match?

No you can't because the only way to win against him is to time him out while he's at higher percent.

You'd be a fool to pick him if you haven't gotten 3rd player slot and it'd be your fault for auto losing the match.

In general you're a fool for picking master hand, it's an auto-loss against any competent player.

 

[victra♥]

lol. I cannot believe this is being discussed right now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

lol. I cannot believe this is being discussed right now.

Why?


It's a legitimate discussion, and as offlandish as he sounds, technically he's boarderline.


So, it only SOUNDS like an off-landish discussion, the reality is it isn't.