Official MBR Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby can also easily avoid attacks so I don't get what you're getting at. Kirby actually eliminates a lot of characters' options by just holding down.

By "get in better", I mean he can get close to people. I didn't say anything about him actually doing anything once he's there.

My issue with Kirby and the only reason I think he might be worse than Pichu is more characters can say "I don't want you to ever be close to me" and actually make it so. Whereas Pichu can get close to them. I think if people let Kirby near him as much as they let Pichu near him then Kirby is much, much better than Pichu but since that's not the case Kirby might be the worst.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yeah you have a point kirby can't even chase them. kirby just seems fun to just fair with marth, but yeah at least people have an idea of how to deal with that a LITTLE bit by camping them kindof smart. Sorry about thinking the wrong thing but it helps approach pichu can easily slip in sometimes. Hey dude we need to argee to something because if we don't we will countuie doing this till something huge pops up(which I doubt)

So man I don't think pichu is worse for his movement and a few small details like better throws. Just PM me or I will pm you because other wise we are wasteing everyones time. No one but us care so yeah I will listen I argee with a lot that you have said like the ducks.

 

[john!]

I support the inclusion of Master Hand and his clone, Crazy Hand. I feel they bring a refreshing new perspective to the metagame. For the same reasons, I also support the inclusion of my secondaries, Female Wire Frame and Sandbag. Both characters have oceans of untapped potential.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You cant spot dodge Lasers. They are continuous.

Beaten by the mighty AT, "don't be close".


The only other attack spot-dodge doesn't beat is when he spins onto the ground which is beaten by *gasp* a roll.

You cant use master hand in tourney because he is only accessible through a glitch. You dont actually select him as a character.

Most of melee's techniques are based on glitches and exploits, the fact that something is a glitch doesn't invalidate it's use, developers intent is irrelevant.

How can you argue for master hand to be a playable character, yet discussing strategies for beating him are irrelevant.

Because it's like discussing strategies for beating a quadriplegic in a fist-fight, if you have any semblance of a brain, you win.

I put this on everything, if somebody tried to pick master hand against me I would unplug their controller and tell the TO they are stalling.

"Delay of game" =/= stalling, wasting time regardless of winning or losing is delay of game. Wasting time in a manner that makes you invincible so you can win by percent is stalling.


Granted, he has stall potential, but it's pretty much never gonna happen in a tournament, and anyone that it works against should be ashamed.

Its dumb, and a waste of time. If ppl are going to pick MH they shouldnt even come. Id rather just have a bye and not have to waste 8 minutes everytime some adolescent thinks he's a smartass.

Yes, but it's dumb on their part.

Honestly, you should come in expecting that you might have to use 8 minutes each match, and it's not like it's a draining experience.

If they wanna act like it's a prank, fine, but they handed you a win so call it a day.


I honestly see no reason to be aggravated over it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

whAT? Melee's advanced techs are based off of glitches? Ummm which ones? not DDing, wding, SHFFL, DJC, pc chirs edge hog, egg stuff from yoshi, super wavedash, bomb jumping, shine jcs, shine in gereral really dude the omly one I know about are m2's side-B on battlefield and a few ice climber ones like stand on a platform fall though and down-B the sec you land and nana will teleport to the top.

 

[Tamoo]

glitches and exploits are regularly confused with eachother

 

[adumbrodeus]

whAT? Melee's advanced techs are based off of glitches? Ummm which ones? not DDing, wding, SHFFL, DJC, pc chirs edge hog, egg stuff from yoshi, super wavedash, bomb jumping, shine jcs, shine in gereral really dude the omly one I know about are m2's side-B on battlefield and a few ice climber ones like stand on a platform fall though and down-B the sec you land and nana will teleport to the top.

Glitches AND exploits. Most of those are exploits, but I said glitches and exploits because neither is developer intended, but we say "**** developer intent" and just do it.


Anyway, JC grabbing, Boost grabbing, and Ness' jackets. The first is extremely important, the second, not so much but certainly useful, and the third is useful if you can start it. That's what I can think of ATM.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You are completely wrong!

Whether MH is a glitch or exploit or whatever. The fact is that you never actually select him so he cant be used. You must select your character before the stage is selected and with master hand you dont pick anyone. He is just controllable.

The point is, you must be trash at melee if you are looking for free master hand wins. I wouldnt be looking for 8 minute matches because they rarely happen. with MH its almost guaranteed.

Im done with this subject. Its bs on your part because you cant back up your points, you only try to create new ones to support your position when your supports were weak in the first place.

*ignore list*

 

[adumbrodeus]

You are completely wrong!

Whether MH is a glitch or exploit or whatever. The fact is that you never actually select him so he cant be used. You must select your character before the stage is selected and with master hand you dont pick anyone. He is just controllable.

The point is, you must be trash at melee if you are looking for free master hand wins. I wouldnt be looking for 8 minute matches because they rarely happen. with MH its almost guaranteed.

Im done with this subject. Its bs on your part because you cant back up your points, you only try to create new ones to support your position when your supports were weak in the first place.

*ignore list*

Why is the fact that the character select screen doesn't have him relevant? That only displays developer intent, a concept any competitive totally ignores cause let's face it, the game that the developer envisioned is pretty much never as good as what we get.



Regardless, I'm not LOOKING for free master hand wins, I just don't care. What matters is that the victory screen shows me, and if you feel like pulling a "prank" and wasting your entrance fee on it, I don't mind.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

He is just trying to add a new legit chartcer I understand why he wants master hand to be playable it's a new metagame to be tapped maybe master hand has techs that we don't know. Plus you have to admit that master being playable it makes people want to try him/ melee out.

But masterhand would need his own rule set for him to be legit because if you did normal matches well he is broken. You should make a thread about makeing master tourment legit also he can attack a little faster if you buffer his attacks.

 

[adumbrodeus]

He is just trying to add a new legit chartcer I understand why he wants master hand to be playable it's a new metagame to be tapped maybe master hand has techs that we don't know. Plus you have to admit that master being playable it makes people want to try him/ melee out.

But masterhand would need his own rule set for him to be legit because if you did normal matches well he is broken. You should make a thread about makeing master tourment legit also he can attack a little faster if you buffer his attacks.

No, you actually don't understand.

Here's why I think he should be included.


Unless a strategy comes out that proves him broken, I see no reason to baby players and prevent them from using an auto-lose character.


At the same time, you're winning if you're patient, what's the incentive to not be patient?


Pretty much the only thing we would need to add is a coin toss rule of some sort in case *gasp* two players wanna play master hand. And if we're using stage striking, they have to announce it then pick a random character for stage striking purposes (then you return to the character screen so the glitch may be performed).



And it's not like tons of other fighters don't have characters selectable through some bizarre method on the character select screen, (ex. epyon Gundam Wing Endless Duel), and generally it's the final boss that gets this treatment, they're not presumed banned. In other words, even though this is almost definitely a glitch, this is actually extremely ordinary and has a history of occurring in other fighting games.



So, my feelings on this can be summarized as one word, "meh". Why bother to ban Master hand, it's about as threatening to competitive play as a 3 week old kitten is to the United States Army.



Edit: Thinking about it more, he might be broken in teams, perfect stock tank, can be setup with very easily, disrupts edguarding attempts. On the other hand, the lead time, and your attacks cover so much area so your partner is in the line of fire as well. But it can also disrupt very well. THIS NEEDS TESTING! Oh, and don't forget, 1 live vs 1 live means he wins.

 

[Cosmo!]

So, my feelings on this can be summarized as one word, "meh". Why bother to ban Master hand, it's about as threatening to competitive play as a 3 week old kitten is to the United States Army.

A glitched character that cannot be killed, and the most viable strategy against him is to plank him for 8 minutes.

Nobody gives a shit dude, give it up.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Bro DUmbDumb
how is the fact that you have to devise a new rules set just for him not considered broken.

We play stock matches-The fact that he cant be killed should be enough. I tried to go with the subtle reason for amusement but dam.

I hold smash debaters in a lower regard because of you.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A glitched character that cannot be killed, and the most viable strategy against him is to plank him for 8 minutes.

Nobody gives a sh** dude, give it up.

Meh

I don't really care that much, I'd just like to see if there really is a good reason (from the competitive gaming theory standpoint) as opposed to, "it's useless, and annoying and accomplishes nothing except wasting 7/8 minutes of my life that could be better spent on peach dittos".



So again, whatever, I don't care if every TO specifically bans him, though I do find it ironic that it's a ban on the worst character in the game by far.

Spoiler

Don't wanna get hit with a censor dodge infraction, sorry about the edit

@Bro DUmbDumb
how is the fact that you have to devise a new rules set just for him not considered broken.

We play stock matches-The fact that he cant be killed should be enough. I tried to go with the subtle reason for amusement but dam.

I hold smash debaters in a lower regard because of you.

Why do we have to devise a new ruleset?

Beyond some a few consideration (aka, something if two players want MH), he falls under the "timer runs out, winner determined by stock and then percent" rule.



Regardless, am I not doing precisely what a debaters is supposed to do, challenge ideas? Honestly your practical reasoning is "I don't wanna camp for 8 minutes" and I see nothing wrong with camping for 8 minutes.

 

[hungrybox]

M2K's posts remind me that I'm actually not that talented at melee...

 

[TresChikon]

The fact is that you never actually select him so he cant be used.

You don't actually select Sheik.

/troll

*runs away*

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lmao you guys are getting trolled so hard over this master hand thing


/popcorn

 

[Divinokage]

M2K's posts remind me that I'm actually not that talented at melee...

Ya but you outclassed him in a true battle, that's enough isn't it? =P

 

[KAOSTAR]

You don't actually select Sheik.

/troll

*runs away*

Sheik wouldnt be considered broken, and you select zelda its just a trick of zeldas to use her down B at the start of the match.

Master hand you havent selected anybody.


@brodumb-seriously-just because master hand is beatable by camping for 8 minutes, doesnt mean its legit to choose him at all. You CANNOT KILL HIM. I think thats considered broken.Whether or not he is easy to beat is irrellevant. Do you kno how much other gaming communities would laugh if they thought ppl were seriously considering master hand as a tournament legal character.

Not being able to lose a stock is an unfair advantage. Each player can win the match by time out or stocks. Master hand can only be beaten one of those ways.

I cant see how you can think like this. and if any rules must be changed for MH then thats enough to say **** em. Im ok with camping for 8 minutes. but thats because of my inability to kill my opponent. MH is unable to be killed. Its a 1 way street. He can kill me but I cant kill him.

Your an idiot if you dont agree with me lol.

 

[N64]

i'm actually with adumbrodeus on this.

At the competative level, MH is the worst character in the game. The only rule you have to change to not make him broken against some chars is ban corneria (and even then he loses the set anyhow, though i don't really feel like defending that line) which is banned on the new mbr ruleset anyhow.

Pretty much all the other arguments have been stated already. I'd rather play a MH played by a competant player than a insert-any-other-char-here by a competant player. Autowin yay.

 

[null55]

M2K's posts remind me that I'm actually not that talented at melee...

jiggs has enough talent for everyone

 

[ThatAintTripping]

I cant see how you can think like this. and if any rules must be changed for MH then thats enough to say **** em.

Metaknight in Brawl, lolol.

Also, for Melee comparison, we've banned numerous stages more or less because Fox is ****ing imba on them. I'm not talking about Corneria in the latest ruleset; I'm talking about Peach's Castle, Yoshi's Island (Pipes), etc. So individual characters CAN affect the ruleset. But Master Hand is ridiculous...

Beyond some a few consideration (aka, something if two players want MH), he falls under the "timer runs out, winner determined by stock and then percent" rule.

So it's not significant that you can't do a ditto with this "character?" The fact that you can't double blind pick a ditto with him is important. Indeed, double blind is a staple of the Melee ruleset, and the freedom to select characters, regardless of whether it's a ditto, should exist invariably in any competitive fighter.

Also, the fact that he LITERALLY CANNOT lose a stock changes the game too drastically, not unlike some banned stages. Hyrule Temple is banned because, if it were allowed, the game would devolve into a Fox laserfest (or, if not that, people playing very sub-optimally). Just like if someone is forced to play against...Master Hand.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Only rule that needs to be added for Master Hand: You get one chance to get to the stage select screen after "choosing him". If you accidentally go back or go to the name select screen, you forfeit that game.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I seriously tried to consider this MH thing.

I had my friend come over and I said Im going to **** you with master hand.

It took me like 5 minutes just to get him. I think thats excessive stalling.


Also when I won, the game never finished, it always froze

Stages arent that big of a rule change. Everything is the same except where you play.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

the sets would take at least 16 minutes which is beyong retarted that's 2 matches i've seen 3 puff dittos in a row that took less time. I still think MH should be hit till ___% and then you win because it will save a lot of time MH may get some hits and people won't be like MH is broken as H***. But if they didn't change it to hit MH till ___% MH would just hold down the lasers on poke floats till he won and talk to someone about the match.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Guys this is the Tier List thread not the ruling thread. It isn't a matter of "MH should be banned because..." or whatever, the truth of the matter is he ISN'T banned, there is no ruling to say so. Find me a ruling which says "You can only choose characters on the select screen" and I'll be satisfied. He is playable, it is possible for you toe ncounetr him in a tourney and as such, he deserves a place on the tier list.

Also, to support him not being banned (like I said though, irrelevant) MH fans from Brawl and 64 could play Melee just for the chance to play as him. He isn't broken in the slightest, so what if you can't take a stock off him, that doesn't make him any better, you just need to know how to play against him like every other character. He doesn't have any rulings which explicitly say that he can't be used, and the only ruling you'd have to make up is in the rare case of 2 players wanting to play as him.

Looks like your argument *puts on sunglasses* just got screwed.

 

[otg]

If someone is dumb enough to choose master hand, that is their problem

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nice to know some people agree with me on this, if somebody is dumb enough to pick master hand, their problem. Nice and succinct. They'll never win a set with master hand.


Even on pokefloats, the lasers are predictable enough that I doubt we'll see him winning with them.

@brodumb-seriously-just because master hand is beatable by camping for 8 minutes, doesnt mean its legit to choose him at all. You CANNOT KILL HIM. I think thats considered broken.Whether or not he is easy to beat is irrellevant. Do you kno how much other gaming communities would laugh if they thought ppl were seriously considering master hand as a tournament legal character.

Not being able to lose a stock is an unfair advantage. Each player can win the match by time out or stocks. Master hand can only be beaten one of those ways.

I cant see how you can think like this. and if any rules must be changed for MH then thats enough to say **** em. Im ok with camping for 8 minutes. but thats because of my inability to kill my opponent. MH is unable to be killed. Its a 1 way street. He can kill me but I cant kill him.

Your an idiot if you dont agree with me lol.

You see, I would agree if he weren't a completely pathetic character, if he actually had a legitimate shot of getting 4 stocks against anyone with any skill, I'd say inability to lose a stock is an unfair advantage, but under the current rules, he loses every MU 0-100, he's at such an unfair disadvantage I see no reason to withhold this unfair advantage.


As far as other communities, honestly I don't think so, most other fighting communities are a lot more hesitant to ban then we are, and tend to follow Sirlin's criteria to the letter. Most think we're ban-happy, and they'd actually be more likely to think that we're stupid for banning him, personally I'm an SRK regular (I recently got into SF4 as a Sagat) and an occasional on Sirlin's forum, so I'll bring it up on Sirlin's forum, see what the consensus is there.

So it's not significant that you can't do a ditto with this "character?" The fact that you can't double blind pick a ditto with him is important. Indeed, double blind is a staple of the Melee ruleset, and the freedom to select characters, regardless of whether it's a ditto, should exist invariably in any competitive fighter.

Also, the fact that he LITERALLY CANNOT lose a stock changes the game too drastically, not unlike some banned stages. Hyrule Temple is banned because, if it were allowed, the game would devolve into a Fox laserfest (or, if not that, people playing very sub-optimally). Just like if someone is forced to play against...Master Hand.

The ditto is probably the most legitimate argument from the theoretical standpoint. Still, I don't think it's quite enough.


The fact that he can't lose a stock, I would say that it did, if our rules didn't already cover it, he loses by percent.


As for Hyrule, it's banned because of circle-camping, I laser you once then run away for 7/8 minutes and I win, nothing you can do.

 

[bobson]

I'm really interested in how Master Hand would work in teams.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Some things I would say shouldn't be banned like brinstar depths it's fair enough. But the reason stages are banned a lot is because it only helps ___ at times and no one esle uses it like JJ or pokefloats.

cause in mind someone could pick MH and holf the lasers for 8 minutes on poke floats that's really hard to deal with sds happen enough at poke floats add in MH's lasers it won't be easy to avoid everything.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm really interested in how Master Hand would work in teams.

Brought it up before actually, I'm rather concerned that in teams he could be broken good because he's an insane stock tank, his haymakers are disruptive towards comboing the ally, he can take advantage of set-ups rather well, and if you ever have fewer lives on your team then the MH player has himself, you lose.


Thankfully, he doesn't seem to work well with jiggs (currently the best teams character), though I'd love to see what hungrybox or mango had to say about exploiting their teamwork.

Some things I would say shouldn't be banned like brinstar depths it's fair enough. But the reason stages are banned a lot is because it only helps ___ at times and no one esle uses it like JJ or pokefloats.

cause in mind someone could pick MH and holf the lasers for 8 minutes on poke floats that's really hard to deal with sds happen enough at poke floats add in MH's lasers it won't be easy to avoid everything.

Honestly, if you're SDing against the most predictable character in the game, you need to learn the stage better.

Also, Pokefloats was just banned, so I don't think it's relevant.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

YES IN YOUR FACE WORLD HAHAHA. To bad they also messed with other stages.MH is good on rainbow laser camp when they are below you trying ot go up. They will get hit every now and then

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Guys, like I already said. It's not about the banning, it's about his inclusion int eh tier list. He isn't banned, and I think it is pretty obvious he isn't nearly broken enough to warrant it, and he doesn't overly disrupt gameplay IMO.

 

[hungrybox]

I come into this thread and I see people are considering adding Master Hand as a playable character.

*starts raining*

 

[Leacero]

I come into this thread and I see people are considering adding Master Hand as a playable character.

*starts raining*

This is hilarious.

/thread

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I come into this thread and I see people are considering adding Master Hand as a playable character.

*starts raining*

What is there to consider? He is a playable character.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I come into this thread and I see people are considering adding Master Hand as a playable character.

*starts raining*

He's already playable.

This is hilarious.

/thread

Are you stalking me?

Also, we must smash asap.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Master Hand being a *legal* character has to be the most ****ing ******** topic / suggestion to even consider.

 

[Mew2King]

i say make him legal, with stalling being banned

just cuz it'd be AWESOME

btw he's bottom tier

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Master Hand being a *legal* character has to be the most ****ing ******** topic / suggestion to even consider.

Thank you for that very productive statment. I'm sure that adds a lot to the discussion of wether he should be on the tier list or not. I really liked how you didn't support your statement at all, and it was a nice touch to add emphasis to your non-existant argument via unnecessary swearing.

@M2K
What do you mean by "with stalling being banned", when is stalling not banned? And how can Masterhand stall effectivley?

Also, if Masterhand is added to the tier list I think it should be under the name "Masterhand" instead of "Master Hand" because that is what the game calls him XD.