Official MBR Tier List

[x After Dawn x]

last time I heard, pikachu was roughly even with jiggs. then you compare pikachu to sheik / marth and there's no comparison of the difficulty of the matchup compared to how jigglypuff has it.

 

[Mogwai]

last time I heard, pikachu was roughly even with jiggs. then you compare pikachu to sheik / marth and there's no comparison of the difficulty of the matchup compared to how jigglypuff has it.

Pikachu mains assure me that Jiggs beats Pikachu. I've come to believe it cause Pikachu has no reliable way to hit Jiggs besides uair which leads to nothing or close to nothing all game, while Jiggs gets bairs/fairs that are actually relevant. If Pikachu had a reliable setup to usmash, it might be a different story, but as is, it's pretty dicey.

I'd post other stuff about how Sheik and Jiggs are clearly better than Marth, but w/e, I don't wanna beat a dead horse, I've already spent too much time arguing in this thread. Peace.

 

[Stevo]

hypothetically, if fox, marth, and falco absolutely ***** sheik, like a 10:1 ratio, would sheik still deserve being top tier? You couldnt play her in tournament much, because some of the most used characters destroy her.

I guess what I'm getting at, is regardless of how "good" a character is, they cannot be placed in high tier simply for that reason. As far as I know, Sheik hasnt placed high in tourneys here in north america for quite a while now.

I'm not saying she should be moved down (at least not yet) but i think people should be open to the possibility of it. We'll see what happens at Pound 4.

 

[TheManaLord]

Jiggs has been winning tournaments since Pound 3. Even before then, like at Evo Worlds and other big tournaments Mango has been placing and causing upsets (m2k at evo world). Since then Mango has been winning consistently with Falco and using Puff when his Falco doesn't cut it, or for better matchups. Hungrybox is a break out player with Puff, taking over very very fast. Genesis had a ton of puff, darc showed his NE puff skills and even a lesser known florida puff made top ranking. Dr PP broke out in 2009 showing an absolute huge strides forward with Falco.

How is fox, and how has he ever been considered the best when no professional has placed first consistently at tournaments using him?

There are MATCHUP based tier list and there are RELEVANT tournament tier lists.

Since tournaments are still frequent, there is an authoritative group making rulesets and defining standards, and a community foundations (SWF) it makes the most sense to use a tier list that reflects how it actually is at tournament level play.

Puff is top tier and falco is top tier. Everyone today is very knowledgable about DI and gameplay mechanics. There are practically no scrubs or noobs, ever since Brawl, coming into the community aimlessly and blind. Everyone knows a lot about the game and how to play, they've been watching videos and kept up to date on every single new thing for YEARS. This is one of the most exposed small community of any fighter... how the game is played today is truly showing what characters are cut to play in tournaments and what aren't. The tier list HAS to be changed to reflect this.

 

[scorekid100]

I don't even use lasers until i've got the first hit in close combat, my friends whine if i spam them and level 9's reflect them every time so i've learnt to just shoot if they are airbourne or i combo them too far away and finish it off with a quick flurry. Or if i'm just out of tipper range and pester martha.

Also don't insult my country, i'm a newb some of these players are legit.

I challenge you to find me a bowser... doing well against a pro respected falco.

Then we'll call it a day.

DJ Nintendo.

 

[john!]

Jiggs has been winning tournaments since Pound 3. Even before then, like at Evo Worlds and other big tournaments Mango has been placing and causing upsets (m2k at evo world). Since then Mango has been winning consistently with Falco and using Puff when his Falco doesn't cut it, or for better matchups. Hungrybox is a break out player with Puff, taking over very very fast. Genesis had a ton of puff, darc showed his NE puff skills and even a lesser known florida puff made top ranking. Dr PP broke out in 2009 showing an absolute huge strides forward with Falco.

How is fox, and how has he ever been considered the best when no professional has placed first consistently at tournaments using him?

There are MATCHUP based tier list and there are RELEVANT tournament tier lists.

Since tournaments are still frequent, there is an authoritative group making rulesets and defining standards, and a community foundations (SWF) it makes the most sense to use a tier list that reflects how it actually is at tournament level play.

Puff is top tier and falco is top tier. Everyone today is very knowledgable about DI and gameplay mechanics. There are practically no scrubs or noobs, ever since Brawl, coming into the community aimlessly and blind. Everyone knows a lot about the game and how to play, they've been watching videos and kept up to date on every single new thing for YEARS. This is one of the most exposed small community of any fighter... how the game is played today is truly showing what characters are cut to play in tournaments and what aren't. The tier list HAS to be changed to reflect this.

I made some posts about this a while back. I agree. At mid levels of play, Fox, Marth, and Sheik dominate... but the tier list reflects the top level, where Puff and Falco are supreme.

 

[Fletch]

Kind of off what John9blue is saying and some of the others, I do think Falco has a good shot or should at least be considered to be the best character over Fox. Jiggs I think is at least top tier, but as for the best character or above the likes of Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth, I don't think she's quite there due to some of her matchups.

 

[x After Dawn x]

fox is still a better character than falco even in singles. and in doubles, falco sucks.

 

[Charlesz]

Lol at people trying to remove sheik from the top tier list. Sheik is a monster who ***** low tiers except luigi and has relatively even matchups with the spacies ( spacies have slight advantage ) and IC's are the only character that sheik really has trouble with.

 

[St. Viers]

@charlesz. I agree. I did that because although he still is a great character, it seems that the game has evolved around her, and she isn't living up to her top tier potential.

 

[edgeluca]

I predict:

Fox
Falco
Marth
Jigglypuff

Shiek
Peach
Falcon

I can't see sheik being that low. She's probably 1st-3rd.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff

 

[xbombr]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff

I think Marth should be above Sheik, but otherwise it looks good.

 

[Fletch]

fox is still a better character than falco even in singles. and in doubles, falco sucks.

Why? I can see your argument for doubles, but in singles there are a ridiculous amount of top level Falcos placing right now versus how many top Foxes? When is the last time a Fox won a major tournament?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Why? I can see your argument for doubles, but in singles there are a ridiculous amount of top level Falcos placing right now versus how many top Foxes? When is the last time a Fox won a major tournament?

look at smaller tournaments; foxes are still doing well. and besides that, even though you might not see a fox taking first place, there are still plenty of fox players in, say, the top 32 of a tournament. for top falcos, there's mango, zhu, shiz, chops, pp; foxes, there's still mango, jman, shiz, zhu, cactuar, eggm, lucky, sw, eggz, etc. although I will admit shiz and zhu use falco more than fox, there are still some good fox players, and when you talk about character potential, it becomes evident that fox > falco.

 

[Fletch]

look at smaller tournaments; foxes are still doing well. and besides that, even though you might not see a fox taking first place, there are still plenty of fox players in, say, the top 32 of a tournament. for top falcos, there's mango, zhu, shiz, chops, pp; foxes, there's still mango, jman, shiz, zhu, cactuar, eggm, lucky, sw, eggz, etc. although I will admit shiz and zhu use falco more than fox, there are still some good fox players, and when you talk about character potential, it becomes evident that fox > falco.

Exactly, I'm not arguing about that at all. At the top level, Falco just seems to be a more consistent character. And as you said, the best Foxes you really mentioned usually play Falco when it counts or at least have a better Falco. Also, the Falcos you named are in another league relative to the Foxes in both talent and tournament placings barring maybe Jman.

 

[x After Dawn x]

even in non smaller tournaments, look at national top level tourneys...5/9 of the top 9 at rom2 were fox, and only 2/9 were falco. 6/9 if you count mango, who can also play fox (not too sure if he did, though).

 

[john!]

Exactly, I'm not arguing about that at all. At the top level, Falco just seems to be a more consistent character. And as you said, the best Foxes you really mentioned usually play Falco when it counts or at least have a better Falco. Also, the Falcos you named are in another league relative to the Foxes in both talent and tournament placings barring maybe Jman.

...which is the perennial problem with threads like this and the matchup chart. People think about their personal experiences from small regional tournaments and believe that is how the game is played at the top level. It's not! This game is just too complex to make a full list of advantages one character has over another character. No matter how much you know or how many YouTube videos you've watched, you aren't thinking at the level of a top professional, because if you were, you'd BE a top professional, and even they have bias based on their experiences and who they regularly face. You've gotta take an empirical approach when forming a tier list. Right now Puff, Falco, and Fox are dominating national tourneys. Therefore they are the best characters in the game.

I hope that the next tier list is based heavily on the results of Pound 4 and other national tourneys.

 

[Fletch]

Genesis Results:

1. Mango - Jigglypuff/Falco
2. Armada - Peach
3. Hungrybox - Jigglypuff
4. Zhu - Falco/Fox
5. Mew2King - Marth/Sheik
6. Scar - Falcon
7. Darkrain - Falcon
8. Hax - Falcon
9 Pink Shinobi - Peach
9 Raistlin - Jigglypuff
9 Lambchops - Falco
9 Dashizwiz - Falco/Fox
13 Vwins - Peach
13 Tope - Sheik
13 Jman - Fox
13 Darc - Jigglypuff

One Fox main in the top 16 at the biggest tournament this year with the best overall talent. This might indicate he is not the best overall character any more.

 

[x After Dawn x]

that's one tournament. you're forgetting that fox places well at every other tournament. like I said, rom2 had 5/6 fox players get in the top 9th placements.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

^well i wouldn't call mango a fox, since he used pretty much all falco with a little jiggs but yeah, genesis certainly was an outlier in terms of fox placement...

 

[Virusbluemage]

that's one tournament. you're forgetting that fox places well at every other tournament. like I said, rom2 had 5/6 fox players get in the top 9th placements.

I really don't think you can compare rom2 to Genesis in any sensible way. Genesis had almost twice as many players as Rom2 and the collection of talent was far far greater. I think it supports the notion that at a high level of play Fox is great, but at the highest level of play Falco and Jiggilypuff surpass him.

 

[x After Dawn x]

A Peach also placed higher and / or beat every single other player there. Does that mean Peach is the best character in the game at high level play? No.

 

[Strong Badam]

Why? I can see your argument for doubles, but in singles there are a ridiculous amount of top level Falcos placing right now versus how many top Foxes? When is the last time a Fox won a major tournament?

this has absolutely nothing to do with the character's ability
you don't know what you're talking about
stop talking

 

[john!]

A Peach also placed higher and / or beat every single other player there. Does that mean Peach is the best character in the game at high level play? No.

Why not? Serious question. If Armada wins Pound 4 and beats the other top pros, why would Peach not be the best character in the game?

this has absolutely nothing to do with the character's ability
you don't know what you're talking about
stop talking

Yes it does. It's a fairly accurate indicator of a character's ability.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Because characters are based on character potential and not tournament placement?

I don't care if Armada wins Pound 4 with Pichu, that doesn't stop Pichu from being a horrible character. Obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the point.

 

[john!]

Because characters are based on character potential and not tournament placement?

My point is that tournament placement will reflect what we know about a character's potential within human capacity, which is exactly what the tier list measures.

What if I said (as Magus did) that Bowser is the best character because he has that invincible ledge-stall? He has the tools to beat everybody. How would you respond? "Nobody places well with Bowser, so he's bad". But people are placing better with Puff than any other character, and you think she's fifth best. So why do you draw a line between theorizing for answers and looking at reality/results for answers?

We shouldn't be theorizing in the first place. Not only is it unreliable, it invites all kinds of arguments. The tier list shouldn't be decided by the most vocal members of the SBR, or the loudest members of the community... it should be decided by Mango, Hbox, Armada, Kage, PP, and others who are proving without doubt how amazing their characters are.

I don't care if Armada wins Pound 4 with Pichu, that doesn't stop Pichu from being a horrible character. Obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the point.

Well yeah, it does. It means that Pichu is a phenomenal character that only one person can use correctly.

I can't sleep...

 

[Inaphyt]

I predict:

Fox
Falco
Marth
Jigglypuff

Shiek
Peach
Falcon

Why do you predict? This is the last melee tier list right.

Whether you like it or not it's not changing lol.

It's hard to call who's the best character considering at top levels of play both players have lost sets (most of the time) which means potentially any character in Top or High can win at huge tournaments.

 

[Tamoo]

Umbreon has hinted at a potential new list

 

[adumbrodeus]

My point is that tournament placement will reflect what we know about a character's potential within human capacity, which is exactly what the tier list measures.

Except we don't always have players that match up to their character's potential.

What if I said (as Magus did) that Bowser is the best character because he has that invincible ledge-stall? He has the tools to beat everybody. How would you respond? "Nobody places well with Bowser, so he's bad". But people are placing better with Puff than any other character, and you think she's fifth best. So why do you draw a line between theorizing for answers and looking at reality/results for answers?

As I understand, Bowser is third-best under FRAME-PERFECT conditions, he's not the only character who can invincibly ledge-stall.

The thing is, when you account for human reaction time (8 frames at the top of the metagame) as well as mindgames potential (how likely it is to predict your opponent in a given situation due to the spread of options that you both have, and how effective those options are when successful), and a level of tech skill that is humanly possible, suddenly Bowser becomes bottom tier.

No, theory CONFIRMS bowser's position.

We shouldn't be theorizing in the first place. Not only is it unreliable, it invites all kinds of arguments. The tier list shouldn't be decided by the most vocal members of the SBR, or the loudest members of the community... it should be decided by Mango, Hbox, Armada, Kage, PP, and others who are proving without doubt how amazing their characters are.

And what happens when insane crazy guy has an epiphany and starts outplaying everyone with pichu? Or one of the mewtwo players does it? DJ nintendo perhaps with his bowser?

And then fox players come out of the woodwork and win, and then Sheik players, and then Jiggs players, on and on and on.


The thing is PLAYERS CHANGE, character ability from a theoretical standpoint doesn't. And we're dealing by too small an audience by far to even consider statistical reliability.


Are you familar with the problem of induction?


Obviously not, the reality is inductive knowledge is inherently suspect because of this exact effect, when you observe something, you can never know that a billion other contradictory observations aren't waiting to happen.


This is not the 1800s people, we've moved past these errors in methodology. With theorycraft as errors are found, we update our methodology, but if we use only tournament results, we'll never be able to get a firm grasp on the data because it's inherently unreliable, and the constant rotations in the top players illustrates that. Unless you have a way to control for player skill, your methodology is flawed at the most fundamental level and will never be accurate.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well why dont we pick either a character potential list, or a tourney viable list.

Its clear ppl are trying to argue for two diff reason. If these arent resolved nobody is gonna come close to a consensus on anything.

somebody should just make a decision and say "this is what the tier list is gonna be reflecting" or just have 2 separate lists.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

adumbrodeus I argee we shouldn't play theory, but sometimes a theory that sounds dumb works better than one would think jigglypuff startes sging bair I just ducked under like 7 in a match and didn't get punished once. That doesn't even sound doable or smart for pichu but somehow it worked.


Theory can give ideas. Crazy impossible ideas can sometimes work when it doeesn't sound doable like useing an attack to dodge another attack and to punish it. But yeah in theory no one should even hit marth.

I think sheik should still be higher than puff(not by much) because sheik basically has what 2 bad matches and 2 even ones(I could be wrong). puff has a few not so good/even matches down the list like gannon,pikachu(evenish), bowser(I would think because bowser is a tank that puff isn't really out speeding and u-B kills), marth, young link, fox. And there are other maybe of people who can go even easily puff isn't like sheik where she shuts down people automatic you can run away from puff and you have time to time about what you need.




Also thanks My way of twisting things has fueled my hype to inprove things as pichu(not trying to turn the topic to pichu because no one wants that.)

"And what happens when insane crazy guy has an epiphany and starts outplaying everyone with pichu?" Thanks even if that didn't mean anything I twiste dit to amazning news.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Low
Link 4.69
Pikachu 4.31
Young Link 4.15
Roy 3.60
Zelda 3.04
Game and Watch 3.00

Bottom
Ness 2.50
Yoshi 2.46
Bowser 2.17
Mewtwo 1.77
Kirby 1.50
Pichu 1.15

Sub Bottom
This Discussion 0.21

 

[TheManaLord]

Low
Link, Zelda, YL, Roy, G&W, M2

Bottom
Ness, Yoshi, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu

I think Pikachu deserves the jump to bottom middle. other than that the rest are alright (besides m2 going to low). reasons being, in his respective tier area, there are less combos in the gameplay. Most of it is poking for percents then landing that solid move, which in M2's case is a projectile, dsmash, or THROW which is the only reason he should be moved to low...

I don't feel the need for individual ordering in this game. It just doesn't work. I think grouping is the best. Anyone disagree with my groupings for the bottom tiers???

 

[Fletch]

this has absolutely nothing to do with the character's ability
you don't know what you're talking about
stop talking

What else do we have to judge characters on then? As has been said before, if we go only on potential, there would be three viable characters. Results show that Fox might not be the universal best any more, and I'm using this to argue that this might not be the best case. Fox is still a complete **** character, but at the very top level, he just doesn't seem to be as dominant any more. Either way though, I am not really at liberty to say Fox isn't the best at the top level, but it just seems that so few top level players main him now and that he might not be the best as previously thought. Also, telling me to stop talking doesn't prove anything.

 

[TheManaLord]

Fox is definitely nowhere near as good as people have thought since the beginning of this game.

He has always been credited to have this potential to be the best. Well, it hasn't, and never will come to fruition because it's FALSE. A once seemingly prophetic notion has been PROVEN wrong over time.

 

[Virusbluemage]

What else do we have to judge characters on then? As has been said before, if we go only on potential, there would be three viable characters. Results show that Fox might not be the universal best any more, and I'm using this to argue that this might not be the best case. Fox is still a complete **** character, but at the very top level, he just doesn't seem to be as dominant any more. Either way though, I am not really at liberty to say Fox isn't the best at the top level, but it just seems that so few top level players main him now and that he might not be the best as previously thought. Also, telling me to stop talking doesn't prove anything.

Strong Bad isn't very smart, don't take him too seriously.

And yeah I agree Fox isn't as dominanat as he used to be, no Fox players are winning major tournaments anymore and in truth they haven't in a very long time. Looking back at national tournaments (over 150 players) for the past 3 years what tournament has a fox main won? Can anyone answer this?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

If we go by grouping we ALLL basically know how the list is other than a few small things other than the people who say things like falcon for mid tier ,dk for bottom, m2 for mid and other etxreme idea placements.

Really many bottom tiers are pretty close but most people have a solid idea of what's right like ness below yoshi, bowser above kirby and other things.

Also we can all argee on somethings, like puff higher.


LOL I had epiphany just now on movement mindgames. IF my idea works I will look like A really bad player makeing mistakes but i still have my movement going on with me still in control I really need to test this vs people soon. All I know is I would have fallen for the trick i'm testing now.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I agree with the manaloards groupings. But I also agree to them as a list so I just agree.

Grouping and an ordered list are almost the same thing. If you make an ordered list consisting of tiers, you have groups AND an ordered list.

I would have said if we group then we should at least come up with a top and a bottom, but then you might as well order the 2-4 that are in between.

whats really important right now is a definition of what the tier list is suppose to represent. Its either gonna be character potential in which fox is top 4 sho or its gonna be a list based on the current cast of players potential pulled from TO placing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes it does. It's a fairly accurate indicator of a character's ability.

No, it's not. It's an accurate indicator of what characters the best players use. If Mew2King, Mango, and Armada all used Pichu and won major tournaments, that'd mean that those players are that good with Pichu. It doesn't stop Pichu from being totally ****.

I've had this argument like 80 times. Stupid people are impossible to get through to.