Official MBR Tier List

[x After Dawn x]

My point is that tournament placement will reflect what we know about a character's potential within human capacity, which is exactly what the tier list measures.

What if I said (as Magus did) that Bowser is the best character because he has that invincible ledge-stall? He has the tools to beat everybody. How would you respond? "Nobody places well with Bowser, so he's bad". But people are placing better with Puff than any other character, and you think she's fifth best. So why do you draw a line between theorizing for answers and looking at reality/results for answers?

We shouldn't be theorizing in the first place. Not only is it unreliable, it invites all kinds of arguments. The tier list shouldn't be decided by the most vocal members of the SBR, or the loudest members of the community... it should be decided by Mango, Hbox, Armada, Kage, PP, and others who are proving without doubt how amazing their characters are.



Well yeah, it does. It means that Pichu is a phenomenal character that only one person can use correctly.

I can't sleep...

k, no offense here, but strong bad is right.

mango can beast people with fox, falco, puff, sheik, even falcon. that doesn't make falcon the best character in the game.

a character that somebody knows well might be a SLIGHT indication of a character's potential, but other than that, it doesn't mean ANYTHING.

like I already said, if somebody wins pound 4 with pichu, or even kirby, it doesn't mean **** because those characters still suck and have little to no potential.

bowser doesn't have much potential. infinite ledgestall is a theoretical method of winning a match that's not even possible to perfect under limited, human conditions. you are mixing up theoretical play with character potential, which are two different things.

also, the reason the MBR exists is for the exact reason you said. people at top level play are arguing what they feel is right, not random players like us.

 

[Strong Badam]

Strong Bad isn't very smart, don't take him too seriously.

I find this hilarious coming from Virusbluemage.

 

[Virusbluemage]

k, no offense here, but strong bad is right.

mango can beast people with fox, falco, puff, sheik, even falcon. that doesn't make falcon the best character in the game.

a character that somebody knows well might be a SLIGHT indication of a character's potential, but other than that, it doesn't mean ANYTHING.

like I already said, if somebody wins pound 4 with pichu, or even kirby, it doesn't mean **** because those characters still suck and have little to no potential.

bowser doesn't have much potential. infinite ledgestall is a theoretical method of winning a match that's not even possible to perfect under limited, human conditions. you are mixing up theoretical play with character potential, which are two different things.

also, the reason the MBR exists is for the exact reason you said. people at top level play are arguing what they feel is right, not random players like us.

I get what John9blue is saying now, I have to agree that you and strong bad are using ******** logic.

If Mango wins a tournament a national tournament using Pichu then it simply means that Pichu has the potential to win major tournaments, it doesn't matter how good the actual player is, the point is that Pichu has the tools necessary to compete at top level. It's a very simple concept that I'm surprised you can't grasp, you use Pichu as an example because you think he completely sucks end of arguement, but that logic again is ********.

If character is so bad that it's incapable of competing a top level then then it would be impossible for anyone to win a national tournament with that character, contrary to your argument someone winning a national tournament with Pichu would prove that he is capable of top level play.

 

[x After Dawn x]

you use Pichu as an example because you think he completely sucks end of arguement, but that logic again is ********.

I stopped reading here.

Then again, I'm not surprised considering that's coming from the biggest troll on SWF...

 

[Virusbluemage]

I stopped reading here.

Then again, I'm not surprised considering that's coming from the biggest troll on SWF...

You shouldn't have. You should have read the whole post. I'm pretty sure I simply rewrote what John9blue was saying in words I thought you could understand. But your head is just too thick, I'm not surprised you didn't read it.

Edit: And I'm not a troll.

 

[`DNS`]

Strong Bad isn't very smart, don't take him too seriously.

And yeah I agree Fox isn't as dominanat as he used to be, no Fox players are winning major tournaments anymore and in truth they haven't in a very long time. Looking back at national tournaments (over 150 players) for the past 3 years what tournament has a fox main won? Can anyone answer this?

mango won winterfest with Fox

 

[DaisyBoo92]

vbm is pretty funny. anyways, everyone sucks other than marth and jiggs gg.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Wheretf is Marth coming from?

 

[Virusbluemage]

mango won winterfest with Fox

WTF? Dude Mango used Jiggs the entire tournament except for GFs when he used Fox. Moreover he beat Hungrybox in GFs who he already defeated using Puff in winners finals. Mango mained Puff that tournament, he used fox for fun.

Edit: Also Winterfest had less than 70 players, to call it a national tournament is a joke.

 

[St. Viers]

But your head is just too thick, I'm not surprised you didn't read it.

Edit: And I'm not a troll.

This made me laugh.

Anywho, what people need to realize is that *if* mango could win a tourney going all pichu, it would mean 1 of 3 things.

1. Mango is so much better than his opposition that the character he picks is almost irrelevent. The good thing about smash is that hypothetically, if you *knew* exactly what your opponent was going to do, you *could* beat them with a character fast enough to punish them, which pichu is.

2. Pichu is better than people give him credit for. If mango used pichu, and did things that could be replicated and used by other players to do better, it means that he found a way to better use pichu, and that it isn't as bad as people said.

3. The problem is that if it actually happened, the actual answer would be a mix of both. Mango would simply be able to use the tools pichu has currently better--no missed/whiffed grabs, no dropping combos, etc etc. And then it's up to people using pichu themselves to figure out whether they could use pichu as effectively, or whether it simply was mango's skill.

EDIT: right, because you use joke characters in the GF (without a split pot) because you like losing. wait, no, you use the character that you know you can win with. Winning the GF with fox means more than going jiggz for most of the tourney (winners finals excluded).

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

VBM had an amazing point above, if you won't listen to people when they are makeing sense when will you? If you say mango won with pichu then would have to have the tools to win. meaning he should be higher not just because mango is good.

This topic needs to move on. But if someone did win high level with pichu that means they know MORE than what most people know so they should be the one giving you their input. If I won something decently big with all pichu EVERYONE would start to believe me about pichu being higher I could easily tell what tools he has to win with and stuff. That would be proof pichu should be higher than kirby that would be undenailable.

Only reason I believe it's totally undoable is because of sheiks and to a less amount marths so they would have to have a back up chartcer.(also they would have to be to good)

 

[Virusbluemage]

This made me laugh.

Anywho, what people need to realize is that *if* mango could win a tourney going all pichu, it would mean 1 of 3 things.

1. Mango is so much better than his opposition that the character he picks is almost irrelevent. The good thing about smash is that hypothetically, if you *knew* exactly what your opponent was going to do, you *could* beat them with a character fast enough to punish them, which pichu is.

2. Pichu is better than people give him credit for. If mango used pichu, and did things that could be replicated and used by other players to do better, it means that he found a way to better use pichu, and that it isn't as bad as people said.

3. The problem is that if it actually happened, the actual answer would be a mix of both. Mango would simply be able to use the tools pichu has currently better--no missed/whiffed grabs, no dropping combos, etc etc. And then it's up to people using pichu themselves to figure out whether they could use pichu as effectively, or whether it simply was mango's skill.

EDIT: right, because you use joke characters in the GF (without a split pot) because you like losing. wait, no, you use the character that you know you can win with. Winning the GF with fox means more than going jiggz for most of the tourney (winners finals excluded).

You are missing the point, Mango knew he could beat Hbox with Jigs and he proved it 5 minutes before GFs. Mango was trying to illustrate he could beat Hbox without using his best character hence disrespecting him. Winnings GFs with a character doesn't mean as much as winning the rest of the tournament with a different character. Mango using Puff all of rom1 except Falco in GFs is a good example of that.

 

[TresChikon]

Lol, ICG, you're just biased since it's about Pichu.

Pichu's game is still stagnant and if the player places well, he is just really good at maximizing what is already known about Pichu, noone is really changing or discovering anything new in his metagame.

Unless he can apply something unknown about Pichu and use it to win, Pichu's position on the list isn't changing.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

OR uses something about pichu better like hugs. B-stick F-smashes most of the time even if we all know how to F-smash he can F-smash much better even if he doesn't know anything we know he just uses it better. So there doesn't need to a new trick just some focued.

I'm talking about post 5911 I replaced pichu with kirby and it still makes senses. It's the fact it's from VBM that people can't respect that. Everyone is dumb and predictable but don't always treat them the same way people can do good/smart things even still. I may be a pichu nut but that's not all I know about so don't think it's all about pichu, because no one cares about pichu.

 

[Dark Hart]

You are missing the point, Mango knew he could beat Hbox with Jigs and he proved it 5 minutes before GFs. Mango was trying to illustrate he could beat Hbox without using his best character hence disrespecting him. Winnings GFs with a character doesn't mean as much as winning the rest of the tournament with a different character. Mango using Puff all of rom1 except Falco in GFs is a good example of that.

I think Mango was proving that Fox beats Puff.

 

[TresChikon]

I'm not sure what a B-stick F-smash is, but I'm assuming it's a pivot F-smash.

Pivots are a form of spacing that many characters use. Samus mains use it a lot, Hugs just uses it very well.

That's a difference in player ability and not so much character ability since pivots were already available to Samus.

 

[Strong Badam]

Edit: And I'm not a troll.

I don't believe this

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol @ virusbluemage.

everyone can win by using spacing and having the necessary tech skill to do so.

Some characters have limited tools, doesnt meant they cant win-only its harder to do so with less tools. Pichu lacks range, approaches, killing power from setups, and dies easily due to being light. You can win with this, but wouldnt it be easier to win with fox, who is just the opposite.

You can win a race with a slower car, but its easier to win with a faster one.

 

[Virusbluemage]

lol @ virusbluemage.

everyone can win by using spacing and having the necessary tech skill to do so.

Some characters have limited tools, doesnt meant they cant win-only its harder to do so with less tools. Pichu lacks range, approaches, killing power from setups, and dies easily due to being light. You can win with this, but wouldnt it be easier to win with fox, who is just the opposite.

You can win a race with a slower car, but its easier to win with a faster one.

You complete misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that Pichu isn't just as much suck as everyone think he is. I was stating that if Pichu were to win a national tournament then it simply means he has been underrated and he possesses the tools necessary to compete at the top level of play.

For the sake of arguing your car analogy is dumb. A slower can't beat a faster car unless the slower car has advantages like higher acceleration, higher traction, or greater handling. And if that's the case then it may very well be easier to win with the slower car. You've kind of contradicted your argument.

 

[KAOSTAR]

My point was that slower cars can have better drivers.

such as better players using ****tier characters.

you can still win but its much harder.


Im telling you that every character has the tools to win a national tourney ALREADY. Its from the basic fundamentals of Isais dont get hit. Dont get hit and kill the other person (excluding Sding) and you will win. Its just alot harder to get hits in while not getting hit with weaker characters.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Really slow people can't(that are bottom tier). How will kirby/ bowser take on people who camp all day long they can't get hold of them or powersheild everything.

Some people don't have the tools but most people could play don't get hit but how will that work if the other person is much faster like fox or falco.

 

[nicaboy]

Lol a slower beat a faster car in theory is possible i guess. Depends if the track goes in a straight or has turns. How fast each car can reach its max speed etc. Its not that cut and dry but i know what ya mean. Anyway if someone like pichu was to win a high level tourney it doesn't mean we under estimated the character. It just means that person is good with them. We as a community are so far into the game all things related to a character meta game are basically known and all values related to each one have been reviewed. If anything certain characters may be shifted on this list but im sure we aren't under estimating anyone.Even if pichu won pound 4 he still would be consider a bad character. The player would be praised however for winning with him.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@troll virus

Really slow people can't(that are bottom tier). How will kirby/ bowser take on people who camp all day long they can't get hold of them or powersheild everything.

Some people don't have the tools but most people could play don't get hit but how will that work if the other person is much faster like fox or falco.

Whats your point? I dont even know what stance you are trying to take.

Have you forgotten we are talking about ****ty characters in the first place. Remember that the point was thats its very hard for a **** character to win, but its technically possible. Most of the time kirby and bowser are going to lose because they suck.

It doesnt matter if the other person is faster stronger better etc. The point is its still possible to win. and IF you do, that means you played better while having less tools available to you. It doesnt make the character better simply because they won.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as the car analogy. Pretend you had two cars. Car A tops at 100 mph and doesnt have a spoiler. Car B tops out at 75 mph but has a spoiler making it slightly more aerodynamic but its negligible because at that speed you dont go fast enough to need a spoiler. They both weigh (inc driver +fuel) the same and have the exact same acceleration and handling(at 75 Car be holds constant and car A holds at 100). Obviously they follow the same rules of physics as well.

Car B gets ahead of car A on the first turn and doesnt let him pass the rest of the race. He matches Car A's every move as far as speed and direction. Because Car A cannot go through Car B without making contact or risk being DQed, He must get around car B or be maxed out at whatever speed he is goin.

Car B wins, can you argue that its a better car? The answer is NO. Car A is still a better car. (even with a slight aerodynamic disadvantage, its still faster) Car B must have just been a better driver and possibly had some good luck.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I get what John9blue is saying now, I have to agree that you and strong bad are using ******** logic.

If Mango wins a tournament a national tournament using Pichu then it simply means that Pichu has the potential to win major tournaments, it doesn't matter how good the actual player is, the point is that Pichu has the tools necessary to compete at top level. It's a very simple concept that I'm surprised you can't grasp, you use Pichu as an example because you think he completely sucks end of arguement, but that logic again is ********.

If character is so bad that it's incapable of competing a top level then then it would be impossible for anyone to win a national tournament with that character, contrary to your argument someone winning a national tournament with Pichu would prove that he is capable of top level play.

But the reality is EVERY CHARACTER has the ability to win tournaments at the top level of play.

Certain characters require you to be insanely better then your opponents do do it however, pichu is one of those characters.

You complete misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that Pichu isn't just as much suck as everyone think he is. I was stating that if Pichu were to win a national tournament then it simply means he has been underrated and he possesses the tools necessary to compete at the top level of play.

For the sake of arguing your car analogy is dumb. A slower can't beat a faster car unless the slower car has advantages like higher acceleration, higher traction, or greater handling. And if that's the case then it may very well be easier to win with the slower car. You've kind of contradicted your argument.

No, he didn't misunderstand your post, he DISAGREED with it, there's a difference.

He's saying that pichu taking top placing is a reflection on an insanely skilled player because, while every character has the tools to win, certain characters have better tools then others.

That's the reality, pichu CAN win, but his tools are so much weaker compared to most of the cast that that pichu player needs to read the opponent about 3 times as well as the reverse.


Again, you guys are going off induction, and top players are too few to even be statistically significant.


And there's a great deal of technique that goes into racing (well, nascar-style anyway, street racing not so much), so a better driver in an inherent worse car will probably win.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I was talking about uber campers what will kirby/ bowser do if someone camps the holy crap out of them? there is no way they could get hold of them or chase them so what tools would they have? But other than a perfect player or an uber camper I think anyone can win vs anyone.

Yeah it's best to compare them as tools. ness is the handle of a hammer.

 

[B.Link]

at least link isn't all the way at the bottom =]

 

[TheManaLord]

VBM has always made good points. It's a shame nobody reads his posts, they are much less "troll"-like than people think.

The smash community is just really dumb and the MBR _SUCKS_.

 

[X1-12]

VBM has always made good points. It's a shame nobody reads his posts, they are much less "troll"-like than people think.

The smash community is just really dumb and the MBR _SUCKS_.

and you're both troll accounts controlled by INSANE CARZY GUY

Mwahaha

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

No if I controlled them we all know what I would make them do. They would ask questions in pichu boards and bump my pichu threads.

But really give people a break every now and then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9-3RZkzpwM amazing but it fits pretty good here. Unlike other people I listen to lairs even if they lie and I listen to idoits to get them stuck in a logic trap. Really everyone is dumb by that you shouldn't listen to anyone including yourself.

For someone to win they need the tools, they need to be able to deal with or figure out how to deal with different playstyles, I don't think kirby and bowser could because they can't deal with camping and when they get close what are they going to do? it's not like gannon where he can fair 3 times and win.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No if I controlled them we all know what I would make them do. They would ask questions in pichu boards and bump my pichu threads.

But really give people a break every now and then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9-3RZkzpwM amazing but it fits pretty good here. Unlike other people I listen to lairs even if they lie and I listen to idoits to get them stuck in a logic trap. Really everyone is dumb by that you shouldn't listen to anyone including yourself.

For someone to win they need the tools, they need to be able to deal with or figure out how to deal with different playstyles, I don't think kirby and bowser could because they can't deal with camping and when they get close what are they going to do? it's not like gannon where he can fair 3 times and win.

The thing is, there is no character that does not have the "tools" provided that there is a great enough skill gap. Sure, the characters have a great deal of difficulty doing it reliably, but with sufficiently good reading skills it is possible to defeat any character.


Honestly, that's one beautiful thing about melee, every character has a counter to literally everything that every other character can do, there are no 100-0 match-ups, the difference is a matter of reliability, and effectiveness. Bottom tiers lack reliable ways to get in without reading their opponent perfectly, have large gaps in their defenses, or simply are too vulnerable to other characters options to win reliably (ex. chaingrabs, shin combos, etc), but they CAN win, provided there's a large enough skill gap.



On a completely separate note, I think I'm gonna pick up pichu as a secondary, he's fun.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I dont think virusbluemage posts for the sake of trolling. I feel that he really believes what he is saying. The only problem is that he often leaves holes in his arguments and sometimes fails to directly respond to valid points other ppl have made. I read his posts.

When Im feelin sad and need a laugh. lol jk

@ICG-even in uber camping. You can shield or powershield projectiles and you would have to predict their jumps and landings. Its alot harder than you think to camp somebody perfectly without getting hit or caught. You would have to be at least 2-3 moves ahead of your opponent, who is also trying to read you at the same time.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yeah powersheilding is legit I powersheilded a bunch of foxes lasers in one game on the fly as pichu(uber easy to powersheild with compared to most people) But keep in mind some camping is retarted to powersheild like sheik's needles.

yeah love that about melee too. Nothing is impossible even if someone powersheilded every single attack that's still not auto win because they can still get punished for their attacks and get grabbed.

adumbrodeus- I will let you choose. I can say nothing about you playing as pichu or I can say something(maybe PM or something), because I am annoying about it. Chooses are always nice even if the answer will always be the same.

 

[john!]

There's no need to discredit my argument because people you don't like agree with it. That's just ad hominem BS. Yeah I'm going off induction because we have already created a deductive proof that says Bowser is top tier. And if we "factor in" human reaction and such, then it becomes far too complicated for anyone to agree.

No, it's not. It's an accurate indicator of what characters the best players use. If Mew2King, Mango, and Armada all used Pichu and won major tournaments, that'd mean that those players are that good with Pichu. It doesn't stop Pichu from being totally ****.

Then what if Hbox, Zhu, PP, Kage, and other top pros started maining Pichu and winning with him. Is he still total crap? Eventually you will have to accept that your preconceived bias and opinions are wrong, which of course is pretty hard for some people...

I've had this argument like 80 times. Stupid people are impossible to get through to.

This isn't convincing anyone of anything besides that you're a rude guy. I am very far from being stupid lol, in fact your need to insult people indicates you have nothing better to say. GGs.

 

[KAOSTAR]

A single large scale win by any character doesnt make them the best. From what we know right now pichu/kirby are pieces of ****.

If somehow pp, zhu, m2k, mango, shiz start winning tourneys with these characters, then it would be fair to look into the metagame of pichu and reevaluate his position on the tier list-such as ppl are doing with jigglypuff.

I agree with john thats its not out of the realm of possibility, but a single win still doesnt make him a good character. Even multiple wins dont make him a better character, there are soooo many other factors that have to be taken into account. But wins and success do warrant a possible acknowledgment of new meta.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There's no need to discredit my argument because people you don't like agree with it. That's just ad hominem BS. Yeah I'm going off induction because we have already created a deductive proof that says Bowser is top tier. And if we "factor in" human reaction and such, then it becomes far too complicated for anyone to agree.

Lol, average reaction time for gamers are about a 1/6th of a second, average reaction time for the population as a whole is 1/5 of a second, and absolute best is about 2/15th of a second.


Change that to frames and you have 10 frames, 12 frames, and 8 frames respectively.

If we have a reaction gap of that size, and we assume technical perfection beyond that (except for things not humanly possible, ex. input every other frame for an extended period), then you can apply deductive logic to all match-ups.


Other fighting games realized this a long time ago, why not melee?



Lack of agreement doesn't signal wrongness, merely improper logic or lack of information on the part of the debators. The match-ups were set in stone when the game was released and any disagreement that we have over this can be attributed to one of the two factors.



And also no, frame-perfect Bowser is the THIRD best because of the invincibility on his up-b. Pretty much everyone can invincibly ledge-stall, spacies frame 1 moves allow for them to hit in spite of perfect reaction time, thus being best able to get the first hit and then ledge-stall.


Basically this all boils down to "if you get stupid results on paper, get a better paper", when you input frame-perfect reaction time, then of course you'll get ridiculous results, it's impossible to actually react frame-perfect for humans and our metagame is not based on computer players, as my math teacher used to say, "garbage in, garbage out".

Since all logic is dependent on a proper input, we need to find a proper case to deductively deal with this, as well as a proper model.

Top of the metagame = 8 frames of reaction time? That sounds about right.

Then what if Hbox, Zhu, PP, Kage, and other top pros started maining Pichu and winning with him. Is he still total crap? Eventually you will have to accept that your preconceived bias and opinions are wrong, which of course is pretty hard for some people...

They're not biases when supported by hard evidence and deduction.

There are millions of individual cases which defy statistical notions, however the reality is you never know when billions of cases which prove it crop up. Usually they show up with scientifically valid study, but there is always that chance that it hasn't shown up.

This is the problem with all induction, but there are ways to limit it by controlling for various factors (which means separating out factors to see if relationships are correlated with other factors, for example, if you do statistics to correlate crime to ethnic group in America, there is a statistically significant correlation between being African-American and committing crimes (or at least being caught), but then when you separate it out by economic class you'll see crime rates are about the same for all races at each class).

That said, it pretty much impossible to control for skill, because the only way to prove skill is to win, which sets us back to square 1.

And then you've got the problem that top players at any given time are not a large enough group to be statistically significant and the metagame changes too much for previous top players to matter in this.



So no, the inductive reasoning you're using has just as large an issue.

 

[JHop1313]

I really think captain falcon is god tier

 

[yummynbeefy]

this metagame is still developing

this list needs revising

 

[MarioMariox2]

I really think captain falcon is god tier

If it is Isai, SS, Darkrain, MaNg0 or Scar it's done (as a deal).

In any case, the tier list can not be made by one single person's opinions/statements. A tier list is an agreement between a significant amount of competitive players in a gaming (usually fighting) community.

If Ken says, "Marth is the best character cause I'm awesome."
But M2K whips out his frame data and shows why Fox would be better...
with tourney results and is backed up by even non-Fox mains + a handful of people in the Back Room, well... I would think the out come is obvious.

So what we need to do is not explain ourselves why a character should be in such a position. We should bring out points and techniques in a character and all debate on it; pros, cons, and all included.

Though Jeff has this thing called the **** button, and he tends to press it on command. Ergo, Jeff is gamebreaking and is in S-tier. :D JK

 

[Strong Badam]

Then what if Hbox, Zhu, PP, Kage, and other top pros started maining Pichu and winning with him. Is he still total crap? Eventually you will have to accept that your preconceived bias and opinions are wrong, which of course is pretty hard for some people...

unless those players discovered several new options for Pichu and developed his metagame then yeah, maybe. players have done so in the past, but never to such an extent. Bum placed highly in many tournaments but that was because of a) match-up inexperience and b) a lower tech-skill level of spacies than presently (which makes the match-up much more difficult for DK).
they'd all have to be so good to the point where they could beat EACH OTHER using Pichu regardless of character choice for pichu to actually be a good character.
it annoys me that people use tournament placings so much for tier lists. if they want to do that, they should calculate a mathematical list based solely on tournament placings with a large sample space. leave that **** out of this, and base it on either match-ups (street fighter, or, like, any other fighting game) or character potential under current top level play (what Smash bros. tier lists are supposed to be).

 

[KAOSTAR]

just make two ****ing lists or be prepared to give and take.