OFFICIAL Sonic rFAQ! New to Sonic? Have a quick question? Ask it here!

[Jim Morrison]

Falco does better against almost everyone except the two you named.

 

[Kinzer]

You're also going to run into trouble when you come across a Pikachu player who knows how to do the CG.

 

[chaoechidna]

I play falco when I want a win with less of a challenge, too. He's pretty amazing and the reverse boost pivot grab is a ton of fun, but warios tend to own him too. People say he's cheap, but it takes a good amount of skill to do the advanced techs (minus the cg to spike).

 

[Kinzer]

Cheap?

Have people tried ledge plankin' Flaco sometime (where that ledge grab rule isn't installed/as ledge grabs will allow)?

Now THAT is cheap. I know because I've done it before, but I had to stop because I have too many morals and pity for the poor guy.

 

[chaoechidna]

Haha, so true man, falco's recovery is the worst.. That's about the best way to kill a falco, though. He lives to high percents just like sonic does, so ledge grab is best falco killer. Don't stop though man, it's not like most falcos quit chain grabbing. I know of like... two besides me that don't chain grab. Even I do it when I'm losing. Call it even when someone discovers sonic's hidden CG.

 

[Tesh]

Does Up Smash have 16 of which only 8 can hit each person because of how it spins people?
Or does does it have 8 hits with reverse hit boxes (like F Smash) based on which side you get pulled in from?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I am not sure. I think it's 15 hitboxes, when you try it with 2 people on either side (1 on top makes it 15)

 

[Tesh]

So is that why you get red sparks sometimes even when the whole attack goes through?
Also does anyone know which hit trips people on platforms above you or is it just random out of the 3 hits that send people downward?

 

[Tesh]

What causes air tripping? Is it caused by having a "lagless" landing without the tumble animation? I have air tripped on stage by throwing an item as a land after spring. Are there any other things that will cause you to air trip without landing at the apex of spring?

Also is Airdashing always invincible? Are there any practical applications for Airdashing as an edgeguard?

 

[Kinzer]

I can tell you right now that there are no practical ways to edgeguard with Airdash. I don't even want to argue why that's true, if you just take the time to try and find an application you will give up on it.

That's how bad it is.

I mean the practical use of it, I am in no way claiming the Airdash itself is (truly?) bad.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Isn't Airdashing only viable on Brinstar? I think that answers the edgeguarding thing. On it being invincible, ihdk. I think I've read that it has similar properties to the iSDR, minus the defying gravity bit. Invincibility might be one of them.

 

[Camalange]

What causes air tripping? Is it caused by having a "lagless" landing without the tumble animation?

That is correct.

I have air tripped on stage by throwing an item as a land after spring. Are there any other hings that will cause you to air trip without landing at the apex of spring?

Anything that cancels the tumble animation of Sonic's spring will cause an air trip, which is what the item toss did. I'm not aware of other situations though where this happens.

Also remember that if you do recover that way, all you have to do is a single jump and land on the ground to be rid of it.

Also is Airdashing always invincible? Are there any practical applications for Airdashing as an edgeguard?

Air Dash airdash air-dash
"Air Dash" is a situational 'glitch' that works on certain levels only. The basic input for it is:

Side-B charge (upwards) on a 45 degree or steeper slope > release

Again, the 'magic' behind the air dash is, like spinshot, interruption of a phase change. In this case, side-B's charge is supposed to go into the air. However, this phase change is immediately interrupted by the ground. The invincibility frames given by the release then extends for the duration of the move. Performing a turnaround will create a 'new' SDR and turn off the invincibility frames. The reason behind the naming of this technique as 'air dash' is that when Sonic spins off some edges, he will spin horizontally off the platform, as if he were on an invisible platform.

A few interesting notes about the Air Dash:
Flight behavior
- If the ground ends while completely flat (horizontally) or rising, Sonic will launch horizontally into the air as though he were riding on invisible ground (example: Delphino tower, Pokemon Stadium trees).
- If the ground goes downwards (Brawl Yoshi's Island), you may either: spin off the stage in an invincible ASC, airdash (it tends to happen in custom stages), or stall on the edge while spinning and go flying off the stage in screech stop animation when it runs out of power (Pictochat).

Teleportation
- If he passes a platform (can be above or under him) as he's in the air and makes contact with anything (projectile, person, etc) he will teleport to another height while still spinning.

Turning?
- If you don't have enough momentum to climb the slope and go backwards (ex: single charge), you will still be in the invincible state (like for example, the side platforms in Brinstar or the hills in Pipes).


Phase changes
Airdash = invincible "floating" spin done out of side-B
iSDR = invincible spin
iASC = invincible ASC that results from being slope-reversed and falling downwards off a platform (like in Brinstar).

Air dash phase changes:
SD (charge) > iSDR (uphill/horizontal) > Airdash > (double jump)
SD (charge) > iSDR (downhill) > iASC > (double jump)
SD (charge) > iSDR (uphill, slow) > shield
SD (charge) > iSDR (turn around) > SDR > SDJ

Isn't Airdashing only viable on Brinstar? I think that answers the edgeguarding thing. On it being invincible, ihdk. I think I've read that it has similar properties to the iSDR, minus the defying gravity bit. Invincibility might be one of them.

Well, that post show that it is indeed invincible and works on a plethora of stages besides Brinstar.


Get creative with it! Best of luck Tesh.

Everyone knows the DBZ combo is the best...
SideB > Airdash > Airdash hit >Teleport > Aerial

I can't imagine it being good at EDGEGUARDING, but it's amazing when you camp on the right side of RC (on the boat...lol on a boat)

 

[Kinzer]

If by viable you mean do-able then no, I've been able to do an air-dash on the bow of the smaller ship on the Pirate Ship stage, some transformations on Picto (and I forget if it was possible on the edges or not), the back of the Rainbow Cruise ship, and (perhaps, I'm not too sure on this last part) some of the transformations on either of the pokeymanz stadiumz.

 

[Camalange]

Well Pokemon Stadium and Rainbow Cruise are both legal stages, so in my book Air Dash is viable.

HELL ENOUGH OF THIS CALM ****, HAVE YOU SPAMMED AIR DASH ON RAINBOW CRUISE LIKE I JUST SAID??? IF NOT DO IT NOW!!! ITS GOOD SO YES IT'S VIABLE!!!

xD

but no really, do it. It's legit.

 

[Kinzer]

Wait.

Since when was Brinstar banned anywhere?

Also I didn't want to spam the MU thread but I loved wat you did back thar Camal.

 

[Camalange]

Wait.

Since when was Brinstar banned anywhere?

It's not, but I generally ban it >_>
Are you asking this because I said PS1 and RC are legal? If so, I just figured it was a given that Brinstar was legal since OSM said it :/

Also I didn't want to spam the MU thread but I loved wat you did back thar Camal.

lol, hoe /hope

 

[Kinzer]

Sorry, I don't mean to get on anybody's toes, and seeing as how don't need to considering "viable" wasn't very clear to begin with...

Let's just put it behind us I guess.

 

[Camalange]

Let's just put it behind us I guess.

Nah, don't sweat it bro.
I didn't type Caps for yelling, I did it for cool xD


However, it's probably not a good idea to SPAM it because it does get predictable obviously and loses its affect, but it's something you must remember to use somepoint in matchs on RC. Honestly, it really can do work when used smartly.

 

[Tesh]

I played a snake on delfino recently and grabbed him at the very right edge of the flying carpet. When I used dthrow it put him under the stage similar to how the DDD trick on battlefield works. Can this be forced or was this just horrible DI on his part? He had 12% damage when the dthrow ended and was unable to recover.

 

[TwinkleToes]

The DDD trick has nothing to do with DI. So, if this really is a replica of that then the Snake shouldn't be able to affect the outcome after you grab him.

 

[Tesh]

I wasn't thinking the DDD trick was DI related, I thought this one might be, I play Delfino a lot and I have never thrown someone under the stage like this. If it wasn't his fault then why have I never experienced this when Dthrowing on Delfino.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Guess I'd have to see the video to give more useful input. Be more specific and maybe other people can test this.

 

[Kinzer]

There's a flying carpet on Delfino?

Are you sure you're not mistaking for Rainbow Cruise?

Anyway cool thing to remember, if you D-Throw your opponent on platforms that can be passed through either way, if your opponent DI's down (probably they tried to tech it in place), they will instead go under the platform and put themselves in a worse position than having DIed up. You might want to look into the tech lab or do some research yourself to find out more.

 

[Camalange]

Anyway cool thing to remember, if you D-Throw your opponent on platforms that can be passed through either way, if your opponent DI's down (probably they tried to tech it in place), they will instead go under the platform and put themselves in a worse position than having DIed up. You might want to look into the tech lab or do some research yourself to find out more.

^^^

I remember us discussing somewhere in Kojin's thread about other characters getting affected by the stages that you can go through from beneath if they DI down...

I forget what we concluded.

 

[Kinzer]

We concluded that it is **** since it counters our counter.

 

[Tesh]

I went back and checked on Delfino and Halberd. Every time I used dthrow it released snake, bowser and link under the stage. The guy I played probably did DI down causing him to be dropped at a steeper angle resulting a botched recovery. I'm not sure if its the hurtbox size or the fall speed, but apparently it stops working on snake if he has more than 5% damage and keeps working on link until 40ish (and he was actually forced to use his Up B apparently).

I'm not sure what happens if they DI up, but with no DI they always got released under at very low percents.

Too bad sonic can't spike, it would be too easy.

 

[Pawprint]

SoniKupo suggested I ask this again here. Please help.
Hey all, I read all the guides here (and a few elsewhere) regarding the ASC. I know what it is and, in theory, how to do it. I can perform it with about 80% reliability on a standing-still training dummy.

But uh, using it in an actualy competitive fight is insanely difficult. My questions are many...

1. The thing has pretty bad priority. Is everyone praising it feeling the same "wow I just got naired out of an ASC" effect I am? All they have to do is jump and do ANY arial attack to screw up the combo before it even begins.

2. WHEN is it used (specifically)? For instance, do you usually run headlong at your enemy, shorthop > downB > ASC? Do you wait for your opponent to rush YOU and then shorthop > downB > ASC?

3. Is there a certain range or damage percentage that it works best/only works at? As mentioned, I'm unable to perform it with 100% reliability even on an unmoving target. Should I be aiming for a certain "angle" on the enemy? I mean, it comes down at 45degrees, but should I aim for the enemy's head, midsection, or feet?

4. Is all this for an extra 7% damage?!? I'm pulling my hair out here. >.<

5. Is it possible to DI out of all but the first hit? If so, do level 9 CPU's do this automatically?

Sigh. There are more but I can't remember them. I'm having SO MUCH trouble with this supposedly "metagame breaking" tech. PLEASE give any suggestions you can (even "practice noob" might help...) on how I can use ASC effectively and, more importantly, REALIABLY in competitive battle. Otherwise I'm going to go insane.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Be tricky and just hold forward. lol

 

[Kinzer]

"Press the attack!"

But seriously, I think we covered this in your other thread, so if you need any further assistance/still have (different) questions, feel free to ask. If you're serious about having trouble with ASC, then we're here to lend a helping hand.

 

[infomon]

^^ don't listen to them

ah Pawprint, your post takes me back to the good (read: horrible) old days when I was trying to learn Sonic. Yes, ASC seems stupid and obvious and simple, but yes we manage to pull it off in real matches all the time.

I can perform it with about 80% reliability on a standing-still training dummy.

Wait, what? Why only 80%? We're just talking about using the aerial down-B, not necessarily getting multiple hits with it or even shield-cancelling it, right? You have to lean the control stick forward for it to keep its hitbox, so maybe that's your problem? Or mebbe you're just not good at aiming it... I usually shorthop it unless I'm already in the air.

1. The thing has pretty bad priority.

Hold forward on the control stick = it keeps its hitbox out = its priority is quite solid. You can eat through most projectiles (Zelda's fireball, Lucario's auraspheres (sometimes, depending on charge), turnips sometimes), clash attacks like Fsmashes or MK's glide attack, etc. Today I was able to beat out Rock Smash with it with weird spacing, lol.

All they have to do is jump and do ANY arial attack to screw up the combo before it even begins.

Aerials in general will beat out ASC, if they're able to hit you. But that shouldn't be happening. See below.

2. WHEN is it used (specifically)? For instance, do you usually run headlong at your enemy, shorthop > downB > ASC? Do you wait for your opponent to rush YOU and then shorthop > downB > ASC?

Neither. And both. ASC is NOT an approach. It is a bait, and it is also a punish. (Though if it's a bait, it's not necessarily what you use to punish.)

If the enemy's approaching you, then you might want to shorthop backwards and charge the ASC while leaning it backwards in the air (by holding the control-stick in the down-left position, if they're coming at you from the right) (leaning the charging phase of the ASC doesn't help a ton, but enough to help with the delicate spacing that's required to make its tricksies work). You should be able to stay out of range of anything the enemy can do while you're in the charging phase. If he's really aggro or quick, then you should be timing it so you can shield-cancel it on the ground before he can get to you -- if you're expecting an attack (like an aerial). What you hope most to bait is a whiffed attack, so that the ASC is an easy and effective punishment. If he shields, the ASC is decent safe shield-pressure. If he spotdodges, you release it in time to hit him during the end-of-spotdodge lag. If he rolls, you've prolly got him in either direction (but noone rolls).

If you're approaching the enemy.... well, no. You're Sonic. You run at them, but screech-stop out of range of anything they can do. Then you run away. Then you run back. You shorthop backwards, fastfall airdodge, run away. You run at them. You run away. You run at them, shorthop backwards ASC, they haven't done anything you can punish so you release it just barely before you land with it and shield-cancel, then run away. You run at them. You run away. You run at them and at generous mid-range you short-hop forwards into a forward-charging ASC, but spinshot over their head into a spaced (not shield-grabbable) Bair.

idk. does this make any sense?

3. Is there a certain range or damage percentage that it works best/only works at? As mentioned, I'm unable to perform it with 100% reliability even on an unmoving target. Should I be aiming for a certain "angle" on the enemy? I mean, it comes down at 45degrees, but should I aim for the enemy's head, midsection, or feet?

You should always be able to hit at least once with ASC. For multiple hits, good spacing is required, I'm not sure if high %s rly throw it off or not. Aim for their neck? and hold forward.

Multi-hits with ASC and/or just ASC follow-up (ASC > SDR > SDJ > Aerial, but more probably just ASC > SDJ > Aerial or ASC > Aerial to make sure the aerial connects) are great for damage-wracking. At very high %s and/or on light characters, ASC can kill (I did it to an MK today lol)... but the first hit has the most knockback so if you're trying to kill with it (lol) you prolly want to hit them just once.

4. Is all this for an extra 7% damage?!? I'm pulling my hair out here. >.<

You're not leaning it forward, are you? Depending on its velocity, ASC can do between 6 and 11% damage. Each hit. Hit twice at full speed that's 22%. Follow-up with an aerial (easy) = 30-something damage.

Hope this helps. Did you see the side-b vs. down-b video? It might help a bit more?
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k

 

[infomon]

doublington postington!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixopDJg8j2w&feature=channel

^^ for a match with a lot of ASC, including at least one multi-hit combo, using it as shield-pressure, etc.

 

[Pawprint]

Thanks a lot for the responses. I've actually seen some of your videos (coughTerios) and you guys use ASC REALLY effectively. Just a few responses/further questions.

(In advance: Please forgive me if I can't keep up with the "If they do this then do that" kinda talk... I'm trying, but it's kinda hard.)

I am tilting forward on the control stick when in the air after charging the arial downB. When I said I only hit 80% of the time, I meant with the extra hits. The first hit is kind of a given, I guess. I mean, it's an arial spincharge. That's also why I was calling it an "extra 7%." The original hit does what, 8-10-ish? I dunno. Maybe it's the added hitstun-comboability leading into an arial that makes it valuable?

Yeah. I am seriously having trouble with this... /embarrassed. On the one hand, I'm trying to learn it as "situational" and "a punisher." On the other hand, I need my ASC to be reliable enough to actually do 30%ish when I attempt it.

P.S.: The guide on the difference between the spindashes here is extremely confusing with all the "A1" "steak" and etc abbreviations. I think I read it like 3 times and I still don't know what some of it means. lol.

 

[Kinzer]

Goodness Tenki, he really needs to make it more newbie friendly, the jokes are fine but not when it gets to the point nobody but the people who understand get the information, and the point of the guide is not for lols. :/

 

[Camalange]

I keep saying that he should change it back >_<

plz Tenki, plz? lol

 

[infomon]

Yeah the spindash thread was joke-ified and should be changed back... as epic as it is lol

Sonic doesn't make any sense already without the extra help lol

I am tilting forward on the control stick when in the air after charging the arial downB. When I said I only hit 80% of the time, I meant with the extra hits. The first hit is kind of a given, I guess. I mean, it's an arial spincharge. That's also why I was calling it an "extra 7%." The original hit does what, 8-10-ish? I dunno. Maybe it's the added hitstun-comboability leading into an arial that makes it valuable?

Yeah, okay. Each hit does 6-11. Hey, you're Sonic -- take what you can get. Say the first hit of ASC does 10%. But if you've landed the first hit, then there's no way you shouldn't be able to follow up with something else. There are lots of options: ASC > grab can easily amount to 10 + 6 (2x pummel) + 12 (Uthrow) = 28 damage. That's a solid punisher for Sonic. Or ASC > Aerial on its own is, say, 24%; nevermind that you might've multi-hit, or maybe got an SDJ in there too. ASC > footstool > ASC shield-cancel grab is I believe abbreviated to SLOW (Sonic Loop of Win) and gives you, again, (6-11) + (6-11)? + (3x?) + (12) = good damage

It's no rocksmash, but then, we don't respawn as Ivysaur either

Yeah. I am seriously having trouble with this... /embarrassed. On the one hand, I'm trying to learn it as "situational" and "a punisher." On the other hand, I need my ASC to be reliable enough to actually do 30%ish when I attempt it.

No... you need the patience to be satisfied when you're able to dance a myriad of delicate tricks around a slew of powerful attacks from your opponent, only to come in with measly 6% pokes in the opportunities provided by your opponent's misteaks. This is what it is to main Sonic.

The reason ASC is so applauded is that, for Sonic's tools it is great. It's one of the best things he's got going for him, even if it's not that good. But it is that good; in the context of the way Sonic plays. His manoeuverability allows him to rly capitalize on it. And moreso, it is his manoeuverability. We're a bait+punish character, and ASC is our best punisher... and it is in itself, a bag of tricks waiting to be opened. But you can't let yourself get predictable!!

Just my thoughts; then again, I'm a lousy Sonic.

 

[Pawprint]

Well, thanks very much for the advice. Turns out I was holding the control stick a little too far to the side and performing an arial side-B instead. Maddening. In any case, now that I know that... it's still obscenely hard to use in real battle. I just fought a level 9 CPU Wolf for 45 minutes straight and didn't hit him with it. Not once. (No, I wasn't sitting there spamming it like a scrub. I used a bunch of other stuff too... mostly had to murder him out of frustration every 5-10 minutes.

So uh, I'm a noob and I use the Wiimote-Nunchuck. That's right. I ran outta Gamecube controllers and, well, I kinda feel like the C-stick's a little "cheap."(TM) My 3 friends and I play Brawl for about 1-2 hours a night... but that doesn't make us any good. We have 160 create-a-stages and always play with items (low, ofc). I guess I say that to say I'm not really that hardcore at brawl.

Nonetheless, I am bound and determined to learn Sonic as best I can.. which includes this tech. So basically my strategy is to hope it's easier on human players than it is on CPU's. I dunno. Practice practice practice...

Anywho, thanks again for the help. If you have any additional tips you think of, lemme know.

 

[Chis]

Well bait and punishing tatics don't work that well on cpu, since they're not human. You're better of trying it over wifi against real people.

 

[Kinzer]

And even then, that might be a problem.

 

[Tenki]

I'm pretty sure you can DI (not just SDI) a certain direction and avoid the double hit from ASC or SDR>SDJ.

I generally don't even bother going for the double hit anymore. If it happens, it happens.

If you land the ASC (single hit, double hit, whatever) then just jump, aerial, and get on with your game. If you miss, then go on with your life lol. the %30+ is nice, but %20 (single+aerial) is still better than ~%10 (pure single hit ASC - no aerial), if that makes any sense.

 

[da K.I.D.]

double hit ASC is not hard to hit with on any character