[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

Clones. Becuase they share the same model. Also, Ganondorf is the only one who has a move different from the copy. Toon Link had 4 plus the throws.

They don't share the same model. Falco doesn't have a tail and Roy doesn't have blue hair and look like a girl. What they do have, however, is the same animations. Animations and models are not the same.

I didn't see anything, so I'm not sure how far back it is. I'll comment if you can direct me to it.

EDIT:Saw it. Ness's was fine but that is more or less the fact it is an alteration of his current moveset. Lucas's is just awkward. There not much function. Why does he need any of those moves? How do they help his play style? This is what must be considered when making a moveset.

Also, why does it matter if they use Paula/Kumatora's moves. They aren't going to be in Smash, and we sit at installment 3.

Tell what you mean by function? Anyway, I had to get creative with Lucas since the two shouldn't really be having similar specials in the first place. They're their own characters despite being having the same fighting role in their games. Besides, I wouldn't call Lucas' moveset awkward, just different. You have an edge-guard move that damages, a mini-Franklin Badge move, a projectile, and a recovery.

Anyway, it kind of matters that they use their partners' stuff. Why borrow moves when they have their own stuff as I have mentioned several times before. It'd be like giving Falco the staff that only Krystal and Fox have used.

Anyway, for the MOTHER girls, I'd be content if they were just alt. models.

 

[BKupa666]

Anyway, it kind of matters that they use their partners' stuff. Why borrow moves when they have their own stuff as I have mentioned several times before. It'd be like giving Falco the staff that only Krystal and Fox have used.

Kind of like giving Falco and Wolf a LAAAAANDMAASTA!

 

[Big-Cat]

Kind of like giving Falco and Wolf a LAAAAANDMAASTA!

Not necesarily with Falco. He has had access to Landmasters the entire time. However, I do agree with Wolf.

EDIT: I take that back with Falco. You could then argue that he would have access to the staff as well. Still, it makes more sense for Falco to use a RANDOMASUTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! than Wolf.

 

[SmashChu]

They don't share the same model. Falco doesn't have a tail and Roy doesn't have blue hair and look like a girl. What they do have, however, is the same animations. Animations and models are not the same.

Yeah, their models. Sakurai even says it on the clone character's pages. Someone explained it well here. Basically, they are texture swaps (to a degree). Either way, they share the sma animations. This is not true of any of the Brawl characters.



Tell what you mean by function?[/quote]
Pretty much, workability. That the moveset given works, and, of course, fits the character. To get a little deeper.......

Besides, I wouldn't call Lucas' moveset awkward, just different. You have an edge-guard move that damages, a mini-Franklin Badge move, a projectile, and a recovery.

But how do these help Lucas? Lucas is a more offensive technical character. He has powerful (yet still hard to place) Smashes, quick technical abilities, strong grabs, spikes, the usual. He is a more offensive oriented character, but this is where his specials come in. It gives him some kind of defence. He is a technical character, so offensive projectiles would suit him. Why odes he need a water gun. An attack that pushes people away doesn't help him, and would be useless to his character, especially with other means of edge guarding. But a fire attack or the ability to freeze would.

Anyway, it kind of matters that they use their partners' stuff. Why borrow moves when they have their own stuff as I have mentioned several times before. It'd be like giving Falco the staff that only Krystal and Fox have used.

Because that would be outside of Falco's personality. He is an aerial fighter. He'd also be the least likely to use a staff "when all I need is a blaster". Krystal would as she is trained in these arts.

It's the same reason why meta-Knight has the shuttle loop. It fits.

 

[MajinNecro69]

Falco really should have had an Arwing Assault. It would pretty much function like the Dragoon, except you blast instead of 1HKO. The Arwing's blaster does about 25% each, and you can fire about 20 times during the Final Smash. It doesn't kill unless about 175%, so it wouldn't be THAT broken.

Wolf should have...NOT had a landmaster.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, their models. Sakurai even says it on the clone character's pages. Someone explained it well here. Basically, they are texture swaps (to a degree). Either way, they share the sma animations. This is not true of any of the Brawl characters.

I wouldn't call them texture swaps, but yes, they're model swaps, something that should be done as costumes, not clones. However, we're not getting into that again.

Pretty much, workability. That the moveset given works, and, of course, fits the character. To get a little deeper.......

Okay, I got my definition, thank you.

Besides, I wouldn't call Lucas' moveset awkward, just different. You have an edge-guard move that damages, a mini-Franklin Badge move, a projectile, and a recovery.[/B]
But how do these help Lucas? Lucas is a more offensive technical character. He has powerful (yet still hard to place) Smashes, quick technical abilities, strong grabs, spikes, the usual. He is a more offensive oriented character, but this is where his specials come in. It gives him some kind of defence. He is a technical character, so offensive projectiles would suit him. Why odes he need a water gun. An attack that pushes people away doesn't help him, and would be useless to his character, especially with other means of edge guarding. But a fire attack or the ability to freeze would.

Three of the four attacks I have in mind are defensive. PK Counter and PSI Shield have acted as defense against projectiles. PK Love and Fire act as GO AWAY attacks. Salt Water Gun does this as well. Anyway, I chose that because this is something that he can use in the original and keeps the opponent from getting to close to him.

Anyway, you've mentioned that the moveset should fit the character. However, Lucas isn't a really offensive character in terms of personality. That goes to Kumatora. If anything, Lucas would be a defensive fighter of sorts (don't know how that'd work though at the moment).

Because that would be outside of Falco's personality. He is an aerial fighter. He'd also be the least likely to use a staff "when all I need is a blaster". Krystal would as she is trained in these arts.

It's the same reason why meta-Knight has the shuttle loop. It fits.

Okay, we don't give Falco the staff because it doesn't suit his personality. Yet, we can make Lucas an offensive fighter when it's not in him? Anyway, to use Sakurai logic in regards to giving Falco the staff, the trophy can just say Krystal trained him in using it when he learned he would be in Brawl.

While it fits Meta Knight that he uses a shuttle loop, at least he's only borrowing only one move, especially one that doesn't really define Kirby anyway.

 

[Roihu]

Falco really should have had an Arwing Assault. It would pretty much function like the Dragoon, except you blast instead of 1HKO. The Arwing's blaster does about 25% each, and you can fire about 20 times during the Final Smash. It doesn't kill unless about 175%, so it wouldn't be THAT broken.

Wolf should have...NOT had a landmaster.

20 times is a little too broken...

 

[Big-Cat]

20 times is a little too broken...

Five is probably more balanced.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

How much of a role should Sakurai play in the development of SSB4? Maybe just supervisor so that the Nintendo nostalgia/history is correct.

 

[flyinfilipino]

How much of a role should Sakurai play in the development of SSB4? Maybe just supervisor so that the Nintendo nostalgia/history is correct.

You sure about that?

"WE'RE GONNA HAVE FUN WITH THIS THING."

 

[SmashChu]

How much of a role should Sakurai play in the development of SSB4? Maybe just supervisor so that the Nintendo nostalgia/history is correct.

Same as Brawl. The head hanco. He does an amazing job.

 

[Big-Cat]

How much of a role should Sakurai play in the development of SSB4? Maybe just supervisor so that the Nintendo nostalgia/history is correct.

I think he shouldn't work on it, personally. This is because he's more about fair play for everyone and not skill (therefore anti-competitive). Not to mention that the SSE was crash and burn. It starts off great, then it just falls flat since it makes no sense and lacks motivation for the characters.

As for seeing if the history is correct, that's one reason to keep him away. There are a number of errors in Brawl and it's not just in movesets. Wolf's trophies are a good example of this. Not to mention that his proportions in reps is off in the trophy department. Not only are there WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many Kirby trophies, but there aren't enough for the others since a huge majority of the trophies are 3D rips and series like MOTHER, Fire Emblem, and Wario aren't mostly 3D series games.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I think he shouldn't work on it, personally. This is because he's more about fair play for everyone and not skill (therefore anti-competitive).

I don't think I've ever heard you take that stance before, KumaOso.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't think I've ever heard you take that stance before, KumaOso.

Really? Well, I guess I don't come off as competitive anyway since I don't play tournaments even though I should since I have a mean Lucas.

Besides, it's better to make the game competitive. Basically, the game should be done where players can take or leave the option to play with more depth.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Really? Well, I guess I don't come off as competitive anyway since I don't play tournaments even though I should since I have a mean Lucas.

Besides, it's better to make the game competitive. Basically, the game should be done where players can take or leave the option to play with more depth.

*LUCAS, my mortal enemy.*

Do you think Brawl has enough depth now to distinguish good from bad players or (no offense intended) are you just hopping on the competitive bandwagon?

 

[Big-Cat]

*LUCAS, my mortal enemy.*

Do you think Brawl has enough depth now to distinguish good from bad players or (no offense intended) are you just hopping on the competitive bandwagon?

I think it has some depth. However, I can't say this for certain since I was never a Melee tourney*** in the first place. I don't mind advance techniques as long as they aren't exploits of glitches.

I would like to see these though:

1. No random tripping.
2. No edgehogging (meaning Ivysaur, Olimar, and Zamus have better recovery).
3. The ability to combo,
4. Speed somewhere between Brawl and Melee's.
5. Moveable air dodging (like in Melee).
6. The second jump button serves as a short hop button when on the ground.
7. You can turn around in mid air. This allows you to do back aerial attacks much easier.

Anyway, when I get back home from Gustav, how about you and I fight each other? I'll host since I have a cable connection.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I think it has some depth. However, I can't say this for certain since I was never a Melee tourney*** in the first place. I don't mind advance techniques as long as they aren't exploits of glitches.

I would like to see these though:

1. No random tripping.
2. No edgehogging (meaning Ivysaur, Olimar, and Zamus have better recovery).
3. The ability to combo,
4. Speed somewhere between Brawl and Melee's.
5. Moveable air dodging (like in Melee).
6. The second jump button serves as a short hop button when on the ground.
7. You can turn around in mid air. This allows you to do back aerial attacks much easier.

Anyway, when I get back home from Gustav, how about you and I fight each other? I'll host since I have a cable connection.

2. That's not too terrible an aspect to the game. Do we sacrifice this just to help out 2 and 1/3 of a character, or just change the tether mechanic back to what it was in Melee?

3. Do you think this is necessary as well?

5. Do you think this would make dodging certain attacks harder aka Zelda's new fire

6. How can you do a second jump on the ground?

That'd be kinda cool. Except I don't exactly have a Wii, but my friend does and he has a Wi-fi connection, so I could try to arrange something through him. So, maybe?

 

[Big-Cat]

2. That's not too terrible an aspect to the game. Do we sacrifice this just to help out 2 and 1/3 of a character, or just change the tether mechanic back to what it was in Melee?

3. Do you think this is necessary as well?

5. Do you think this would make dodging certain attacks harder aka Zelda's new fire

6. How can you do a second jump on the ground?

That'd be kinda cool. Except I don't exactly have a Wii, but my friend does and he has a Wi-fi connection, so I could try to arrange something through him. So, maybe?

2. What was the tether mechanic in Melee? What I have in mind is that edge garding can't happen. If someone else tries to grab the edge when someone is already grabbing it, the person already holding on to the edge lets go. For tether recoveries, the character already holding on will get hit and let go.

3. I think it is necessary. From what I've heard, Capt. Falcon got nerfed big time because he couldn't combo anymore. Not to mention that this can bring about characters with a combo oriented moveset.

5. Actually, I think this make it easier. The air dodge acts like Melee meaning you can "slide" in any direction. If you time it right, you can easily dodge the new Din's Fire.

6. By second jump, I meant the second jump button. Think of it in terms of the GC Controller. X acts as a regular jump and Y acts as a short hop for its first jump.

Anyway, we can always arrange something. You live in the Atlantic time zone and I live in the Central time zone so we would have to keep that in mind.

 

[flyinfilipino]

2. What was the tether mechanic in Melee? What I have in mind is that edge garding can't happen. If someone else tries to grab the edge when someone is already grabbing it, the person already holding on to the edge lets go. For tether recoveries, the character already holding on will get hit and let go.

3. I think it is necessary. From what I've heard, Capt. Falcon got nerfed big time because he couldn't combo anymore. Not to mention that this can bring about characters with a combo oriented moveset.

5. Actually, I think this make it easier. The air dodge acts like Melee meaning you can "slide" in any direction. If you time it right, you can easily dodge the new Din's Fire.

6. By second jump, I meant the second jump button. Think of it in terms of the GC Controller. X acts as a regular jump and Y acts as a short hop for its first jump.

Anyway, we can always arrange something. You live in the Atlantic time zone and I live in the Central time zone so we would have to keep that in mind.

2. You could tether to any vertical surface, not just the tip of the ledge. They could make it so that happens when the ledge isn't free.

3. Yeah, I'm kinda neutral on the subject. But

Spoiler

if it'll keep some competitive people from whining, go right ahead with it, Sakurai

.

5. Well, I was kinda thinking when you're coming back to the stage from the air after you're vulnerable from dodging once. Zelda might be able to juggle, but maybe you're right and it wouldn't be a problem. (I'm just pissed at Zelda at the moment)

6. Oh, gotcha.

Right-o, when would you possibly be available? (needs to practice!)

 

[Big-Cat]

2. You could tether to any vertical surface, not just the tip of the ledge. They could make it so that happens when the ledge isn't free.

3. Yeah, I'm kinda neutral on the subject. But

Spoiler

if it'll keep some competitive people from whining, go right ahead with it, Sakurai

.

5. Well, I was kinda thinking when you're coming back to the stage from the air after you're vulnerable from dodging once. Zelda might be able to juggle, but maybe you're right and it wouldn't be a problem. (I'm just pissed at Zelda at the moment)

6. Oh, gotcha.

Right-o, when would you possibly be available? (needs to practice!)

3. Vertical surface?

5. Maybe they can give us the ability to air dodge as many times as possible, but only be able to slide once for everytime you're in the air.

Anyway, I can't say for sure when I'll be available. There's a power outage at my house from Gustav (at my Grandpa's in Texas atm) so I can't say for sure, not to mention I have school in the way. I think I can be available on weekends and Fridays unless I have days with little to no homework.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Vertical surface?

Anyway, I can't say for sure when I'll be available. There's a power outage at my house from Gustav (at my Grandpa's in Texas atm) so I can't say for sure, not to mention I have school in the way. I think I can be available on weekends and Fridays unless I have days with little to no homework.

Yeh know, like walls and stuff, like on Fourside. If someone's on the ledge, Zamus/Olimar/Ivy can grapple onto the wall below the ledge and recover that way.

Yeah, that sucks. (Hanna is headed my way, I think) Alright, I'll get back to you then and ask my friend if I can borrow the Wii for a bit (I have a football game this Saturday) (and maybe a tropical storm too).

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeh know, like walls and stuff, like on Fourside. If someone's on the ledge, Zamus/Olimar/Ivy can grapple onto the wall below the ledge and recover that way.

Yeah, that sucks. (Hanna is headed my way, I think) Alright, I'll get back to you then and ask my friend if I can borrow the Wii for a bit (I have a football game this Saturday) (and maybe a tropical storm too).

Oh, I see what you mean. Basically, tether recoveries can latch to the side of a stage huh? I think that may give use to the ability to latch onto a wall.

At least you're not worried about the storm that fights for his friends (I think). So, good, we can arrange this soon. Anyway, I like you.

*adds you to friends list*

 

[flyinfilipino]

Oh, I see what you mean. Basically, tether recoveries can latch to the side of a stage huh? I think that may give use to the ability to latch onto a wall.

At least you're not worried about the storm that fights for his friends (I think). So, good, we can arrange this soon. Anyway, I like you.

*adds you to friends list*

I haven't been tracking that one, but I'll try to prepare myself.

Spoiler

OMG BFFs!

 

[Darkwashu]

How about no tether recoveries in general?

Same as Brawl. The head hanco. He does an amazing job.

YOU DIDNT GET FLAMED?

 

[Big-Cat]

How about no tether recoveries in general?

I think we need tether recoveries. Of course, maybe it's because I also main Zamus and second Olimar.

 

[Bobz]

i think he meant no tether exclusive recoveries, of course characters will have tethers, but everyone should have a real up b

 

[SirKibble]

I think characters like Ivy, Zamus, and Olimar can stick to tether recoveries as their Up B. Not every character has to conform. Heck, Jiggs has been around for three games now and still doesn't have an Up B recovery. I actually liked how they made that something kind of new in Brawl. Maybe we'll get a completely different kind of recovery to add to that in SSB4.

 

[Big-Cat]

Anyone got an idea for a new recovery?

I can't think of anything at the moment.

 

[flyinfilipino]

For anyone? I can't really think of other means of recovery besides through attacks, with vehicles, teleportation, and tethering. I think everything's covered.

 

[Big-Cat]

You're probably right.

We've got:
Teleportation
Self-Projectile
Tether
Regular
Double recovery
Free-movement
Hovering

I can't think of anything else.

 

[.Marik]

Well... if they do come out with another SSB game, (I heard rumours it's coming out for the DS, don't know if it's true), then I have many things that they could improve the game with...

Make the gameplay more like Melee

More characters

More advanced techniques, like L-Canceling and spiking, as well as tricks like Dragonic Reverse, to increase the competitive level of the game. No, I don't give a s*** about n00bs, and the "casual gamer". If they want it to be so "easy", then they need to get better. Simple as that. It's not impossible people, everyone starts out like that. Make it more of a treat for the already experienced gamer.

Make every character EQUAL. No more stupid tiers crap. >_<

Better online gameplay.

Make another Subspace, that was awesome. ^^

And that's about it, for now.... >_>

 

[flyinfilipino]

Make every character EQUAL. No more stupid tiers crap. >_<

Can't blame the tier list on Sakurai and friends/Smash will never be perfectly balanced

 

[gantrain05]

Well... if they do come out with another SSB game, (I heard rumours it's coming out for the DS, don't know if it's true), then I have many things that they could improve the game with...

Make the gameplay more like Melee

More characters

More advanced techniques, like L-Canceling and spiking, as well as tricks like Dragonic Reverse, to increase the competitive level of the game. No, I don't give a s*** about n00bs, and the "casual gamer". If they want it to be so "easy", then they need to get better. Simple as that. It's not impossible people, everyone starts out like that. Make it more of a treat for the already experienced gamer.

Make every character EQUAL. No more stupid tiers crap. >_<

Better online gameplay.

Make another Subspace, that was awesome. ^^

And that's about it, for now.... >_>

ok first of all, making the gameplay more like melee would not make the game automatically better, and since when did spiking become an advanced technique? do you even play melee competetivley or are you just jumping on the bandwagon?

 

[manhunter098]

What about letting some characters be able to climb the sides of stages? Rather than just the simple wall cling a couple characters have a few might get the ability to actually move up and down essentially while wall clinging. It doesnt necessarily add a new method of recovery, but it does add a new element to the edge game.

 

[SirKibble]

^ That would work extremely well for someone like, say, Knuckles.

No, I don't give a s*** about n00bs, and the "casual gamer". If they want it to be so "easy", then they need to get better. Simple as that. It's not impossible people, everyone starts out like that. Make it more of a treat for the already experienced gamer.

Well, aren't you just a bucket of sunshine...

You seem to be making the incredibly incorrect assumption that all casual gamers want to be competitive gamers. That's about as flawed as any logic could ever be. They're casual gamers because they like playing the game casually (fancy that...) and believe it or not, that doesn't equivalate to being inexperienced. Some of us like the game without wavedashing and l-cancelling, not because we can't do those things, but because we enjoy the game better without them. It's not inexperience, it's not a sin, it's an opinion.

 

[flyinfilipino]

What about letting some characters be able to climb the sides of stages? Rather than just the simple wall cling a couple characters have a few might get the ability to actually move up and down essentially while wall clinging. It doesnt necessarily add a new method of recovery, but it does add a new element to the edge game.

That'd actually be kinda cool.

Spoiler

Spiderman for SSB4?

 

[manhunter098]

Well any game could have a setting for casual and competitive gamers. But really I dont see why the same game cant cater to both. Items are really the only thing that casual gamers really want from this game, well that and all the other for fun type setting you can put on a match. But the only thing competitive gamers want is to remove luck from the game as much as possible. And I have to say that if brawl had things like L canceling, and wave dashing, I really dont think that would deter casual gamers AT ALL.

So I dont see why a game cant include deeper elements and be unable to appeal to the casual gamer.


Also to comment on something already said...


Balancing all of the characters perfectly is impossible. You can get them close, but even then it wouldnt be worth the amount of testing required. Overall though I do think that they do need to completely eliminate characters who OBVIOUSLY lag behind and they do need to give every characters at least one good tilt, smash, and 2 good aerials, basically all of those attacks being fast with a good balance of range and priority. Those characters with less range get more priority and those with more range get a bit less priority. Pretty much we shouldnt have characters who end up like Captain Falcon is now.

 

[Big-Cat]

What about letting some characters be able to climb the sides of stages? Rather than just the simple wall cling a couple characters have a few might get the ability to actually move up and down essentially while wall clinging. It doesnt necessarily add a new method of recovery, but it does add a new element to the edge game.

Sounds like it could be broken.

 

[.Marik]

ok first of all, making the gameplay more like melee would not make the game automatically better, and since when did spiking become an advanced technique? do you even play melee competetivley or are you just jumping on the bandwagon?

No, I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon....

Yes, I do play Melee competively, let me explain more of what I meant..

While it may not be a "advanced" method like Wavedashing, it elevates the competitive level of play, making it more fun for advanced players...

On another note, I did not mean Melee exactly. I just prefered Melee's fast-paced action and gameplay over Brawl's more slower style. But in all honesty, besides that small (or rather large, actually) factor, I think Brawl is an excellent game in it's style too. It's more complex, more stages, characters, items etc.. etc... all I'm trying to say is, combine the two games into one, with added and newly improved features, to make it better than ever.

 

[manhunter098]

Sounds like it could be broken.

Well obviously there are restrictions on what you could do in that state, like nothing besides climbing the wall (I decided it should be expanded to include any surface where the angle doesnt permit you to stand on). I mean you could jump off and do an aerial or something, but its not like you could climb the wall fast enough to avoid an attack, I wouldnt see a way for it to be any more broken than wall clinging is now, except wall clinging is not broken at all.