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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Scott!

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Ness and Lucas do not play at all the same. Their B moves are clone-y, but the two most important ones, up-b and b, work decently differently. Lucas's standard attacks, his smashes, tilts, aerials, etc. are pretty much all different from Ness's.

Toon Link is the most clone-like character in Brawl. He's got a few different attacks (dair, up smash, etc.) but they are very similar otherwise. TLink's specials could be completely revamped for SSB4, and he'd be pretty unique then, maybe with some more decloning of attacks.

Also, Tingle would make me sad on the inside. I hate him a lot. Having him as an assist trophy is just better. He can be turned off that way.
 

SirKibble

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Ness and Lucas are very appreciably different. To touch on just the specials, from a Ness player:

PK Flash vs. PK Freeze
These are very obviously different moves. As the only differently-named Special, PK Flash and PK Freeze boast a number of differences. PK Flash packs more power at the cost of mobility and speed. PK Freeze also freezes and has a larger hitbox. Mainly due to power vs. mobility, these two moves have insanely different uses. PK Flash ends up serving as more of an edgeguard move most of the time, while PK Freeze can be used as a precursor to approaches.

PK Fire vs PK Fire
Really, this is pretty obvious as well. Lucas fires his PK Fire spark straight ahead always, making it more convenient against edgeguarders and use during air-to-air combat. Ness fires downward when in the air, making his PK Fire more effective for edgeguarding, and better suited for aerial approaches. Additionally, Lucas' PK Fire is a single, big hit, making it more of an offensive attack, while Ness' pillar is more often a combo starter move.

PK Thunder vs. PK Thunder
Lucas' PK Thunder sacrifices offensive ability for a safer recovery, by passing through opponents, not halting momentum during PK Thunder 2 when he hits opponents, and having a smaller turn radius. Ness' PK Thunder, on the other hand, deals a decent hit and disappears when the projectile is steered into opponents, moves faster than Lucas', and packs a serious punch during PK Thunder 2, at the cost of Ness losing momentum from the impact, as well as the initial projectile having a larger turn radius, making it less maneuverable.

PSI Magnet vs. PSI Magnet
The appreciable differences between these two moves are the least of all Ness and Lucas' Specials. Despite their aesthetic differences, they absorb the same way, though Lucas absorbs more health from moves. Ness also activates his PSI Magnet quicker, and it absorbes over a slightly wider area. Upon release, however, the biggest difference comes: Ness delivers only a slight outward push effect, while Lucas' magnet dissolves in an electric shock that can serve as an offensive move. Because of the angle Lucas' PSI Magnet hits opponents at, this can actually be a decent KO move at higher percentages.


That's not even touching on the Standard Attacks.
 

Jimnymebob

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In all honestly, all my dealings with Ness and Lucas have made them play practically the same. Yes some minor things were different, but overall the same strategies worked and the same ways to get back to the stage, KO opponents work.

and Yes, I forgot Luigi. At least his B moves are definitely more different than Lucas and Ness.
Ness and Lucas are not clones, the only thing that is similar is the way their specials are activated; these have different properties that make them unique.
Lets compare the special moves for these two characters, to highlight the differences. (These are from Aevin's great thread)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149444


Side B


Ness

PK Fire (Forward + B) - (6%, 2%)
A short-ranged projectile which creates a pillar of flame on contact, repeatedly hitting opponents for small damage and producing a stunning effect. In the air, the fire will travel at a 45 degree angle down from Ness. Great for surprise attacks or countering chasing opponents in the air. Also great for ledge guarding, and the stun effect sets up easily for other moves such as grabs, spikes or smash attacks. The initial bolt does 6% damage, the pillar hits each do 2%.
Lucas

PK Fire (Forward + B) - (8%)
Lucas's PK Fire creates a single explosion when it hits, sending the opponent flying away with admirable knock back. Unlike Ness's, it travels straight forward whether in air or on the ground. Great for keeping opponents at a distance, especially when used with B-sticking (covered in advanced strategies).
As you can see here, the first thing that is noticeable is that Ness' PK Fire hits multiple times, and this stuns your opponents, allowing for an approach, or to set up other attacks, something that Lucas can't do as easy, as his PK Fire sends the opponent back in one fire blast. Ness' also travels at a diagonal down angle when in the air, so you can use this to attack opponents directly beneath you, and this allows for Ness to have a safer airgame, and to help fend off up smashers below you, something which Lucas can't do.

Up Specials (cover both versions of the move)


Ness

PK Thunder (Up + B) - (About 8%)
A very quick projectile which can be directed using the controller. On contact, it deals damage and sends the victim upwards. When steering, Ness's thunder can't make very sharp turns, but travels quickly. Unlike Lucas's version, Ness's hits only once before disappearing, unless you "tail whip" opponents by hitting with the trail behind the thunder ball. This stuns them for a second, and can foul up their recovery in certain cases--or aid in yours. Tail-whipping does 1% damage per hit. By steering the thunder into Ness, you can perform the PK Thunder 2.

PK Thunder 2 (Up + B, steered into Ness) - (21-25%)
When PK Thunder is steered into Ness, there's an explosive effect which propels him forward like an electrified human cannonball. This can be used for recovery, or as an attack. This move KOs at low percentages (around 70% in some cases). When used as a recovery move, it has some weaknesses. In Brawl, the tail has been extended, so sometimes when opponents jump at you they'll be stunned, but there's still the danger of them attacking or leaping into the thunder to cancel it, causing Ness to fall to his doom. The initial blast when the thunder first strikes him has armor (invincibility?) frames and KO's as low as 50%, while the later hits of the move KO above about 120%. Hitting projectiles or opponents halves the distance Ness travels, so be careful when using this for recovery.
Lucas

PK Thunder (Up + B) - (About 10%/hit)
A thunder projectile which can be steered using the controller. It travels slowly, but can make sharp turns. When it hits opponents, it stuns them and passes through, enabling it to be curved back around for another hit. The tail whip deals 1% damage. Steering this move into Lucas creates PK Thunder 2.

PK Thunder 2 (Up + B, steered into Lucas) - (8-43%)
When the thunder hits Lucas, he is propelled forward, surrounded by electricity. It can be used for recovery, and goes much farther than Ness's version. Lucas's PKT2 hits multiple times. The first and the last hit can KO at high percentages, and if every hit connects the move does about 43% damage. Lucas's recovery is more difficult to steal, because opponents can't intercept it with their bodies. They can still attack to cancel the thunder, however. By the way, I LOVE hitting with this move! BBZZZZZZZZZZAP!
When using PK thunder normally, Ness can't make it pass through his opponents, meaning he can only score one single hit with this move, unlike Lucas, who can make it go through his opponents. Lucas also has an easier to control PK Thunder, so the multi hit ability combined with the easy steering makes Lucas' better when using it normally.
However, when using PK Thunder 2, it is clear that Ness has the best offensive move, as it deals a single blow that can kill at low percentages depending on where you hit, and it deals good damage, whereas Lucas just scores a multi hit that can deal more damage, but has nowhere near as much KO potential. The downfall to Ness is that it is more easier to intercept, and to gimp, whereas Lucas has an easier time using this move to recover, and if you put his tether into consideration, Lucas does have different recovery options to Ness.

Down B

Ness

PSI Magnet (Down + B)
A field surrounds Ness, absorbing most energy-based projectiles. Comes out much quicker than in Melee, and replenishes 1.5 times the damage the attack would have dealt, but has slightly better range than Lucas's version. The absorption maxes out at 30% per hit. Upon deactivation, it creates a wind effect which can repel projectiles or move certain things a bit. See the advanced strategy section for more on this effect. Psi Magnet can also can be used to stall falling.
Lucas

PSI Magnet (Down B) - (9%)
A field which absorbs energy-based projectiles. In spite of its appearance, this move protects Lucas from all angles. If a projectile is fired from the back, Lucas turns to absorb it, and if he's under fire from both directions, he will still absorb even though he's unable to turn around. Lucas's version has some added advantages over Ness's. It activates and deactivates more quickly, heals 2 times the projectile's damage, and can be used as an attack. The attack activates when the barrier is DEACTIVATED. It's very quick, centered around Lucas's front, and can KO at high percentages. The absorption power maxes out at 30% damage recovery per hit.
The most obvious difference here is that Lucas can use his version of this as an offensive move, something which Ness can't do. However, Ness' barrier has more range, and comes out quick.
This list shows how much each character recovers from absorbing using the Magnet=



Neutral B

Ness

PK Flash (Neutral B) - (9-37%)
A green projectile which can be steered left or right. It explodes in a storm of electricity when the B button is released, and the longer it is out, the more powerful it becomes. At full power, it easily KO's opponents. Uncharged, it sends a quick burst above Ness's head which can be used for protection or juggling.
Lucas

PK Freeze (Neutral B) - (10-19%)
A projectile which can be steered left and right using the controller. When the B button is released, the projectile explodes in a small burst of ice that can freeze opponents. More powerful when out for a longer period of time before detonation. This attack is much faster than Ness's PK Flash, and has greater horizontal distance. This move can KO at high percents, (above 150%).
Ness' neutral B is far more powerful than Lucas', but Lucas' is much more faster, and can also freeze his opponents, but it can't KO as easily as Ness can. Ness can also use it to juggle, and to set up other combos.

There is no point going into standard moves, as most of them are completely different.

EDIT= lol, SirKibble summed it up nicely. Didn't see that there XD.
 

Starphoenix

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The issue comes down to the difference between being a clone and being based on the model of another character.

Clones would probably fit under Toon Link and maybe Falco debatably. The later about being based off another might pertain to Wolf, Luigi, and Lucas.
 

rockem7

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Well...I think it's pretty well set in stone that Ness and Lucas aren't clones. XD
Anyways, I still consider Toon Link somewhat of a clone, and Falco seems to be one to me, but I rarely use him.
 

Shadow13

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The issue comes down to the difference between being a clone and being based on the model of another character.

Clones would probably fit under Toon Link and maybe Falco debatably. The later about being based off another might pertain to Wolf, Luigi, and Lucas.
to me, to be a clone you have to have the same special moves of said character with few differences, luigi wouldn't be, falco, TL would be
 

SirKibble

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If Toon Link's a clone, Falco is. Falco has maybe 2 more moves different from Fox than Toon Link does from Link.
 

bivunit94

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If Toon Link's a clone, Falco is. Falco has maybe 2 more moves different from Fox than Toon Link does from Link.
Falco definitely is still a clone, as is Toon Link, but Falco is way more different from Fox than Toon Link and Link.

Falco's Down Special, Side Special, Forward Smash, Up Smash, and some of his aerials are different from Fox. COMPLETELY different.

Toon Link's boomerang doesn't have a wind effect, and I think he has one (slightly) different Smash or something.

Although Toon Link is more original in the sense of weight and speed compared to Link, the actual attacks are more original for Falco in comparison to Fox, in my opinion.

But who cares, really? They both need to be made more unique...and I've started debates about this in the past, but...I really think Toon Link should just get the boot. :ohwell:

/flameshieldlulz
 

Mythic02

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I still say they are semi clones, but if luigi and wolf get tweaked much more I don't know if I'll count them. Falco is definitely less of a clone than TL, his moves are a bit more different, but they are both very clonish.

I'll give Lucas and Ness as somewhere in between Clone and Luigified clone.

I know CLone is getting a bit hazy in the definition, but it definitely has to do with how similar moves are. NO one is a perfect clone, every character has at least one move there counterpart doesn't. But if you can easily see that moves are very close, they are probably cloned.


Now getting back on Topic. HOw would you feel about more than 4 players per match? Would you want it possible for 6 player matches? How many people would you like per match 4, 6, 8, 10? Do you want smash to stay with the same number because it will get too crowded? And no crap on how "As many slots as the next system can support". This entire thread is speculation so imagine if you could choose how many slots.

Personally I would like 6. I feel 8 would be too crowded, and we could transition to 6 easily.
 

Big-Cat

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Oh, and the reason Krystal is hated on is because she's nowhere near as significant as Falco and Wolf, she's generally agreed to have ruined the franchise and she gets support because of her anatomy.
I'd say that Krystal's up there in terms of siginificance in the Star Fox series. She is the main character in one of the storylines in Command and is often mentioned in the other storylines.

Quite frankly, the Starfox series is inherently full of fetish fuel. All Krystal did with her anatomy was add to it, and Brawl added Leon's sadomasochism.

Basically, she's Fox's love interest, but Falco's Fox's ace pilot (I don't know about best friend. That may apply to Slippy.), and Wolf is Fox's somewhat friendly rival.
 

SirKibble

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Falco definitely is still a clone, as is Toon Link, but Falco is way more different from Fox than Toon Link and Link.

Falco's Down Special, Side Special, Forward Smash, Up Smash, and some of his aerials are different from Fox. COMPLETELY different.

Toon Link's boomerang doesn't have a wind effect, and I think he has one (slightly) different Smash or something.

Although Toon Link is more original in the sense of weight and speed compared to Link, the actual attacks are more original for Falco in comparison to Fox, in my opinion.

But who cares, really? They both need to be made more unique...and I've started debates about this in the past, but...I really think Toon Link should just get the boot. :ohwell:

/flameshieldlulz
I'm a Toon Link main, is the only reason I stay so adament about this topic. Falco's Up Smash is exactly the same as Fox's, though, as is his Side Special.

Toon Link's Specials are clone material, with the arguable exception of the boomerang. His Up Smash is only a single hit, unlike Link's three. The biggest difference for him is in Aerial Attacks, though. His N-Air, F-Air, and B-Air are all very different from Link's, and the use for his D-Air is so different it's worth mentioning. The other differences, while major to actually playing him (his Smashes are designed to combo, and his Specials are all easier to hit with than Link's, having bigger hitboxes / constant damage / slower movement speed), could be chalked up to cloning. Falco's got an appreciably different Neutral and Down Special, as well as the F-Smash, N-Air, F-Air, and D-Air. Not all that much more than TL has.


Sorry, Sleepy. I just get a bit passionate about this topic...


By the way, I think 6 is a good number to aim for next game. Brawl is capable of supporting 6 players, with 2 of them as humans (see 2-Player Multi-Man Brawl), and the characters fit comfortably enough. If stages were made slightly bigger, 6 wouldn't be hard to do at all.
 

Heartz♥

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I personally would like 6 player mode just because I like to have some wild and crazy fun. I lack the competitive mind most Smashers have, so I could care less for left and right spam. This is why I like items and stuff. More funny crap is subject to happen.

Most of the people who don't want 6 are just saying that, really. It doesn't have to effect them at all. If you don't want too much going on, then don't join 6 battles. Simple.
 

migas140

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The only things I want are Megaman, Mewtwo, more Metroid reps, more SEGA reps and more F-Zero reps. Also possibly more female characters.
 

Dual Kirby

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i agree with heartz a 6-way play would be much more fun...the only problem is the 4 controll slots since many people play gamecube. maybe theyll have to make an expansion pack for the wii like they did for ps2 it would be better tho i mean rotation was a great feature...i thinks its possible
 

justaway12

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:goomba: I wouldn't mind 6 players, they might have to make some stages a bit bigger (Smashville) and "with anyone" might be annoying if you want less than 6 player (if anyone goes on that anymore) but I think it would be really fun. :goomba:
 

Heartz♥

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Well I am sure they will develop gimmicks for it. I am not sure if you all heard, but Nintendo has stopped the manufacturing of Gamecube controllers. This only means that if there were to be an upgrade or new Nintendo system, they will begin developing controllers specificly for those who refuse the use of the Wiimote and Nunchuk in gameplay.

Odds are, this controller will be wireless, and where there is wireless, there are more opportunities for extra play.

This also means that this wireless controller will have motion-sensing features along with it, much like the PS3 Axis controller, which copied Nintendo in the first place.
 

Dual Kirby

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i didnt know they stopped production i was in gamestop last weekend and saw a whole bunch...wow depressing news... and i think youre right... im seeing more and more wireless controllers around
 

Heartz♥

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Gamestop has a plethora of them, but Nintendo itself has stopped production. Sooner or later, they will become scarce, and if your Gamecube controller breaks...

:ohwell:
 

Dual Kirby

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better horde a whole bunch the.n... my wave birds served me well but i cant imagine if steve stops working...
 

Starphoenix

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Here is a funny thought. If you could pick one Nintendo series, which series would you think Tabuu would fit best as a boss?

Do you think he would work as a Mario boss? How about Zelda? Kirby? Pokémon (I know, more of a joke)?
 

Big-Cat

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It's pretty obvious: Kirby. From what I've heard, he's virtually identical to Marx in terms of attacks.
 

bivunit94

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I'm a Toon Link main, is the only reason I stay so adament about this topic. Falco's Up Smash is exactly the same as Fox's, though, as is his Side Special.
WHOOPS :X
I was thinking of Wolf's moves...like how side special goes diagonally, and his smashes are different. Haha. :psycho:

Either way, Falco, Wolf, Toon Link, Ganondorf, and even (sort of) Lucas all need to be vastly more original compared to their counterparts.
 

SirKibble

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Tabuu and Marx do share a few moves. They both teleport around a lot, though that's not an altogether uncommon boss technique. Tabuu's giant laser is similar to Marx's "Shoop da Whoop" move. Tabuu's sparkling explosion attack is kind of like a horizontal version of one of Marx's moves (the seed/plant one). They both have an attack involving something swirling around them (Marx's are cutters and Tabuu's are electric balls), and they both have an ultimate move where they attack from the center, though Tabuu's Off Waves are arguably different than Marx's black hole move.

See how much looks similar to Tabuu in this video.
 

sundayseclipse

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it could be 8 seeing 4 wii controlers and 4 gc controlers.
since ssb4 is probably gona be in next gen consule or the one after that depending if sakurai is gona work on ssb4 while working on prodject sora, or ssb4 appointed a new director. if its on the new consule its problably gona be unactive and go backto regular controler. if not idk.

falco lucas and wolf are all clones wiht different simularites so the fans dont get to mad at it. saying that a whole new move set for clones would be awsome and expanding it too would be cool and it would so be worth the wait.

what characters that were made from ssb universe should be playable like tabbu or the little minions. its a stupid subject but idk be kinda cool i guess.

again with the wii mem swap to next nintendo consule. you put wiis mem and upload it to the next gen consule. and itll interact like gba and ds. you can send cut char music and your bio(who your best with..etc) to ssb4
 

SirKibble

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I don't see the similarities... sorry...
They're not extensive, but they're there.

it could be 8 seeing 4 wii controlers and 4 gc controlers.
since ssb4 is probably gona be in next gen consule or the one after that depending if sakurai is gona work on ssb4 while working on prodject sora, or ssb4 appointed a new director. if its on the new consule its problably gona be unactive and go backto regular controler. if not idk.
SSB4 will likely be on the next console Nintendo releases, which I personally doubt will support GCN controllers. The only way the game will support 6 players is if the console supports 6 controllers.
 

sundayseclipse

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]

SSB4 will likely be on the next console Nintendo releases, which I personally doubt will support GCN controllers. The only way the game will support 6 players is if the console supports 6 controllers.
maby not wii ware still is supported by 64 and nes controllers so... maby any way

E3 O9 starts soon and will be big this year and nintendo will announce lots of hardcore games...etc new franchises new games, sequeals, maby a teaser of ssb4 you never know

again with the wii mem swap to next nintendo consule. you put wiis mem and upload it to the next gen consule. and itll interact like gba and ds. you can send cut char music and your bio(who your best with..etc) to ssb4
 

Mythic02

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Hmm, I figured most people would like six. It would be a bit more entertaining in Free for alls, not to mention team matches.

@ wizzerd: Is there a specific reason you want 4, or do you just want it to stay the same.
 

Big-Cat

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maby not wii ware still is supported by 64 and nes controllers so... maby any way

E3 O9 starts soon and will be big this year and nintendo will announce lots of hardcore games...etc new franchises new games, sequeals, maby a teaser of ssb4 you never know

again with the wii mem swap to next nintendo consule. you put wiis mem and upload it to the next gen consule. and itll interact like gba and ds. you can send cut char music and your bio(who your best with..etc) to ssb4
Unless Nintendo pulls a Capcom, don't expect SSB4 or some spinoff. I think the most likely thing in terms of Smash is a Super Smash Bros. Brawl Turbo: The New Challengers, but even that is incredibly unlikely.
 

Wizzerd

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@ wizzerd: Is there a specific reason you want 4, or do you just want it to stay the same.
If you mean four people in a match, then I don't see anything wrong with 6 characters in a match if the console SSB4 is on supports it, but there's no reason to go out of the way to allow it by redesigning stages or whatever.
 

Jimnymebob

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maby not wii ware still is supported by 64 and nes controllers so... maby any way

E3 O9 starts soon and will be big this year and nintendo will announce lots of hardcore games...etc new franchises new games, sequeals, maby a teaser of ssb4 you never know

again with the wii mem swap to next nintendo consule. you put wiis mem and upload it to the next gen consule. and itll interact like gba and ds. you can send cut char music and your bio(who your best with..etc) to ssb4
You can use NES and N64 controllers on WiiWare games?! I never knew that. :ohwell:

How do you know Nintendo will announce lots of hardcore games? All I expect is info on Zelda Spirit Tracks, and possibly Pokemon HG/SS, and maybe something on a new Pikmin, Zelda, and possibly even a new Mario, but I doubt they'll go any further than that. Unless you are counting games from companies such as High Voltage, but I doubt you can call those games important in all honesty, nor are they "hardcore".
And I seriously doubt an SSB4 teaser, it's not even been released for a year in the UK, and only just over a year everywhere else- it was around 4 or 5 years before SSBB was announced, and that was for a new console.

So you mean you transfer your memory to the next console to get cut characters and music, that don't exist, hence them being cut?
Explain please.
 

SirKibble

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Virtual Console games use the Classic controller or GCN controllers in place of NES, SNES, and 64 ones. You can't use any of those controllers to play them.
 

sundayseclipse

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some games u can.
red steal 2 and every one is bagin on nintendo for no hardcore games.
idk about ssb4 teaser just somtin to lift our spirits.

to transfer memory to an sd card to next gen comsule like gc memory card but like gba and ds they can interact. send music trophys stickers, even char that were cut(the con is that ssbb cut char in the game wont be made to look like the ones in ssb4 becuase of the graphics differance) and if they do it right maby send ssbm. maby theyll find a way to scan the texture and update to next gen consules graphics
 
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