[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[BBQTV]

I don't want to be rude, but do you even have any attention span? Pieman clearly said that the only way that Geno gets in would be if Nintendo and SE team up, along with adding their own 3rd party rep for SE. He didn't say anything about them throwing FF reps up the wazoo.

Also, try not to use run-on sentences.

do you have a short attention span?I only named 3 characters.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I am unsure of, though, why you named three random characters, then talked about how they wouldn't get in...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

do you have a short attention span?I only named 3 characters.

Okay, okay, but they're highly unlikely (yes, even Sora).

Anyway, I wonder if the next Smash's poll will allow us to submit ideas for alternate costumes...

 

[Arcadenik]

That's a different case, where the moves are based on their actions, as well as the contents of their games. In addition, I said the use of her animal helpers could be used too, who wouldn't need moves made up for them. The only way this type of borrowing from the series would really work for Toad though is if his moveset was based around the sports games, though that seems like something that would be done for Waluigi (Who for the record has less of a chance than Toad) Additionally, I must restate that I'm not saying that Toad can't get in, but rather that his chances aren't nearly as high as you state they are. Heck, Mona's chances are iffy at best..

Toad can use moves he used in SMB2 and Mario Kart series and borrow moves from the generic Toads in NSMBWii. It is not any different from Ness borrowing Paula's PK specials, Zelda borrowing Link's magic spells from OOT, or even Meta Knight borrowing Kirby's tornado ability and Kirby's up/down throws. And you have to admit that Toad is far, far, far more likely to get in before Mona and even Waluigi.

So he'd use a item, a move that's been done to death already (egg roll, withdraw, Wario Bike, Rollout. Take you pick) Peach's move, and one pottentially creative move that would still probably end up like Snake's' up special. .

You just proved that characters can have similar moves. You just come off sounding like it is not okay for Toad to have some similar moves.

Bowser's Fire Breath, Charizard's Flamethrower

Bowser's Whirling Fortress, Donkey Kong's Spinning Kong, Link's Spin Attack, Samus's Screw Attack, Toon Link's Spin Attack

Bowser's Bowser Bomb, Kirby's Stone, Yoshi's Yoshi Bomb

Diddy Kong's Peanut Popgun, Link's Hero's Bow, Pit's Palutena's Arrow, Zero Suit Samus's Paralyzer, Toon Link's Hero's Bow

Ike's Quick Draw, Jigglypuff's Rollout, Luigi's Green Missile, Pikachu's Skull Bash, Squirtle's Withdraw, Sonic's Spin Dash, Wario's Wario Bike, Yoshi's Egg Roll

Ike's Aether, Kirby's Final Cutter

Ike's Counter, Lucario's Double Team, Marth's Counter

King Dedede's Inhale, Kirby's Inhale

King Dedede's Waddle Dee Throw, Olimar's Pikmin Throw

Lucario's Aura Sphere, Samus's Charge Shot

Mario's Cape, Peach's Toad, Pit's Angel Ring, Pit's Mirror Shield, R.O.B.'s Arm Rotor, Zelda's Nayru's Love

Mario's F.L.U.D.D., Squirtle's Water Gun

Mr. Game & Watch's Fire, Peach's Parasol

Olimar's Pikmin Chain, Ivysaur's Vine Whip, Zero Suit Samus's Plasma Wire

Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon Change, Zelda/Sheik's Transform

Charizard's Fly, Wario's Corkscrew

Samus's Missile, Ivysaur's Razor Leaf

Zero Suit Samus's Plasma Whip, Sheik's Chain

And not as a part of the debate whether Toad would get in or not, but wouldn't a small, fast, and super strong character not be a good idea?.

He would be very light and is not a good jumper to balance that out.

How are Toads more important? Toad was only put into SMB2 as a filler character to take up Papa's space, and since then never was playable in the main games, though it seems two different colored Toads will show up in NSMBWii (Why they didn't just have the normal Toad, and use the 4th slot on Wario or Peach is beyond me) Yoshi wasn't really playable either, seeing as he was just a mount. (Though that did change when he got his own series, which he's represented under) Koopas, Shy Guys, and Goombas (Who I'm not really going to advocate due to the fact that they simply have no arms, but when you mention the other two, you kind of have to include them) are the main flunkies you see in like 90% of Mario games, and are actually active in said games, instead of sitting on the side giving information. Still I guess I shouldn't really comment on this whole thing until more info is given on NSMBWii, since that could be a turning point for Toad, depending on his technical role in it, in relation to the two playable Toads within the game.

Toads are very important to the whole Mario franchise. They help Mario out in many games and they were major NPCs in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, and especially Super Mario Galaxy. Koopas and Shy Guys are just generic enemies who have no important roles in the storylines like Toad and generic Toads do. Yoshis and Toads are the only generic species to be playable outside of spin-off games.

Edit

Actually, he took the son's place. Mario was the one who took Papa's place.

That is incorrect. Toad did replace Papa, not Imajin. Here is the link comparing Doki Doki Panic to Super Mario Bros. 2.

http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb2_ddp.shtml

 

[BBQTV]

I am unsure of, though, why you named three random characters, then talked about how they wouldn't get in...

im an idiot i cant believe i didn't see that

 

[mariorocks64]

I think we should ask nintendo for SSB4

 

[Arcadenik]

I think Nintendo already knows that there are fans who want SSB4. I won't be surprised when after SSB4 comes out, fans will immediately discuss SSB5.

 

[mariorocks64]

after SSB4 comes out, fans will immediately discuss SSB5.

thats unhealthy.
well, lets inform nintendo and tell him to add toad anyway!

 

[Arcadenik]

Yeah, as soon SSB4 comes out, fans will start discussing what was wrong with SSB4 and how Brawl was way better than SSB4... and then when SSB5 comes out, fans will talk about how SSB4 was way better than SSB5... and so on.

 

[mariorocks64]

Yeah, as soon SSB4 comes out, fans will start discussing what was wrong with SSB4 and how Brawl was way better than SSB4... and then when SSB5 comes out, fans will talk about how SSB4 was way better than SSB5... and so on.

thats unhealthy. seriously.


so lets message nintendo anyways.

 

[Zario777]

Toad can use moves he used in SMB2 and Mario Kart series. And you have to admit that Toad is far, far, far more likely to get in before Mona and even Waluigi.

Ok, I did some research on Toad on Mariowiki before I wrote this post. I've played SMB2, and I can't really say that it has four main characters, just four protagonists to choose from (since you can just beat the game with one solid character). In Wario's Woods, I guess that can be said as Toad as a main character (doesn't show any new physical traits instead of the ability to run up walls). And in NSMBW, that isn't the main Toad (like the main Yoshi) that you play as since they are yellow and blue toads. My point with whats been said is that the main Toad hasreally only been a main character once.

I doubt that Toad has a better chance than Waluigi. But, if Toad gets into SSB4 which i really, REALLY don't want, I'll still get the game because I'm not some homo who gets upset over a dropplet of milk spilled (I really didnt want Sonic in Brawl for who knows why, but Sonic is 1 of my 2 [the other being CF] joke characters that I play as).

P.S @ BBQTV: You dont have 2 use all of the punctuations, but PLEASE at least use periods. I
had a hard time following this: ↓

pieman said something hypothetical like SE joining nintendo if they do we see ff reps over geno by a mile maybe sora if cloud is in the game he would be an ike and thats pointless if sephiroth was in he might be top tier because of his swords reach and depending on how fast he is if you respond dont be a jerk

 

[BG3]

Yeah, as soon SSB4 comes out, fans will start discussing what was wrong with SSB4 and how Brawl was way better than SSB4... and then when SSB5 comes out, fans will talk about how SSB4 was way better than SSB5... and so on.

This is untrue. This isn't even a pattern to begin with. As soon as SSBM came out, millions of smash fans said how it was way better than SSB64. Not many people said that SSB64 was superior to Melee as people are saying with Brawl. Brawl, according to general smash fan reaction, was the first disappointing game in the series. Every other installment was generally recieved well. If SSB4 comes out, and people immediately start saying why Brawl was better and then just discuss SSB5, then I guess you will be right. But right now, we cannot say that this is a definite pattern that the fans follow.

 

[.WC.]

This is untrue. This isn't even a pattern to begin with. As soon as SSBM came out, millions of smash fans said how it was way better than SSB64. Not many people said that SSB64 was superior to Melee as people are saying with Brawl. Brawl, according to general smash fan reaction, was the first disappointing game in the series. Every other installment was generally recieved well. If SSB4 comes out, and people immediately start saying why Brawl was better and then just discuss SSB5, then I guess you will be right. But right now, we cannot say that this is a definite pattern that the fans follow.

People always said they didn't want a second Melee, and yet still nobody has quit their *****ing about Brawl sucking in comparison to Melee because it's a completely different engine. I can't say I disagree, though. The fast-paced fighter provided by Melee was awesome.

 

[bleyva]

This is untrue. This isn't even a pattern to begin with. As soon as SSBM came out, millions of smash fans said how it was way better than SSB64. Not many people said that SSB64 was superior to Melee as people are saying with Brawl. Brawl, according to general smash fan reaction, was the first disappointing game in the series. Every other installment was generally recieved well. If SSB4 comes out, and people immediately start saying why Brawl was better and then just discuss SSB5, then I guess you will be right. But right now, we cannot say that this is a definite pattern that the fans follow.

Melee was a flash in the pan success that NO ONE saw coming. knowing how sakurai is, you can rest assured there will NEVER be another smash game with its depth.

until nintendo lets up on the whole "5 year olds and soccer moms are the future of gaming" attitude, i can guaratee you every new installment of smash will be a shell of its former self.

 

[Zario777]

How come whenever I post, som1 posts right after me saying something else, then ppl go off of that post and miss all of the previous posts I make. (I'm only upset because they arent quick replies, but semi paragraphs.)

 

[lordvaati]

Melee was a flash in the pan success that NO ONE saw coming. knowing how sakurai is, you can rest assured there will NEVER be another smash game with its depth.

until nintendo lets up on the whole "5 year olds and soccer moms are the future of gaming" attitude, i can guaratee you every new installment of smash will be a shell of its former self.

that mostly won't happen.

in the N64 and GC era, Nintendo ONLY Marketed to the hardcore crowd, but both systems did very poorly, especially the GC. even when they were making "hardcore" games only, people still labeled them to kiddy. So Nintendo started Marketing to everyone in order to avoid ending up like Sega. and it worked. and this year they appeased their fans with new Nintendo games...yet they still complained. it's the FANS who put this label on them-Nintendo never abandoned them, they just keep thinking they did.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

How come whenever I post, som1 posts right after me saying something else, then ppl go off of that post and miss all of the previous posts I make. (I'm only upset because they arent quick replies, but semi paragraphs.)

^^ lol they just did it again

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I doubt that Toad has a better chance than Waluigi.

Toad:
- Most popular out of all the currently non-playable Mario characters
- Appears in almost every main Mario game, playable in two

Waluigi:
- Hated by a significant number of Mario fans
- Only appears in spinoffs


Sorry, I can't ignore this.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Toad:
- Most popular out of all the currently non-playable Mario characters
- Appears in almost every main Mario game, playable in two

Waluigi:
- Hated by a significant number of Mario fans
- Only appears in spinoffs


Sorry, I can't ignore this.

Toad over Waluigi, duh

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Toad over Waluigi, duh

Yet some people here don't believe that he'll make it in. Paradox, anyone?

 

[mariorocks64]

lets tell nintendo to make SSB4

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

lets tell nintendo to make SSB4

For Palutena's sake, mariorocks64, will you please be patient!? Sakurai's got other things to do at the moment.

I mean, really. Don't you want to wait and see how Smash will look once it's made for the next console (which will most likely come in a few years)? You should play some other games to keep you waiting, especially with the upcoming ones (Sin & Punishment 2, No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle, Metroid: Other M, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, etc).

Just stop pestering us with this. Please.

 

[Zario777]

Toad:
- Most popular out of all the currently non-playable Mario characters
- Appears in almost every main Mario game, playable in two

Waluigi:
- Hated by a significant number of Mario fans
- Only appears in spinoffs


Sorry, I can't ignore this.

Ty, I'm glad you couldn't ignore it. Puts a smile on my face even tho u r dissagreeing with me.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Yet some people here don't believe that he'll make it in. Paradox, anyone?

Hey now, you can consider a character "most likely for that series" and still think they won't get in.

I personally don't think any new Mario characters will be added. Everyone here seems to think we absolutely need to have someone for some reason.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Hey now, you can consider a character "most likely for that series" and still think they won't get in.

I personally don't think any new Mario characters will be added. Everyone here seems to think we absolutely need to have someone for some reason.

Well, that's fair enough. I'd be pleasantly surprised if Sakurai proved us wrong, though.

If there is a series that needs a new character, though, it's F-Zero. The captain's been lonely for 3 games in a row, so Samurai Goroh needs to join the party at some point.

 

[Pieman0920]

I think Mona's the most likely, but I do consider her chances getting in as somewhat slim. I also think Goroh is the most likely F-Zero canidate, but know there's a distinct possibility he won't get in. Also there's Krystal who is the next best Star Fox character, yet probably won't make it in. Heck, its pretty much known for a fact that not all series will get a extra character in the next game, even if they aren't the old one game retro ones. Look at the Yoshi series. You could debate till the cows come home about Kamek's part in the series, or Baby Mario's significance, and you may be right that they are the most likely, but in the end, we all know the Yoshi series probably won't get in.

Buuuttt....I do think that the Mario series will get a new character. It has at least three valid characters to choose from, and is one of the front runners in terms of the amount of characters slots a series can have. The fact that Brawl didn't expand the series actually strengthens the chances that something will happen in the next game.

Actually, he took the son's place. Mario was the one who took Papa's place.

Mario Wiki says Papa is Toad, and Imajin is Mario though. :V

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I think that none of the major series should get any new characters, becuase basically it will just look silly. Outside of Star Fox, maybe, and Pokemon (So i guess I am mainly targeting LoZ and Mario here) having 4 major characters and an obscurity for the sake of an obscurity just doesn't seem logical when there are unrepped series who needs reps. Espically by SSB4 when there will be more series to rep and more becoming possible for a retro representation.

DonkeyKong has it's two main protagonoists repped and would only seem "alright" if K. Rool was the next and only rep.

Starfox has three reps, which may be too many, Fox and Wolf are the only neccessary ones IMO

Pokemon will never seem obscure with its choices as Jigglypuff still exists and she is as random as it gets at this point, tha and most pokemon don't have a huge role importance over any other.

 

[mariorocks64]

If little mac is included in SSB4 as a playable character, I will master his moves

 

[n88]

Melee was a flash in the pan success that NO ONE saw coming. knowing how sakurai is, you can rest assured there will NEVER be another smash game with its depth.

until nintendo lets up on the whole "5 year olds and soccer moms are the future of gaming" attitude, i can guaratee you every new installment of smash will be a shell of its former self.

Did you know that early builds of Brawl played much more like Melee than the final product? This means that somewhere along the line, they severely changed hte physics. Why? I seriously doubt it's because Sakurai's trying to screw over competitives. If I had to guess, I would point at Wi-Fi. I find it very likely that Brawl's physics got nerfed to be more compatible w/Wi-Fi (You seriously think that the Wi-Fi can handle something w/Melee-speed?) and so noobs on Wi-Fi didn't get their ***es handed to them by massive amounts of competitives. That's speculation, of course.

@Shino
More characters will be added because Smash is not the Nintendo House of Representatives. Popular characters get in.

 

[Pieman0920]

I think that none of the major series should get any new characters, becuase basically it will just look silly. Outside of Star Fox, maybe, and Pokemon (So i guess I am mainly targeting LoZ and Mario here) having 4 major characters and an obscurity for the sake of an obscurity just doesn't seem logical when there are unrepped series who needs reps. Espically by SSB4 when there will be more series to rep and more becoming possible for a retro representation.

DonkeyKong has it's two main protagonoists repped and would only seem "alright" if K. Rool was the next and only rep.

Starfox has three reps, which may be too many, Fox and Wolf are the only neccessary ones IMO

Pokemon will never seem obscure with its choices as Jigglypuff still exists and she is as random as it gets at this point, tha and most pokemon don't have a huge role importance over any other.

You do know though that more people probably know who Bowser Jr, Toad, Waluigi, and Daisy are than K.Rool though, right? Perhaps Geno, Count Bleck, Wart, or Rudy the Clown are obscure, but outside of Geno, no one's really pushing them. I guess there's a argument in oversaturating a series, and having to come up with less prominent characters, but for the most part, they aren't obscure.

In any case, I just don't see the next game not expanding the Mario/Zelda series, while expanding the pre-established lesser series, since for the most part they are less popular, and have fewer things to work with. They are two of Nintendo's best selling series, and it only makes sense to let them have more representation as far as characters go, since more people recognize and enjoy them.

Plus, the claims that Pokemon is taking over Smash would actually be somewhat validated if the Mario/Zelda series stayed still, while the Pokemon series increased again.

 

[.WC.]

SSB4 needs some more villain characters. Bowser Jr, Black Shadow, Vaati, K. Rool.... all good characters, too. I personally don't see Goroh getting in, either. He's better as an assist trophy.

Plus, the claims that Pokemon is taking over Smash would actually be somewhat validated if the Mario/Zelda series stayed still, while the Pokemon series increased again.

Well you can probably bet Mewtwo is going to return.

Starfox has three reps, which may be too many, Fox and Wolf are the only neccessary ones IMO

Krystal is awesome, and SSB needs more female reps.

 

[Pieman0920]

We're not going to get villains for the sake of villains or females for the sake of females, and along those lines, a series rep simply for the sake of a series rep. While Bowser Jr. and *shudders* K.Rool may be villains, they also have a large enough amount of support from the fans to make them pottentially included. Black Shadow and Vaati though...not so much. (And Goroh is so much better pick than Black Shadow for a playable spot it isn't funny. Heck, the only valid reason for BS is pretty much to give Ganondorf a non-clone moveset. If you want someone to take over the AT spot, you could very well give it to Pico. Still, as I said, a new series rep for the sake of a new series rep shouldn't happen, so Goroh may not show up anyhow)

Also I really doubt Mewtwo will return, given the likely circumstanes of his cut from Brawl.

 

[n88]

I hate to say it again, but please keep the following in mind:

We do not need another [Insert character group] for the sake of having another [Same character group].

It's just not a good justification for adding characters. Characters should get in for one of two reasons:
1) Popularity
2) Significance

Not because they are female/a villain/a Pokemon from an unrepped gen/whatever.

@Pieman
Mewtwo was a cut character in both the original and in Brawl. Sakurai clearly likes him, and there's no reason for him not to return. I seriously doubt Sakurai's just going to give up on a character because he didn't have time to get him into the game.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

You do know though that more people probably know who Bowser Jr, Toad, Waluigi, and Daisy are than K.Rool though, right? Perhaps Geno, Count Bleck, Wart, or Rudy the Clown are obscure, but outside of Geno, no one's really pushing them. I guess there's a argument in oversaturating a series, and having to come up with less prominent characters, but for the most part, they aren't obscure.

In any case, I just don't see the next game not expanding the Mario/Zelda series, while expanding the pre-established lesser series, since for the most part they are less popular, and have fewer things to work with. They are two of Nintendo's best selling series, and it only makes sense to let them have more representation as far as characters go, since more people recognize and enjoy them.

Plus, the claims that Pokemon is taking over Smash would actually be somewhat validated if the Mario/Zelda series stayed still, while the Pokemon series increased again.

I didn't mean obscure as nobody knowing them, I meant they don't matter.

K. Rool is the main antogonist been in a crapload of games and is the Bowser/Ganon of DK, so rightfully should be in. All of the characters you named for Mario are unnessecary and fetured as "main characters" in the sports and spin offs.

Let's look at the two series:

Mario-Main Protagonist

Luigi- Considered to be as important as Mario, as a game of his own, playable since way back int he day

Peach- A few agmes of her own, damsel in distress, major popularity, Mario's "girl"

Bowser- Main antagonist

Now for your character canididates

Toad- I'll leave this since you have arged him already

Waluigi- playabel in sports, hated by basically everyone

Daisy- Created for the sole sake of Luigi having a peach and peach having a partners in sports games
---
LoZ

Link: Main protagonists, in every no Tingle game of the series

Zelda: Link's Peach (same reasons peach was involved minus playablitly)

Ganondorf: Main antagonists, featured enemy in nearly every (if not every) game

Toon Link: The hero of the new genration of games which seems to be establishing a hold on the series
---

Vaati- an enemy in 3 games

Midna- A Slighlty upgraded verion of the annoying fairies of the older games

As for pokemon, I don;t think they need any more representation, it just wouldn' be as surprising or annoying if they did.

 

[.WC.]

We're not going to get villains for the sake of villains or females for the sake of females, and along those lines, a series rep simply for the sake of a series rep. While Bowser Jr. and *shudders* K.Rool may be villains, they also have a large enough amount of support from the fans to make them pottentially included. Black Shadow and Vaati though...not so much. (And Goroh is so much better pick than Black Shadow for a playable spot it isn't funny. Heck, the only valid reason for BS is pretty much to give Ganondorf a non-clone moveset. If you want someone to take over the AT spot, you could very well give it to Pico. Still, as I said, a new series rep for the sake of a new series rep shouldn't happen, so Goroh may not show up anyhow)

Also I really doubt Mewtwo will return, given the likely circumstanes of his cut from Brawl.

True, true. I used to prefer Goroh, but meh. Seeing he only got an assist trophy, I doubt there are going to be ANY new F-Zero reps.

Mewtwo's character data was found incomplete on the brawl disk. So he was probably cut only due to time restraints.

 

[n88]

@Shino
You left Bowser Jr. off your list of Mario candidates. He's been a secondary antagonist of every major Mario game since his creation, except for NSMB, in which he was the primary antagonist, so he meets your requirements there, I should think. But you're really understimating the popularity factor. Smash is not the Nintendo House of Representatives. It's a game for people to whomp the s**t out of each other with their favorite characters.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Then by that logic Geno should get in, he has a lot of popularit, no?

And didn;t you yourself say a characte shoudlnt; get in soley on being a villain?

 

[Pieman0920]

The fact that the Mario characters popularity is such that they are more well known than K.Rool should still speak loads for them anyways. Still, its not like if the Mario series gets a new character added to them that it automatically makes it so that the Donkey Kong series can't get one too.

EDIT: Geno is a totally different case, since he doesn't actually have any real significance to the series/is third party for a company with much more popular characters) Plus Geno's popularity mostly comes from the internet crowd, while the mainstream fans probably have no idea who he is.

Also in regards to Mewtwo, if Sakurai really favored him, he would have gotten in instead of Jiggs. Still, do we really have any official list of characters who were intended, yet cut from the original? Last I heard, it was Meowth who was pottentially going to get into that game. (And quite frankly would have made more sense in the long run than Jiggs)

 

[BG3]

that mostly won't happen.

in the N64 and GC era, Nintendo ONLY Marketed to the hardcore crowd, but both systems did very poorly, especially the GC. even when they were making "hardcore" games only, people still labeled them to kiddy. So Nintendo started Marketing to everyone in order to avoid ending up like Sega. and it worked. and this year they appeased their fans with new Nintendo games...yet they still complained. it's the FANS who put this label on them-Nintendo never abandoned them, they just keep thinking they did.

They didn't ONLY market to the hardcore crowd, some games were fairly accessible for casuals. I'm still not sure as to how the GC sold so bad, it's still a question to me. Also, the N64 sold great, what are you talking about? About all Nintendo fans can probably agree that the N64 was Nintendo's best era of gaming. Also, they didn't appease to new fans. They only have new fans with the trail of 5 year olds and soccer moms they currently have with the Wii. Their NEW nintendo games are generally agreed by fans that they are not as superior as their GC/N64 counterparts. Compare Ocarina of Time and TP, Compare Super Mario 64 to Galaxy, see my point? Fans had a right to complain with the way Nintendo has been treating them for the past few years with the Wii. They completely stabbed them in the back with this wave of casual s***. They only care about their money, not with their true fans who played a major part in getting Nintendo to where they are. And with a company that has no intention of going back to their old successful ways, why should a hardcore gamer support Nintendo?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

@Pieman: You were right about Toad replacing Doki Doki Panic's Papa (I even saw the main illustration for both games, in order to compare). My mistake. :embarrass