[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Metal Reeper]

Please Nintendo, don't leave Geno out this time!

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Toise
New players does equal more advanced players, but I (Personally) feel that a greater number of advanced players isn't nessicarily a good thing when the competetive value is overall lower.

The other thing by makign a "simpler" game is the adverse and rather frustrating things people invent to make it more competetive. With the general physics of Smash (regardless of fast/slow) there are a wolrd of AT's that result from reaching metagame. In Brawl the "general Techs wre removed (Wavedash, L cancel, etc.) the one's any character could to and could eb applied to all of the characters. Instead, most players will find a list of AT's that apply only to their character. This makes the competetive scene harder to get in to, and makes the schism bigger.

A paraphrase of the guide to competetive Link player: "If you want to play Link well, you have to be good at anticipating your foe's movements, and memorizing A LOT of AT's"

I just thought it'd be intresting to note that by attempting to make the game simpler and more accessible for everyone to lessen the schism between competetives and cauals, it's actually being made wider.

Not sure if the schism you refer to is about skill or relations, but if you're talking about the skill difference, it doesn't matter how simple the game appears at first. Competitive players will always, always dig deep into the game to find as many tricks as they can to win. That's inevitable as long as they love the game (and it's not really a problem).


If you're talking about the relations between the two, I'm not worried about what the competitive scene thinks because of how tiny it is. It's rather one-sided; the overwhelming majority of casuals don't even know competitive players exist. That doesn't mean the game can't be designed so that competitives can enjoy it as well, it just means that casuals take priority.

Of course most of the people here are rather hostile to the idea that they're not the apple of Nintendo's eye, but them's the breaks. People here seem to be making the most of it though.


Now, I could be wrong on this, but the complaints you have seem to be addressed to the more stark differences between the cast at the highest level of play (in terms of how difficult it is to master them). I don't think this is a bad thing if it simply means more competitive playstyles and possibly a variety in character choice.

If you're complaining about how certain characters/playstyles require a considerable amount of effort just to be middle tier or so (compared to someone like Meta Knight), well that's a matter of character balance rather than simplicity of the overall physics. That's another discussion.

@Toise...again
The only thing i dislike about the auto-recovery, is that people won't see it a learning tool, like training wheels or a Tee, they see it as the way the game is to be played. While it's not inheritantly bad to play different ways (I don't mind casual outlook) but when the game is altered to the point where it's intent is lost, I have to say no.

People wouldn't bother learning to recover on their own, they would just leave auto-recovery on forever, and never learn how to play like the game is intended to be played. (The other reason I don't like this is because eventually more and more things will be given auto-___ features)_

Consider a few things:

1. If people want to play the game with certain settings on everytime, that's perfectly fine. It's no different than people who only play with items off or people who only do stamina battles.

2. This is probably the only viable auto-anything feature available since it doesn't take control away from the player.


My interpretation of it has you returning slowly back to the stage (think a slower but indefinite version of Pit's Up+B). If you're fighting against someone aggressive enough to attack you on the way back, you're actually less safe than you would be if you recovered normally because now you're wide open.

Alternatively, the game could have you return to a specified spot on the stage instantly, but you're still open for a bit. Something a little more like Mario Kart when Lakitu rescues you and you have to start accelerating again.


Notice that either way, you're still vulnerable when you do this, so it's hardly advantageous to rely on it entirely if you're opponent is aggressive enough. All that happens is the game puts less focus on defensive recovery and more on actual combat. In that sense, it's not much different than having Automatic and Manual drift in Mario Kart.

A pessimist can view it as obsession. :embarrass

Kinda scary even. Not trying to play Sour Sally but yeah, that's pretty weird.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Please Nintendo, don't leave Geno out this time!

I never got why people like Geno so much.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Think it has to be...

- Strongest character in the party
- Association with a good game
- Cool weapon design
- Ending that made people cry

...probably.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Not to seem like a downer or anything, but one foregner coming in and saying that the company should pursue a course of action that loads of other fans have probably asked them to do is sort of pointless in my eyes. I mean SE must already know that the possibility exists, though as of now since there is no next game in development its even more pointless than usual.

It's worth a try, and It's far better than sitting here just thinking about it. We have to take action when it comes to Third-Parties, as the Nintendo Series will handle themselves.

Edit: Proof here.

Now then, where was I?

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Think it has to be...

- Strongest character in the party

- Association with a good game
Geno? Nahhhhh.....
- Cool weapon design
Okay, that might be part of the reason
- Ending that made people cry
I've never seen the super mario rpg ending.
...probably.
Are you being sarcastic?

Comments in this color.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Comments in this color.

-Nope. GENO WHIRL.
-Yep.
-Yep.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzrVOwkRYFU - There.

And edited my post. Seriously people, Third-Parties aren't like the regular series. These ones are usually pushed by fan request or developers wants. If we're more vocal now, who knows what the future holds in store?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

- Geno is the strongest character in the party because of his attack power/speed/Geno Boost; Bowser's actually the worst
- People tend to remember most of the stuff in that game rather fondly
- Arm cannons and lasers are cool
- Well there's YouTube, but you'd be better off playing the game first; the ending itself is about 12 minutes long though
- Sarcasm is for 12 year olds and bad internet jokes

At any rate, I like him, but I still consider him overrated by most internet folks.


@Koops: I've always considered Geno to be a first party character that just happens to need SE's permission, so in my mind he follows the same rules as any other Mario character.

 

[Arcadenik]

Please, no Geno. He does not deserve to be playable in Smash. He is a minor Mario character who was in one game (cameos don't count). Adding Geno would seriously misrepresent the Mario series. It is like adding Wart or Tatanga. By the time SSB4 comes out in 2012-13, Geno would be a 16-17 year old obscure Mario character. Why should an obscure minor Mario character who had appeared in one Mario game become playable in Smash before iconic recurring major Mario characters who had appeared in 10-50+ Mario games like Toad and Bowser Jr.?

I remember someone made a post about misrepresenting the series somewhere in this thread. He had examples that went something like this:

Properly represented
- Donkey Kong
- Diddy Kong
- Dixie Kong
- King K. Rool

Misrepresented
- Donkey Kong
- Diddy Kong
- Donkey Kong Jr.
- Stanley the Bugman

Geno would seriously misrepresent the Mario series. Geno is better suited for an AT role like the other minor Mario characters like Lakitu, Hammer Bro, and Waluigi (and Rosalina, too, if we go by the hacked data).

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

That could've been anyone.

 

[Arcadenik]

So that was your post, Toise. But yeah, that is the post I was talking about.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Mario characters who had appeared in 10-50+ Mario games like Toad and Bowser Jr.?

Personally, to be extremely honest (Be noted: I had Bowser Jr and Geno on that pic roster), Toad and Bowser Jr have only had such few roles as well and nobody was really added to fill in the Doc's void, thus leading me to believe that we don't really "Need" Any of them. Really, Toad's had a role...20 Years ago? Oh and some roles in NSMBWii and Wario Woods. Bowser Jr had...Sunshine? Rest is really pretty minor for the most part.

But my point on third-parties wasn't about geno. It was actually aiming towards in general. If we want Black Mage or Chocobo & Slime/Slime on Chocobo/etc then It's not really importance that will stagger them in; It's fan request. If I don't act now about Square Enix then who will? If nobody did that april fools article about Sonic & Tails, would we really have sonic in brawl right now?

@Toise: "I've always considered Geno to be a first party character that just happens to need SE's permission, so in my mind he follows the same rules as any other Mario character. "

See: That's the thing. We have no idea what Sakurai himself would consider him as. Sakurai could go "That's unimportant. I'll just add some music tracks however" Or Sakurai could go "wow fans really want this guy and i like him, guess I'll ask Square since I'm already doing a deal for Chocobo to be in"

Of course, as personally said before, I only want him under the condition that Square gets an "Actual" Character to represent them.

 

[Pieman0920]

Bowser Jr. has actually had major roles since Sunshine. He's pretty much the main antagonist of NSMB and NSMBWii and did have a fairly major role in Galaxy. People have been able to generally agree on the little guy because Nintendo has been pushing him a lot since his first apperance. Toad's a bit different, since he has become less and less important, but I guess there are those two toads in NSMBWii.

And the speculation that Sakurai will just choose Geno because he's Sakurai is flawed in of itself, because by that logic Sakurai could do anything. We have no idea if he wants to work with SE or if SE wants to work with him, and we have no idea if he'll even pick a Chocobo. Maybe his favorite FF was VII, and he decideds that Cloud's apperance in KH for the GBA is enough to allow him in. Maybe he does like SMRPG, but instead of liking Geno the most, it turns out Mallow was his favorite character. Really if you throw around the argument that Sakurai himself may favor one thing, you also have to consider that he may favor the other, because in the end we just don't know all too much about the guy.

And on Geno's popularity, there's just something about the guy/puppet/star/thing. I never have been one to actually think that he could get into a Smash game, but he's still pretty much my favorite character from that game. Perhaps though Exdeath, you have something inside you that is immune to Geno's charm. :V

 

[justaway12]

Comments in this color.

Mario w/ lazy shell > Peach w/ frying pan > Bowser in terms of power.

If people don't count Geno whirl, since it only works on common enemies and that exor then I don't think he is the strongest, he probably is if you do count it.

Mario characters who had appeared in 10-50+ Mario games like Toad and Bowser Jr.?

Toad only had three, unless your counting spin-offs, Bowser jr. had <10 even if you're counting spin-offs, I think.

Well, unless you count, "I'm sorry but your princess is in another castle"
and unimportant, minor apperance like that

I do think Bowser jr. should be in there though, just sayin'...

@Koopa: You forgot SMB.2
It's still an official game even if it isn't the real SMB.2

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@Justaway12: The role I'm talking about IS SMB2.

Also oh god your princess is in another castle ;_;

Bowser Jr. has actually had major roles since Sunshine. He's pretty much the main antagonist of NSMB and NSMBWii and did have a fairly major role in Galaxy. People have been able to generally agree on the little guy because Nintendo has been pushing him a lot since his first apperance. Toad's a bit different, since he has become less and less important, but I guess there are those two toads in NSMBWii.

Galaxy - Yay! Mini-Boss!
NSMB/Wii - I won't comment on these since I haven't played them much but isn't bowser the true main antagonist?

Anyways; Yeah, a few games of a major role...3? The two are not really at a "Peak" Level unlike the 7 mario characters already in (Yes, If you're going to throw in Spin-Offs, Yoshi/DK/Wario still do stuff there as well.) I'm still not even getting why people consider "5TH MARIO CHARACTER" A shoe-in when Sakurai seems to have ignored that in brawl (Despite having a perfect entry scene too) - Seriously, how many people asides from Toise, FMOI, and I think It's possible to just leave it as is the next game?

Of course, on the contrary, I would like Jr and wouldn't mind him in.

And the speculation that Sakurai will just choose Geno because he's Sakurai is flawed in of itself, because by that logic Sakurai could do anything. We have no idea if he wants to work with SE or if SE wants to work with him, and we have no idea if he'll even pick a Chocobo. Maybe his favorite FF was VII, and he decideds that Cloud's apperance in KH for the GBA is enough to allow him in. Maybe he does like SMRPG, but instead of liking Geno the most, it turns out Mallow was his favorite character. Really if you throw around the argument that Sakurai himself may favor one thing, you also have to consider that he may favor the other, because in the end we just don't know all too much about the guy.

Oh, I'm not saying he would but we don't really know how he would treat Geno If he considered him. He could very well treat Geno like a mario character, and thinking that geno isn't "Worthy" Enough, Or he could also think the opposite.

But with what we have, I would say It's the first one. (AKA: Probably what toise said.)

...Tho, to be fair, I wouldn't actually mind Cloud. If he appeared more often on a nintendo console, maybe people would have less hate on him in Smash.

 

[Arcadenik]

Actually, we got a new Mario character in Brawl and his name is Wario. Wario is a Mario character who has his own series just like Yoshi. That's why they have their own world icons. In fact, if we follow the Melee poll we can see that Toad is next in line after Bowser, Peach, and Wario (and he was grouped with Mario and Yoshi characters). Toad also have a good chance of becoming playable in SSB4 because of the playable Toads in NSMBWii.

Before anyone uses the "but he is generic!" argument against Toad's inclusion, I want to point out that Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and all Pokemon (except Mewtwo) are generic. As to why they were chosen to be playable, here are my reasons:

Yoshi: represents all the Yoshis in Mario and Yoshi games, mascot/protagonist of Yoshi series, one of the recognizable faces of the Mario series (also one of the Mario Big Eight), one of the two generic species to be playable in Mario main games

Mr. Game & Watch: represents all the characters in Game & Watch series, mascot of Game & Watch series

R.O.B.: represents all the Famicom Robots (Japan) and Robotic Operating Buddies (everywhere), mascot/peripheral of Gyromite and Stack-Up

Pikachu: represents all the Pikachu in the series, mascot of the franchise, main Pokemon in the anime

Jigglypuff: represents all the Jigglypuff in the series, second most popular Pokemin in Japan (where is the proof?)

Lucario: represents all the Lucario in the series, star of the latest Pokemon movie at the time Brawl was being developed

Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard: represents all the 1st gen starters and starters in general, represents the evolution stages, Red is the original protagonist of the series (and loosely represents Ash Ketchum in the anime) and he represents all the Pokemon Trainers in general

The playable Toad in SSB4 can represent all the Toads in Mario series and Toad is one of the recognizable faces of the Mario series (also one of the Mario Big Eight). Just like Yoshis, Toads are the other generic species to be playable outside of Mario spin-off games.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Actually, we got a new Mario character in Brawl and his name is Wario. Wario is a Mario character who has his own series just like Yoshi. That's why they have their own world icons.

Yeah, but did we get a new one that filled in that 5th mushroom hole? Nope. Have Bowser Jr and Toad done much in the platformers/'Main Games'? Uh...1 game. Overall in the series? 4 Major roles for Bowser Jr (If you count RPG's he did help his dad in PiT) 3 For toad.

In fact, if we follow the Melee poll we can see that Toad is next in line after Bowser, Peach, and Wario (and he was grouped with Mario and Yoshi characters).

...And that's just in votes...
...On a poll that happened like 8 years ago along with newer polls to pick by...

Toad also have a good chance of becoming playable in SSB4 because of the playable Toads in NSMBWii.

Funny; One role.

With that said, not much has really happened after brawl to be "Mind Changing" to this gigantic series. Toad and Bowser Jr do have a pretty decent shot, but still, do people consider the possibility of it being left alone this time around asides from me and two others mentioned in a previous post? Heck, I'm starting to wonder where this whole term of you going "THE BIG EIGHT" Is coming from.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Actually, we got a new Mario character in Brawl and his name is Wario. Wario is a Mario character who has his own series just like Yoshi. That's why they have their own world icons. In fact, if we follow the Melee poll we can see that Toad is next in line after Bowser, Peach, and Wario (and he was grouped with Mario and Yoshi characters). Toad also have a good chance of becoming playable in SSB4 because of the playable Toads in NSMBWii.

We actually didn't get a new Mario character. I know what you're saying, but call Wario for what he is in Brawl, a WarioWare character.

As for Toad, I don't know. Toads were playable in NSMB Wii, yes, but not the Toad. I'm not even sure if his chances shifts because of that.

Before anyone uses the "but he is generic!" argument against Toad's inclusion, I want to point out that Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and all Pokemon (except Mewtwo) are generic.

*Reasons*

I think the fact that Yoshi, Mr. G&W, and R.O.B represents their own games in Smash Bros. makes their inclusion sensible. Pokemon, though generic, I believe are special or exceptions in this regard.

But I'm not using this against his inclusion. I wouldn't mind him being playable, but I just don't see it happening. Perhaps Sakurai shares similar sentiments, which is why he reduced the Toad to a mere shield. He would've made him playable otherwise while he still had the little relevance he had back then.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Not sure if the schism you refer to is about skill or relations, but if you're talking about the skill difference, it doesn't matter how simple the game appears at first. Competitive players will always, always dig deep into the game to find as many tricks as they can to win. That's inevitable as long as they love the game (and it's not really a problem).


If you're talking about the relations between the two, I'm not worried about what the competitive scene thinks because of how tiny it is. It's rather one-sided; the overwhelming majority of casuals don't even know competitive players exist. That doesn't mean the game can't be designed so that competitives can enjoy it as well, it just means that casuals take priority.

Of course most of the people here are rather hostile to the idea that they're not the apple of Nintendo's eye, but them's the breaks. People here seem to be making the most of it though.


Now, I could be wrong on this, but the complaints you have seem to be addressed to the more stark differences between the cast at the highest level of play (in terms of how difficult it is to master them). I don't think this is a bad thing if it simply means more competitive playstyles and possibly a variety in character choice.

If you're complaining about how certain characters/playstyles require a considerable amount of effort just to be middle tier or so (compared to someone like Meta Knight), well that's a matter of character balance rather than simplicity of the overall physics. That's another discussion.





Consider a few things:

1. If people want to play the game with certain settings on everytime, that's perfectly fine. It's no different than people who only play with items off or people who only do stamina battles.

2. This is probably the only viable auto-anything feature available since it doesn't take control away from the player.


My interpretation of it has you returning slowly back to the stage (think a slower but indefinite version of Pit's Up+B). If you're fighting against someone aggressive enough to attack you on the way back, you're actually less safe than you would be if you recovered normally because now you're wide open.

Alternatively, the game could have you return to a specified spot on the stage instantly, but you're still open for a bit. Something a little more like Mario Kart when Lakitu rescues you and you have to start accelerating again.


Notice that either way, you're still vulnerable when you do this, so it's hardly advantageous to rely on it entirely if you're opponent is aggressive enough. All that happens is the game puts less focus on defensive recovery and more on actual combat. In that sense, it's not much different than having Automatic and Manual drift in Mario Kart.





Kinda scary even. Not trying to play Sour Sally but yeah, that's pretty weird.

I was referring to the skill schism, because Chu always says that making the game more competetive overall, with things like the general AT's, will create a schism between the two "classes" when they have to play against each other. As long as smash exists in the form it does, the personal AT's come into play, but are inhertiantly harder to learn than a general AT. If online stays in place with Smash (As I imagine it would) the two different classes will come into contact online, it happens already with Brawl. People who are competetive will use the crazy techniques they have over the less experienced players and destory them, while general AT's (the one's from melee) didn't give as much of an advantage outside of L-canceling.

As for the auto-recovery thing, your ealier anaolgies have on eminor flaw: All of those examples are crutches that people use to try to get better. Trainign wheels are what you use as you try to get to two wheels, your little neighbor will someday want to hit a moving baseball, and so on. The fear I have is people won't look at as a stepping stone, they'll view it as the plataeu.

While this is not immediatly bad, as you have stated easier smah will bring in more players, which will want more future installments to follow suit and cause the series to slowly dwindle overall until it is mindnumbingly easy, then the industry will follow suit, and all of video games will be destoyed.

...Haha, ok it won't be that bad, but it would cause a slow decay in the smash series and related nintendo franchises. There is a certain bar of simplicity that a game should never fall below, in this case it is the auto-recovery.

Even the possible reprucussions you listed would just make the player think the game is hard, I doubt it would occur to them that if they turned it off, it would be any easier.

****, long post

 

[Pieman0920]

I'd actually say that its possible that the two toads in NSMBWii hurt Toad's chances given that there has been such a outcry about those two being in the game. (There would probably be a lot less if it was only one of them, and the other one was replaced by just about any other Mario character)

Anyways, on Bowser Jr, he really was pretty much the main villain of NSMB, given that you fight him throughout the game, and then fight him and his father at the same time as the final boss. In NSMBWii his role is reduced quite a bit due to the Koopalings taking up a lot of his old role, but he still gets about three fights if I recall correctly, and is the one you are chasing throughout the game. While Bowser is indeed the last boss in this game, calling him the main villain would be like ignoring Nergal in FE7, and saying that the dragon at the end was the real villain. And his role was only second to Bowser in Galaxy as well, since he showed up multiple times.

In any case, while you could try to quantify his apperances in the major games as a smaller number, you have have to realize that he has yet to fail to show up in the main series since his creation. Thus while he doesn't have the history of the other playable Mario characters, he's quickly making up for it.

EDIT: Oh, and Bowser Jr. actually wasn't in PiT. That was just Baby Bowser. His design though was the exact same as Bowser Jr for some reason though.

 

[BBQTV]

would he get in at all with shadw mario or just himself?

 

[DekuBoy]

Well Shadow Mario was all the way back in Sunshine so I would say it would be unlikely by the time SSB4 comes around. Unless he returns.

 

[Pieman0920]

My own clone!

Anyways, Shadow Mario isn't something that should be paired with Bowser Jr. since it would probably be just clone-ish in action, and it doesn't really represent the character all to well given that its only been associated with the character in one game. (Though Shadow Mario does actually show up in a golf game, so does Bowser Jr. in his normal form, and its possible they aren't the same person any more)

 

[Arcadenik]

Pieman, the reason why there was an outcry about the two Toads in NSMBWii is because they wanted the Toad instead of two generic Toads. They weren't complaining about the fact you can play as Toad, they were complaining about how there are two playable Toads when they wanted only one Toad while the fourth character be Peach or Wario. All that tells me is that the fans wanted one Toad and that each character have unique abilities a la SMB2 and SM64DS.

Edit: Thirdkoopa, the Mario Big Eight are the eight major recurring Marioverse characters who have been playable in both main games and spin-off games. They have had the most game appearances out of all the Marioverse characters. Oh, and when I mention "Marioverse characters", I meant the characters from Mario series, Donkey Kong series, Yoshi series, and Wario series. I think Super Smash Bros. could be considered the ultimate Mario spin-off game due to the high content of Marioverse elements and I think that adding Toad to the roster would bring the Mario Big Eight to a full circle.

 

[DekuBoy]

Well put. I personally wanted Wario.

Also if put in, should Toad be strong or fast? In SMB2 I think he was both, but that would be overpowered.

 

[darksamus77]

Well put. I personally wanted Wario.

Also if put in, should Toad be strong or fast? In SMB2 I think he was both, but that would be overpowered.

Strong, that's his largest strength (pardon the pun). I, for one, am in full support of Toad for SSB4, cause he's a central character and I don't think Sakurai can manage to screw him up

 

[Arcadenik]

Let's look at Toad's trophies in Melee and Brawl.

Melee trophy: Toad, Peach's longtime servant, first showed off his strength in Super Mario Bros. 2, then proved to be an agile driver in Super Mario Kart. There are many Toads in Peach's castle and across the Mushroom Kingdom, and although they look similar, they have varied natures. Not the best of guards, Toad must often be rescued.

Brawl trophy: One of the servants at Peach's Castle in the Mushroom Kingdom. Toads give off a strong sense of peace. Most feature white heads with red polka dots, but there are other colors as well. Toad's incredible uprooting speed in Super Mario Bros. 2 is unrivaled, adding to the rumor of his superhuman strength... however out of place it might seem.

Toad should be a fast runner, maybe as fast as Captain Falcon and Sonic, well, maybe at least around those speeds. Toad should be weak because that's how we perceive Toads (and for balance's sake) but Toad should have the amazing ability to lift and carry his opponents around like Donkey Kong does in Smash as a reference to SMB2 and "how out of place it might seem."

Edit: Oh, look at this... SMB2 is mentioned in both Melee and Brawl. It is as if it is a big deal for Toad in Sakurai's eyes despite being a 20-year-old game. Both trophies even describe Toad's abilities as if Sakurai is coming up with ideas for how Toad might be like in Smash. I think NSMBWii will be a bigger deal for Toad in Sakurai's eyes because it would give Sakurai a reason to add Toad to the roster. It is a recent game after all!

 

[justaway12]

I think the only reason he pulled out his turnips so faster than everyone else was to fit into that whole ~*Speed*~ motif.

Fastest at running, pulling etc.

I would say running fast makes more sense IMO.

Since they haven't been portraed as strong, like Arcadenik said I don't think it would make that much sense.

(outside of SMB.2)

 

[SmashChu]

I hear a lot of people talk about Bowser Jr, but they should add the Koppalings into Smash instead. They have so much personality in NSMB Wii that it's not even funny. Anyone else want to see them too?

You're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe they haven't quite taken to Smash because they're not interested in the game. That's like me saying I don't want to play Halo because it's not accessible enough for me. Surely, it's not because I have no interest in playing the game.

Accessibility is the barrier that holds back all games.

Multiplayer games and arcade games thrive on this. Arcade games could not be hard to control because the player would only play for five minutes. Games had to be easy to learn in that short amount of time. These games could not have a tutorial nor a practice mode because the player would walk to a competitor's machine. Street Fighter 2 never had a training mode (at least not the easily game or the arcade ones).

Multiplayer games have to do the same thing, otherwise, everyone will do something else. If your friend says "hey, this game is fun, wanna play?" you'll try it. But if the game is to hard to control, then fun turns into frustration. You'll say "This game sucks. It's too hard to control." What can your friend say? "Just get better,"? You'll just tell them to forget it and do something better with your time. Have you ever bought a multiplayer game and went straight to the training mode.

Your problem Kuma is you assume it to be a norm, but you've never given me an example of a game that was hard to play and was successful. Even games like Halo, who may be hard to non-gamers, is assessable to gamers, thus allowing it to be successful. I've never heard of a game that sold 10 million units that was notable for being hard to control. However, I've heard of a lot of games that were easy to control meet that mark.

The evidence is against you. Players want simple game that excite them quickly. Not training manuals.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I hear a lot of people talk about Bowser Jr, but they should add the Koppalings into Smash instead. They have so much personality in NSMB Wii that it's not even funny. Anyone else want to see them too?

As assist trophies, sure.

And you should probably drop the discussion you and Kuma are having since both of you have unwavering convictions. Agree to disagree, please.

 

[n88]

@SmashChu

I'd rather that Bowser Jr. got in, possibly with references to the other Koopalings in his moveset. He's the only Koopaling that really stands out from the rest.

Also, I agree with Scooby on that you're not going to convince Kuma of anything, and vice versa. I would just drop the argument at this point.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think the only reason he pulled out his turnips so faster than everyone else was to fit into that whole ~*Speed*~ motif.

Fastest at running, pulling etc.

I would say running fast makes more sense IMO.

Since they haven't been portraed as strong, like Arcadenik said I don't think it would make that much sense.

(outside of SMB.2)

Right, that's why I think the superhuman strength mentioned in Toad's trophies were referring to Toad's ability to pick up and carry enemies very fast with ease (presenting us with the illusion that he is very strong). I think it would be a cool reference if Toad could pick up and carry other characters and barrels/crates with ease like Donkey Kong does in Smash even though he is a weak fighter.

 

[DekuBoy]

Thanks SmashChu. I have to wait til FRIDAY for the game.

Also Arcadenik's trophy detective work is pure win.

 

[Pieman0920]

In regards to Toad's mechanics, even if he is one of the faster characters in SMB2 (Which is technically a byproduct of who he replaced in Doki Doki Panic) I don't think he would be as fast as Captain Falcon or Sonic. Toad has speed, so it could make sense that he'd be faster than any of the other Mario characters in Smash, but Toad isn't known for speed like CF or Sonic. In any case, a fast and strong character could theoretically be balanced out by a weak recovery and being able to be knocked around alot.

As for the Koopalings....While I admit that I like them a whole lot more than Bowser Jr., having them as playable characters make no sense. There's really no way to get them all in there. Trophies for sure, and maybe something like an AT, but that's it.

 

[Hero Dude]

So his speed = C. Falcon and his strength = Ice Climbers?

 

[Big-Cat]

In regards to Toad's mechanics, even if he is one of the faster characters in SMB2 (Which is technically a byproduct of who he replaced in Doki Doki Panic) I don't think he would be as fast as Captain Falcon or Sonic. Toad has speed, so it could make sense that he'd be faster than any of the other Mario characters in Smash, but Toad isn't known for speed like CF or Sonic. In any case, a fast and strong character could theoretically be balanced out by a weak recovery and being able to be knocked around alot.

As for the Koopalings....While I admit that I like them a whole lot more than Bowser Jr., having them as playable characters make no sense. There's really no way to get them all in there. Trophies for sure, and maybe something like an AT, but that's it.

For the most part, you could say that he would be a glass cannon of sorts.

For the Koopalings, I think it'd be an amazing idea if, say, Bowser Jr. was the head of the group, and like Olimar, would use his siblings in his attacks but not as dependent.

 

[BBQTV]

i dont know how that could work

 

[justaway12]

I think they'd make a pretty decent final smash :O

 

[Big-Cat]

i dont know how that could work

It'd be tough, but I think it's doable. This is an absurd idea (or not), but maybe the Koopalings would kinda act like your Assist Characters in MvC2. My personal guess would be that the each Koopaling would team up with Bowser Jr. for one of his moves. To be more specific, it'd be like one works with him for his Smash and Special Attacks with each Koopaling getting to work with him on one move. The Final Smash would be all 8 working together.

 

[Pieman0920]

For the most part, you could say that he would be a glass cannon of sorts.

For the Koopalings, I think it'd be an amazing idea if, say, Bowser Jr. was the head of the group, and like Olimar, would use his siblings in his attacks but not as dependent.

You could say that, but as I said, I very very much doubt Toad would be as fast as Falcon. It just doesn't seem right, especially as Toad doesn't have legs.

And the Koopalings are larger than Bowser Jr, and there are more of them than Olimar has Pikmin. It really would just be too much to have there are once really. What if four people choose Bowser Jr, and then have all koopalings out? You've got like 32 characters on screen then.