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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Pieman0920

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Smash 64 didn't have that style though. Its artwork had that style, but the graphics themselves didn't reflect that, and in some cases, didn't look like the characters really (I'm looking at you DK and Fox...maybe Pikachu too. Technically Link when you go by his OoT art, but less so when you simply look at the game. Yoshi also I guess...Yeesh, its quite a bit). And I really don't think the comic-expressive style really works for all series as it is, and is more suitable for some rather than all. Snake, Falcon, the FE characters, and most of the LoZ characters really are not inclined to that kind of style, and thus you'd just have the whole problem over again.
 

Paper Mario Master

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You have any suggestions for improvements in Targets and Platforms? Maybe a stage maker for these?
I want at least for them to go back to different stage per character and reflect them in a way. I liked the difficulty Targets too though. So maybe both or like you said a stage maker. That would be fun. Brawl's was somewhat challenging but got old pretty fast. So if they put a unique stage for each character it would be nice but 40+ stages just for BtT... and 40+ for BtP.... plus RttF... just one for that I guess (or the 5 difficulties would be fun) It would be more than the rest of the normal stages for fighting on. Or not there might be 80+ stages.

And Pieman, I agree with you comic style wouldn't work for FE, LoZ or Snake
 

Pieman0920

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Perhaps the best decsion for BtT and BtP would be to have 20 per event. That way it could be more than 5 and you could have 4 or so differnt versions Very Easy, Easy, Normal, Hard, and Very Hard. I think it may be a bit too much to have 40-50ish unique ones, and really too much to have different difficulty levels for them, so striking a compromise with simply have more levels but in Brawl's style with difficulty may be best. .
 

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Yeah, there's the issue regarding making 80+ bonus stages in total, but that's where your priorities lie. However, there's probably less to worry about in creating a stage for Targets or platforms than there is in making any typical stage.

Yeah, the comic styled look isn't for everyone. One thing to go with is to go for a semi-realistic anime style like this:



Or perhaps a less realistic style like this:


Or if we want something demented:


For those of you don't know, the anime are Ghost in the Shell, Gurren Lagann, and When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni.

The first one provides more freedom for the more cartoony characters to retain the majority of their charm without being too realistic. The more realistic and anime characters retain their charm without being too cartoony.

Unlike the first one, the second leans towards the cartoony games, but this still allows the realistic characters to retain their charm. Someone also did the Brawl cast with the same style as seen in this video.

The last is a joke, but you could interpret Smash as ultra violent.
 

ScoobyCafe

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@Kuma: I literally spent like half an hour trying to figure out what to add to those two modes, and I'm drawing up nothing but blanks, especially for Platforms. ****, lol.

I dunno, have a target arena built for 4 players, have them break targets (not just bulls-eye targets, maybe some other stuff worth more than bulls-eye targets). Whoever breaks more wins?--does this sound fun? lol

Smash 64 didn't have that style though. Its artwork had that style, but the graphics themselves didn't reflect that, and in some cases, didn't look like the characters really (I'm looking at you DK and Fox...maybe Pikachu too. Technically Link when you go by his OoT art, but less so when you simply look at the game. Yoshi also I guess...Yeesh, its quite a bit). And I really don't think the comic-expressive style really works for all series as it is, and is more suitable for some rather than all. Snake, Falcon, the FE characters, and most of the LoZ characters really are not inclined to that kind of style, and thus you'd just have the whole problem over again.
It did indeed have that style. I'm not talking about graphics, but aesthetics; the general feel in that game is comicy, just like the artwork.

And by comicy, I don't necessarily mean characters should look EXACTLY like the 64 artwork, but have a vibrant and expressive look to them. Kingdom Hearts, Sonic Unleashed, Ratchet & Clank--these are examples of this done right.

How can you not look at Ratchet & Clank and think Smash wouldn't benefit from the aesthetics that game is working with? It's simply gorgeous, and packages real and cartoony perfectly.
 

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do you think ssb4 will come back w/ the trophies coming to life and "brawling" idea?

i dont mind how long ssb4 takes to come out, so long as they give the creator enough TIME to finish most of his ideas. (characters, levels, modes, graphics ect.)

sakurai said he ran out of time and had to cut a lot of stuff from ssbb. idk why it took soo long, he had 4 or more years to work on brawl?
 

Pieman0920

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It did indeed have that style. I'm not talking about graphics, but aesthetics; the general feel in that game is comicy, just like the artwork.

And by comicy, I don't necessarily mean characters should look EXACTLY like the 64 artwork, but have a vibrant and expressive look to them. Kingdom Hearts, Sonic Unleashed, Ratchet & Clank--these are examples of this done right.

How can you not look at Ratchet & Clank and think Smash wouldn't benefit from the aesthetics that game is working with? It's simply gorgeous, and packages real and cartoony perfectly.
Eh? I've been playing the original Smash a bit lately, and I really don't get what you're saying. Disregarding the graphics, most of the original Smash didn't have any real style and was sort of baren. Backgrounds that were not part of the stages, for what you could see, also didn't really follow the outside art (And was actually quite a bit like most other games of the time in feel) Thus for the most part, the art style was mostly all for things that actually weren't in the game. Even the little victory screens were different for the most part.

And I honestly don't see what the difference is with those games and Brawl itself other than possibly choices given to some of the colors. (And looking at those R&C screens, it still doesn't fit F-Zero, FE, MGS, and most of LoZ, and would be more focused on Mario. Heck, even Star Fox wouldn't quite work with exagerated expressions)
 

★Chaos★

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A little late here.... but... The reason I like Brawl's graphics compared to Melee is that it just looked better. They juist improve from game to game. Like the first reveal of Brawl where they where Melee form and then changed. And of course the N64 was square. But I don't want it to TOO "good" (real looking) keep the video game feel to it
yes brawl has way better graphics than melee
but i hope it doesn't get so good it's real looking
i mean this is a video game that has to maintain a video game feel
 

★Chaos★

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A little late here.... but... The reason I like Brawl's graphics compared to Melee is that it just looked better. They juist improve from game to game. Like the first reveal of Brawl where they where Melee form and then changed. And of course the N64 was square. But I don't want it to TOO "good" (real looking) keep the video game feel to it
yes brawl has way better graphics than melee
but i hope it doesn't get so good it's real looking
i mean this is a video game that has to maintain a video game feel
 

Paper Mario Master

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do you think ssb4 will come back w/ the trophies coming to life and "brawling" idea?

i dont mind how long ssb4 takes to come out, so long as they give the creator enough TIME to finish most of his ideas. (characters, levels, modes, graphics ect.)

sakurai said he ran out of time and had to cut a lot of stuff from ssbb. idk why it took soo long, he had 4 or more years to work on brawl?
They probably will. The coming to life started with SSB then Trophies were Melee.

I hop they give him time too. It'd be alot better.
 

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They probably will. The coming to life started with SSB then Trophies were Melee.

I hop they give him time too. It'd be alot better.
hopefully the "wii 2" can actually read the ssb4 disc!

yes, i have one of the wiis that wont read it anymore -_-

hopefully super mario galaxy has a level :D like some sort of galaxy tours
 

ScoobyCafe

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Eh? I've been playing the original Smash a bit lately, and I really don't get what you're saying. Disregarding the graphics, most of the original Smash didn't have any real style and was sort of baren. Backgrounds that were not part of the stages, for what you could see, also didn't really follow the outside art (And was actually quite a bit like most other games of the time in feel) Thus for the most part, the art style was mostly all for things that actually weren't in the game. Even the little victory screens were different for the most part.
I really don't want to end up spending a lot of time trying to explain this. To keep things concise, the artwork feels comicy, the presentation of SSB64 as a whole captured this feeling, aesthetically, sound-wise, atmosphere, etc. It feels very cartoony in comparison to Melee or Brawl.

And I honestly don't see what the difference is with those games and Brawl itself other than possibly choices given to some of the colors. (And looking at those R&C screens, it still doesn't fit F-Zero, FE, MGS, and most of LoZ, and would be more focused on Mario. Heck, even Star Fox wouldn't quite work with exagerated expressions)
Differences should be fairly apparent. Those games--the ones I mentioned, particularly the latter two--don't rely on darker, edgier, more serious looks in visuals, charater models, etc. to achieve realism. Lighting and textures did that just fine. At the same time, the models, colors, etc. were rather cartoon-like. The end result was a gorgeous, lush art direction for both games.

For Kingdom Hearts, Brawl thought opting a similar approach to Twilight Princess was, to my understanding, the only way to include the TP Link design or the best way to cross all characters(?). This is false, in my opinion. Square bridged two series that couldn't be more far apart in virtually everything without the need to make it look realistic like Final Fantasy. It reached a solid goldilocks area--not too FF and not too Disney in appearance, and still has that cartoony feeling. Cloud looked natural in KH2.

So you could add the TP design, but add a more cartoony model, all while adding realistic lighting and texture. I'm pretty confident it'd look much better than the filter look in Brawl. This is what I hope for in SSB4.

Oh, and this:

Heck, even Star Fox wouldn't quite work with exagerated expressions
Is wrong in the finest sense. Don't kid yourself, man.

I'm not even talking about over-the-top expressions, but Star Fox would look just fine with them.
 

Paper Mario Master

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hopefully the "wii 2" can actually read the ssb4 disc!

yes, i have one of the wiis that wont read it anymore -_-

hopefully super mario galaxy has a level :D like some sort of galaxy tours
Mine has a bit of trouble.

I like a SMG stage. Airship Armada is my choice but maybe not. I know most wanna round one but I'm not sure if that would be right. Well whatever.
 

drag0nscythe

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Ok, you do not need to be witting the story. All of those idea just come off as bad. Why do we need to kill of characters. is there a need to destroy landmarks. Heck, that doesn't sound very epic anyway. Just boring and predictable.
to each his own honestly
I like the idea of character deaths. Sorry if you believe in "Everyone must Survive."

As for predictable, yeah. it is in a way (except for the characters dying obviously.) But it seems like a good idea that needs refinement.

What would you do?
 

Pieman0920

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I really don't want to end up spending a lot of time trying to explain this. To keep things concise, the artwork feels comicy, the presentation of SSB64 as a whole captured this feeling, aesthetically, sound-wise, atmosphere, etc. It feels very cartoony in comparison to Melee or Brawl.
You really do have to explain this Scooby, sicne I honestly don't get what your beef with the style is, or how the styles your suggesting for it are all that different outside of possibly the colors. I'm really not trying to argue with this point, but rather just understand where you're coming from. 64 didn't have much of a atmosphere to speak of, especially compared to Melee. For me, Melee had a nice feel to it, going around the menus, and there was more to it than just getting to the action. That really wasn't the case with Smash 64 for me, and everything was just about to getting to the fight as soon as possible, because there was nothing else.



Differences should be fairly apparent. Those games--the ones I mentioned, particularly the latter two--don't rely on darker, edgier, more serious looks in visuals, charater models, etc. to achieve realism. Lighting and textures did that just fine. At the same time, the models, colors, etc. were rather cartoon-like. The end result was a gorgeous, lush art direction for both games.

For Kingdom Hearts, Brawl thought opting a similar approach to Twilight Princess was, to my understanding, the only way to include the TP Link design or the best way to cross all characters(?). This is false, in my opinion. Square bridged two series that couldn't be more far apart in virtually everything without the need to make it look realistic like Final Fantasy. It reached a solid goldilocks area--not too FF and not too Disney in appearance, and still has that cartoony feeling. Cloud looked natural in KH2.

So you could add the TP design, but add a more cartoony model, all while adding realistic lighting and texture. I'm pretty confident it'd look much better than the filter look in Brawl. This is what I hope for in SSB4.
I honestly don't understand what you're talking about. Outside of the pale-ish colors, what was wrong with the other character's designs? Pikachu looked like a standard Pikachu, and Kirby looked like he always has. Mario's clothes were a bit more detailed, and DK was a bit more hairy. How were these characters TP-Esque at all? Do you just want to change the more realistic characters into a more conformed cartoony look? Because that's just as bad as adding hyper detail to the cartoony characters.


Is wrong in the finest sense. Don't kid yourself, man.

I'm not even talking about over-the-top expressions, but Star Fox would look just fine with them.
Not really. Despite the fact that you'd think that a series like that would be more cartoony, it really isn't. Even at its most cartoony (Adventures) it didn't delve to much into it, which is saying something, since that was a Rare game.


Anyways, for a SMG stage, I'd say Good Egg Galaxy is the most likely thing, though SMG2 may change that. Whatever the case, I expect a star filled sky as the background, so Gusty Gardens will probably not show up.
 

DekuBoy

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I think we'll get a Delfino-esque stage. You would be dropped off into various arena's based on different Galaxies.

In regards to character designs, I think they should do what they did with Olimar and Pit. Pit was comletely redesigned to fit in, which was met with acclaim. With Olimar, they kept the character staples whilst adding lots of details to add to his character design without making him look like a new character altogether. Now, a character like Kirby would only require detail where neccesary. Like textures on his shoes. Whatever, I'm getting carried away.
 

ScoobyCafe

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You really do have to explain this Scooby, sicne I honestly don't get what your beef with the style is, or how the styles your suggesting for it are all that different outside of possibly the colors. I'm really not trying to argue with this point, but rather just understand where you're coming from. 64 didn't have much of a atmosphere to speak of, especially compared to Melee. For me, Melee had a nice feel to it, going around the menus, and there was more to it than just getting to the action. That really wasn't the case with Smash 64 for me, and everything was just about to getting to the fight as soon as possible, because there was nothing else.
Can't explain it any clearer than that, unfortunately. If you're still unable to grasp what I'm talking about, well, there isn't much I can do about that. I don't like the darker, serious visual style, atmosphere, etc. in Brawl, but prefer the brighter, simple, comicy atmosphere in SSB64. And atmosphere doesn't necessarily have to do with doing stuff or doing much; SoTC has an amazing atmosphere despite not having plenty to do, much like the comicy SSB64.

I honestly don't understand what you're talking about. Outside of the pale-ish colors, what was wrong with the other character's designs? Pikachu looked like a standard Pikachu, and Kirby looked like he always has. Mario's clothes were a bit more detailed, and DK was a bit more hairy. How were these characters TP-Esque at all? Do you just want to change the more realistic characters into a more conformed cartoony look? Because that's just as bad as adding hyper detail to the cartoony characters.
I'm referring to the TP-esque textures. Brawl models have a very dark tone to them. This was dileberately done to make them Twilight Princess-like/make them blend with TP Link.

Melee texture:



Brawl Texture:



And you clearly aren't understanding me if you think I'm asking for characters to look Looney Tune-like, i.e. conformed and cartoony. Characters can look like how they do now to an extent--they can have detail. Real fur, hair, clothes, etc.--I don't mind this. What I don't want is the colors, textures, whatever to be straight-up Twilight Princess, being all dingy and whatnot. I also want animations to be much more expressive.

Not really. Despite the fact that you'd think that a series like that would be more cartoony, it really isn't. Even at its most cartoony (Adventures) it didn't delve to much into it, which is saying something, since that was a Rare game.
So because Rare didn't do much with [Adventures] back then, it wouldn't work out? Okay, gotcha.

Let Insomniac have a crack at Star Fox, and see how amazing the crew would look. Pixar-esque expressions? You're kidding yourself, man.

Anyways, for a SMG stage, I'd say Good Egg Galaxy is the most likely thing, though SMG2 may change that. Whatever the case, I expect a star filled sky as the background, so Gusty Gardens will probably not show up.
Wouldn't the Comet Observatory be, I dunno, a better idea for a stage? I see quite a few people saying Good Egg Galaxy should be a stage, but I'm not seeing how that'd work. =/
 

Pieman0920

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Can't explain it any clearer than that, unfortunately. If you're still unable to grasp what I'm talking about, well, there isn't much I can do about that. I don't like the darker, serious visual style, atmosphere, etc. in Brawl, but prefer the brighter, simple, comicy atmosphere in SSB64. And atmosphere doesn't necessarily have to do with doing stuff or doing much; SoTC has an amazing atmosphere despite not having plenty to do, much like the comicy SSB64.
You can't spend time explaining it, and you can't explain it more than that? :dizzy:

Its darker (and a bit more pale) but outside of that, its pretty much the same as the things you posted for the characters who would work under such a style. 64 didn't really have a comic atmosphere, especially when actually playing, and for the most part the characters were just emulations of their existing 64 graphical designs. (With the exception of those who did not have any to speak of, but they didn't turn out comicy either) And really now, you keep on assigning qualities to SSB64 but not actually saying where these qualities are. WHAT is comic like about Smash 64? Its certainly not the ingame graphics, and as far as I can tell, its not much there in the very baren menus, so I really can't see where you're seeing it.

I'm referring to the TP-esque textures. Brawl models have a very dark tone to them. This was dileberately done to make them Twilight Princess-like/make them blend with TP Link.

Melee texture:



Brawl Texture:



And you clearly aren't understanding me if you think I'm asking for characters to look Looney Tune-like, i.e. conformed and cartoony. Characters can look like how they do now to an extent--they can have detail. Real fur, hair, clothes, etc.--I don't mind this. What I don't want is the colors, textures, whatever to be straight-up Twilight Princess, being all dingy and whatnot. I also want animations to be much more expressive.
I'm not going to deny that Brawl was darker and less colorful than Melee, but that Kirby thing seems a bit messed up. (Can't verify it myself yet, but looking at a old texture packet on Melee Kirby, its darker than that...maybe it was the way its extracted. Haven't been able to look into a texture rip of Brawl's Kirby, but its certainly lighter than that in the official art...though still very pale)

Whatever the case, I think its a very big assumption to just speculate that the whole graphic style was simply chosen to accomidate TP. Still, I've leveled with you that colors can see an improvement, but I'm really not getting you on this whole texture thing...or this expressive animations thing.


So because Rare didn't do much with [Adventures] back then, it wouldn't work out? Okay, gotcha.

Let Insomniac have a crack at Star Fox, and see how amazing the crew would look. Pixar-esque expressions? You're kidding yourself, man.
What I'm saying is that Star Fox isn't that cartoony or that expressive despite what you may be inclined to automatically think. It may be anthromorphic space animals in the future, but it takes itself quite seriously. Even Rare, who is prone to make things more catoon like, didn't try to make them have overly cartoon-like expressions, because they aren't really treated like cartoons. Their faces don't stretch or contort with expressions, and they aren't the same thing as Rachet and Clank characters. And what are you even talking about in those last two sentances.


Wouldn't the Comet Observatory be, I dunno, a better idea for a stage? I see quite a few people saying Good Egg Galaxy should be a stage, but I'm not seeing how that'd work. =/
Comet Observatory could work, but I think Good Egg Galaxy would have a more adventurous feel. Still, if the Observatory returns in SMG2, then that may be reason enough to use it as a stage. In any case though, why can't you see Good Egg working? It doesn't need to have special gravity or anything, and could work just like Delfino plaza, and move down Mario's path from the first mission in SMG.
 

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I think we'll get a Delfino-esque stage. You would be dropped off into various arena's based on different Galaxies.

In regards to character designs, I think they should do what they did with Olimar and Pit. Pit was comletely redesigned to fit in, which was met with acclaim. With Olimar, they kept the character staples whilst adding lots of details to add to his character design without making him look like a new character altogether. Now, a character like Kirby would only require detail where neccesary. Like textures on his shoes. Whatever, I'm getting carried away.
yea. no one wants ssbr soo reslistic its.... gross.
 

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I just beat the Legendary Starfy 100%. Great game and I hope they keep releasing games in the franchise in North America. With five games under his belt, I think he has a decent chance of becoming playable in SSB4. There's enough to work with especially if they decided to throw in some of Starly's moves too. You know, it's funny how similar he is to Kirby and I could definately see them becoming "rivals" if he were made playable. :laugh:
 

Pieman0920

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Eh, Starfy's a better name imho. He's a starfish after all, not a...uh...staff I guess.

Thinking about it, I've always sort of thought of Starfy as a pottential character, but I never actually payed all too much attention to what his abilities actually are (outside of spinning rappidly at things) so can someone enlighten me to what some of his moves for Smash would be?
 

DekuBoy

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Have you guys heard about this DLC rumour?
If it's true you can expect this thread to be down for a while. To quote Hans Landa: 'I love rumours!'
 

Big-Cat

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I've known about it for a while, but I never bothered mentioning it. I figured that someone was going to post it on here. It took longer than I thought.
 

DarkShadow20

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I was surprised it wasn't posted here actually, especially since it mentioned Smashboards. But we don't need to clutter this topic with DLC discussion.
 

DekuBoy

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Well, I think some games are using DLC like Guitar Hero and Samba di Amigo. And we have the SD memory thingy. Som it's a possibility...
 

mystery_dungeon

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Those games were developed with DLC in mind most likely. Even then, unless you want more music in Brawl, there is big difference in data between a song and a character.

The song just needs to heard.

The character on the other hand, needs to have a new model with a complete moveset and the animations for the moveset, standing still, moving, and jumping.
 

Pieman0920

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Eh? What DLC rumor? I haven't really heard anything, though I would think it'd be dumb to include DLC at this point, considering how long the game has been out with no mention of it. Also there's the technical limitations. (Plus what MD is saying there)
 

Pieman0920

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Alright...but still, why now? We had loads of DLC rumors back when Brawl first came out, and they were all shut down, so why would any rumor now have any credibility worth talking about at all? If something could have happened, and it couldn't have anyways, it would have happened then. Honestly, if people want new characters, they are simply going to have to wait until Smash 4.

(Plus outside of those 7 characters, the only other cut things I think were some songs and Ridley as an AT)
 

ChronoBound

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I looked into this rumor. Its fake for these reasons:

1. Brawl does not have the coding to allow for DLC.

2. Sakurai already said that there was no DLC planned for Brawl.

3. The original poster of this rumor on IGN acts very childish, and like a typical troll or pre-Brawl "prophet".

4. The link provided by the original poster of this rumor on IGN did not lead to a story about the Brawl rumor. Heck, there is no such Brawl rumor posted on GoNintendo.
 

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Okay then, new topic.

I hope Marth gets his new look in the next game. Maybe then he won't be Smash's Bridget.
 

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Okay then, new topic.

I hope Marth gets his new look in the next game. Maybe then he won't be Smash's Bridget.
i hope sheik gets a little less manly. i mean she makes marth look like peach!

im a big sheik fan so i hope they at least keep her :p
 

Pieman0920

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Marth's look may change to match up more to his style in FE11, but if that's still to girly for you, then there's really no helping how Marth looks unless you simply bring in a new character instead of him. (Which won't happen anyways)
 
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