Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Linkshot]

I think any stage that would give an advantage to low tiers specifically should be a viable counterpick. At least one should be starter, too, so that Low Tiers don't auto-fail.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The screen in the background gives you a very clear warning of any changes, and I'm really doubtful that Yoshi, of all characters, is broken on Pokemon Stadium 2. As long as you air control and air dodge appropriately, the air form isn't that dangerous; it gives some clear advantages, but it's never really overpowering. Actually learning the stage makes it really pretty benign. There is no reason for this stage to be banned ever.

 

[Mattsy]

I think any stage that would give an advantage to low tiers specifically should be a viable counterpick. At least one should be starter, too, so that Low Tiers don't auto-fail.

What about when you fly off the stage because of electirc thing against a fairly decent MK?

The screen in the background gives you a very clear warning of any changes, and I'm really doubtful that Yoshi, of all characters, is broken on Pokemon Stadium 2. As long as you air control and air dodge appropriately, the air form isn't that dangerous; it gives some clear advantages, but it's never really overpowering. Actually learning the stage makes it really pretty benign. There is no reason for this stage to be banned ever.

Considering the player is actually good with Yoshi, it's almost always used to his advantage. If I'm at high percents I'm fretting that the best part of my game will be shattered, and due to him having down b, I can't turn it against him and he can have multiple tries at uairing me. I normally air dodge well enough, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole air form of the match consists of me defending and him attacking. He controls that form, however well I do.

Also see the MK electric form comment.

It shouldn't be banned, yeah; it just shouldn't be starter.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

If you ever fly off the stage because of the electric form unintentionally, you are playing very poorly. That's really all there is to it. If you end up getting edgeguarded by Meta Knight, you deserve it.

Do you know what another option in the air form is against said Yoshi? Don't jump. Just stay on the ground. If you somehow foolishly place yourself in the air against someone who beats you up there, just go really high and spam Lucario's down aerial to pretty much hover in place in the low gravity. You can make up for any stallishness here by the fact that Lucario should greatly outplay Yoshi on the ice form (at least if memory serves, Lucario can sliding fsmash). The air form is never really that big of an advantage just because, if someone just wants to avoid you on it, it's very hard to ever actually hit them. Yes it's to Yoshi's advantage, but is it really in a class above what Yoshi gets against Wario on Final Destination?

I agree with this stage being more suited to being a counterpick than a starter, but it's a whole lot closer to starter than banned. If you wanted a large starter list, it certainly wouldn't be that bad (it's probably the 11th "most neutral" stage). We don't even have much to argue about, but there's no sense in spreading negative sentiments about Pokemon Stadium 2 since it just makes certain people feel confident in transitioning their irrational dislike of the stage into a ban.

Anyway, did no one have anything to say about Onett? I raised the question of why so many people want to ban it a while back, but it didn't get any response. Onett seems pretty obviously fair to me; it's definitely more fair than the somewhat more accepted Mario Circuit and Green Hill Zone. So, what's the problem with Onett?

 

[Mattsy]

If you ever fly off the stage because of the electric form unintentionally, you are playing very poorly. That's really all there is to it. If you end up getting edgeguarded by Meta Knight, you deserve it.

Do you know what another option in the air form is against said Yoshi? Don't jump. Just stay on the ground. If you somehow foolishly place yourself in the air against someone who beats you up there, just go really high and spam Lucario's down aerial to pretty much hover in place in the low gravity. You can make up for any stallishness here by the fact that Lucario should greatly outplay Yoshi on the ice form (at least if memory serves, Lucario can sliding fsmash). The air form is never really that big of an advantage just because, if someone just wants to avoid you on it, it's very hard to ever actually hit them. Yes it's to Yoshi's advantage, but is it really in a class above what Yoshi gets against Wario on Final Destination?

I agree with this stage being more suited to being a counterpick than a starter, but it's a whole lot closer to starter than banned. If you wanted a large starter list, it certainly wouldn't be that bad (it's probably the 11th "most neutral" stage). We don't even have much to argue about, but there's no sense in spreading negative sentiments about Pokemon Stadium 2 since it just makes certain people feel confident in transitioning their irrational dislike of the stage into a ban.

I disagree with a lot of things there. If I'm playing a decent Metaknight it's incredibly easy to get caught on the electric form's slider thing. Especially if I've just returned to the stage/ returning to the stage. Maybe I'm not so good as all you zomgawesome smash players, but I find try to spot dodge/air dodge a smash at higher percents whilst the scenery is changingkind of hard.

As for the Yoshi thing-- I don't know if you've been playing bad Yoshi's or something, but spamming dair rarely works; if spaced/timed right it'll trade damage for knockback and KO easily. My friend is rather good with Yoshi, too, good enough so that if I don't jump, he'll get me in the air.

I agree it being counterpick, obviously, but I don't think a neutral starter list needs to be that big. It's fine where it is, in my honest opinion.

Sorry if I've come across hostile or argumentative; I love a good debate and haven't meant to come across negative. Exploring all opinions and views can only be a good thing, right?

 

[Linkshot]

About Onett, it looks fair, it's easy to play on, but, I dunno. There's just something about it that bugs me. Maybe it's that the killzones are way too close to the play area. Maybe it's that I can get wall infinite'd and when a car comes, they can just shield and then be on their way again.

 

[c3gill]

About Onett, it looks fair, it's easy to play on, but, I dunno. There's just something about it that bugs me. Maybe it's that the killzones are way too close to the play area. Maybe it's that I can get wall infinite'd and when a car comes, they can just shield and then be on their way again.

best arguement you can have against the place is there, the wall infinite+car= lost stock. the kill zones close to the play area shouldnt be a big deal, as there are plenty of spots like that in the game.

other than that, this place is golden. the cars are a predictable, very easily dodged obstacle, shouldnt be banned just because of them.

 

[deepseadiva]

Maybe it's that I can get wall infinite'd and when a car comes, they can just shield and then be on their way again.

Did you, like, drop the controller when they shield?

You can not be infinited if they stop infiniting.

best arguement you can have against the place is there, the wall infinite+car= lost stock.

The car's have like, zero knockback. They can't kill.

 

[Flamingo]

The car's have like, zero knockback. They can't kill.

They could in melee.

 

[deepseadiva]

We're talking about Brawl. xD

 

[Kage Me]

The car's have like, zero knockback. They can't kill.

It's not that they have zero knockback. The trajectory is just very horizontal on the powerful ones, so you get caught by the walls.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's actually that they have no knockback growth so they do the same knockback at 400% that they do at 0%.

 

[marth126]

Unban Luigis Mansion

 

[Linkshot]

State your reasons.

 

[CRASHiC]

Unban Luigis Mansion

When was it? Its still on the counter list.

 

[ThaDudeWithShoez]

Shadow Moses banned? Really? I don't see why. I'd rather it not be, mostly because I'm good there, but still. I don't get that. If this was discussed earlier, well, tl;dr.

 

[infomon]

Shadow Moses banned? Really? I don't see why. I'd rather it not be, mostly because I'm good there, but still. I don't get that. If this was discussed earlier, well, tl;dr.

1. Wall-infinites.
2. When the walls are gone, it's a walk-off stage so DeDeDe can just grab you (with his ridiculous grab-range) and Dthrow-chaingrab you off the side. Some other chars can chaingrab right off the sides as well (Falco, ICs).
3. It's really hard to kill someone who knows to DI down and tech off the walls.

 

[Linkshot]

Squeegee's is banned in some places because most matches will reach the clock.

 

[ShockisBack]

Mansion is also banned because of MAJOR advantages certain characters get. DK down-b spam, MK mach tornado spam, TONS of CG from other characters on the bottom portion. mansion is a counterpick too.

 

[iSpiN]

I wish more counter stages were unbanned in certain areas (particularly mine).

Weegee's needs to be banned everywhere and stay banned everywhere. >___<

 

[buenob]

I wish more counter stages were unbanned in certain areas (particularly mine).

Weegee's needs to be banned everywhere and stay banned everywhere. >___<

lol, this is why more areas need to a) unban more things and b) post exactly WHY certain areas banned that stage

maybe your area has a great DK player, most don't... if DK would break a level in a way and your area bans it, you have way more insight than an area that doesn't have that player//situation come up all the time

At the recent CoT4 tournament, there was a lot of talk about norfair needing to be on the banned list... I personally just think that because certain regions banned it, the "pros" from that area were out of practice on that map and didn't know / forgot how to properly deal with the stalling

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Luigi's Mansion is generally legal in KS/MO, but it sees pretty little play as it receives far and away the most bans from players of any stage (notably, everyone bans it against the Meta Knight players, though I'm considering using my ban elsewhere next time). The main "problem" it has, from what I've played on it, is that the stage is an exercise in stage specific strategies such that players who know the stage well have a pretty massive advantage over players who seldom play on it. There's some pretty crazy stuff that can happen on Luigi's Mansion and, while none of it is actually all that broken, players who don't know what to do are likely to face nasty 2-3 stocks. Also, players who don't understand proper maneuvering on this stage tend to have ridiculously slow matches here (few players actually use any strategy at all in attacking the pillars).

I agree that people really need to learn stages better, but a lot of them simply don't want to play on many stages. If the culture shifted away from the unfortunate practice of playing all friendlies on starter stages (either play sets or turn the counterpicks on for random), perhaps people would look at it differently. It's good advice for you as a player too; if a stage is tournament legal in your area, you had better play friendlies on it so you don't get destroyed on it when it matters.

With Onett, I maintain that walls are really overrated in general (at least short walls), and you can play smart with the completely non-lethal cars to make them even more safe. It probably goes along with the stage knowledge thing; most players don't know Onett and don't want to know Onett...

Anyway, this topic got mega slow and kinda died... I'm not sure where we should be going as a group with this topic; ideally our discussions of stage legality should produce something useful instead of just being a "discuss the fairness of a random stage" thread. I could continue with the summary idea and go over Norfair in all its actually fair glory I suppose. Does that sound useful?

 

[Linkshot]

Anything constructive posted in this thread is useful, even if it was noted ages ago.

 

[deepseadiva]

Where's our new ruleset/stage list...?

It was due in January.

 

[cutter]

I talked to Overswarm on AIM yesterday and he said it should be up this week.

 

[Volkner582]

Why even ban stages to begin with?

Although, if you're going to ban Flat Zone 2, you might as well ban both Pokemon Stadiums.

 

[infomon]

Why even ban stages to begin with?

Because competitive play reduces to avoiding combat (ex. New Pork City: hit the opponent once, then run away the remaining 7 minutes), or a single strategy becomes over-powered (D3's chaingrab on Bridge of Eldin), or there's such a strong random component that it's "not competitive" (not willing to place random bets, in what we'd like to be a game of skill) (ex. Wario Ware).

Although, if you're going to ban Flat Zone 2, you might as well ban both Pokemon Stadiums.

This makes no sense. Please support your wild claim.

 

[kisler]

Any stage with a continuous floor running off the field (e.g. Green Hill Zone) should be banned because Kirby and D3 can suck people up, then dispose of them off-screen, causing loss of life.

A list of some of those:
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Both Mushroom Kingdoms
Onett
Green Hill Zone
75m (?)
Mario Bros.
Castle Siege (moving and 2nd parts, mostly)
Shadow Moses Island

 

[infomon]

Any stage with a continuous floor running off the field (e.g. Green Hill Zone) should be banned because Kirby and D3 can suck people up, then dispose of them off-screen, causing loss of life.

lol..... but you can get out if you mash buttons + stuff. Unless you're at really high percent, in which case.... yes, it's a kill move, don't let it catch you lol.

 

[Linkshot]

Key word: Kill move.

It's not an instant gimp. Just stay away. The D3 chaingrab is more lethal. (dThrow->dThrow->dThrow etc etc if you weren't familiar). You might as well be saying Rainbow Cruise should be banned because of MK and Kirby uThrow instant kill. And any stage with a bottom death zone because of Ganon and Bowser :/

Anyway, yeah. My point is that Inhale is definitely not as dirty a tactic as D3 chaingrab.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I think all of the counter/banned section is banned by now. lol (I know how old it may be though. Just pointning it out.

 

[R.T.K.O. (Rob-Totes-Kush-Often)]

With drillshining and waveshining out, should stages with walls still be banned? The only issues that I can think of that are CGs and Falco's laser locking.

It's even easier for Fox to infinite shine now.

Just get em up against the wall, DownB, Repeat to upsmash

Not that i mind cuz i main Fox

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Stages like Mario Bros and FlatZone and Spear Piller and Jungle Japes and such are banned because they completely screw with the game.

Stages with walls are really really cheap, because most anyone can use infinite attacks on them. I actually saw a video on youtube where Mew2king using Dedede did an infintie grab on Wario on the Ground Pokemon Stadium 1. That was situational, I know, but infinites are so friggin cheap. Those stages should be avoided, or atleast be counter-pickable.

Any other stages that aren't like those, I don't see why they are banned. Counterpickable, maybe, but not banishment. I'm quite happy with the list right now.

 

[Linkshot]

Jungle Japes is pretty legal. The klaptrap comes on a timer, and the water is avoidable+escapable.

I still don't see why Temple was put in above Great Bay. Great Bay would be awesome.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I didn't mean Junlge Japes. I ment the one where it scrolls for you, on the water-fall. What's that called... I think it starts with a B. But stages that move for you and or slaughter you unless you focus fully on the stage are ones that deserve to be banned.

 

[Linkshot]

Rumble Falls.

 

[Adetque]

Pirate Ship for ban.

Catapult can be a OHKO. Cannonballs do 55 damage.

 

[Linkshot]

Catapult is so easy to avoid. The bombs are slightly harder, but all you have to do is stay in the air.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Can't you toss people into the bombs too? It's fun to do.

Pirate ship seems one of those stages where you get enough of a warning about any danger, and you can still do something about it. You hear the explosions. You see the catapult. It warns you about the island. And the back ground changes as the tornado c omes. I rather like this stage. It's fair to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pirate Ship for ban.

Catapult can be a OHKO. Cannonballs do 55 damage.

Catapult is not a OHKO. Particularly if you know how to DI.

I quite honestly don't remember the cannonballs doing 55 dg. I was thinking more along the lines of 25%ish. I wouldn't know for sure, seeing as I know how to dodge things that give you a good 3 seconds to move out of it's path.


There are other stages that would be looked at for a ban LONG before Pirate Ship. Like, all of the stages in CP/Banned category, Norfair, etc.