Official Stage Legality Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

No, this is why we should keep MK in; he's the fatal flaw to your system.
You're keeping him out so that it seems credible when it really isn't at all.

the same way you use him to make my rule set look flawed is the same way I could use him to make your rule set look flawed . By MK having no bad stages, it makes it so that it is much easier to switch into MK after the stage is chosen than it is before the stage is chosen. This is because unless a person is better with MK then he is with his main. they are going to have a tough time choosing whether to stick to their main or switch into MK. Now if they switch into MK and the loser chooses to go to a stage that would have favored luigi more(lets say a stage that the luigi main is vary experienced in) the luigi main is now going to be kicking himself in the face because he could have done better by sticking to luigi than switching to MK.

This is where true skill shines because chances are your main is going to be better than their secondary because again, unless they are equally good with both characters, then you should have an slight upper hand even against an MK.

 

[ErikG]

This is where true skill shines because chances are your main is going to be better than their secondary because again, unless they are equally good with both characters, then you should have an slight upper hand even against an MK.

Your main is ice climbers and you get stuck on brinstar vs a Metaknight. Your main is ice climbers and you get stuck on Lylat against a Snake.
Allowing the loser the knowledge of characters before they get to pick the stage will always result in a situation similar to this.

The reason people pick up secondaries is not usually because of stages, it is because of match ups. I play Snake and Falco, not because of silly stages like Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar, but for match-ups like King DDD.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

that is why you ban Brinstar vs any one as Ice climbers. Also Ice climbers have a bad MU with snake no matter what stage you choose(except maybe FD).

winner chooses character
loser chooses character
winner bans a stage
loser chooses stage

neutrals:
smashville
FD
battlefield

counterpicks:
PS 1
delfino plaza
helberd
brinstar
lylat cruise
yoshis Island
castle seige
frigate orpheon

There is no excuse for an Ice climber main to be put in that situation with a rule set ans stage list like this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Banning a ton of perfectly fine stages doesn't really change the situation you described in the first place, though you seem to be refusing to understand that the current system is clearly in the benefit of the person doing the counterpicking if they know what they are doing and that your proposed system really kills the viability of a lot of characters and overcentralizes the game around the characters who do well on the type of stage you are arbitrarily declaring fair. I strongly advise you to go to a real tournament and learn in person how things play out.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I am going to tell you rigt now what is wrong with every stage that did no make it on my list

norfair: causes characters like wario and MK to time people out. Until you guys have a solid definition on what stalling is, this stage should be banned. there are also too many stage hazards in this stage.

Pictochat: It could stay or go.I do not know much about this stage so I dont want to put it in the stage list

Green Greens: this stage makes it so that characters like snake and DDD are near unbeatable with way too many matches ending in time outs or SDs. This one should also be banned

Rainbow Cruise:gives MK, Wario and G&W way too much of an advantage. It gives them a second stage to go to if someone bans Brinstar or norfair which are also their best stages. This one should be banned or switched with Norfair or Brinstar.

Jungle Japes: This stage could also stay or go in my opinion. It only really helps two characters(Falco and DK). but it also messes up almost all the cast when playing against them. This stage can stay or go

PS 2: I never really liked the idea of stages that alter game play, like icy floors or gravity changes. It seems to mess people up with combos or with their buffering. This stage could stay or go in my opinion.

EDIT: Ive been attending tournaments since the game came out. The thing is that I just only recently made a SFW account.

 

[Linkshot]

Nothing is wrong with Rainbow Cruise.

Good luck timing out a wall of lava covering half the screen.

PictoChat is not as random as you probably think.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Nothing is wrong with Rainbow Cruise.

Good luck timing out a wall of lava covering half the screen.

PictoChat is not as random as you probably think.

Who said anything about random? Also thanks for bringing up the amount of hazards on norfair

 

[Linkshot]

Hazards keep you on your toes, and these are avoidable hazards.
Pay attention to your surroundings. This isn't an Arcade Fighter.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Last time I played on the stage, I had three of those lava spouts coming at me from every direction with no place to run or hide. I have a video to prove it, but no equipment to upload it.

 

[Linkshot]

You have a place to hide. It's called your shield.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Its called holding your shield for that long will get it broken

 

[sunshade]

norfair: causes characters like wario and MK to time people out. Until you guys have a solid definition on what stalling is, this stage should be banned. there are also too many stage hazards in this stage.

• Whats wrong with time outs?
  
• Whats wrong with hazards that are easy to see coming and even easier to avoid?
  
• we do have a definition for stalling. Quoted from the Brawl backroom official rule list.
  
  "Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

Pictochat: It could stay or go.I do not know much about this stage so I dont want to put it in the stage list

• If you dont fully understand a stage how can you make a judgment on its legality? If anything you should suggest it stay legal. If there is a lack of information about a stage it should be researched and tournaments are the most effective method of doing this.
  
• Thread with massive ammounts of info about pictochat.
  http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=270499

Green Greens: this stage makes it so that characters like snake and DDD are near unbeatable with way too many matches ending in time outs or SDs. This one should also be banned

• Snakes and king dedede are not "near unbeatable" on green greens.
  
• Time outs are not an issue with green greens. It is one of the smallest stages, has hazards and tight confined areas were damage will rack quickly.
  
• If you really think time outs are an issue with this stage, you have never played on it in tournament or someone was messing with you.
  
• If you self destruct it is your own fault.
  
• for more on Green greens see this thread:
  http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243289

Rainbow Cruise:gives MK, Wario and G&W way too much of an advantage. It give them a second stage to go to if someone bans Brinstar or norfair which are also their best stages. This one should be banned or switched with Norfair or Brinstar.

• Final Destination:gives IC's, Falco, and Diddy way to much of an advantage. It give them a second stage to go to if someone bans Smashville or Battlefield which are also their best stages. This one should be banned or switched with smashville or Battlefield.

Jungle Japes: This stage could also stay or go in my opinion. It only really helps two characters(Falco and DK). but it also messes up almost all the cast when playing against them.

• This stage does not "mess up almost all the cast", it messes up almost all players who dont know what they are doing on it.
  
• The klaptrap comes every 10 seconds and literally everyone (including pikmin-less Olimar and solo popo) can recover from the water provided you don't fall into the water to the left of the far left platform.

Last time I played on the stage, I had three of those lava spouts coming at me from every direction with no place to run or hide. I have a video to prove it, but no equipment to upload it.

• 3 out of 5 platforms being unsafe = the entire stage being a death zone with zero open areas. true facts.

PS 2: I never really liked the idea of stages that alter game play, like icy floors or gravity changes. It seems to mess people up with combos or with their buffering. This stage could stay or go in my opinion.

• How is the floor being icy or gravity being lower for 10-15seconds(ish) worse than say Final destination where the stage constantly encourages camping and gives major advantage to a three already strong characters?
  
• which transformation changes the number of frames in which you can preform an action early and have it come out on the first frame possible?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't fully understand Onette. Does that mean I should put it on the counterpick list?(In case you didnt know I was being sarcastic)
I dont think that there is anything wrong with time outs if it eventually comes to that, but intentionally timing someone out should be considered stalling
In green greens if you are playing DDD and you are smart as long as you have the lead you don't have to approach. How does that not end in a time out?
How about you go ahead and tell people to ban smashville and battlefeild. It might just give them a good laugh

 

[sunshade]

I don't fully understand Onette. Does that mean I should put it on the counterpick list?(In case you didnt know I was being sarcastic)

No it means you should seek out the knowledge of others so that you can make a better educated decision.

In my opinion Onett should be a legal counterpick, the car comes on a strict 13 second timer, has set knockback (meaning it can never kill), the cars prevent wall infinites (except on that super tiny slat, but it is ridiculously hard to grab even the worst players there). The only issue with the stage is the possibility of walk off camping which is hindered by the cars so much that I find it acceptable.

I dont think that there is anything wrong with time outs if it eventually comes to that, but intentionally timing someone out should be considered stalling

How do you determine if someone is intentionally timing someone out? What if they just happen to be naturally defensive players, playing a campy character like Wario, or Metaknight?

Even then whats wrong with timing someone out and whats wrong with stalling?

In green greens if you are playing DDD and you are smart as long as you have the lead you don't have to approach. How does that not end in a time out?

On [any stage] if you are playing [any character] and you are smart as long as you have the lead you don't have to approach. How does that not end in a time?

How about you go ahead and tell people to ban smashville and battlefeild. It might just give them a good laugh

You missed the point entirely.

I was showing how ridiculous your standards are by applying them to the common neutrals. My example was as factually accurate as yours. Why does Rainbow cruise not earn legality but Final destination does?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

WOW!!! I am really glad that you are on their side and not mine. Onette??? Seriously???

 

[sunshade]

First of all its Onett...

second of all, why is my opinion inaccurate? I gave a short explanation which addressed the main concerns in regard to the stage, why are they not legitimate responses?

Spoiler

if you are trolling, touché

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well I feel we have gotten way off topic and I still haven't heard a valid explanation to why this rule set does not work

winner chooses character
loser chooses character
winner bans a stage
loser chooses stage

 

[infomon]

Well by your own admission it invalidates a number of perfectly legitimate stages because any character/player with two bad stages gets severely wrecked... aside from that, it seems popular opinion (here, which isn't representative of the scene but it's what we've got) that it would also put a strong bias towards the winner of the first match because the loser's given such a strong advantage as the counterpicker.

Furthermore, many of us think that it would encourage degeneracy towards characters that are robust to stage diversity, as opposed to your idea that it would encourage people to just "stick to their main" because they'd feel the most competent with them (if I understand your argument correctly).

Really the question isn't "what's wrong with your suggestion" but "why is it better than what we've got". I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve, but I doubt it actually exists, and I doubt even more that your proposal would actually solve the problem.

Sorry for sounding harsh, and I do give you props for coming here and making a suggestion and debating it. I'm just very skeptical of the idea

 

[SaveMeJebus]

An example: You stay as the character you won with(lets say marth) you decide to stick. The other player lost with G&W and switches to diddy kong. what stage do you ban?

example 2: you won(with marth) you ban brinstar. your opponent says he will go FD. what do you do?

Keep in mind these are the same players

 

[Linkshot]

Example 3: This becomes the norm. People are afraid of stage disadvantages, so everybody starts maining MK so they don't have to worry about your counterpick.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If you used my stage lists then there would be no stages that would give anyone an advantage. By keeping the stages you have now, you are basically forcing people to pick up MK

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

By using your stage list, you are making the stage list ridiculously biased toward Ice Clmbers, Diddy Kong, and Falco with me feeling at least that Meta Knight and Snake benefit a lot too. The rest of the cast is definitely left out to dry. Ice Climbers especially are awful; I like how their best three stages in the entire game are the starters, and you are asserting it gives no one an advantage. You really do not understand the balance of this game; people are trying to tell you this. When you make arguments like "WOW!!! I am really glad that you are on their side and not mine. Onette??? [sic] Seriously???" you also kinda destroy any credibility you might have had; that's not even an argument.

In summary, it doesn't work because most of the cast gets manhandled by your stage list, and without your stage list, most of the cast is still manhandled by the increased power of counterpicking so it's too risky to use most characters on the opponent's cp.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

yeah but what you forget to mention is that with the current ruleset(MLG) that everyone is using, you could ban those three stages right off the bat. This give those same characters you just mentioned a disadvantage because now they have to win in a stage that might give them a disadvantage. Also all of the new stages that you added do not do a thing to help those same characters(except maybe pictochat).

What you guys do not understand is that I am not here to tell you that you are doing things wrong and that everything must be changed. What I am trying to do is come together with you guys so that we can make a rule set that is more effective then the one that we have now. Of coarse my rule set is not perfect either. If it was I wouldn't have so many people who are against it. But thats why Im here, to clear up any problems that you might have with my rule set. Sure I might get a little defensive when you guys criticize my Ideas, but hay Im only human.

From now on instead of just repeating ourselves, let us give examples to why our rules aren't working, this way we can find a way to make our rule set even better. In my opinion I think that this is better than putting down every idea that comes our way just because it may be new. I am sorry if I offended anybody in my past posts. I will try to hold myself back next time

 

[sunshade]

Whats wrong with the current counterpick systeam?

From your previous posts I am going to assume you will say something along the lines of "it is wrong to have someone be counterpicked on their counterpick".

In reality this never happens unless a player makes a massive misjudgment in stage selection, or chooses to stay with their character should the opponent change characters. The counterpicker, chooses his character second and thus has the ability to adapt more so than the victor of the previous round, and as a result gains the advantage. The intention is to give an advantage, not a free win.

I don't see the point of fixing a problem which does not exist.

I would also like to point out that having a larger starting list does not result in the starting stage being less fair/neutral. Having a larger stage list causes you to get a more accurate average of influence as a result of the stage. Stage striking causes players to move away from their best stages to the point in which stage advantage becomes less and less prevalent. A "neutral" in one match may be a counter pick in another, and striking from a larger stage causes the players to move closer to the point in which stage bias becomes equal, thus making it more "neutral".

So MLG's ruleset actually results in a fairer starting stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that the rule set should be fair to everyone, whether that be someone who mains only one character or someone who mains many characters. Right now I feel that the rule set favors those people who main more than one character. Also many of the top tier characters go 50-50 with the majority of the tourney viable cast on most of the old starter stages(that is if you strike FD on Ice climbers and Diddy)

 

[buenob]

but doesn't that force more character viability? since you have to learn more than one character to do well, the inherently means that more characters will do better in that system... yes I do know that it is more complicated than that, but there's a lot of proof that has to happen to overcome that base logic before I will be convinced...

 

[ErikG]

I think that the rule set should be fair to everyone, whether that be someone who mains only one character or someone who mains many characters. Right now I feel that the rule set favors those people who main more than one character. Also many of the top tier characters go 50-50 with the majority of the tourney viable cast on most of the old starter stages(that is if you strike FD on Ice climbers and Diddy)

First of all, you can only "main" one character; your main is your primary choice and generally best character. Those other player pick up secondaries, tertiaries, etc. The reason someone picks up a secondary is not because of the stages, but because of individual match ups. Changing the stages will (generally) not change a character's bad match ups. This is the reason why most people pick up a secondary.

Your main argument is that the current system caters to players that spent the time to pick up more than one character. A simple counter-argument is that your system caters to people who only decided to learn one character.

 

[Linkshot]

Your main argument is that the current system caters to players that spent the time to pick up more than one character. A simple counter-argument is that your system caters to people who only decided to learn one character.

I think that was his point...the system should benefit those that stick to one character.
This is entirely against my beliefs. My belief is that adaptation is a skill, too.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that we should make a poll for people that picked up MK or a secondary because of the MLG stage list

 

[sunshade]

What could we learn from such a poll?

We already know that metaknight is good on multiple stages.

We already know that there is a character who preforms better on each stage (other than rainbow cruise).

We already know that he is the best character in the game and the best secondary regardless of stage list for just about every character (if he is not the best secondary he is without a doubt the best tertiary).

Regardless of that, the margin of error on the survey would be so massive the data will be completely ignored as a reliable source of information.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

then how come they made a poll for the MK ban

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There was a poll on Meta Knight because the SBR wanted to know where frequent smashboards members stood. We had reason to believe many people considered Meta Knight ban-worthy; he was a unique and controversial issue. On the other hand, we have no reason to believe Meta Knight does particularly better on the MLG stage list than on any other stage list (the MLG Orlando tournament results don't suggest it!). What would be the point in having a poll on the matter?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

the MLG tournament wasn't seeded so a lot of the MKs got knocked out by other MKs.

 

[Aqua S.G.]

i love smashville.......

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I think that pirate ship deserves to be legal. I approve of this message.

 

[MikeKirby]

Pardon my ignorance but what happens when a player is seeded?

I think the MLG stage list was great. It added more variety. I don't think any of the stages really catered to one character or made anything more unbalanced.

 

[sunshade]

the MLG tournament wasn't seeded so a lot of the MKs got knocked out by other MKs.

Like who? Give me names.

I really don't think a lack of seeding would cause massive inaccuracy in data and if someone is going to say otherwise I want proof.

I think that pirate ship deserves to be legal. I approve of this message.

Pirate ship is legal counterpick according to the brawl backroom's recommended stage list. Pirate ship just happens to be commonly banned by tournament officials.

But for the sake of discussion, why? Many people feel that it is not fit for competitive play due to water camping being viewed as a stronger version of planking (personally I don't find it to be).

Pardon my ignorance but what happens when a player is seeded?

I think the MLG stage list was great. It added more variety. I don't think any of the stages really catered to one character or made anything more unbalanced.

Seeding is when you organize brackets so better players do not play until later rounds. For example the player expected to be in first place gets the first spot on the bracket and will be placed on the opposite end of the bracket as the person expected to get second. The idea is to increase the enjoyment of watching the tournament because the matches will become progressively more competitive as the tournament moves into higher brackets.

Mlg was not seeded so there was a chance that players like M2k could play ally in the first round and cause a skilled competitor to be bumped out early. I don't think much of that happened myself and have not seen anyone provide proof that it occurred.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

here are some examples of people who got sent into losers bracket early or got knocked out early in MK dittos :lee martin dmbrandon sebrik havok meroknight atomsk and tyrant

 

[infomon]

here are some examples of people who got sent into losers bracket early or got knocked out early in MK dittos

Why would you say they got knocked down "early"? Did they lose to a player worse than themselves? In a matchup as fair as a ditto?

hehe

 

[Raziek]

Why would you say they got knocked down "early"? Did they lose to a player worse than themselves? In a matchup as fair as a ditto?

hehe

It's moreso the fact that these players are expected to make it significantly farther in the bracket, had they not played each other early. It happens. I've placed 7th in tournaments before because I played the only two people I lose to early in winner's, and before finals in losers. I could easily have gotten 3rd, otherwise.

Scale that up to a 200 person tournament, and you see people like NEO being knocked out obscenely early, though other factors are arguably involved.