Official Stage Legality Discussion

[infomon]

Oh rightright of course, I was being dumb.

Edit: psyduck's cool too

 

[Mr. Game and Watch Jn.]

I'm new to discussing stage legality, and don't know any stuff like light circling (Most of my reasons might be instantly killed due to stuff like that, oh wellz ). However, I feel that Pictochat should be moved to Conterpick/Starter or Starter. I think that even with the hazards, there's a big safety zone + all of the hazards are pathetically easy to doge anyway. And the bits where the are just drawings, I just work around the drawing, no need to have to develop a totally different strategy. The most annoying non-hazard drawing I would say is the bit where it draws a big diagonal line across the screen, but the drawings don't last very long either. It's basically FD without that annoying lip.

 

[Kaffei]

I think Brinstar should be banned because MK dominates so hard on that stage when he CPs it.

Although other characters can perform pretty well on there in other MUs, MK just takes the meat when he plays there. Characters who can go toe to toe with MK on most/all neutrals suddenly have a significant disadvantage on Brinstar. They have to fight two things now: MK & the Lava.

Since the BBR is majority anti ban apparently, we should restrict MK's stage choices so he's less dominant and people can have more fun playing Brawl.

 

[sunshade]

I think Brinstar should be banned because MK dominates so hard on that stage when he CPs it.

Although other characters can perform pretty well on there in other MUs, MK just takes the meat when he plays there. Characters who can go toe to toe with MK on most/all neutrals suddenly have a significant disadvantage on Brinstar. They have to fight two things now: MK & the Lava.

Since the BBR is majority anti ban apparently, we should restrict MK's stage choices so he's less dominant and people can have more fun playing Brawl.

I am of the mindset that unless a tactic/character/game setting is broken or majorly hinders competitive play it should not be removed. Metaknight while very good on Brinstar is far from a guaranteed win.

In terms of terms of using stage policy to weaken metaknight I will say that we already do that to a point that I find disgusting. The common 5 neutral set up used by tournaments is designed to assist top tier characters other than metaknight and features the best possible stages for Ice climbers, diddy kong, and falco. Final destination is also one of metaknights worst stages and is kept in the common starter list specifically for that reason. Final destination is often the best possible counterpick for many characters and will get banned more often than just about any other stage and it is for that reason I do not view it to be a fair enough stage to be called a starter.

I feel we should stop using stage policy/metaknight targeted rules to limit metaknight and instead evaluate how good he is as a character. I see no advantage to damaging the competitive integrity and fairness of brawl so that we can keep a character who limits character diversity and forces the removal of multiple stages.

but thats just my 2 cents.

 

[Kaffei]

I am of the mindset that unless a tactic/character/game setting is broken or majorly hinders competitive play it should not be removed. Metaknight while very good on Brinstar is far from a guaranteed win.

In terms of terms of using stage policy to weaken metaknight I will say that we already do that to a point that I find disgusting. The common 5 neutral set up used by tournaments is designed to assist top tier characters other than metaknight and features the best possible stages for Ice climbers, diddy kong, and falco. Final destination is also one of metaknights worst stages and is kept in the common starter list specifically for that reason. Final destination is often the best possible counterpick for many characters and will get banned more often than just about any other stage and it is for that reason I do not view it to be a fair enough stage to be called a starter.

I feel we should stop using stage policy/metaknight targeted rules to limit metaknight and instead evaluate how good he is as a character. I see no advantage to damaging the competitive integrity and fairness of brawl so that we can keep a character who limits character diversity and forces the removal of multiple stages.

but thats just my 2 cents.

Then why isn't he banned already? Why hasn't the BBR decided to ban a character who has a near unbeatable plank, a near unbeatable scrooge, a down b that leaves him invincible for how long your muscles can spam up on the C stick, no bad match ups, a gay tornado?

It's been 2 years and he's not banned. What is BBR doing. Like I said, apparently BBR is majority anti ban. Then he's never gonna get banned, so we should restrict him so he doesn't have so many advantages.

 

[sunshade]

Then why isn't he banned already? Why hasn't the BBR decided to ban a character who has a near unbeatable plank, a near unbeatable scrooge, a down b that leaves him invincible for how long your muscles can spam up on the C stick, no bad match ups, a gay tornado?

It's been 2 years and he's not banned. What is BBR doing. Like I said, apparently BBR is majority anti ban. Then he's never gonna get banned, so we should restrict him so he doesn't have so many advantages.

If I knew I could tell you. If we were to play based on the BBR recommended ruleset where most stages are legal (rightfully so in my opinion) and there is no limitation of planking and scrooging than meta knight would meet just about any ban criteria (IDC is banned under the stalling rule of the BBR rules, but because it is impossible to tell when it is being used to stall it is banned in all forms).

Sadly there is not much more I can say, other than meta knight discussion does not belong in this thread unless in regards to stage legality.

 

[Linkshot]

I see no advantage to damaging the competitive integrity and fairness of brawl so that we can keep a character who limits character diversity and forces the removal of multiple stages.

And this is why I want D3 banned...He makes a handful of characters completely unviable, and then a handful of stages, too.

 

[sunshade]

And this is why I want D3 banned...He makes a handful of characters completely unviable, and then a handful of stages, too.

King dedede has exploitable weaknesses and stages with walk-offs are banned for walk-off camping more so than chaingrabs.

The only character King Dedede single handedly makes nonviable is Donkey Kong who even then is questionable in terms of tournament viability.

 

[Linkshot]

I thought Dedede shut down Mario and Samus, too? Oh well.

Y'know, I wonder why more people don't take MK to Pictochat.

 

[sunshade]

I thought Dedede shut down Mario and Samus, too? Oh well.

King Dedede has infinite chain-grabs on seven characters. Those with there text in green are viable regardless of the chain grabs existence, those with yellow are questionable, and those in red are nonviable regardless of the chaingrabs existence.

ledge chain grab set up by running chain grab

ledge grab release infinite set up by running chain grab

standing,walking,running,ledge chain grabs.

ledge chain grab set up by walking/running chain grab

standing chain grab which requires 1 pummel between throws. assuming the player mashes properly this wont work until 60%ish.

standing chain grab which requires 1 pummel between throws. assuming the player mashes properly this wont work until 60%ish.

standing chain grab which requires 1 pummel between throws. assuming the player mashes properly this wont work until 60%ish.

Y'know, I wonder why more people don't take MK to Pictochat.

for the same reason people play characters other than Metaknight I guess, general dislike or lack of understanding.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

so maybe we should make the poll. You also forgot to mention the characters that he has ledge infinites on

 

[sunshade]

no I didn't, he only has ledge infinites on himself, bowser, wario, and donkey kong.

What would your poll help us with? Your poll was to find out how many people switched to metaknight as a secondary because of the MLG's stage list, which would give us just about no useful information. Or are you saying we should make a poll to find out if people want Dedede banned, in which case I have no doubts left in my mind that you are trolling.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

well you forgot wolf. I think we should make a poll to at least figure out what stages we should take out from the MLG stage list

 

[sunshade]

Dedede has a walking chaingrab on wolf which is much more difficult to preform however I have never heard of or seen a ledge infinite used on a wolf player before. If this is new discovery (within the last 3-4 months) than I apologize for being ignorant.

Again, what would the poll accomplish? If we allowed majority rule for everything in the community we would have a terrible game. Brawl has a massive amount of customization to it, so much so that we needed to create a council of top players to serve as a government for the community so that standards for competitive play could be created by a well educated few.

Many people do not understand stages that they find to be "gay" or "cheep", and they instead stick to only playing stages they are comfortable with. Many players don't know that on jungle japes the clap trap is not random (it comes every 10 seconds on the dot) and because of that don't realize that if you are hit by it, you are at fault, not an act of brawl randomness. This causes players to unjustly calling for its removal.

Democracy is not always the best course of action.

 

[Linkshot]

I was also thinking about the counterpick system, and I was wondering...
Would it be more fair if you get to counterpick only when you're losing the set? This would prevent the Winner of Game 1 getting a sure win because he gets to choose the Game 3 stage. Game 3 (or 5) would go down to Stage Striking again.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

they should make a poll and have only SBR members allowed to vote

 

[deepseadiva]

Y'know, I wonder why more people don't take MK to Pictochat.

How was this a question in my presence?

Pictochat is my CP of choice.

In the Peach vs MK match-up, Shuttle Loop is the main offender. It shuts down Peach's perfectly excellent shield game - but on Pictochat, she gets it back. Shield pressure under hazards like the piranha plant, or the skateboard, and if MK Shuttle Loops, he eats a very lethal hit. It's delicious.

The hazards also cramp his normally ridiculous maneuverability - if you're lucky.

You equally might end up getting the thousand platforms, and for a campy MK there's nothing better.

 

[Karcist]

Question: Why isn't Rumble Falls a CP? This map is fun and besides walk offs and a spike that is only at one spot on the map, I don't see any huge problems.

 

[T-block]

How was this a question in my presence?

Pictochat is my CP of choice.

In the Peach vs MK match-up, Shuttle Loop is the main offender. It shuts down Peach's perfectly excellent shield game - but on Pictochat, she gets it back. Shield pressure under hazards like the piranha plant, or the skateboard, and if MK Shuttle Loops, he eats a very lethal hit. It's delicious.

The hazards also cramp his normally ridiculous maneuverability - if you're lucky.

You equally might end up getting the thousand platforms, and for a campy MK there's nothing better.

I'm not sure about taking MK to Pictochat as Peach. When there's no drawing, there are no platforms, which means Shuttle Loop is going to be at its best against a character like Peach, making it very hard for you to approach. You can wait for a hazard to appear, but if you're looking to stop Shuttle Loop OoS with it, you're waiting on Fire, Cart, and Plant. That's 3/27 transformations where you can approach, with no guarantee that any of them will even show up in the first 5 minutes.

That said, I do like taking MK to Pictochat as PT and Diddy.

Question: Why isn't Rumble Falls a CP? This map is fun and besides walk offs and a spike that is only at one spot on the map, I don't see any huge problems.

It's banned because people are scared to play on it. I agree it should be legal... walkoffs aren't even much of a problem on this stage. I mean...if I were D3 I still wouldn't CP RF.

 

[victra♥]

lol maiko. you would post in this thread wouldn't you.

Question: Why isn't Rumble Falls a CP? This map is fun and besides walk offs and a spike that is only at one spot on the map, I don't see any huge problems.

=.=

 

[T-block]

It's an example of a reasonable, open-minded person, Vic

EMULATE HIM

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm not sure about taking MK to Pictochat as Peach. When there's no drawing, there are no platforms, which means Shuttle Loop is going to be at its best against a character like Peach, making it very hard for you to approach. You can wait for a hazard to appear, but if you're looking to stop Shuttle Loop OoS with it, you're waiting on Fire, Cart, and Plant. That's 3/27 transformations where you can approach, with no guarantee that any of them will even show up in the first 5 minutes.

It's not like Peach doesn't have an answer to Shuttle Loop - Final Destination is usually the favored CP in that match normally. Pictochat is basically FD with the added bonus of constricting SL on occasion. Small, but very powerful (you're also forgetting the rockets, spikes, and side-spikes, and the numerous platform transformations that make landing after the SL very awkward).

 

[T-block]

Ah all right...I'll take your word for it since I don't know Peach vs. MK all that well. I can't see the rockets or side-spikes restricting SL all that much. As for the spikes, I doubt you'd be able to take advantage of them in that way, since approaching is often unwise on that transformation.

 

[Linkshot]

For Rumble Falls, I do believe it should be Counterpick. The main offender is the chokepoint, since whoever gets there first gains a potential suicide attack. A handful of characters can maneuver their way around the chokepoint.

I think they're...
Luigi
Peach?
Diddy
Wario (maybe needs a Fart)
Toon Link
Samus?
Pit
ROB
Kirby
Meta Knight
Dedede
Fox?
Falco?
Captain Falcon (maybe with a Falcon Kick from one of the platforms to start off)
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Lucas
G&W?
Sonic?

A lot of these need testing. I was imagining it in my head and some of them might not be able.
If you want me to elaborate on methods to get around the chokepoint with each individual character, I can pull out what I think is possible.

 

[Karcist]

For Rumble Falls, I do believe it should be Counterpick. The main offender is the chokepoint, since whoever gets there first gains a potential suicide attack. A handful of characters can maneuver their way around the chokepoint.

I think they're...
Luigi
Peach?
Diddy
Wario (maybe needs a Fart)
Toon Link
Samus?
Pit
ROB
Kirby
Meta Knight
Dedede
Fox?
Falco?
Captain Falcon (maybe with a Falcon Kick from one of the platforms to start off)
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Lucas
G&W?
Sonic?

A lot of these need testing. I was imagining it in my head and some of them might not be able.
If you want me to elaborate on methods to get around the chokepoint with each individual character, I can pull out what I think is possible.

Interesting, I'll have to try it out.

 

[sunshade]

For Rumble Falls, I do believe it should be Counterpick. The main offender is the chokepoint, since whoever gets there first gains a potential suicide attack. A handful of characters can maneuver their way around the chokepoint.

When you say choke point are you referring to the line that you start out on which you cannot drop through or are you talking about the small passage created by the two large stone structures?

In either case I don't understand why the choke point is an issue with the stage. I always viewed over centralization around camping as the issue with the stage.

 

[Kaffei]

If I knew I could tell you. If we were to play based on the BBR recommended ruleset where most stages are legal (rightfully so in my opinion) and there is no limitation of planking and scrooging than meta knight would meet just about any ban criteria (IDC is banned under the stalling rule of the BBR rules, but because it is impossible to tell when it is being used to stall it is banned in all forms).

Sadly there is not much more I can say, other than meta knight discussion does not belong in this thread unless in regards to stage legality.

Well I wanted to talk about banning Brinstar, and someone directed me here -.-

 

[PurpleTop]

Well I wanted to talk about banning Brinstar, and someone directed me here -.-

Why should it be banned?

 

[Kaffei]

Why should it be banned?

Cus

I think Brinstar should be banned because MK dominates so hard on that stage when he CPs it.

Although other characters can perform pretty well on there in other MUs, MK just takes the meat when he plays there. Characters who can go toe to toe with MK on most/all neutrals suddenly have a significant disadvantage on Brinstar. They have to fight two things now: MK & the Lava.

Since the BBR is majority anti ban apparently, we should restrict MK's stage choices so he's less dominant and people can have more fun playing Brawl.

That's why

 

[sunshade]

Well I wanted to talk about banning Brinstar, and someone directed me here -.-

Ah well if that is the case then the question is if Brinstar gives a large enough advantage to Metaknight to warrant a removal from the stage list. I personally say no; Metaknight is the best character in the game and we should be sure not to confuse his inherent superiority over the rest of the cast with the advantage given on Brinstar.

If we want to remove Brinstar from the stage list for giving Metaknight to large an advantage then we should also remove Final Destination for making inferior characters appear to be almost equal to Metaknight. The advantage Diddy, Falco, and Ice climbers gain while on Final destination is easily greater than the advantage Metaknight receives on Brinstar.

If we are going to ban a stage we need to first create a criteria. If any stage giving an advantage equal to or greater than that of Metaknight on Brinstar is bannable under our criteria than we must apply that standard to all stages. In doing that we will need to ban just about every counterpick no placed in the stater/counter pick list.

 

[Kaffei]

Ah well if that is the case then the question is if Brinstar gives a large enough advantage to Metaknight to warrant a removal from the stage list. I personally say no; Metaknight is the best character in the game and we should be sure not to confuse his inherent superiority over the rest of the cast with the advantage given on Brinstar.

If we want to remove Brinstar from the stage list for giving Metaknight to large an advantage then we should also remove Final Destination for making inferior characters appear to be almost equal to Metaknight. The advantage Diddy, Falco, and Ice climbers gain while on Final destination is easily greater than the advantage Metaknight receives on Brinstar.

If we are going to ban a stage we need to first create a criteria. If any stage giving an advantage equal to or greater than that of Metaknight on Brinstar is bannable under our criteria than we must apply that standard to all stages. In doing that we will need to ban just about every counterpick no placed in the stater/counter pick list.

Those inferior characters have only one reliable CP vs Meta Knight then, FD, as you presented.
Meta Knight have TWO and more he can rely on. Brinstar and RC (+Other stages that are still great for MK like Delfino)

Characters like IC rely on what stage they are on to perform optimally.
On Brinstar you have to fight Lava and MK, those other characters are going to have a much more harder time maneuvering around Brinstar especially when the lava comes up.

 

[Linkshot]

When you say choke point...

I mean the narrow passage.
I'm quite sure you can't circle forever.

 

[ErikG]

Those inferior characters have only one reliable CP vs Meta Knight then, FD, as you presented.
Meta Knight have TWO and more he can rely on. Brinstar and RC (+Other stages that are still great for MK like Delfino)

Characters like IC rely on what stage they are on to perform optimally.
On Brinstar you have to fight Lava and MK, those other characters are going to have a much more harder time maneuvering around Brinstar especially when the lava comes up.

IC's stage dependence is one of their major flaws.

But why ban Brinstar instead of Rainbow Cruise?
The upward scrolling portion of Cruise is worse than Brinstar's lava.

 

[Kaffei]

IC's stage dependence is one of their major flaws.

But why ban Brinstar instead of Rainbow Cruise?
The upward scrolling portion of Cruise is worse than Brinstar's lava.

You main Snake. You should know why.

 

[ErikG]

You main Snake. You should know why.

Brinstar is generally a bad stage for me, but I do not think it is ban-worthy. Your argument seemed to be that Metaknight has too powerful of options for counterpicks. It's Metaknight; he'll always have options and solid counterpicks.


I practice on Brinstar a lot. Angled platforms are great for grenade shenanigans. I'd probably take a decent portion of the cast there if I didn't have Halberd.

 

[Akaku94]

We simply can't ban stages just because they are good for MK. He'll always have a safe option, whether it's RC, Brinstar, or even a neutral. I personally have had enough of us trying to change the whole game because of one element. I'm not going to get into MK ban discussion here, but my point is, we can't ban stages just because they're a good counterpick. As a Kirby main, I want RC and Brinstar to stay around. Should all the Kirbys be punished by losing two of their most reliable counterpicks? There are others who can CP those stages. Should they be punished because their best CPs make a broken character even more broken? If we're that worried about the situation, ban the character, not the stages.

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS A BAN ON META KNIGHT ON THIS FORUM!!!

 

[Linkshot]

I've been collecting more data on Rumble Falls (but...in Minus, luls).

With a speed-up active, I think Mario can make it. Just use your Walljump and Cape.
Luigi has absolutely no problem. Green Missile -> Double Jump Cyclone -> Green Missile.
Peach requires some effort and patience. Just watch out for the lip when floating over.
Diddy can do it. Side+B -> Double Jump -> Wallcling -> Walljump -> UpB (full charge; camera will help you).
I wouldn't rely too much on DK, but you can try.
Bowser is hopeless; MAYBE barely on a speed-up.
Yoshi can make it. Egg Toss -> Egg Toss -> Hover -> Egg Toss.
Wario doesn't have too much trouble. Bike -> Bike Jump -> Double Jump -> UpB.

I figured out you can avoid it on the right, too...luls.
Anyone wanna collect data+methods in vBrawl?

 

[T-block]

Cool stuff, Linkshot. I think I might try to help if I have time next week. Then we can make a giant thread discussing its legality and watch everyone explode in fury.

 

[Linkshot]

Rumble Falls Chokepoint Data

Okay, lots of people have been asking me "What is this?"
I'll explain.
I'm keeping track of who can avoid the chokepoint -- the narrow part of Rumble Falls where there are rock walls on either side of you -- by veering left and "climbing" the rock.
As well, I mention how they do it.
"Side Notes" are just fun things I noticed that I felt deserve mentioning.


Jump -> Double Jump -> Wall Jump -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Didn't notice anything special.


SideB -> Double Jump Boosted DownB -> UpB.
Side Note: Loves this stage; easy to traverse, mostly upward movement. A must for all Weegees.


Jump -> SideB -> Float. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Lots of float tricks, can cancel SpecialFall by catching ladders, camera pushes her during floats, standing Toad triggered by the row of spikes freely, can slap last spike with dTilt and not get hurt (lol)


Can't make it. If he can, the timing is extremely strict and speed-up only.
Side Note: Klaw Hop can be used to climb 90% of the stage. Had lots of fun with this.


Jump -> Double Jump -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Can dSmash the last spike while standing beside it, but kills DK off the top. Can safely stand on top of the death spike and Hand Slap it (Down B). Can stand in the pool of water and uTilt to open the gate above DK. Seriously, you have to see the dSmash.


Jump -> SideB -> Double Jump -> Wallcling -> Wall Jump -> UpB.
Side Note: Spikes break peanuts, dSmash can be spaced to hit both crates on the plane.


Jump -> Hover -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Hover armours through the middle set of spikes, sidestep stops all momentum from death spike, Hip Drop startup ignores the moving platforms.


...........I don't know how long I've been working on this.
JUST MAYBE: Jump -> Double Jump -> Bike Jump -> UpB. Otherwise requires Waft
Side Note: The Bike...oh god. It's so spazzy here. Also, fTilt Down punches meteor spike harmlessly. But the bike....I don't think Bikes are supposed to do any of that.


Jump -> Double Jump -> UpB -> Bomb -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: .....lol. To catch the part with the ledge, same tactic, or throw the bomb at the wall when at 70%.


Jump -> Double Jump -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: uSmash from the little pool of water at the beginning, can dSmash meteor spike harmlessly.

:shiek:
Jump -> Double Jump -> Wallcling -> Walljump -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Falls too fast to cling to the wall without a speed-up, needles get dragged by the camera for mindgames.


DownB from tilting platform while pointed down -> Double Jump -> UpB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Murder Choke, Super Jump. I think these are self explanatory. Also, can Lagless Stomp across 99% of the stage. I think I can safely say "win".


Jump -> Double Jump -> Walljump. Requires Speed-Up
OR
Jump -> Double Jump -> UpB -> Bomb -> UpB.
Side Note: Z-dropping bombs on platforms causes them to flail wildly, can immediately land on platforms while approaching from below by pulling out a bomb (very small window of opportunity)


Jump -> Bomb Jump -> Double Jump -> Walljump -> UpB.
Side Note: Bomb Jumps aren't as standard as before, don't dTilt the meteor spike, great maneuverability overall.


UpB-Boosted Jump -> UpB-Boosted Double Jump -> DownB. Requires Speed-Up
Side Note: Flip Kick Walljump will give you so much momentum you die off the side, can Flip Kick Walljump inside the chokepoint, dSmash on the trap floors will be autocancelled by the button opening them.


UpB. Yes, that's all.
Side Note: Arrows from the bottom of the stage are beastly.


Nana: Jump -> Double Jump -> SideB. Requires Speed-Up
Solo: Can't make it
Side Note: The platforms are close enough for Nana to be on a separate one but stay synched. Easiest way to do this is UpB. Ice Blocks slide and bounce nearly everywhere.


UpB. That's all.
Side Note: Gyro only stops bouncing when the stage is moving its slowest, effectively staying out forever. Also gets flung around by spikes.


Jump -> Float -> Float -> Float -> Float -> Float -> UpB
Side Note: Kirby can reach the platform ABOVE the rock wall with UpB. fSmash and fTilt are cancelled by trap doors, can use Stone to hit the Death Spike harmlessly for luls. Stone instantly breaks the crates when fresh. Only needs to use 3 floats during speedups. Stone lands back onto the disappearing vertical platforms during speed-up.


Jump -> Flap -> Flap -> Flap -> Flap -> Flap -> Any Special
Side Note: This is...MK's best stage. I'm about to go on a limb saying this gives him an unfair advantage; the kind walls give D3. He has so many bull**** ATs, frame traps, general traps, etc that it would take a 5-minute long video to show them all, and they're all "lol you died" kinda thing. MK literally abuses this stage, and there's even a ledge for him to plank at one point.

No longer advocating this stage unless MK gets the ban.

 

[Kaffei]

Brinstar is generally a bad stage for me, but I do not think it is ban-worthy. Your argument seemed to be that Metaknight has too powerful of options for counterpicks. It's Metaknight; he'll always have options and solid counterpicks.


I practice on Brinstar a lot. Angled platforms are great for grenade shenanigans. I'd probably take a decent portion of the cast there if I didn't have Halberd.

Someone should Ksizzle you

We simply can't ban stages just because they are good for MK. He'll always have a safe option, whether it's RC, Brinstar, or even a neutral. I personally have had enough of us trying to change the whole game because of one element. I'm not going to get into MK ban discussion here, but my point is, we can't ban stages just because they're a good counterpick. As a Kirby main, I want RC and Brinstar to stay around. Should all the Kirbys be punished by losing two of their most reliable counterpicks? There are others who can CP those stages. Should they be punished because their best CPs make a broken character even more broken? If we're that worried about the situation, ban the character, not the stages.

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS A BAN ON META KNIGHT ON THIS FORUM!!!

Kirby isn't making people mad. At least ban Brinstar and RC for MK.