Kinzer
Mammy
I've also stalled people with the Spring Jump on PSII, so yeah.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
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AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
For like 15 seconds out of the every like 3 minutes that transformation even comes, anyway.
There's not anything broken about it. It's just that it doesn't really seem to favor one character over another and there's a general distaste for the stage.
There's not anything broken about it. It's just that it doesn't really seem to favor one character over another and there's a general distaste for the stage.
professor mgw
Smash Champion
STARTER:FD,battlefield,smashville,pokemon statium(melee).
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Add one more, MGW (preferably 3 more, though). Starters have to come in Odd amounts for Stage Striking.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Have you not been listening to the Ice Climbers argument?
Also, in my last tourney, the IC ***** me. Sure, there were 7 neutrals, but they still managed to get their grabs in on Lylat.
Also, in my last tourney, the IC ***** me. Sure, there were 7 neutrals, but they still managed to get their grabs in on Lylat.
Maybe you just need to practice.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Prove that you have any idea what you're talking about. What makes you think Lylat is any worse than, say, BF for the ICs?
ICs sideB, stage tilts away, ICS miss the edge.
For characters with linear and/or short recoveries, Lylat is pretty bad. A good ICs will CG you on any stage.
@Bobson: Due to the fact the planker is on the edge more often, the lava has a greater chance to damage / kill the person chasing them down, thus forcing the person who's NOT planking to fight the other player and the stage.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Distant Planet should stay as a counter pick. Not counter/ban.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Then the IC main messed up. Not knowing where the ledge is/is moving is a player issue, not a character one; there aren't (m)any characters that don't also have this problem if you misjudge a recovery. In fact ICs have this problem less than many (most?) characters since their up-B tether can't miss.... again, unless the player screws up and it has nothing to do with the ICs.
Then why do so many good ICs feel the need to counterpick other chars on so many stages? (Norfair, RC, etc.) And Delfino / Castle Siege help limit the threat of CG dominance; one of the arguments why they should be in the starter list.
I think it's more like good Ice Climbers will chaingrab you on any stage, but there are two kinds of stages that are bad for them. One kind is the kind that has tons of jumping around so it's harder to land grabs. The other is one with features that unavoidably interrupt chaingrabs that you can position yourself near for risk reduction; the Ice Climbers can probably throw you into a hazard or something, but if you survive after taking any amount of damage after being grabbed by the united Ice Climbers, it's better than the expected outcome.
As per grabbing the ledge as Ice Climbers with side-B, how often does this sort of thing come up? They can't grab the ledge while doing the move so they have to grab the ledge after it ends. That means they have to use side-B at just such a spacing from the stage such that it's not a better idea to just recover onto the stage and that it ends pretty much right on top of the ledge (and not higher into the air). That strikes me as really obscure to the point that the situation existing at all is poor play on the part of the Ice Climbers player, but I'd buy that Lylat Cruise isn't their best stage just because of how much you can play platforms and force some jumping around there.
From what I've observed from actual play on Lylat Cruise, the idea of it screwing recoveries is just a myth. It doesn't matter if it's Ness or Meta Knight, Wolf or Olimar; literally every player I've seen that I'd consider good using his main simply never misses that ledge because it tilted away. It's just a little bit of stage knowledge how to nail tilting ledges consistently, and since Lylat Cruise and Castle Siege are legal at every tournament with Lylat Cruise almost always a starter, it's something very worth learning. It's really just as fundamental as learning how not to get caught under lips (Final Destination, Luigi's Mansion, Frigate Orpheon kinda, Lylat Cruise kinda, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1). It doesn't help you on every stage, but it helps you on stages you are not going to be able to avoid so it's more than a little prudent to learn it. I don't think the mandatory learning is really an argument against the stage's starter status at all since it's obviously far and away in everyone's best interest to put in the honestly pretty minimal effort regardless.
As per grabbing the ledge as Ice Climbers with side-B, how often does this sort of thing come up? They can't grab the ledge while doing the move so they have to grab the ledge after it ends. That means they have to use side-B at just such a spacing from the stage such that it's not a better idea to just recover onto the stage and that it ends pretty much right on top of the ledge (and not higher into the air). That strikes me as really obscure to the point that the situation existing at all is poor play on the part of the Ice Climbers player, but I'd buy that Lylat Cruise isn't their best stage just because of how much you can play platforms and force some jumping around there.
From what I've observed from actual play on Lylat Cruise, the idea of it screwing recoveries is just a myth. It doesn't matter if it's Ness or Meta Knight, Wolf or Olimar; literally every player I've seen that I'd consider good using his main simply never misses that ledge because it tilted away. It's just a little bit of stage knowledge how to nail tilting ledges consistently, and since Lylat Cruise and Castle Siege are legal at every tournament with Lylat Cruise almost always a starter, it's something very worth learning. It's really just as fundamental as learning how not to get caught under lips (Final Destination, Luigi's Mansion, Frigate Orpheon kinda, Lylat Cruise kinda, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1). It doesn't help you on every stage, but it helps you on stages you are not going to be able to avoid so it's more than a little prudent to learn it. I don't think the mandatory learning is really an argument against the stage's starter status at all since it's obviously far and away in everyone's best interest to put in the honestly pretty minimal effort regardless.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Oh noes a Copypasta Robot!
Xona
Smash Apprentice
If final destination can be starter, there is no reason that Lylat Cruise can't be. Lylat's edges can get annoying, but people can get used to them.
I still can't accept final destination as a starter stage. The reasons are:
Avoiding grabs is almost impossible! Dedede vs. Bowser and Dedede vs. DK are unwinnable here! On Battlefield one can avoid the initial grab by using the platforms to approach, and the only character that Dedede can infinite off a ledge is Dedede himself! Thus if Bowser or DK is grabbed on one of the higher platforms they can escape (unless DK is grabbed with Dedede's back to the edge of the platform). Technically Dedede does not have an infinite against Bowser, but he DOES have a guaranteed kill. At the % that Bowser will reach if Dedede does the small-step correctly, an F-throw will guarantee that Bowser can't recover.
Bowser, DK and Ganondorf have an insanely difficult time approaching a projectile spamming Falco or Dedede. Note that this alone certainly isn't enough, as they still can approach, but Bowser is also vulnerable to Dedede's D-throw infinite. Also, if ANY stages are banned because of Dedede's CG, then fd certainly shouldn't be starter, or Dedede's D-throw CG should be banned. I am NOT necessarily saying that fd should be banned, but I am saying that it shouldn't be starter.
As for Rumble Falls, it shouldn't be banned because the spike positions can be learned, the words "speed up" flash at least 10 seconds before speeding up. 10 seconds of obvious warning is more than enough. The arguments "fighting the stage" and "distracting from gameplay" are absolutely absurd. The potential ban-reasons are impossible match-ups, which none have been proven at all on Rumble Falls. (not that Ganondorf and Zelda do very well here)
Rumble Falls isn't the only banned stage that shouldn't be banned, Port Town Aero Dive can be learned (although it is a TON of work), Big Blue obviously can be learned, Summit's circle is debatably stopped by the low-gravity section and the water part, Norfair DOES prevent stalling, ect. There are far too many stage-bans, more than half of the stages in the game are banned. Before anyone asks for more stage-bans, we seriously need to reduce the number of stage-bans.
I still can't accept final destination as a starter stage. The reasons are:
Avoiding grabs is almost impossible! Dedede vs. Bowser and Dedede vs. DK are unwinnable here! On Battlefield one can avoid the initial grab by using the platforms to approach, and the only character that Dedede can infinite off a ledge is Dedede himself! Thus if Bowser or DK is grabbed on one of the higher platforms they can escape (unless DK is grabbed with Dedede's back to the edge of the platform). Technically Dedede does not have an infinite against Bowser, but he DOES have a guaranteed kill. At the % that Bowser will reach if Dedede does the small-step correctly, an F-throw will guarantee that Bowser can't recover.
Bowser, DK and Ganondorf have an insanely difficult time approaching a projectile spamming Falco or Dedede. Note that this alone certainly isn't enough, as they still can approach, but Bowser is also vulnerable to Dedede's D-throw infinite. Also, if ANY stages are banned because of Dedede's CG, then fd certainly shouldn't be starter, or Dedede's D-throw CG should be banned. I am NOT necessarily saying that fd should be banned, but I am saying that it shouldn't be starter.
As for Rumble Falls, it shouldn't be banned because the spike positions can be learned, the words "speed up" flash at least 10 seconds before speeding up. 10 seconds of obvious warning is more than enough. The arguments "fighting the stage" and "distracting from gameplay" are absolutely absurd. The potential ban-reasons are impossible match-ups, which none have been proven at all on Rumble Falls. (not that Ganondorf and Zelda do very well here)
Rumble Falls isn't the only banned stage that shouldn't be banned, Port Town Aero Dive can be learned (although it is a TON of work), Big Blue obviously can be learned, Summit's circle is debatably stopped by the low-gravity section and the water part, Norfair DOES prevent stalling, ect. There are far too many stage-bans, more than half of the stages in the game are banned. Before anyone asks for more stage-bans, we seriously need to reduce the number of stage-bans.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Rumble falls:
It has circle camping, a spike that if you hit and don't tech, you get punished for DEATH, a choke-point in which many characters dominate in, MK and Kirby u-throws can kill early here, circle camping, a huge benefit for CGing characters or characters with wall infinites, especially in the choke points or long ledges (while there's only one true walk-off, you can still forward throw at the end), circle camping, a gameplay that deteriorates into "hit and run, try to gimp during speed up sections), no ledges, and OLOL circle camping.
D3 vs. DK is unwinnable anywhere. That argument's moot.
It has circle camping, a spike that if you hit and don't tech, you get punished for DEATH, a choke-point in which many characters dominate in, MK and Kirby u-throws can kill early here, circle camping, a huge benefit for CGing characters or characters with wall infinites, especially in the choke points or long ledges (while there's only one true walk-off, you can still forward throw at the end), circle camping, a gameplay that deteriorates into "hit and run, try to gimp during speed up sections), no ledges, and OLOL circle camping.
D3 vs. DK is unwinnable anywhere. That argument's moot.
Rumble Falls is the stage Satan made himself, so naturally it deserves to be banned.
That and in a highly competetive scene you expects players to stop fighting and doge stage hazards? (In a FIGHTING game?)
I rest my case.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
Which doesn't work.
Which is incredibly obvious and should only ever come into play if the opponent knocks you into it.
Will people stop using the "death because you missed a tech" argument? If you get Warlock Punched into a wall and die, you didn't die because you missed a tech, you died because you got hit by a ****ing Warlock Punch.
True, but not nearly enough to ruin the stage. Plus, a lot of characters can get around it.
On some spots which can be avoided in general once you know the areas.
Which doesn't work.
Absolutely not. In speed-up sections a bunch of characters get dragged with the screen away from the CG and CGs are, in general, much harder to set up on this stage.
Which doesn't work.
Welcome to Super Smash Brothers Brawl.
This is an argument?
Which doesn't work.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
AvaricePanda, you obviously stopped playing this stage on the first day. There is a ledge that allows you to avoid the death spike.
bobson made the rest of the counterpoints already.
bobson made the rest of the counterpoints already.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
The spike isn't a small mistake. It's further from the stage than you think. Some characters don't even have to tech to survive; they hit the ground standing and you can walk to momentum cancel.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
In what universe is hitting the spike a small mistake? It's big, it's shiny, it flashes, it's only in one static spot in the stage, and there is a route to avoid it entirely. If your dumb blind *** somehow blunders into it, you fully fully deserve a stock loss (and you still have a chance to save yourself!).
The spike is not an argument. The spike has never been an argument. It's as worthless an argument as "I can't get the ledges right" for banning Lylat Cruise.
Okay, since the spike agurment is getting us nowhere. Let's move on to something else about Rumble Falls.
The speed in scrolling. Sure there's a warning, that falshes up (distraction) before it does. But some characters will have a hard time keeping up, mostly characters that have poor jumping height, and recovery (I'm looking at you Bowser...>_>). Character like Kirby, who have multiple jumps, will have no problem keeping up the pace. So a Bowser vs. Kirby situation on that stage is unfair. And if you get stuck under something while the stage is speeding up (like the walls once you get to the top of the waterfall) it usually results in a intsa-K.O. And then the spike, can be ran into during a speed up stage, and we all know how that turns out.
The speed in scrolling. Sure there's a warning, that falshes up (distraction) before it does. But some characters will have a hard time keeping up, mostly characters that have poor jumping height, and recovery (I'm looking at you Bowser...>_>). Character like Kirby, who have multiple jumps, will have no problem keeping up the pace. So a Bowser vs. Kirby situation on that stage is unfair. And if you get stuck under something while the stage is speeding up (like the walls once you get to the top of the waterfall) it usually results in a intsa-K.O. And then the spike, can be ran into during a speed up stage, and we all know how that turns out.
Snype
Smash Cadet
True alot of characters have hard times keeping with the stage mainly in a very serious 1 on 1, if you lose because of something like rumble falls speed. Then people can just say "oh I beat you 2 stock " when it is someone who plays DK of bowser to someone else playing Meta Knight.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Haven't you guys been listening at all? When you're in the air, the camera pushes you with it, making jump height not mean anything. The only thing that has to be faster is the player.
GwJ
Smash Hero
And what about characters like Bowser and Ganondorf? The only way they can keep up is by staying near the top of the stage the entire time which leaves him unprotected. Characters with larger/more jumps will have a near 100% victory as the opponent with the worse recovery is forced to let the opponent essentially plank them without consequence.
This is simply not true. Have you actually played more than 5 matches on this stage with these characters?
Don't waste your breath on these people. If they find that it benefits them, they would try to fight for ****ing 75m.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I have a lot of patience if I'm going to win money.
By your logic, you're saying I'd pick up Sonic and start fighting for New Pork City. I hate that stage. It's my least favourite stage, by far.
I know which stages are completely broken. You seem to think anything that strays from the norm is completely broken. But they aren't. They're just different.
By your logic, you're saying I'd pick up Sonic and start fighting for New Pork City. I hate that stage. It's my least favourite stage, by far.
I know which stages are completely broken. You seem to think anything that strays from the norm is completely broken. But they aren't. They're just different.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
like distant planet <3
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
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- 1,674
Hey, great! How about you leave this time instead of continuing to waste all of our time with terrible arguments which you then back up with "God, you guys love so much stupid ****, you are all just so dumb for not agreeing with my opinion," when they're soundly defeated.
As unfair as it would be on Rainbow Cruise.
The characters scroll with the camera, people. Heavies can keep up just fine. Play on the stage before making bull**** assumptions about why it should be banned.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
I fail to see how circle camping doesn't work on this stage. Please inform me?
The hit and run strategy is not a part of all of Brawl; just because like 4 well-placing players often do that doesn't mean THAT'S HOW ALL OF BRAWL WORKS THAT ARGUMENT IS INVALID! It's really easy to run on that stage. Reaaallly easy. Take Fox or Sonic, Rising Fair or Spring to the top, and run around. When the opponent catches up, you can either fast fall to the bottom (Fox FFs the quickest, so...) and then illusion around the place, then repeat.
Simply saying something "doesn't work" isn't convincing at all that it doesn't work.
Heavies aren't disadvantaged because they die during the speed-up section, it's just that faster vertically moving characters such as Fox or Sonic can run away more. What GWJ said was mostly right; they can only really fight these characters if they stay at the top, especially during the speed-up section. Just because the camera moves with them does not mean that they go up at a speed of Fox's rising fair.
The disadvantages greatly outweigh the benefits. You say it's the only stage that completely eliminates projectile camping, woo, but it greatly promotes circle camping and hit and run, and kind of CGs, and the like.
Stages that give a HUUUGE advantage to one character and basically hand them an auto win should be banned. It's why Luigi's Mansion (MK, Oli, more characters with stupid stuff) should be banned, Japes (Falco, Kirby) should be banned, Pirate Ship (Toon Link), should be banned, and Rumble Falls (Fox, Falco, Sonic) should be banned.
Oh, and when you're going to refute something, don't say stuff like, "Have you even played the stage more than twice? You obviously know nothing about it." That tells people NOTHING of how whatever they say is wrong or incorrect or whatever, just like how, "Circle camping doesn't work on this stage," or "You can beat Toon Link's water camping if you're skilled," doesn't tell me how circle camping doesn't work on this stage, or how you're supposed to beat TL's water camping.
Honestly, you haven't really "soundly refuted" anything about this stage. It's just that Kamikaze also sucks at debating and just complains about the stages without giving good reasons why they're bad.
The hit and run strategy is not a part of all of Brawl; just because like 4 well-placing players often do that doesn't mean THAT'S HOW ALL OF BRAWL WORKS THAT ARGUMENT IS INVALID! It's really easy to run on that stage. Reaaallly easy. Take Fox or Sonic, Rising Fair or Spring to the top, and run around. When the opponent catches up, you can either fast fall to the bottom (Fox FFs the quickest, so...) and then illusion around the place, then repeat.
Simply saying something "doesn't work" isn't convincing at all that it doesn't work.
Heavies aren't disadvantaged because they die during the speed-up section, it's just that faster vertically moving characters such as Fox or Sonic can run away more. What GWJ said was mostly right; they can only really fight these characters if they stay at the top, especially during the speed-up section. Just because the camera moves with them does not mean that they go up at a speed of Fox's rising fair.
The disadvantages greatly outweigh the benefits. You say it's the only stage that completely eliminates projectile camping, woo, but it greatly promotes circle camping and hit and run, and kind of CGs, and the like.
Stages that give a HUUUGE advantage to one character and basically hand them an auto win should be banned. It's why Luigi's Mansion (MK, Oli, more characters with stupid stuff) should be banned, Japes (Falco, Kirby) should be banned, Pirate Ship (Toon Link), should be banned, and Rumble Falls (Fox, Falco, Sonic) should be banned.
Oh, and when you're going to refute something, don't say stuff like, "Have you even played the stage more than twice? You obviously know nothing about it." That tells people NOTHING of how whatever they say is wrong or incorrect or whatever, just like how, "Circle camping doesn't work on this stage," or "You can beat Toon Link's water camping if you're skilled," doesn't tell me how circle camping doesn't work on this stage, or how you're supposed to beat TL's water camping.
Honestly, you haven't really "soundly refuted" anything about this stage. It's just that Kamikaze also sucks at debating and just complains about the stages without giving good reasons why they're bad.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
I fail to see how circle camping does work. Circle camping, as the name implies, requires a circle to camp around, and the circles that Rumble Falls does have come with the nasty tendency to scroll offscreen and foil all your plans.
Hit and run is the very core of Brawl. There are few combos. Followups require lots of reading and/or luck. Defensive play is generally always better than offensive play. Once a player lands a hit, the situation is reset; it's strategically optimal to then wait for your opponent to make a mistake before going back in, unless you can read them well.
You spring up to the top. I climb up to the top while remaining in the middle of the map. You fastfall down on either side, I intercept you. Alternatively, you stay up there long enough to risk getting hit by me anyway. Alternatively alternatively, the stage slows down and you can't camp anymore. Alternatively alternatively alternatively, the stage speeds up and you can't camp anymore (you just go ahead and fastfall during a speed-up segment, see where that gets you). Alternatively alternatively alternatively alternatively, I miss intercepting your fastfall, but it turns out that we're at the chokepoint anyway. Alternatively alternatively alternatively alternatively alternatively, surprise! There weren't actually any platforms for you to climb on! And so on and so forth. Maybe I'm Yoshi and I just fire eggs at your ***.
For a camping strategy to cause a ban of something, the chance of hitting the camper has to be nonexistent or very very small for an indefinite period of time, à la flying under the stage over and over or actual circle camping. This is absolutely not the case on Rumble Falls.
Nor is saying something "works."
Why would you bother actually arguing with them when they've already decided on a position and it's clear that they haven't actually played on the stage enough to know whether or not they're even close to being correct, especially when the point they're trying to make is downright untrue?
To pick at a random point, I think Falco's advantage on Jungle Japes is really overrated. Most people are just super bad at that stage and don't know how to optimally survive in the water (and also do completely idiotic things like jump into Klaptrap).
Anyway, I actually have played a good deal on Rumble Falls including with very slow characters against very fast characters, and I just have never seen run-away work. I can only really sit on my own experiences here in saying that it doesn't; I think it's fair to maintain that until compelling evidence to the contrary is presented. No one is going to be convinced of Rumble Falls just because most people want to ban it without discussion for reasons that have little to do with abstract concepts of fairness...
To get into how you beat running away on Rumble Falls, you need to go near the top yourself and "corner" them. The stage has a lot of natural chokepoints that force them into you; it's not very hard. If they are near the top too, it should be easy since you're both going to the same place.
Anyway, I actually have played a good deal on Rumble Falls including with very slow characters against very fast characters, and I just have never seen run-away work. I can only really sit on my own experiences here in saying that it doesn't; I think it's fair to maintain that until compelling evidence to the contrary is presented. No one is going to be convinced of Rumble Falls just because most people want to ban it without discussion for reasons that have little to do with abstract concepts of fairness...
To get into how you beat running away on Rumble Falls, you need to go near the top yourself and "corner" them. The stage has a lot of natural chokepoints that force them into you; it's not very hard. If they are near the top too, it should be easy since you're both going to the same place.
It's not a question of how to survive. That's easy; you buffer jump. The question is, will a second jump and upB get you back to the stage? If not, the water is going to kill you.
And if you get a Falco to CG you to the right, a good one will reverse boost grab and cg spike you the other way - I've lost to that tactic before.
From hitting the water off the left side of the main platform, as long as you use optimum survival, the entire cast, including Olimar with no pikmin, can survive. Just hold right as you fall (that may require using SDI when Falco meteors you, like you're expected to do on other stages to survive), hold forward to swim against the current, jump out of the water ASAP, SAVE YOUR DOUBLE JUMP and use it at the peak of your jump out of water (so many people are dumb and double jump immediately), and then use up special at the correct recovery time. This is what I mean by optimum survival; a lot of people just buffer the jump, continue to mash jump, and then die when they could have very easily lived.
You also have to consider that a lot of characters aren't going to be CG'd into that by Falco anyway. Like, Mr. Game & Watch can't really be CG'd by Falco past about 30%. If he picks Japes on me, honestly I'm happy. I get a good platform arrangement and the ability to fishbowl through the stage. The stage is even uneven so I can duck perfectly short hopped lasers when he's on the side platforms and I'm in the middle. Jigglypuff can't be CG'd at all! The stage is also generally amazing for her; she might actually CP it against Falco (though Norfair is tempting). Of course, even if he can CG you and you're a character who ordinarily gets grabbed a lot by Falco (which is a good sign you're going to lose on most stages, especially since those characters are mostly characters who were bad for a lot of reasons like Link), I'm just unconvinced it should actually kill you very often which means the fact that the stage is fairly short should actually help you (less damage).
You also have to consider that a lot of characters aren't going to be CG'd into that by Falco anyway. Like, Mr. Game & Watch can't really be CG'd by Falco past about 30%. If he picks Japes on me, honestly I'm happy. I get a good platform arrangement and the ability to fishbowl through the stage. The stage is even uneven so I can duck perfectly short hopped lasers when he's on the side platforms and I'm in the middle. Jigglypuff can't be CG'd at all! The stage is also generally amazing for her; she might actually CP it against Falco (though Norfair is tempting). Of course, even if he can CG you and you're a character who ordinarily gets grabbed a lot by Falco (which is a good sign you're going to lose on most stages, especially since those characters are mostly characters who were bad for a lot of reasons like Link), I'm just unconvinced it should actually kill you very often which means the fact that the stage is fairly short should actually help you (less damage).
Linkshot
Smash Hero
The only reason CG is better on this stage for Falco than any other stage is that if the player times it right, the CG ends with Spike -> Klaptrap (On the 7 for the right, 5 for the left).
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