Official Stage Legality Discussion

[JigglyZelda003]

Why do you say that I don't like winning?

cause MK excels on those two stages your all to happy to ban >.>

 

[link64e]

I have a quick question. Why is Rainbow Cruise allowed? I know some states do ban it, but it seems like a stage that would be banned automatically because of the stage scroll.

 

[Linkshot]

Stage Scroll does not merit a ban. A scrolling stage will not kill you unless it moves at unimaginable speeds and you're standing on a platform.

 

[deepseadiva]

I honestly don't think Rainbow Cruise would have been legal if it was solely in Brawl.

Why is it though? Melee stare decisis.

 

[Kamikaze*]

cause MK excels on those two stages your all to happy to ban >.>

All I know is that I don't play well on those stages. >_>

 

[fkacyan]

cause MK excels on those two stages your all to happy to ban >.>

MK doesn't require a CP stage; as those stages don't really grant significant advantages to anybody else (Minus tethers / plankers for Norfair), no reason to have both floating around.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It has a constant low ceiling, the hazards are easy to abuse (i.e. they either encourage camping for their duration or can be used to earn a kill off of a throw, etc), and you can go through the bottom of the stage. All of these things give great advantages to the two top-tier characters.

I am sorry this struck me as funny.
Are you seriously trying to use the hazards as a valid part of tyour argument?
The three hazards, laser, arm and cannon) are hardly any issue on the stage and do nothing to promote camping during their duration.

The amount of time during when they can actually harm you is very small (except for the laser which is VERY easily DI'd out of).
The argument about the a\the hazards promoting campipng is terrible simply because the hazards are so very slow and are actually capable of harming for such a short amount of time, so it makes little sense they promote camping.

K doesn't require a CP stage; as those stages don't really grant significant advantages to anybody else (Minus tethers / plankers for Norfair), no reason to have both floating around.

Wait what? Thats terrible logic.
MK doesnt need a CP stage
Snake doesnt need a Cp stage.
irrelevant.
Plus its terrible wording for what you intended to be said.

Do those characters become the only viable characters on stage stage? if yes, ban it. If not, leave it alone and make it CP. Especially when we have stage striking.

 

[Linkshot]

Better wording: Does it only benefit that character and nobody else?

 

[Hadesflame]

are this all correct or is there an updated one i need to know >.>

 

[Prawn]

I have a quick question. Why is Rainbow Cruise allowed? I know some states do ban it, but it seems like a stage that would be banned automatically because of the stage scroll.

Agreed.
10realitychecks

 

[Linkshot]

It's not hard to have a really good fight on Rainbow Cruise. At all. At least try it before vowing never to touch it.

 

[arch knight]

i would have to agree with linkshot on that it moves slowly other than the drop back onto the boat. however toon links boat i have a problem with the freaking thing spikes you if you cant just out fast enough and the pirate bombs are annoying and sometimes hard to judge where they will hit and the blst radius. ill play there but i wont like it the slightest bit


Skyworld is still unknown to me as to whether or not it should be banned i dont see problems with the stage

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

are this all correct or is there an updated one i need to know >.>

The original post contains completely up to date results from the SBR-B's stage list and includes the votes by which each stage was appropriated to its respective category. Stages highlighted in green were closer to the higher group than the lower one, and stages in red were closer to the lower group than the higher one (it should be clearly noted though that officially that means nothing and is just a quirk I threw in). However, your region may have different standards for stage legality; you would be best observing the rules at local tournaments and perhaps asking local TOs where they stand if that is your concern.

Anyway, I suppose not playing well on stages is fine for a reason to use a personal stage ban, but it would seem like a good idea to learn to play on stages like that, especially if they objectively help you. It's definitely not about "needing" a counterpick; you always need one since you lost a game. It's only rational to want to be able to pick that which is most in your favor. Like, I'm pretty sure it's not hard to find wide support for a statement like "Skyworld should be banned". However, if you mained Meta Knight and were going to be routinely going to tournaments at which Skyworld was legal, wouldn't you learn it just for the sake of having an amazingly powerful counterpick? If I were at a tournament at which Hanenbow was legal, I can't deny I'd feel quite the urge to decide Wario is my new secondary and then run the clock (Hanenbow is the best stage! Meta Knight loses 90-10 to Wario there!).

I think Thiocyanide's analysis of Rainbow Cruise and Norfair's effects isn't quite complete either. Like, from the perspective of Mr. Game & Watch looking to counterpick a stage against Meta Knight, the two are really different. Rainbow Cruise offers me very little help if any at all; I would be terrified to pick it. Norfair, on the other hand, is amazing. Perhaps you consider it "planking", but my basic strategy there against Meta Knight is to simply avoid fighting horizontally at all. If he is approaching me, I position so it is always from either above or below. If I am approaching him, it is always from below with perhaps an occasional key from above. The stage allows me to adopt a strategy in which Shuttle Loop (Meta Knight's most dangerous move in this matchup) isn't really a concern. Given how on Final Destination (the worst stage in this matchup in my opinion, and that includes Luigi's Mansion) basically lets the entire match be defined by my inability to get past Shuttle Loop, that's a big difference in winning ability provided by the stage.

Also, both Norfair and Rainbow Cruise doing the same things for some characters is useful regardless since players have stage bans. If my opponent mains the Ice Climbers, I'm definitely going to be wanting to pick whichever one he doesn't ban (unless the rules give me a stage like Big Blue that is even more anti-Ice Climbers, of course). It's actually a general rule that you need two good counterpicks in every matchup for most of the tournament and three if you make it to the finals; stages that are redundantly useful are definitely desirable.

 

[Prawn]

I'm absurdly biased because I'm starting to main ICs, but I hate the fact that Rainbow Cruise is legal. I guess I can understand norfair though, it does make for some awesome matches.

 

[Kamikaze*]

I'm absurdly biased because I'm starting to main ICs, but I hate the fact that Rainbow Cruise is legal. I guess I can understand norfair though, it does make for some stupid matches.

I believe that would be a better term. Norfair is like plankville. Also, aerial chars **** way too hard.

 

[Prawn]

I believe that would be a better term. Norfair is like plankville. Also, aerial chars **** way too hard.

True, but I've seen some good matches there, of course a lot of metaknights have it on backup to rainbow cruise.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have a quick question. Why is Rainbow Cruise allowed? I know some states do ban it, but it seems like a stage that would be banned automatically because of the stage scroll.

Ban RC. Put short, MK can virtually always win the counterpick because you can only ban RC or Norfair (and then there's still Luigi's Mansion) and both are brutally biased towards MK (RC because MK will outmaneuver every character in the game, Norfair because of planking).

 

[bobson]

More ledges != better planking. I don't know why people think this. Norfair actually gimps planking due to the way the platforms are lined up; you can fire projectiles at the planker while still remaining safe, and the lava eventually forces him to move even if you for some reason can't hit him.

 

[Linkshot]

Meta Knight does not out-maneuver Jiggs and Pit; Pit actually gives him a hard match there.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's not hard to have a really good fight on Rainbow Cruise. At all. At least try it before vowing never to touch it.

Correction:

"It's not hard to have a really good fight on Rainbow Cruise in Melee."

 

[Kitamerby]

If I were at a tournament at which Hanenbow was legal, I can't deny I'd feel quite the urge to decide Wario is my new secondary and then run the clock (Hanenbow is the best stage! Meta Knight loses 90-10 to Wario there!).

Now you have the opposite problem.

Suddenly Wario has a stage(s) in which he's untouchable. Now you're fscked up trying to find ways to avoid that.

 

[fkacyan]

More ledges != better planking. I don't know why people think this. Norfair actually gimps planking due to the way the platforms are lined up; you can fire projectiles at the planker while still remaining safe, and the lava eventually forces him to move even if you for some reason can't hit him.

I think this because I've played teh-spammerer and Orion (Not sir Orion, just Orion).

Maybe you missed the part of planking where you don't ever lose invincibility.

 

[bobson]

Maybe you missed the part of planking where you don't ever lose invincibility.

Oh, planking makes you permanently invincible now?

1000.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh, planking makes you permanently invincible now?

1000.

That's the idea behind planking. Most characters cannot plank because they either:

a) Cannot maintain invincibility (This is most but see B and C)
b) Do not have disjointed hitboxes, or
c) Do not have highest-priority attacks.

ZSS is the only character who fulfills A, as far as I know, though I could be wrong. Characters like Meta Knight and Marth have disjointed hitboxes that punish you for being near the edge and/or approaching them. Characters like Jigglypuff (Though this is very matchup specific, of course) can pound to the egde and outprioritize almost any given attack.

So, for all intents and purposes, the planker is 'invincible' on and around the edge.

You've obviously never seen anybody properly plank, so you really shouldn't be talking much about it.

 

[bobson]

So, for all intents and purposes, the planker is 'invincible' on and around the edge.

Oh, right, sorry. I took "you don't ever lose invincibility" to mean "you don't ever lose invincibility," not "it becomes difficult for the opponent to hit you."
Silly me.
Now it's your turn to explain how any of this makes Norfair a significantly better stage for planking than the rest of the stages despite my points to the contrary. Here's a tip: you can't outprioritize lava.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh, right, sorry. I took "you don't ever lose invincibility" to mean "you don't ever lose invincibility," not "it becomes difficult for the opponent to hit you."
Silly me.
Now it's your turn to explain how any of this makes Norfair a significantly better stage for planking than the rest of the stages despite my points to the contrary. Here's a tip: you can't outprioritize lava.

The ledges are close enough that you never have to become hittable while moving from platform to platform. Lava generally only helps the planker.

 

[bobson]

The ledges are close enough that you never have to become hittable while moving from platform to platform. Lava generally only helps the planker.

Yes you do. Have you played on this stage?
And, given that you for some reason think the extra ledges grant permanent invincibility, would not the lava removing them HURT the planker?

 

[fkacyan]

Yes you do. Have you played on this stage?

Clearly, more than you have, and with better people.

 

[bobson]

Clearly, more than you have, and with better people.

Well, yes, I must say I have less experience than you do playing against the Magical Brawl Fairies, able to modify the game data as they play to make themselves invincible.
Unless this is just another case of me misinterpreting "permanent invincibility" as "permanent invincibility" when you actually mean, say, "you will not be hit if nothing attacks you."

On the off-chance that there IS a way to make planking literally invincible forever, we have precedence of banning things like that as stalling tactics rather than banning any stage they can be used on.

 

[ColinJF]

There are at least a few ledge camping patterns that allow you to "maintain invincibility" in the sense that, if the opponent sits back and does nothing, you will continually be in invincibility frames. But since the opponent can just take the ledge to stop these, it is not actually permanent invincibility. It does allow you to avoid the lava though. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the common ledge camping patterns in Brawl don't even allow you to "maintain invincibility" in the aforementioned sense.

The ledges on Norfair are actually less protected than on some other stages on account of the stage layout. As bobson says, if ledge camping is broken on Norfair it should be broken everywhere. And if you actually think it's broken everywhere then it isn't a justification for banning Norfair; the actual ledge camping should be banned instead.

 

[bobson]

There are at least a few ledge camping patterns that allow you to "maintain invincibility" in the sense that, if the opponent sits back and does nothing, you will continually be in invincibility frames. But since the opponent can just take the ledge to stop these, it is not actually permanent invincibility. It does allow you to avoid the lava though.

What patterns are these? The only one I know of is ZSS' ledgedrop to the down-B flippy hoppy thing back on to the ledge (which works everywhere there's a ledge, as far as I know).

 

[ColinJF]

I was initially under the impression that Marth had some gimmick with dolphin slash, but some analysis shows that he isn't fully invincible during that. So there might be only one such pattern.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm really dubious of the claim that there is any fully invincible ledge regrab pattern. Here are some facts.

You can't drop from the ledge until 25 frames after grabbing it. You are invincibile for 47 frames after grabbing the ledge so you have a 22 frame window to either get back onto the ledge or do a move with invincibility to extend it. The earliest I can manage to start a Marth Dolphin Slash that will regrab is frame 23 which leaves a frame of vulnerability and, even worse, it doesn't regrab until frame 8 of the Dolphin Slash which leaves two more vulnerable frames. Using a double jump in the middle of that does not seem to help and in fact seems to make it slower. If anyone can find a frame timing that actually works, I'd be interested.

I'm not seeing any timing with Zero Suit Samus's down special that comes even close to regrabbing early enough.

Plaking is overrated anyway since it's high risk low reward (if you are "winning" with it you score a series of weak hits; if you are "losing" with it you get stagespiked and killed). And yeah, it's worse on Norfair since you can just approach the ledges from all sorts of different directions; I don't know where the idea it's better on Norfair came from.

Speaking of Norfair, it does provide a good test of any theory of full invincibility on the ledge. Simply ledgestall inside the huge walls of lava. This lasts a long time and will require several regrabs, and if you can do it, you obviously are fully invincible. Of course, if you are vulnerable for even a single frame, the lava will hit you.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm really dubious of the claim that there is any fully invincible ledge regrab pattern. Here are some facts.

You can't drop from the ledge until 25 frames after grabbing it. You are invincibile for 47 frames after grabbing the ledge so you have a 22 frame window to either get back onto the ledge or do a move with invincibility to extend it. The earliest I can manage to start a Marth Dolphin Slash that will regrab is frame 23 which leaves a frame of vulnerability and, even worse, it doesn't regrab until frame 8 of the Dolphin Slash which leaves two more vulnerable frames. Using a double jump in the middle of that does not seem to help and in fact seems to make it slower. If anyone can find a frame timing that actually works, I'd be interested.

I'm not seeing any timing with Zero Suit Samus's down special that comes even close to regrabbing early enough.

Plaking is overrated anyway since it's high risk low reward (if you are "winning" with it you score a series of weak hits; if you are "losing" with it you get stagespiked and killed). And yeah, it's worse on Norfair since you can just approach the ledges from all sorts of different directions; I don't know where the idea it's better on Norfair came from.

Speaking of Norfair, it does provide a good test of any theory of full invincibility on the ledge. Simply ledgestall inside the huge walls of lava. This lasts a long time and will require several regrabs, and if you can do it, you obviously are fully invincible. Of course, if you are vulnerable for even a single frame, the lava will hit you.

Seeing as I didn't mean literally invincible, which I'm pretty sure I clarified in a previous post which Bobson selectively ignored, this entire chain is pretty pointless.

The idea behind planking, once again, is that you are "invincible" in terms of being hit; that is to say, you are impossible or very hard to punish.

Banning planking against a projectile character camping you is essentially saying you should be either getting hit in the approach (Why would you approach with a % advantage, by the way?) or play a character with projectiles.

The difference between Norfair and other stages is that if you actually manage to get a planker off of one ledge, he has several more to flee to. That one hit that might stagespike him on FD just hits him over to another ledge, and if you didn't gain advantage and force his approach with that hit, that's another few minutes trying to find that opening to hit him again.

I dunno, maybe the people I play with competitively will do anything to win and the people you guys play with don't; at least where I am, we're banning stages that make a preventable and legal technique unpreventable.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The people I play with play to win. I employ planking as Mr. Game & Watch, and I counterpick Norfair a lot. When I plank on most stages, either a very good character specific counter (like Olimar fsmash) gets pulled out on me or they just jump out and take the ledge and stagespike me in the process. Even if they fail a few times, in the long run, it's just way too dangerous for me to plank against anyone good (against weaker players it's really good though). I'm sure I'm "really hard" to hit, but a success rate of 10-15% is enough to defeat my tactic so that's pretty bad for me. On Norfair, I jump around ledge to ledge a lot, but I don't really actively ledgestall since they always have ledges they can join me on. In general, the main deal with Norfair is that you can approach from below at almost any time, and approaching from below is very powerful in a lot of matchups. Approaching from below also destroys planking; what ledgestalling tactic is even close to safe if the opponent is coming up from under the ledge?

I really don't see these more liberal stages falling apart at all with playing to win. The biggest problem I see on a lot of them is that some players simply refuse to change their tactics and lose to some abusable gimmick and blame the stage. It's like they "play to win on Smashville" even if they aren't on Smashville. There are also the corner cases of people trying to abuse a stage they believe is unfairly good for them and then getting really mad when they fail; those are the best. Of course, I see the better players, when brought to such stages, change their tactics, sometimes radically, and still come out on top and pressing their advantages on good stages for them in a more optimal way, but I don't see their play evidencing things as actually broken very often.

 

[bobson]

I'm not seeing any timing with Zero Suit Samus's down special that comes even close to regrabbing early enough.

Her down-B has invincibility frames. The timing is tight, but I've ledgedropped and then regrabbed while constantly covered in lava at least once.

Seeing as I didn't mean literally invincible, which I'm pretty sure I clarified in a previous post which Bobson selectively ignored, this entire chain is pretty pointless.

The exchange:

>Norfair gimps planking by making it easier to approach and forcing it to stop when the lava comes.
>No, planking will make you invincible.
>No it won't.
>I didn't mean actually invincible, just hard to hit.
>Okay, great. How does this counter my points?
>Because Norfair makes planking invincible. Also, most plankers are Fire-type, so the lava will actually help them. (estimated reasoning)
>IT DOESN'T MAKE PLANKING INVINCIBLE, YOU NINCOMPOOP
>I have more experience than you.
>Yeah? Yo' momma so fat, she has to turn around at "No vehicles over 3000kg" signs. And she drives a Geo!

I'm going to tune out and let Ampharos handle it from here because he tends to say what I want to say except stated in an intelligent, reasonable manner that's capable of actually accomplishing something rather than as thinly-veiled flamebait.

 

[vato_break]

ugh norfair is dumb >___<

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I damand every tourney that ban PS2 to unban it, or at least the next list move to Counter/Ban since a lot of tourney's I know ban it but me. ☆

 

[GwJ]

Why not ban it?

 

[Lord Viper]

Why not ban it?

☆ The stage hazards doesn't really mess with the gameplay, (maybe except for the Electric field), and there is no stage hazards that can really kill you, also the stage doesn't create a very good unbalance when picking characters. ☆