Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[archer.]

It means you are instantly bad.

You gonna be in Charlotte anytime soon? I want to play this match-up to get a better feel for it.

Spoiler

Yata-Garasu is gay.

 

[Neon!]

After all four active members of the Wolf panel voted DK in the easier half of Wolf's +1 MUs, I really have to disagree that 0 is a more realistic ratio than +1 Wolf. How does Wolf stack up to DK's current 0s, and his current -1s?

Wolf is definitely easier than DK's other -1's such as toon link but that in itself isnt a reason. Wolfs advantage in approaching options is evened out by dk's superior range and killing power/weight in my opinion.

I think this is more optimistic than realistic.

Without the infinite its +1 dk (Ness). Your fair can compete with our bair but we have the better ground game. We kill much faster and live longer and have good options for edgeguarding with cargo-dthrow offstage and stalling the ledge with up-b/attacking with bair. WITH the infinite I believe its +3 for us. Every other dk on the panel agreed with this including esam who uses DK occasionally and has tons of ness experience from playing Shaky.

Theres no way sonic is even with DK. even will knows that sonic beats his character. its just as a whole too easy for me to hit you and too hard for you to hit me. the only reason its even close is because dk doesnt die in that matchup until 180 and can kill sonic anywhere from 60-100. But even that isnt enough to keep sonic from beating him outright.

Yes sonic racks damage faster than dk, most every character does. We do have options for punishing your fast movement though, our down-b controls a large amount of space on the ground and stops many of your spin attack approaches, our bair and tilts are mostly useful when we have stage control and can combo into each other (bair) or into down-b (dtilt) The main reason I thinks its even is what you stated, we will be living to 160 or more every stock while we can kill you at 90 consistently. Even though you have the advanatge in approaching you have to make far more reads than we do to end up in the same killing range.

Also, DK vs Kirby is 0. Apart from the aforementioned qualities (kirby racks up damage easily, DK kills earlier), Kirby also has a better recovery and edgeguarding game, what with his slow fall, 5 jumps, and sideB to stall for a while longer. If DK gets poked by a single dair hit he's dead. DK can't use aerials while recovering either unless he wants to risk dying, his only salvation is upB and airdodges the vast majority of the time while Kirby can mix up a buttload of different options to make it really hard for DK to edgeguard. In terms of CPs, as long as Kirby bans stages with short ceilings, he shouldn't be too worried about dying early. To me it really feels like an even MU, and I haven't really seen anything yet that can change my stance.

I knew you would bring up dair which is why I posted our options against it in my last post. Assuming the dk di's correctly we dont always have to recover low, we can still recover high with our high priority up-b and far reaching fair and bair. Smart use of our mid-air jump and stalling with side-b and up-b give us a good chance of recovering safely. This small advantage offstage isnt enough to save you from our superior on stage game, we win outright in the air and ground, you will probably rack up the first 50% or so first but after we're out of grab setup range our superior weight and killing power shines. As fars as CP's go we have YI, Halberd and BF (platforms help with recovery/up-b invincibility on stage)

v

It's our hardest +2, but not +1.

I will order Pit's matchups. I'm sorry I haven't been much active on this, I been trying to relax over my break.

I could definitly see this as +2 if there was no ledge grab limit. Pit wins offstage in terms of edgeuarding and stalling but goes about even with us on stage. Well spaced bairs and tilts work well here as in most matchups, pits aerial game isnt that scary for us when we get past the arrows and his killing potential is far lower than ours. The only pits I've played irl are maharba and esca, I beat maharba 2-1 in pools but lost to esca 1-2 in a money match mostly because his edge stalling frustrated me to the point where I didnt even want to play the game (first time that had ever happened to me) This can be kept in check though with patience and doesnt give pit a solid advantage. Pit seems much easier than our other -2's such as falco and ZSS and seems closer to the difficulty of toon link.

 

[Psychoace]

Still think we have a harder time vs ike than pokemon trainer..

 

[da K.I.D.]

Any time dk uses down b is an automatic 20% and a land camp set up for sonic, its very easy to jump over it, spindash it and hit dk for mad damage and put him in a dangerous position. not to mention the fact that Max charged spindash can cover the entire range of the move and hit him in between hand slaps.

 

[Ussi]

I just realized PT has only 1 even MU o_O (Sonic) Kinda surprised PT has a really good low tier MU spread actually

 

[da K.I.D.]

The hell? Sonic beats PT. What is this sorcery?

 

[Shaya]

Squirtle squirt.

 

[Kinzer]

Yes sonic racks damage faster than dk, most every character does. We do have options for punishing your fast movement though, our down-b controls a large amount of space on the ground and stops many of your spin attack approaches, our bair and tilts are mostly useful when we have stage control and can combo into each other (bair) or into down-b (dtilt) The main reason I thinks its even is what you stated, we will be living to 160 or more every stock while we can kill you at 90 consistently. Even though you have the advanatge in approaching you have to make far more reads than we do to end up in the same killing range.

Have you played Espy?

The hell? Sonic beats PT. What is this sorcery?

This MU is hardly played to begin with, this isn't worth the hassle otherwise. I would be inclined to agree but again there is no evidence.

 

[Tesh]

Sonic definitely beats PT. Ivysaur is child's play. Charizard is like a worse version of DK and Squirtle goes even with Sonic at best (if we don't camp his *** for fatigue, then he will never NEVER kill sonic).

Neon I chuckled a little at "kill you at 90 consistently". I think you just made that up. Please show a tournament match or MM where DK kills Sonic at 90 or lower more than once. I've never seen it.

 

[Dre89]

PMC- Squirtle is more likely to ko Mario with fair or dthrow than usmash. He can probably gimp Mario too.

And no good PT will ever use their Zard's flamethrower close enough to Mario so that he could di and punish him. They're more likely to short hop it and space it as an approach, rather try catch Mario mid stream and hold it to rack damage.

 

[Krystedez]

could definitly see this as +2 if there was no ledge grab limit. Pit wins offstage in terms of edgeuarding and stalling but goes about even with us on stage. Well spaced bairs and tilts work well here as in most matchups, pits aerial game isnt that scary for us when we get past the arrows and his killing potential is far lower than ours. The only pits I've played irl are maharba and esca, I beat maharba 2-1 in pools but lost to esca 1-2 in a money match mostly because his edge stalling frustrated me to the point where I didnt even want to play the game (first time that had ever happened to me) This can be kept in check though with patience and doesnt give pit a solid advantage. Pit seems much easier than our other -2's such as falco and ZSS and seems closer to the difficulty of toon link.

LGL - With or without, with 50 LGs Pit can still legitimately stall out potentially the last 3 minutes of a game with scrooging. QUIT using that as an argument.

Onstage - No, Pit's grounded moves have decent range and good enough speed to negate a lot of the boxing attempts DK might potentially rely on. Tilts are very useful but if you whiff you're looking at a good punish after that. Too much lag on tilts

Air - Your bairs can be spaced effectively but are not scary, they just hit hard percent wise and lead into eachother, on whiff you're effectively leaving yourself in a worse position. Dealing with DK's bairs is like dealing with an easier Kirby's bair from my experience.

Other - We also have a solid chaingrab that goes from 6-9 regrabs into arrow at the end or finisher if on a long enough stretch. Getting you off stage is quite easy. Keeping you off stage is even easier. You're also one of the if not THE most predictable characters to edgeguard with mirror shield.

I've played Ook (2-0). I don't recall Ripple taking out DK on me ever, since he uses Sheik. Other DK's I've fought have been free but I don't recall their names.

 

[Ripple]

Neon's crazy. DK can't kill and has terrible everything.

/drunk, yet entirely serious, rip <3

 

[PMC66]

Why does Wolf beat Toon Link? Seems like a very even match-up to me.

well they perform exactly the same as eachother and have very close fights only Tink hates Wolf B-air and has problems killing him if wolf avoids up smash and U-air.

very slight advantage to Wolf from my personal experience Tink is probably Wolf's hardest +1 along with Snake though i'm the only one who thinks wolf wins against Snake.

 

[Kewkky]

So Neon, you're saying that since anyone can DI, spikes never happen? Our dair never spikes a DK? No use for it? Sorry to tell you this, but it does work and it sucks for you when you get poked by dair offstage. DI or not, there are times you get knocked away in awkward directions where you can't DI as high as you can or where you lost your second jump and you die from one of our dairs. You can't deny it by saying "oh but we DI goood and high all the time so GG dair". Also, I said it's 'also' part of the reason why we're even, because you are worse than Kirby offstage, and DK offstage vs Kirby is bad while Kirby offstage vs DK isn't bad at all. You might think you can stall with sideB and that upB is your saving grace, but you're forced to stop once you're starting to come around stage-level and risk getting gimped. Kirby however, can recover high even if he gets knocked away at an awkward angle because of his multiple jumps and slow fall speed, properly guessing how Kirby will recover all the time should be a challenge for edgeguarders... Not to mention the risks of getting gimped or kirbicided for going offstage without being careful.

Also, I always ban halberd against my DK opponents. I think that's Kirby's worst stage vs DK since the ceiling's so low. BF is also one of Kirby's best stages because we can use the platforms for recovery and to enhance our juggling game. YI is okay for us, the platform in the middle helps us pull a couple gimmicks off since it tilts and stuff, and the shy guys refresh our kill moves so we don't have to worry about you living for TOO long. Also, taking your power isn't as hard as other characters because most of your attacks are jointed to your hurtbox, and that's some good killpower we earn, definitely worth it because we can't inhale-footstool you and you shouldn't be going offstage to edgeguard Kirby, thus making kirbicides a rare punish. It's not enough to say we're as dangerous as you are when we're at high %s, but it also means we now have a GREAT tool to end your stock before your % goes too high.


To me, it's even, mang. Play a good Kirby or two and you'll see what I'm saying. Gimps still happen, there's guaranteed strings after 50% that work till high %s, some of your best CPs are some of our best as well so it's not really a CP if you give us an advantage too... What else can be said?

 

[Neon!]

Neon's crazy. DK can't kill and has terrible everything.

/drunk, yet entirely serious, rip <3

^ One of the reasons DK's matchup spread is so bad this time, at one point in the discussion I was this pessimistic as well.

 

[Luigi player]

DK really sucks at killing tho :/ unless the opponent plays unsafe, you get a hard read or he sucks/doesn't know the MU, etc.

Utilt is probably his best killmove and if it isnt "tippered" then it will probably KO rather late since its such a good move it'll be staled at least a bit. Against light chars that's at around 150 %...

 

[Steam]

DK sucks at killing? fuuuuuu

Lucario-DK +1 Lucario

 

[da K.I.D.]

Dk is very good at killing since d smash is such an effective punish and punch has super armor. his kill moves also outrange most things.

 

[Alphicans]

People extending that GaW mindset to DK now?? Jesus.

 

[Ripple]

You guys don't understand how bad dk really is

 

[da K.I.D.]

I understand EXACTLY how bad DK is. Dr. G was the only training partner i had that was on my level of skill for like a year. I know DK pretty much inside and out.

But that doesnt change the fact that he has some solid redeeming qualities.

 

[hichez50]

DK sucks at killing? fuuuuuu

Lucario-DK +1 Lucario

Steam are you kidding me? The match up is even. DK can get juggled, but he can kill us so early. He has dsmash which is really good. Then if his Bair is fresh he can kill use pretty early also. Also his Bair walls the **** out of us. Then DK punch has super armor(enough said). That super armor can make playing DK at high percents impossible.

 

[Steam]

Steam are you kidding me? The match up is even. DK can get juggled, but he can kill us so early. He has dsmash which is really good. Then if his Bair is fresh he can kill use pretty early also. Also his Bair walls the **** out of us. Then DK punch has super armor(enough said). That super armor can make playing DK at high percents impossible.

you should read my short post again. then read the first line of it only, then read the post before mine. then read my post a third time.

 

[Kewkky]

you should read my short post again. then read the first line of it only, then read the post before mine. then read my post a third time.

I was thinking the same thing. Tsk tsk tsk, people who can't read sarcasm over the internet.

 

[Deleted member]

I lost at "DK sucks at killing".

You're kidding, right?

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm the only one who thinks wolf wins against Snake.

Because your only source of practice is Wi-Fi...I still can't understand how you think 's 42 frame Laser is better then 's Nades and that you think camps better then .

 

[Flayl]

I just noticed Yoshi VS Snake is only -1.

What.

 

[PMC66]

Because your only source of practice is Wi-Fi...

no it's not I play locally at least once a week.

and Wolf's 42 frame laser is deadly against snake if you know how to use it especially if your going to get him above you at mid percents and get him near stage off stage the top hit box is a semi spike so it's an even better option than back air in that situation the top hit box of blaster can also pierce Wario's D-air because the priority is huge.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel that the Snake match up becomes a lot easier when you learn to DI the F-tilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeWxGB5wNAE&t=28s

He does a hell of a lot less damage every time he punishes you.

 

[PMC66]

^ seems snake is gettting worse and worse these days hmmm

 

[SaveMeJebus]

^ seems snake is gettting worse and worse these days hmmm

Does it?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13876278&postcount=1414

 

[zmx]

It's hard to take what the MU chart says seriously anymore tbh. People never seem to agree on ANY MU. Ever. Even top players will disagree and it seems the MU chart is based on how good your character Lobyists are.

We can't even agree on if DK sucks at killing or not. Personally I think he's average when it comes to killing. His most devastating moves tend to be hard to land obviously but he still has punch (super armor), down smash and at higher percents utilt,ftilt. And bair/uair if they are fresh but again this is at relatively high percents. Oh and poorly DIed/non teched, stage spikes and back throws I guess.

I mean, I get the meta game is constantly evolving making it difficult to set any MU in stone but at the same time ask 10 self proclaimed "experts" on any given MU and they will all tell you conflicting, contradictory things.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How does this make Snake worse when it had zero effect on the outcome of the match-up in that example? If anything, it confirmes that SDI doesn't negate ftilt's power all that much - contrary to what certain people like to claim.

 

[zmx]

How does this make Snake worse when it had zero effect on the outcome of the match-up in that example? If anything, it confirmes that SDI doesn't negate ftilt's power all that much - contrary to what certain people like to claim.

First off that was a jab to ftilt. Not just an ftilt. Secondly, I disagree as I think cutting a move's power in roughly half (if only the first hit connects) IS negating it's power by a considerable amount. Over time this will mean a lot less damage especially if they like to use it a lot.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How does this make Snake worse when it had zero effect on the outcome of the match-up in that example? If anything, it confirmes that SDI doesn't negate ftilt's power all that much - contrary to what certain people like to claim.

It went from doing 25% to doing only 13%. It doesn't matter if he ended up losing the match. You wouldn't stop trying to struggle from an infinite just because you're down a stock would you?

 

[Seagull Joe]

no it's not I play locally at least once a week.

and Wolf's 42 frame laser is deadly against snake if you know how to use it especially if your going to get him above you at mid percents and get him near stage off stage the top hit box is a semi spike so it's an even better option than back air in that situation the top hit box of blaster can also pierce Wario's D-air because the priority is huge.

I'd rather Gheb respond to this because this is so situational and he has a way with words for explaining fallacies better then myself.

 

[PMC66]

I'd rather Gheb respond to this because this is so situational and he has a way with words for explaining fallacies better then myself.

I manage it even against Game and watch it doensn't always work and tbh anyone with a D-air like Game and watch or Tink i wouldn't use this on that often but with the right positioning it works this may sound like complete madness but it's effective if you know how to make use of it.

 

[zmx]

no it's not I play locally at least once a week.

and Wolf's 42 frame laser is deadly against snake if you know how to use it especially if your going to get him above you at mid percents and get him near stage off stage the top hit box is a semi spike so it's an even better option than back air in that situation the top hit box of blaster can also pierce Wario's D-air because the priority is huge.

1. No good snake will go above you often. They'll rarely go in the air at all unless it's a read.

2. That semi spike will never work because a Snake that knows what he's doing will ALWAYS be recovering high, not low.

3. Bringing in Wario was completely irrelevant. You were asked to justify a particular statement, what does Wario have to do with it?

Edit:

If you play online, I'd love to play your wolf. I'm a snake main btw.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I manage it even against Game and watch it doens't when i try it but with the right positioning it works this may sound like complete madness but it's effective if you know how to make use of it.

Just because a move has transcendent priority doesn't mean it is going to work efficiently enough to combat every scenario. 's hilt is transcendent, but the chance of using it to beat something is much more limited then you make it sound. Otherwise s would definitely be throwing it out more.

s also tend to recover high as to not put themselves in positions to get spiked or semi-spiked by .

 

[Delta-cod]

I just noticed Yoshi VS Snake is only -1.

What.

Mobility, juggles, Yoshi is heavy.

If Snake weren't so fat and he didn't have stupid hitboxes we needed to work around it'd be even better.