Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[zmx]

Mobility, juggles, Yoshi is heavy.

If Snake weren't so fat and he didn't have stupid hitboxes we needed to work around it'd be even better.

Agreed. I was shocked while playing decent Yoshis at how well he seems to do against Snake.

Who would you say outcamps the other?

 

[PMC66]

Just because a move has transcendent priority doesn't mean it is going to work efficiently enough to combat every scenario. 's hilt is transcendent, but the chance of using it to beat something is much more limited then you make it sound. Otherwise s would definitely be throwing it out more.

s also tend to recover high as to not put themselves in positions to get spiked or semi-spiked by .

yeah I know they recover high i suggested it for certain situations not all but the knockback of it is surprisingly big, just because it's slow doesn't mean it's useless. And if snake recovers high and you can predict where he will land because well he has to land he can't fly then you should consider the top hit box of blaster as an alternative to B-air A it keeps B-air fresher so theres more killing power and B he's sent at a worse angle as opposed to B-air which hits up and away Blaster is down and away.

 

[Seagull Joe]

s utilize b-reversals to make their landings harder to intercept. s also land with nades or Bair, so I'd be eating a nade or a Bair. Sweet.

 

[zmx]

yeah I know they recover high i suggested it for certain situations not all but the knockback of it is surprisingly big, just because it's slow doesn't mean it's useless. And if snake recovers high and you can predict where he will land because well he has to land he can't fly then you should consider the top hit box of blaster as an alternative to B-air A it keeps B-air fresher so theres more killing power and B he's sent at a worse angle as opposed to B-air which hits up and away Blaster is down and away.

Am I misreading this or did you just say Yoshi's back air kills?

 

[BSP]

Blaster

I think he's talking about

 

[Seagull Joe]

Am I misreading this or did you just say Yoshi's back air kills?

He's talking about 's Bair.

 

[zmx]

s utilize b-reversals to make their landings harder to intercept. s also land with nades or Bair, so I'd be eating a nade or a Bair. Sweet.

On top of all of that Snake could be hiding a jump/Up B. Spacing your landing so you grab the ledge when they're covering stage well isn't a bad idea either.

Snake is no doubt awful in the air but he does have a lot of mixups to help him land safely.

 

[PMC66]

Am I misreading this or did you just say Yoshi's back air kills?

i'm talking about wolf lol.

and @seagull fair point but if we're underneath snake and we hit with the tip we don't get hit by nade it can also punish snake whilst he's in cypher and he's too low to grab release. Though I use blaster as an option on the ground sounds insane but I like taking risks at low percents so sue me.

OK i think this thread should move onto something else right now it's educational that wolf blaster has transcendant priority how many frames it is and the knockback it does and how it's a useful surprise attack but it's 'inefficient' So i'm going to just ask a question i need answering.

Snake VS Ice Climbers 0 wtf I confess i only have very basic grasp of this MU but how do Ice climbers get a grab on a character that can hold a nade the whole time and not be chain throwed to death, as well as mortar helping to some degree against being grabbed and also snake has way more range than Ice climbers as well as more basic move killing power outside of throws.

 

[zmx]

Lol I knew I was missing something.

Edit:

So what do you say PMC66? Want to play me on Wifi?

 

[Delta-cod]

Agreed. I was shocked while playing decent Yoshis at how well he seems to do against Snake.

Who would you say outcamps the other?

It really depends. Snake wins a bit in general, but Yoshi can really break his rhythm by landing an egg toss when a nade is pulled as it blows up the grenade. After that, Snake tends to have trouble restarting his camp game. Luckily, Snake's DACUS allows him to close space and punish us/force us to stop camping since it's so fast.

 

[PMC66]

Lol I knew I was missing something.

Edit:

So what do you say PMC66? Want to play me on Wifi?

sure maybe sometime i play wifi for fun I don't use my main on it that often i get crippled pretty bad in lag but ok sure =)

oh and not right now i'm not in the mood. Who do you main?

 

[zmx]

You must have missed my post. I essentially said what the others are telling you about snake a page back. I'm a snake main though I use almost everyone to some degree.

 

[PMC66]

^ ok i thought you were joking but i didn't want to be rude if your serious.

and lol snakes harder to fight on wifi.

and i am honest when i say this the stuff i mentioned about blaster i've managed to perform in real life matches not all of them against snake either, i'm not 100% wifi i have a pretty good grasp of what works offline I go round to my friend's house every week and i get to play locally, i'm not a wifi brawler if i was i wouldn't be a mario main .

 

[zmx]

You thought I was joking because I said Snake's that know what they're doing tend to recover high?

:O

And which characters are more hard to fight on wifi is debatable.

When you want to play go here: http://xat.com/chat/room/158124163/

Anyways back on topic:

WHY DON'T PEOPLE AGREE ON ANY MU???

 

[Seagull Joe]

i'm talking about wolf lol.

and @seagull fair point but if we're underneath snake and we hit with the tip we don't get hit by nade it can also punish snake whilst he's in cypher and he's too low to grab release. Though I use blaster as an option on the ground sounds insane but I like taking risks at low percents so sue me.

OK i think this thread should move onto something else right now it's educational that wolf blaster has transcendant priority how many frames it is and the knockback it does and how it's a useful surprise attack but it's 'inefficient' So i'm going to just ask a question i need answering.

Snake VS Ice Climbers 0 wtf I confess i only have very basic grasp of this MU but how do Ice climbers get a grab on a character that can hold a nade the whole time and not be chain throwed to death, as well as mortar helping to some degree against being grabbed and also snake has way more range than Ice climbers as well as more basic move killing power outside of throws.

You must play really bad s if they're losing out to 's laser hilt.

 

[Steam]

lucario has transcendent everything, so top tier obv.

 

[da K.I.D.]

WHY DON'T PEOPLE AGREE ON ANY MU???

Bias and different levels/amounts of experience.

 

[PMC66]

Lol i enjoy how everyone is finding this funny, well i fought 1st in east coast canada (Alberta) but that was sadly on wifi if UK smash scene didn't suck i'd go play Calzorz and blaster hilt him show you how it can be useful ;D.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dude, Calzorz would completely obliterate you XD

 

[PMC66]

how would you know you've never seen me play or played me honestly i dunno I can't tell how good people are purely from brawl vids. i've only really fought one person from the Tip tree scene, from what he told me UK has better players than Calzorz (i'm prolly not best in UK tbh i'm too casual) so i'd love to see the type of region UK would be if those players did go O.o

 

[zmx]

how would you know you've never seen me play or played me honestly i dunno I can't tell how good people are purely from brawl vids. i've only really fought one person from the Tip tree scene, from what he told me UK has better players than Calzorz (i'm prolly not best in UK tbh i'm too casual) so i'd love to see the type of region UK would be if those players did go O.o

Look we're not trying to be rude or trying to offend you.

It's just from the stuff you think will work, no doubt from playing friends (like blaster on snake when he wouldn't be that low) it's sort of obvious you probably haven't played any high level players, or even mid level for that matter. I doubt you understand what a proper b-reversal is either.

And logic follows that if you haven't ever played any even semi-competent competition it is impossible for you to be a top level player yourself.

When I used to just play with local friends I thought I was pretty good too. Then I played actual good players on wifi/tourny and realized how bad I really was.

Calzorz is one of the best snakes in Europe so you are making a MASSIVE claim by saying you could go toe to toe with him when in reality you'd probably get 3-stocked.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol i enjoy how everyone is finding this funny, well i fought 1st in east coast canada (Alberta) but that was sadly on wifi if UK smash scene didn't suck i'd go play Calzorz and blaster hilt him show you how it can be useful ;D.

That awkward moment when Alberta is on the east coast of Canada. I'll assume that was a typo for west coast.

 

[Doc King]

Mobility, juggles, Yoshi is heavy.

If Snake weren't so fat and he didn't have stupid hitboxes we needed to work around it'd be even better.

Snake isn't fat.

lucario has transcendent everything, so top tier obv.

Nope.

Also cool thing I've noticed is how 's matchups are better than 's. Would this mean that could end up lowering as the metagame progresses? I haven't seen too much in tournaments (Then again a good way to counter my argument is saying how I don't watch much tourneys). He seems to be getting mastered with his air release and a lot of characters have combos on him. Also, matchups have weakened like and becoming solid disadvantages and becoming even.

I can see dropping down to high tier.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Snake isn't fat.


Nope.

Also cool thing I've noticed is how 's matchups are better than 's. Would this mean that could end up lowering as the metagame progresses? I haven't seen too much in tournaments (Then again a good way to counter my argument is saying how I don't watch much tourneys). He seems to be getting mastered with his air release and a lot of characters have combos on him. Also, matchups have weakened like and becoming solid disadvantages and becoming even.

I can see dropping down to high tier.

You're posting like me. I think I feel honored.

 

[Doc King]

You're posting like me. I think I feel honored.

I think it's kind of cool and fancy to post like that. It really does show interest in ur post.

 

[infiniteV115]

0
Also cool thing I've noticed is how 's matchups are better than 's. Would this mean that could end up lowering as the metagame progresses?

Not really. MU's have to be weighted for a tier list. Notice how he goes even with everyone in top tier except 2 -2's, one is banned and the other is Marth. DDD is only higher on this list because he beats the lower half of the cast harder than Wario does. But those MUs are way less important.

 

[Flayl]

In a self-weighted matchup chart - where having a better a matchup against MK counts more than having a better matchup than Ganondorf - Wario is 3 spots above Dedede.

That's a part of a project I mean to show after APEX.

 

[Doc King]

Not really. MU's have to be weighted for a tier list. Notice how he goes even with everyone in top tier except 2 -2's, one is banned and the other is Marth. DDD is only higher on this list because he beats the lower half of the cast harder than Wario does. But those MUs are way less important.

Isn't top tier, he's God Tier.

Also, you didn't mention how beats , , and slightly and solidly. I think you are right though being higher on the Matchup tier list mainly because of his middle tier and low tier extreme dominance. It was just a cool fact to mention.

 

[Steam]

it's okay guys, PMC beat trela on wifi so he's the best player on earth.

a weighted matchup chart would be interesting for lucario since a lot of his bad matchups in the high/top tiers are undersold.

 

[Shaya]

I was considering putting weighted match ups with something like MK mu is worth 1.5 while ganon is worth 0.5, but I was lazy.

 

[Steam]

you could do it by uses of character / total uses and multiply that ratio by the MU number and do that for all MUs to get a weighted MU average for each character since we have access to that kind of data. would take awhile though.

 

[Shaya]

I would do it by the tier list

 

[Steam]

I would do it by the tier list

just because a character is better doesn't mean you're more likely to encounter them in tourney... the matchups that matter most will be the ones you encounter the most.

 

[Browny]

dat logic bomb

 

[zmx]

In the upcoming months I see the Snake/Ics/Falco/Olimar MUs mattering most.

 

[hichez50]

You frogot about marth and DDD. They were shoved into a closet since MK ran rampant.

 

[Neon!]

Laughing at these comments that DK has bad killing options. DK's dmash is better than all of GW's smashes, it comes out faster than all of his (frame 11 for ground, frame 10 for above compared to GW's dsmash at frame 15) has far more range and no weak hitbox. Our Utilt can kill most light weights around 130 when fresh and comes out on frame 6.

Fully charged punch is what makes dk so scary though because of its range, super armor and flexibility since it can be used in the air, can be reversed and is safe on shield when spaced well. It comes out on frame 18 and has super armor from frames 17-20.

This combined with dk's fairly powerful bair (though it will probably be stale) and even more powerful uair (frame 6) and ability to gimp/kill with cargo dthrow offstage or stage spike gives him a wide variety of killing options.

 

[Shaya]

just because a character is better doesn't mean you're more likely to encounter them in tourney... the matchups that matter most will be the ones you encounter the most.

have fun with that.
Your +4 on ganondorf shouldn't be inflating your weighted match up score purely because people use ganondorf in tournament more so than than most of the bottom third of the cast.
Of course a counter argument can be made on that, and its somewhat a preference thing.

 

[Steam]

have fun with that.
Your +4 on ganondorf shouldn't be inflating your weighted match up score purely because people use ganondorf in tournament more so than than most of the bottom third of the cast.
Of course a counter argument can be made on that, and its somewhat a preference thing.

If everyone just used ganon it would be the only matchup that mattered :/

so if ganon sees more use his MU should matter more :/

 

[Ishiey]

Wolf is definitely easier than DK's other -1's such as toon link but that in itself isnt a reason. Wolfs advantage in approaching options is evened out by dk's superior range and killing power/weight in my opinion.

I agree that it's not the best reasoning, but honestly a lot of the time I don't see how else to resolve such things :/ Wolf doesn't need to approach, Wolf can camp with lasers and space bairs on DK's poor shield to whittle it down until it's in poke range. That being said, I agree that Wolf still has the advantage in approaching when it's necessary to do so. DK's superior range is... kiiinda true. Ftilt, possibly. Everything else goes even with bair/fair, and then you have to remember that your attacks don't have much of a disjoint so they'll lose to fair/uair/shine more often than not. Essentially, Wolf's tools against non-disjointed movesets evens out your slight range advantage. The superior killing power and weight I can agree with in the sense that Wolf will probably die at noticeably earlier %s than DK more often than not, which is pretty important.

There are some important things you are leaving out though. Wolf juggles DK very well, and if we shield a bair it's a free fair OoS which sets up for more juggling. Wolf also outspeeds DK in close range, and as previously mentioned does a number on his weak shield. Then there's ledge pressure, which is really not fun for DK to deal with at all. These things all combined outweigh your better relative longevity and ability to get more reward off of a hard read imo, which is why I think the MU is +1 Wolf.