Oh? Did I win? - An in-depth Matchup Analysis - Updated!

[Metatitan]

We should probably discuss one matchup at a time to keep some organization. I noticed some misguiding info on the marth MU (Dair being used on his shield I believe) but the majority should pick what MU to discuss first. But please no more discussion on mk, we all know how well those end up.

 

[Razmakazi]

The problem with MK discussions is that none of us are even close to as good as we need to be vs MK. As of now, MK can completely shut down Peach with our current knowledge of the match-up. And Dark's MK write-up isn't even bad but it just rly underestimates MK's options and capabilities. We need to practice this and get a lot more.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I like to stay mid-ranged vs MK w/ a turnip in hand because then I can punish a tornado attempt or fair approach w/ an OOS turnip. If he starts to dash towards you for a grab, a turnip should hit him during his dashing animation. It also is a pretty commanding position IMO. Jab is also great to use vs MK to keep him out of range and punish mistakes.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I like to stay mid-ranged vs MK w/ a turnip in hand because then I can punish a tornado attempt or fair approach w/ an OOS turnip.

This is bad. You seriously limit your options vs Meta Knight doing this and make it easier for him to punish you. You won't be able to punish a tornado ( Unless you are good at going for three pointers) You gonna get sucked in. And meta will swat the tornip and then hit you at the same time with his Fair.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

This is bad.

No it isn't

If you're shielding the Tornado, MK will either try and shield poke you and end up landing next to you or running away. If he stays close, you can OoS punish him with the Turnip

As for Fair, it can't swat it out. Iirc, MK's Fair has transcendant priority so it won't actually stop the Turnip. You can either throw it at him during Fair so it hits him and he won't catch it. If you're shielding the Fair, then OoS Turnip is, as far as I'm aware, guaranteed to hit because of the ending lag and MK's slow horizontal movement speed that doesn't allow him to get away in time. Fast falling the Fair just makes him lag and allows you to punish


Seriously, Turnips and OoS Turnips are the way to go vs MK. Even if you don't have a Turnip, you can use the sliding shield tactic in an attempt to force him to misspace and you can even Jab him Oos after Fair

 

[Dark.Pch]

Read what I quoted carefully and look at what he is saying. It is a bad idea.

 

[Razmakazi]

Oh Gadiel, Dark is right actually. I don't know what he's getting at though but that train of thought is too linear. Turnips are slow, MK can shield, MK can nado on reaction, or Up B, or space glide atk or use glide atk mindgames or insta catch throw, or dtilt your shield as the turnip is in hand, or dair camp you, or dair to nado and any nados don't even have to be landed near you. Gotta think about it all. You called it MK's fair "approach". Naaah, you're not gettin approached like that til you actually take to the air coz they know fair on shield is bad and if you take to the air you shud prob expect upb or nado.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

This is an impressively detailed guide. Nicole, I didn't know you cared so much


On the DeDeDe section-- Marth and Peach are two of the hardest characters for DeDeDe to chain grab though. They definitely aren't the easiest. Easy would be DK, Bowser, Snake, DeDeDe, Wolf, etc. etc. etc.

******** Difficulty (3 Grabs Max):

* Luigi



VERY HARD Difficulty (4 Grabs Max):

* Diddy Kong
* Toon Link
* Pit



HARD Difficulty (4-5 Grabs)

* Peach
* Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)
* Marth



AVERAGE Difficulty (5-6 Grabs)

* Mario
* Yoshi
* Wario
* Link
* Gannondorf
* Samus
* R.O.B.
* King Dedede
* Wolf
* Captain Falcon
* Ivysaur
* Charizard
* Lucario
* Ike
* Ness
* Lucas
* Snake
* Sonic



VERY EASY Difficulty (6+ Grabs!)

* Bowser
* Donkey Kong

The Falco section seems really well done, although I'm not sure what this means:

...if you see him Up-B to the stage, go in there and told him of you can.

 

[Razmakazi]

methinks i'll stop being lazy and get a snake write-up to u l8r nicole. i took the trouble to dig up the thread and bump it, so gotta commit to the dreaded follow-through. @_@

edit: love the olimar write-up btw. learned good stuffz

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'd really like to see the Snake write up cause its not a match up I get to practice often

And Dark, I was talking about using the Turnips OoS afterMK's attack, I'm not entirely sure if you meant before or after. Mine and your perception of 'mid range' is probably different though

If you're sat there reasonably close to MK in your shield when he's doing nothing then yea thats a horribly bad idea because you're stuck in your shield and he's at liberty to do whatever he likes. If he throws an attack out, then you can shield and punish it afterwards with a Turnip

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

^^^
That's where I was getting @. I respect Raz & Dark's opinions though. I know Raz gets to play w/ the Socal top MK mains so I'm sure he knows what's up.

*So what is Peach supposed to do @ mid-range to punish MK?

*When is it a good time to use turnips OOS?

 

[Razmakazi]

turnip oos is cool, but u can't plan for them to hit your shield. hitting shields is bad, every1 knows it so you can't rely on it haha

 

[Nicole]

wow i go camping for a couple days and people actually post here.

i agree about mk, dark's guide is a good guide, but no one is good enough against mk yet. however, i do think that following that writeup will make your matches with mk significantly better. i dont usually lose to mks, but i haven't gotten to play any great ones yet. dj iskascribbles beat me, which i didnt expect, and i really wanted to play seibrik but friendlies at mlg ended before i could. i dont know that turnips are necessary at all times...i'd have to play against good mk's more. spacing, ftlit, and jab seem more important. and staying alive and out of the air. its tough to kill mk before he kills you.

@ will, i didnt write most of these writeups, i just organized the info and put in a couple thoughts of my own throughout. i only did the olimar matchup so far. also, i'm pretty sure the "told" should be "toad" in that sentence you quoted.

 

[Razmakazi]

Metatitan! do a yoshi write-up! XD

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

Sounds like a good idea raz

 

[Razmakazi]

Ok, we need to stop letting this thread die.

Instead of just not saying anything i think we all should just offer what we know and talk and correct each other or offer new ideas.

It's ******** that we have this kind of thread get no posts in a week and a half but the SD is full of garbage. I know it's a cool place but it's does nothing to develop Peach at all so at the very least try to drop a posts in any useful threads around here (vid thread, critique thread, this thread, mu threads, combo threads, etc.).

If we don't shape up peach's development is just gonna stagnate or at least she will for the majority of the community.

Just share what you know or think you know!

I'll try not to be a hypocrite and think of what i can offer later tonight or sumtin.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

*applause*

I will try and put something on here but 1. I have exams on atm and they take priority and 2. I don't even know if the stuff I post is right :3

 

[Meru.]

I will try and do the write-ups. I won't do them this week though because of a multitude of tests and some other things I have to do.

 

[Airgemini]

It's ******** that we have this kind of thread get no posts in a week and a half but the SD is full of garbage. I know it's a cool place but it's does nothing to develop Peach at all so at the very least try to drop a posts in any useful threads around here (vid thread, critique thread, this thread, mu threads, combo threads, etc.).

If we don't shape up peach's development is just gonna stagnate or at least she will for the majority of the community.

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Nicole]

i'll finish updating everything sometime next week. i have a tournament this weekend and atomsk is staying at my place for a couple days, so when that's done i'll take care of business.

thanks for the help raz

 

[C.S. Dinah]

If you guys ever write up a Ness Synopsis. Its Possible to nair him out of PKT2. I wouldnt recommend doing that at point black range.

 

[Nicole]

Totally updated with all information that anyone/everyone has given me!

give me more matchups please!!!

we really need WARIO, DIDDY, GAME & WATCH, and TOON LINK if anyone knows those well.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'll have a shot at Wario sometime soon unless someone else has a burning desire to do it

But it mainly consists of being gay with Bair, Fair and Dair

 

[Razmakazi]

i don't think it's rly that simple to beat wario. i doubt it's as easy as prax makes it sound b/c i just played futile in a set and it was pretty fkn hard haha. wario is so hard to hit that he'll almost always get his fart charged up and he can edgeguard peach pretty well. he cud also go above or below bair n stuff.

iono, still pch's favor but it's hard still

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

i don't think it's rly that simple to beat wario. i doubt it's as easy as prax makes it sound b/c i just played futile in a set and it was pretty fkn hard haha. wario is so hard to hit that he'll almost always get his fart charged up and he can edgeguard peach pretty well. he cud also go above or below bair n stuff.

iono, still pch's favor but it's hard still

It isn't that simple and yea its a lot harder than Praxis makes out but Bair, Fair and Dair (the first two moreso) are absolutely crucial when fighting Wario

Traditionally, Peach's ground game combats other peoples airgame but that doesn't work vs Wario cause he can simply weave in and out of your ground game and punish you

If he goes above your Bair/Fair then jump out of the way (or do a double jump Bair) or just get back on the ground and Tilt him. If he goes below, there's a chance he'll go for a grab which is where Dair comes in handy because you can Float over his head and poke his shield a bit

Its ironic - Wario's grab is pretty huge and can wreck Peach if she's not careful and yet Peach can kill Wario at around 90% from getting a single grab. Lolz

 

[Nicole]

i think wario is a matchup that you need to play alot in order to get used to his strange aerial movement. it also seems to me that there are two major styles of wario players - campy or pretty aggressive. i actually think the aggressive kind are harder to deal with...for peach, anyway. i have very little experience against wario and i do struggle quite a bit against him. i usually just try to play extremely safe and never go for anything risky. this ends up in him not getting killed until...200 something.

but yeah, it's stupid to just say 'oh, well, bair beats wario.' because if that were the case, snake could just say 'oh, utilt beats peach,' and marth could say 'oh, sword beats peach.' players can get around a few obstacles - good warios will get around one move. bair is definitely great against him, but there are definitely many aspects to that matchup.

 

[z00ted]

Such a good thread.
For some reason I don't have any problems against Falcos though o_O

 

[Silly Kyle]

I played Furiousduffman from TX and he used his Falco on me. I destroyed it pretty hard, but I had way more trouble against his G&W What a dumb matchup! lol

I would love to help write some guides...

 

[Nicole]

well kyle, you are pretty good at the diddy matchup i hear. if you wanted to do a write-up, we definitely need one about him pretty badly, considering what a good and common character he is, and considering how annoying his bananas and fair can be.

 

[z00ted]

Texas is like Diddy central.
If Kyle doesn't write a matchup-analysis on Diddy I definitely will.
(Fliphop, Gnes experience)

 

[hiROI]

I can help with the GW match up! But best person for that would be Praxis...

Someone tell Praxis to do GW

 

[Praxis]

LolG&Wissobad.

 

[Eddie G]

I can contribute to Wario, Pikachu, and Sonic when I have some time tomorrow. ^.^

 

[MKOwnage]

I dont seem to think that the MK matchup is as hard as most Peach players make it out to be. (I think its 55:45 MK's favor of course IMO.)

Lucario is my pet peeve.

Good read though.

And as for Diddy I advise lots of Dair camping. Its not a good idea to be on stage with nanners.

 

[Meru.]

I dont seem to think that the MK matchup is as hard as most Peach players make it out to be. (I think its 55:45 MK's favor of course IMO.)

Lucario is my pet peeve.

Good read though.

And as for Diddy I advise lots of Dair camping. Its not a good idea to be on stage with nanners.

Dair camping is asking for a Fair.

It somehow is a good idea to be on stage with the bananaz... but it also isnt. This match-up is so strange. I can handle Diddy Kong easily but I cant handle his bananas at all.

 

[MKOwnage]

Dair camping is asking for a Fair.

It somehow is a good idea to be on stage with the bananaz... but it also isnt. This match-up is so strange. I can handle Diddy Kong easily but I cant handle his bananas at all.

All I know is when he is jet pack recovering turnips are a god send.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

Id like to know how the mk mu is 45:55. Last I checked its quite lower

 

[z00ted]

It IS quite lower.
I don't know how anyone could say its 45:55 :/

 

[Razmakazi]

Dair camping is asking for a Fair.

It somehow is a good idea to be on stage with the bananaz... but it also isnt. This match-up is so strange. I can handle Diddy Kong easily but I cant handle his bananas at all.

b/c dair camping is asking for a fair, spacing it carefully can easily bait one and make diddy miss so u can punish with your own fair or dair or whatever. ;o

 

[deepseadiva]

It somehow is a good idea to be on stage with the bananaz... but it also isnt. This match-up is so strange. I can handle Diddy Kong easily but I cant handle his bananas at all.

The best advice I ever got against Diddy and his bananas was to make him work for them.

Grab one and put it behind you. Get between him and his best tool. If you can, take the other and hold it.