Overswarm's PROVE IT Contest!

[SamuraiPanda]

lmao, lain your gonna get banned... everyone may agree with you, but posting it on the boards is gonna end up pissing of the mods.

<--- one of the 3 main mods of the MW boards

<--- not pissed off

 

[AOB]

Not pissed off. Just disappointed. Why can't everyone get along?

 

[Eddie G]

Instigation, attempted manipulation of the masses, trolling, take your pick.

 

[TP]

SamuraiPanda, we should go back to our intelligent discussion on the philosophy of stage legality from a few pages ago. That was when the thread was fun.

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah...dude I took your MK to last stock with Peach, back when I wasn't as good with her. I wonder what the scenario would be this time around.

And the typical troll routine is getting old, seriously. Are you really that bored? Go DO something if you are in need of entertainment, instead of sitting on your *** laughing at your worn-out snooty comebacks behind the comfort of your computer screen. Please for the love of all that is vag take my advice, OS.

I don't think I've ever played you. o_O


And while I normally would have said nothing makes me happier than laughing at someone as they get angry due to something random, I'd have to say watching people get angry at nothing at all is much too good.

 

[Eddie G]

I don't think I've ever played you. o_O


And while I normally would have said nothing makes me happier than laughing at someone as they get angry due to something random, I'd have to say watching people get angry at nothing at all is much too good.

WaB III: you win first game one stock left, I beat your Snake on Japes second game, you two stock me on Frigate third game. Ring any bells?

If you're implying that I'm angry at all...I'm not.

 

[Overswarm]

WaB III: you win first game one stock left, I beat your Snake on Japes second game, you two stock me on Frigate third game. Ring any bells?

If you're implying that I'm angry at all...I'm not.

I played snake?


Er...

I wouldn't spread that around much. >_>


and if I recall, I won that tournament.

hahaha XD

 

[Y.b.M.]

Wow.... All i have to say is... this thread is very entertaining. I mean VERY!!! This thread got me to Pause Tekken 6 for like 20 minutes....

I honestly don't care what stage I play on...

Although, I am more of EC stage list kinda guy... But adding diversity to the stage list adds an extra push to win, IMO. The contest is a nice idea but, I don't think anyone is going to participate since there is so much hating going on....

Everyone makes very interesting points regarding the stages, from both sides. Now, the question is....how can we all agree as one...?

Oh and the most important thing i forgot to say is............GOD KAIS!!!!!

 

[Overswarm]

Wow.... All i have to say is... this thread is very entertaining. I mean VERY!!! This thread got me to Pause Tekken 6 for like 20 minutes....

Haha, isn't it though? XD

Feel free to participate yourself, you guys can win like anyone else ^_^

Everyone makes very interesting points regarding the stages, from both sides. Now, the question is....how can we all agree as one...?

Making evidence to show someone as to why a stage should be banned is a good first step I'd say

 

[Eddie G]

I played snake?


Er...

I wouldn't spread that around much. >_>

Why not? A win is a win.

and if I recall, I won that tournament.

hahaha XD

Hoorah.

 

[Overswarm]

Why not? A win is a win.

What would your thought process be if someone you don't remember mentioned "doing well" by their own definition in a tournament from way back when, then followed it up by saying "I was one stocked the first game, then you picked Pit (or other random character you don't play) and I won, and then you two stocked me"? =P

 

[Eddie G]

I mentioned doing well? When did I say that exactly? I got 9th overall out of 32, not good at all. I only performed well in pools that day (got 1st seed, including wins in sets against AZ, Tyr, and Lou). So while I did not do well regarding how I placed that day, I certainly made my presence known, which is satisfying enough to me because it showed that I grew as a player in this game.

 

[Overswarm]

I meant well in that particular set.

 

[Eddie G]

I meant I don't care.

I never associated the phrase "doing well" (if I even said it) with that set. I've already pointed that out.

 

[King~]

just like the to say i have no personal qualms with OS, hes enjoyable at tourneys. and this thread is, in fact, flame bait. id like someone to do something but i dont think anyone will.

ban green greens

Spoiler

(do not tell me to make a video it will not move me and infact make me laugh at you)

also anther posted, thats not common

 

[chewyy]

OS is right, this thread is entertaining.

Luigi's Mansion - Also not that bad of a stage from every match I've played, though I could be biased because it may be one of pika's best stages.

It's one of everyone's best stage.

P.S. I might make a video over Thanksgiving break... or at least bring my capture card and whatnot back with me after break... No guarantees though.

 

[_marth1_]

this is lame
brawl is bad
get over it

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Remember when it was okay to come into a thread and flame the game itself?

Oh yeah, it never has been.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

WC stage list, do it.

Not that I minded the stage diversity here, but I kinda dig the new one I play on.

 

[_marth1_]

you got me bro
i love brawl

 

[CR4SH]

Here's the thing:
You think every tournament is a training ground for a national? Not a chance. The majority of people at tournaments I attend like these stages. Some of them wouldn't go if they weren't there because they LOVE the stages. Custom stages are frequently CPed even! When Xisin made his circuit event only have 5 starters, I thought people would complain about 2/5ths of the starters being customs. They didn't. They would strike TO the customs.

Bull****.

People didn't complain directly to you because they knew it would only be a waste of time. That's about all the correctness in that post.

How is playing your balls terrible MK other people's problems? Your MK is so bad and predictable, everyone I talk to would rather play your MK then your ROB.

O.o

I can beat his rob. His mk ***** me silly. Maybe that's a ME problem. I'm not very good.

Spare me. It obvious what you're trying to accomplish. Of course you'd never admit it up front.

Lol you give the dude too much credit. He's not quite that smart.

 

[solecalibur]

Who the hell invited the melee troll we dont give two ****s about how you like melee better some people like to play brawl you know (not crash guy above him)

Here's the thing:

I don't care about other regions.

Great some people do you know

You think every tournament is a training ground for a national? Not a chance.

I go for the fun of the tounry but some people like to compete in the national level some people have PRIDE for the MW and your just destroying it

The majority of people at tournaments I attend like these stages.

Thats bull everyone that likes the stages will come up to you during the tounry and comment on how much they like it but you have to take in account 2/3 of the community they didnt comment (Which is either neutral or didn't care for it)

Some of them wouldn't go if they weren't there because they LOVE the stages. Custom stages are frequently CPed even! When Xisin made his circuit event only have 5 starters, I thought people would complain about 2/5ths of the starters being customs. They didn't. They would strike TO the customs.

I have yet to find more then 1/3 of the MW that LOVES the custom stages
There Cp'd because some of those stages were pretty generic copys of other stages
hell if I was a diddy main I'd love custom stages it means I have two FDs!

When I was at the MWC more then half of my pool agreed to strike off the custom stages

you wont hold a vote even if its the people at a MWC tounry because you KNOW that
(Mind you should announce it before you hold one, since I know its pretty easy to get around)




I just .... no I cant read any more of this post

Im getting tired of this trollish activity and I hate being civil to a troll. My god im glad you get happy pissing people off but cant you just go to 4chan and piss off some strangers
some people want to make the best of this game and how freaken unmovable you are its just ridiculous
AZ already bent his rules because you didnt like edgegrabs and all you did was gloat about it


edit - Im most likely done staying off topic but these things need to be addressed I suppose

 

[Linkshot]

I'm starting to think the hate was generated just so that nobody has an incentive to take this seriously, and they get to keep their flat tier-whoring stages :/

I'm going to bed now.

I just want to say that I want more stages, not because I want to counterpick them, but because they were banned just off of looks and theory instead of evidence, or one bad situation that involved not knowing the stage well enough in the first place.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, practically all stages that have been banned, have been banned due to anecdotal evidence, though the exact criteria for being bannable was never set in stone. I'd go into more detail on refuting your point, but that'd be addressing it as a legitimate point.

I'm pretty sure you are not helping your case or your side very much at all. It'd be cool if you quit while you're not as behind as you will be by your next post.

 

[TheKiest]

Wow.... All i have to say is... this thread is very entertaining. I mean VERY!!! This thread got me to Pause Tekken 6 for like 20 minutes....

Prolly will retire from Brawl to play that sucker. That and BlazBlue.
Needs me a PS3 first.

OH right stages.... uh... I like stages and I have fun playing them more than playing the same 5 neutrals. Guess I'm a minority which means I'll be ignored.

Video.... I might do a GG one... but I don't know whether to defend it or not defend it...

 

[Sliq]

Why not start a poll and see just how many people really do and do not agree with OS's stage list decision? Then we'd have, like, evidence of either Os being the pope of smash and everyone loving him, or everyone thinking he is a ****head.

Also, I demand more humorous flaming. This normal hateful flaming **** is BO-RING as hell.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I've been tempted to make questionnaires for my tournaments...to see what people like/don't like and to better structure future tournaments.

 

[Overswarm]

I've been tempted to make questionnaires for my tournaments...to see what people like/don't like and to better structure future tournaments.

It'll always be a hodge-podge of preference. If people were filling out questionaires on what good music is, rap and country would be #1 and classical music would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Questionaires are great for fun stuff and information, but they'd never help make a competitive game unless the people you questioned were knowledged and unbiased about how things go. From that description, I can think of maybe.... 6 or 7 people in the MW I would trust, 12 or so if it was a long discussion.

 

[Zankoku]

It'll always be a hodge-podge of preference. If people were filling out questionaires on what good music is, rap and country would be #1 and classical music would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Questionaires are great for fun stuff and information, but they'd never help make a competitive game unless the people you questioned were knowledged and unbiased about how things go. From that description, I can think of maybe.... 6 or 7 people in the MW I would trust, 12 or so if it was a long discussion.

I'm a little confused by this statement. You say that surveys would be completely ineffective toward building a good competitive ruleset, yet

You think every tournament is a training ground for a national? Not a chance. The majority of people at tournaments I attend like these stages. Some of them wouldn't go if they weren't there because they LOVE the stages. Custom stages are frequently CPed even! When Xisin made his circuit event only have 5 starters, I thought people would complain about 2/5ths of the starters being customs. They didn't. They would strike TO the customs.

So, I don't get it. You're quick to point out the (alleged) majority in support of your stage list and custom stages, yet claim that it's a really bad idea to actually determine the majority, instead deciding it'd be better to make a generalizing assumption (somehow country being a popular music genre given who you're giving the survey to strikes me as somewhat doubtful) about the entire crowd and based on that believing that you're better at making decisions?

 

[Y.b.M.]

Prolly will retire from Brawl to play that sucker.

If I can find Tekken tournaments to go to I will go to more of them... and hurry up and get a PS3 so I can own you something serious.

I'd love to do a survey/questionnaire thingy. But only if it will have an effect on these disagreements.

The Metaknight ban thingy had votes and what not, from the entire community. So why not this....?

Oh and one more thing...........GOD KAIS!!!!

 

[AlphaZealot]

It'll always be a hodge-podge of preference. If people were filling out questionaires on what good music is, rap and country would be #1 and classical music would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Questionaires are great for fun stuff and information, but they'd never help make a competitive game unless the people you questioned were knowledged and unbiased about how things go. From that description, I can think of maybe.... 6 or 7 people in the MW I would trust, 12 or so if it was a long discussion.

A better analogy would be that
1) I ask people what music they like
2) I find out 90% of people that attend my tournaments like rap/pop/rock
3) In turn, I play rap/pop/rock at my next tournament and the overall response to the tournament is even more positive than usual (already sky-high levels).

The key OS is that you frequently confuse people who have no intent of going to a tournament and group them with people who do. The people who are willing to put down $20-$40 for a tournament and travel 1-2 hours are not the same people who, simply put, like items. The majority of people who play Brawl (I'd guess) prefer items on w/ all stages. The majority of the people who would be interested or willing to attend tournaments (a completely different group) have shown time and again that items are simply not preferred. You have brought up as anecdotal evidence before that, if the majority were followed, we would be playing with items. For the reason I stated above, this is not true, since this majority will never come out and spend $20-$40 on a tournament.

When structuring a tournament/rules you need to keep in mind what your target audience is. You can't associate the majority of Smashers with the majority of tournament Smashers.

 

[Exceladon City]

The Metaknight ban thingy had votes and what not, from the entire community. So why not this....?

Oh and one more thing.............GOD KAIS!!!

Yeah and that worked marvelously. \sarcasm

I personally didn't like the custom stages so I struck them first. TBH I'd rather take the chance of fighting a Marth or GW on BF, instead of getting stuck with them on a stage I'm totally uncomfortable with. So giving up 2 stage strikes for the sake of familiarity sounds like a better idea than just shrugging it off and dealing with said stages.
Oh and one more thing...KERORO PLATOON!!!

 

[Sucumbio]

*runs back in*

and let me just preface, you know my mind, OS, I'm all for liberal stage lists, and why... but in -this- thread, one you created to seemingly give people a chance to disprove something you've created, it has ended up serving two things: an entertaining read (lain's got you dude, your MK is trash apparently, hahaha.. sorry) and 2, a place for those who object to your decisions to voice these objections, however effectively or ineffectively that may be going down.

Here's the thing:

I don't care about other regions.

Fair enough, however you should note that the true metagame is accelerating at various Regional rates, and your stage preference will absolutely effect that for MW, because as LS tries and fails to point out, stages influence how a specific character must be used (duh) ergo Snake on FD =/= Snake on RC.

You think every tournament is a training ground for a national? Not a chance.

Eh, not every Participant at a tourney is training for national status, but like any sport, a tournament is in fact usually meant to be such, if the participant so desires. Again, this goes back to Regional Metagames. If you were to take the top 5 players (going just by win ration, ranks 1-5) from each region, and then had a tournament on Neutrals between them all, which region would come out on top? To hear ppl in this thread talk, it wouldn't be MW.

The majority of people at tournaments I attend like these stages. Some of them wouldn't go if they weren't there because they LOVE the stages. Custom stages are frequently CPed even! When Xisin made his circuit event only have 5 starters, I thought people would complain about 2/5ths of the starters being customs. They didn't. They would strike TO the customs.

I can't speak to this so I'll take your word for it.

Not everyone is so brain-dead that they think playing on smashville 24/7 will make them a better player. Most of our players recognize how good it is to always win on your CP. Sai, a Diddy main here that is improving tourney after tourney, beat Kel on Pictochat, Sai's CP. He picked it because it gave him plenty of room for bananas and the hazards, when used properly, helped make up for Diddy's lack of kill power. When the pressure was on, Sai could run away until a transformation that often let him get his bananas back. It was a close match, but Sai won that game. It wasn't random; it was a very specific choice.

Why is that bad? He chose a stage that helps him. You'd rather him CP to battlefield, where the stage doesn't really help him naturally? What for?

Fair enough, however the point being made against this is the -dependency- on having to win on your CP. In a 3 match set, going Neutral CP CP, the percentage chance of outcome Win Loss Win is far greater for players that don't do well on Neutrals. Lain's point, and others, is that by relying on CP, you lock yourself into a cycle of loss, rather than a real chance of win (based on skill alone). This -may- be remedied by removing the jankiest of CPs, thus bring Neutrality closer to the CP, but in essence, the flaw is in the dependency.

The MW will always have the greatest character diversity in addition to the largest number of stages available; this is not a coincidence. When you lower the amount of stages available for play, you reduce character viability; look at all the stages in Brawl and you'll find that the majority of G&W's best stages are banned. Many of them rightfully so, but that is irrelevant; G&W is a worse character overall because of this. On the flipside, characters like ICs, Diddy, Falco, and other characters that love flat/plat stages get better since we use those stages as starters and they are all exactly the same.

I can't agree here, I've just seen too many match sets on Neutrals where S and A tier characters won, because the brawler was better, -not- because they took advantage of a CP. (Unless you're saying B, C, even D tier could have shot w/this stage list, but ... nah no way.) Neutrals are so designated because the stage influences the fight to the least amount possible. As for flat, ok, FD is flat, BF has platforms, SV has a moving platform and balloons (small jank but not too bad), Lylat is a flat see-saw w/3 platforms, YI(B) has curved floor, flat plat that see saws, AND it has some jank thrown in (worse than SV). These are enough stages that between all of them, all the brawl characters can play fairly.

Knowing this, I can never say "I'm going to ban this stage because I don't like it". I have to see a reason for the sake of balance, and someone saying "that's dumb" or "that's not competitive" doesn't even make me flinch. You gotta have proof.

The proof is in the national results of tournaments, who wins, and who loses. Top ranked players vs each other, they'll play on some CPs, but the majority of their fights will be on neutrals, and for a simple reason. They don't want stage elements influencing their brawl.

 

[Overswarm]

Fair enough, however the point being made against this is the -dependency- on having to win on your CP. In a 3 match set, going Neutral CP CP, the percentage chance of outcome Win Loss Win is far greater for players that don't do well on Neutrals. Lain's point, and others, is that by relying on CP, you lock yourself into a cycle of loss, rather than a real chance of win (based on skill alone). This -may- be remedied by removing the jankiest of CPs, thus bring Neutrality closer to the CP, but in essence, the flaw is in the dependency.

They're wrong.

If two players play each other and are at equal skill and one says "I'm only going to pick the most neutral and fair stage for this matchup" and the other says "I'm going to play to win and use the best options available to me", the second player will win the majority of the time.

It's not like we have a crazy party every tournament where every other stage is PTAD. People practice on the starters too, but they also practice their CP. This generally results in them having an advantage over scrubs that think they can just force it by playing straight starters. The only players that can say "play on only starters, you'll get better" are IC, Diddy, and Falco mains. Marth mains to an extent.

 

[Prawn]

Lolwut at all of this.

 

[sneakytako]

They're wrong.

If two players play each other and are at equal skill and one says "I'm only going to pick the most neutral and fair stage for this matchup" and the other says "I'm going to play to win and use the best options available to me", the second player will win the majority of the time.

It's not like we have a crazy party every tournament where every other stage is PTAD. People practice on the starters too, but they also practice their CP. This generally results in them having an advantage over scrubs that think they can just force it by playing straight starters. The only players that can say "play on only starters, you'll get better" are IC, Diddy, and Falco mains. Marth mains to an extent.

See the problem is the CPs only make a difference if the players skill level is even or close. Having the unexpected CP can win you the game only if you HAVE A CHANCE of winning on a neutral. Sai CPing Kel to Pictochat is meaningless if he can't win on a neutral, and Kels probably confident he can beat him on neutrals twice T.T

 

[Eddie G]

The only players that can say "play on only starters, you'll get better" are IC, Diddy, and Falco mains. Marth mains to an extent.

That's an exaggeration and you know it. If you want to get into something as vague as "who says this"...then Peach players will also preach for a more "simplistic" stagelist. Yeah...I can speak for unknown crowds and numbers too. Try a new approach.

 

[Baro]

ICs are pretty freakin good on banned stages.

 

[sunshade]

I do not understand the idea that tournaments are the place you learn to be better. A tournament has always struck me as the test of the player and friendlies as the homework. When I go to a tournament I plan on trying to win and after it is over I look at how I preformed and look to correct the mistakes I made. I don't take a math test so that I become better at math, I do the math homework so I can pass the test and learn.

I also do not understand this dependency idea. If we use the more radical stages then you can say that you have a very high chance of winning your counterpick and your opponent has a high chance winning their's. By having a radical stage list it means that to win you must win the neutral because if you do not then its your counter pick (then you win) then your opponent counter picks (and they win) resulting in your loss of the set. If anything the more radical the stage list the more skilled you have to be on neutrals because the first set on a neutral determines who wins. If a player is highly skilled on neutral stages than a dynamic stage list allows them to have a more dominant advantage because of it.

I would even go so far as to say that by using a restrained stage list you are becoming dependent on neutral stages and on the ability to lose the first the set and have a chance at coming back on the opponents counter pick.

 

[Zankoku]

I do not understand the idea that tournaments are the place you learn to be better. A tournament has always struck me as the test of the player and friendlies as the homework. When I go to a tournament I plan on trying to win and after it is over I look at how I preformed and look to correct the mistakes I made. I don't take a math test so that I become better at math, I do the math homework so I can pass the test and learn.

This worked until people stopped treating friendlies seriously and wouldn't play for real unless it was a tournament match or a money match.