Pikachu discussion

[blaze3927]

what are peoples thoughts about pikachu falcon on peach's castle and safron city?
imo
safron best camper wins
peachs castle whoever is underneath wins,

 

[ciaza]

Go to bed.
Peach's castle the pikachu should be dominant as falcon has an extremely hard time getting back to the stage once he's gone off it.

Saffron is close, probably like 60-40 pikachu.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i find that it isn't that much of an issue to have a stage that Falcon is gimped more in the matchup as Falcon isn't probably recovering anyway so you should pick a stage that would allow Falcon to approach Pikachu properly. Maybe its my bias for Peach's castle but I like that stage for the Pika matchup. Pikachu can probably camp Falcon better so Saffron would most likely be in Pikachu's favor. It isn't a terrible matchup by any means for Falcon, I do consider it 60-40 Pikachu overall.

 

[The Star King]

I agree with Koro for once.

Lol Saffron is terrible

 

[ciaza]

Rarely recovering? If pikachu lands a grab on the bottom part of PC the falcon will be trying to recover due to the smallness of the stage. Combine that with the fact there are no ledges for Falcon to grab onto when coming back makes a Pika Fsmash twice as effective.

 

[SSBPete]

Rarely recovering? If pikachu lands a grab on the bottom part of PC the falcon will be trying to recover due to the smallness of the stage. Combine that with the fact there are no ledges for Falcon to grab onto when coming back makes a Pika Fsmash twice as effective.

3 times as effective since there is no wall to di off

 

[The Star King]

Doesn't matter too much if it's "3 times as effective", Falcon will rarely recover successfully on other stages anyways.

 

[ciaza]

But on other stages he has more of a chance. Hyrule he won't be going off as much if he stays somewhat near the center, Dreamland he can use the special wall DI, and Kongo granted will probably be close to as bad, but you can get lucky with the barrel sometimes, and at least he grab on to the ledges.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Falcon shouldn't be able to recover vs Pikachu on any stage if the Pikachu does not mess up.

But people say the same thing about ness's recovery and Link's recovery being absolutely terrible and Ness's recover every so often. That is why I said he isn't probably.

Though I do find it much easier for Falcon to survive Pikachu's kills on Peach's castle due to the sides. Why do ledges matter for Falcon's recovery. If anything, ledges help Pikachu at recovering as Pikachu can grab the edge and simply do an edgeguard from there.

Or how people say that there are impossible matchups but people occasionally win anyway.

 

[ciaza]

Falcon shouldn't be able to recover vs Pikachu on any stage if the Pikachu does not mess up.

I agree, but I argue that on PC it is easier for Falcon to be put in a recovery situation. As opposed to say Hyrule, where getting him off the edge can be much harder.

Though I do find it much easier for Falcon to survive Pikachu's kills on Peach's castle due to the sides.

I agree to the sides being beneficial to helping Falcon not getting gimped so easily. They prevent an easy kill for pikachu if he got a grab up the top as the knockback of his grabs lead right to them. If pikachu gets a grab on the bottom parts of the stage though they stop being quite as useful.

Why do ledges matter for Falcon's recovery. If anything, ledges help Pikachu at recovering as Pikachu can grab the edge and simply do an edgeguard from there.

I can see ledges as being a double edged sword if you want to put it like that. However, I would argue that edges would be more beneficial to falcon's recovery than they would against it. He can't even wall DI the moving platform, and not being able to grab the middle of the stage leaves him wide open to attack even if he somehow does make it back.

Or how people say that there are impossible matchups but people occasionally win anyway.

I am not saying the match-up is impossible for Falcon, I know Falcon can combo quite well there and even edgeguard the Pikachu to some degree, but I would definitely say PC is the worse stage for Falcon than the other legal stages.

 

[The Star King]

Ledges definitely help Pikachu more than Falcon.

Spoiler

Jesus I've been lazy with my posts lately.

 

[Ocean]

Though I do find it much easier for Falcon to survive Pikachu's kills on Peach's castle due to the sides. Why do ledges matter for Falcon's recovery. If anything, ledges help Pikachu at recovering as Pikachu can grab the edge and simply do an edgeguard from there.

if falcon gets put offstage on PC, anywhere he can land back on stage is a death zone basically. if the platform is out, he can land on the platform, in which the vast majorities of cases pikachu can wait until he lands, and then throw him offstage, to either repeat or for the kill. if the platform is in, then he can go to the bottom middle where pikachu can wait for him to helplessly land and then either start a combo, or throw him offstage depending on his percentage. if falcon aims for the upper platform, which is generally his safest option, pikachu can do the same as the bottom platform. the advantage to the larger platform is falcon has more room to land on, and possibly escape getting hit by pikachu.

ledges help falcon's recovery because it adds another layer of options. if you don't have a ledge, then you have to go the stage because there's no other possible option. not to mention if you're going to recover to the stage, you pretty much have to recover high, since there's a huge risk of you missing the stage and falling to your death regardless of what pikachu does. if there's ledges, you can also recover low, and maybe avoid a bair/nair edgeguard that would otherwise hit while recovering high. also if you get to an edge, you have the ability to ledgehop on with an aerial, and possibly work your way back to the stage, as opposed to landing on stage with the lag from up-b. ledges help pikachu some, but not as much as falcon, since pikachu's recovery is already more versatile and less predictable than falcon's. he doesn't need to rely on that extra option as much as falcon does.

it's very debatable how important this is the matchup though. either way, pikachu is going to have the upper hand, especially when falcon is offstage. it's not an impossible matchup, but it's not easy for falcon at all.

 

[ciaza]

Ocean elaborated quite nicely.

Ledges definitely help Pikachu more than Falcon.

Spoiler

Jesus I've been lazy with my posts lately.

Elaborate please?

To me not having a ledge for Falcon to grab onto is the same as the Pikachu having a tag team partner edgehogging against the falcon permanently, with no chance of getting attacked off. The Pikachu then just has to stay and cover the other few options Falcon has to recover.

Spoiler

I think potential BRoomers are hurriedly trying to make decent posts before the deadline, lol

 

[The Star King]

1. The landing lag for Pikachu's Up-B is pretty bad. The ability to instantly grab the ledge with a difficult-to-punish recovery is part of what makes Pikachu's recovery so good, and Peach's Castle takes that away.
2. In contrast, the landing lag for Falcon isn't very bad at all, so I'm not sure why you think ledges help Falcon so much. A decent Pikachu will edgeguard Falcon successfully pretty much every time even on stages with ledges, so they aren't going to help if Pikachu can cover all of Falcon's options anyways.

 

[Ocean]

1. The landing lag for Pikachu's Up-B is pretty bad. The ability to instantly grab the ledge with a difficult-to-punish recovery is part of what makes Pikachu's recovery so good, and Peach's Castle takes that away.
2. In contrast, the landing lag for Falcon isn't very bad at all, so I'm not sure why you think ledges help Falcon so much. A decent Pikachu will edgeguard Falcon successfully pretty much every time even on stages with ledges, so they aren't going to help if Pikachu can cover all of Falcon's options anyways.

1. hm. you're right, ledges do help pikachu a lot in that regard. still, a pikachu recovering on PC is going to have multiple options since they can aim their up-b for any of the three platforms, while falcon will generally only have one. it's easier to edgeguard someone with less landing lag and one option, than someone with more landing lag and multiple options, in my opinion.
2. hey, players make mistakes sometimes, and when they do, I'd rather have two options than one.

 

[asianaussie]

Pikachu's ability to grab ledges so easily is only half of the reason why his recovery is so good. Most of the other half is the huge distance and the ability to zip in-stage so far and so fast, which is why his recovery isn't really that bad on Peach's.

 

[ciaza]

At point 1: I think there has been some mis-interpretation.

If anything, ledges help Pikachu at recovering as Pikachu can grab the edge and simply do an edgeguard from there.

I thought he was arguing that ledges would help Pikachu to edgeguard Falcon better. Hopefully Koro will come in soon and clarify.

If he was stating what you were saying I would agree.

There's not much point in me talking about your second point until we get the first cleared up.

 

[The Star King]

Pikachu's ability to grab ledges so easily is only half of the reason why his recovery is so good. Most of the other half is the huge distance and the ability to zip in-stage so far and so fast, which is why his recovery isn't really that bad on Peach's.

*sigh* I knew someone was going to say this, that's why I said it's PART of the reason it's good. Ledges still help Pikachu more than Falcon. And I'm not saying it's bad on Peach's (or any stage), just that it's worse compared to other stages. Nice strawman though.

 

[asianaussie]

*sigh* I knew someone was going to take it as an attack on their knowledge and respond in a derisive manner.

I'm so sick of the term strawman being used, especially when I wasn't even attacking anyone's argument at all. I can see why you thought you were being attacked, but I assure you, at the beginning I even had the term 'I agree' written there. After that, Ocean ninja'd and I edited it out, rather than bothering to quote your reply.

 

[The Star King]

If you're not attacking my argument, then why do you randomly post it in the middle of the discussion?

 

[Ocean]

guys.

 

[The Star King]

We're best buds, bro.

The 64 community is PRETTY CLOSE.

 

[ciaza]

aa was just firing from the sides.

I LOVE this live-topic feature. Sick edit Star King, I didn't miss it.

 

[The Star King]

I always make obsessive little edits to my grammar/wording/typos/things I say that I then think may not have been a good idea.

 

[asianaussie]

As do I.

Guess I was posting for the sake of posting. Break the page with a nice bluey blob avatar.

3,000 soon, yay.

Spoiler

grey icon next to backroom makes me sad, guys

 

[ciaza]

I do it too, to make sure things don't get taken the wrong way.
You have no idea how pumped I am for my 1000th post.

BUT ANYWAY. I challenge people to space with a running thunder more. If you can predict your opponent's approach it's actually not that hard. + comboing anything starting from a thunder feels god-like.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I do it too, to make sure things don't get taken the wrong way.
You have no idea how pumped I am for my 1000th post.

BUT ANYWAY. I challenge people to space with a running thunder more. If you can predict your opponent's approach it's actually not that hard. + comboing anything starting form a thunder feels god-like.

Mixing Dairs into Uair chains is god like. I challenge more people to do that!

 

[Ocean]

dair is such a beautiful move. I love it.

 

[The Star King]

The running thunder sounds like a cool thing to try out.

I like gimmicks. Wut.

 

[Ocean]

double jump retreating thunder also can work sometimes too. there's not much you can do to follow up on it though.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

At point 1: I think there has been some mis-interpretation.
I thought he was arguing that ledges would help Pikachu to edgeguard Falcon better. Hopefully Koro will come in soon and clarify.

If he was stating what you were saying I would agree.

There's not much point in me talking about your second point until we get the first cleared up.

Of:
Pikachu would have an easier time edgeguarding Falcon with ledges
Falcon would have a harder time edgeguarding Pikachu with ledges

I originally meant the first 1. But I find the 2nd point even more valid. Pikachu's recovery goes too far onto the stage to allow people to jump on the ledge and then punish Pikachu after he recovers on stage. It is better without a ledge as Pikachu has less options

 

[ciaza]

OK. Agreed that taking away the ledge gives Pikachu less options, but I still feel he has a lot more than a Falcon. You can quick attack into the bumper and the knockback sends you just far enough away to avoid the attack your opponent is doing, and the hitstun wears off fast enough so you can quickly land on the stage safely. You can also quick attack relatively easy under the stage too.

Meanwhile I feel taking away a ledge for Falcon cuts down about half of his recovery game, and Ocean covered how to punish the rest earlier.

 

[The Star King]

We've been over this. How often does Falcon recover vs. a decent Pikachu on stages WITH ledges? It doesn't matter how much the ledges help if Falcon dies nearly every time whether the stage has ledges or not.

And you have still yet to explain how the ledges help Falcon so much. It's not like his Up-B has a lot of landing lag, and he depends on the ledges to cut that out. It's not like the ledge gives him a lot of opportunities to recover when Pikachu can cover all of Falcon's recovery options anyways with a uair/bair/dair/dtilt/fsmash, depending on the situation. You're just saying a vague, "It cuts down on his recovery," and leaving it at that.

I'm not saying ledges don't help Falcon AT ALL, I'm just saying they help Pikachu more than Falcon.

Spoiler

I disagree with Koro saying ledges help Pikachu edgeguard though lol, that's just silly.

 

[Olikus]

Star king has become the master of hidden messages.

 

[The Star King]

P.S. I can understand why you think that the stage harms Falcon's recovery. It's a small stage, and so it's kind of naturally instinctive to think that. Due to the small nature of the stage, Pikachu may get more OPPORTUNITIES to edgeguard, but not much more than Dreamland, and the edgeguarding itself isn't that much better.

 

[ciaza]

We've been over this. How often does Falcon recover vs. a decent Pikachu on stages WITH ledges? It doesn't matter how much the ledges help if Falcon dies nearly every time whether the stage has ledges or not.

And you have still yet to explain how the ledges help Falcon so much. It's not like his Up-B has a lot of landing lag, and he depends on the ledges to cut that out. It's not like the ledge gives him a lot of opportunities to recover when Pikachu can cover all of Falcon's recovery options anyways with a uair/bair/dair/dtilt/fsmash, depending on the situation. You're just saying a vague, "It cuts down on his recovery," and leaving it at that.

I'm not saying ledges don't help Falcon AT ALL, I'm just saying they help Pikachu more than Falcon.

Spoiler

I disagree with Koro saying ledges help Pikachu edgeguard though lol, that's just silly.

I can see your point about Falcon not being able to get back even with ledges against a solid Pikachu, but having a slim chance is a lot better than next to 0 chance.

Ledges help Falcon because they're basically half his recovery game. On PC, his options are to try to land on the upper platform or land on the moving platform. A Pikachu Fsmash destroys his chances of safely landing on the moving platform. If a ledge was available to grab onto he might be able to fast fall through the upper platform and grab onto the ledge, but obviously in reality he can't. Most importantly: obviously his recovery is very small, sometimes his only option is to try and land onto the moving platform, but when the moving platform is on the other side of the stage he has 0 chance since he has no ledge to attempt to grab.

Sure, Pikachu's recovery game suffers too, but as Ocean, aa and I, mentioned he has quite a few more options than Falcon, and I believe that his recovery game doesn't drop as much as Falcon's does.

If you want to talk about Dreamland I would argue that Falcon has a much greater chance to recover than PC. You have no idea how many times that Dreamland-specific reverse wall DI (or w/e it's called) has saved me. Not saying the Falcon is going to get back most of the time, quite the opposite, but again certainly more than on PC.

I apologise if I was vague when I said it cuts down on his recovery, but I believe I re-directed to Ocean's post who had covered most of the stuff quite well.

 

[The Star King]

I can see your point about Falcon not being able to get back even with ledges against a solid Pikachu, but having a slim chance is a lot better than next to 0 chance.

Obviously. The point is it's a small difference.

Ledges help Falcon because they're basically half his recovery game. On PC, his options are to try to land on the upper platform or land on the moving platform. A Pikachu Fsmash destroys his chances of safely landing on the moving platform. If a ledge was available to grab onto he might be able to fast fall through the upper platform and grab onto the ledge, but obviously in reality he can't.

What prevents him from fastfalling through the upper platform and landing on the lower platform? Like I said, the landing lag for his Up-B isn't bad at all. A Pikachu FSmash, spaced correctly, would destroy his chances whether there was a ledge or not - see other stages.

Most importantly: obviously his recovery is very small, sometimes his only option is to try and land onto the moving platform, but when the moving platform is on the other side of the stage he has 0 chance since he has no ledge to attempt to grab.

0 chance? He can still land on the stage like usual. Unless you mean that he is sometimes too far away to have a chance, which can be true just as often on Dreamland as well, since if Falcon can only make it to the ledge Pikachu can easily edgehog.

Sure, Pikachu's recovery game suffers too, but as Ocean, aa and I, mentioned he has quite a few more options than Falcon, and I believe that his recovery game doesn't drop as much as Falcon's does.

So? Pikachu always has more options, regardless of stage. Don't compare the options of Pikachu directly against the options of Falcon, compare the options of Pikachu on Peach's Castle vs. other stages, and the same for Falcon (in the context of this match-up).

If you want to talk about Dreamland I would argue that Falcon has a much greater chance to recover than PC. You have no idea how many times that Dreamland-specific reverse wall DI (or w/e it's called) has saved me. Not saying the Falcon is going to get back most of the time, quite the opposite, but again certainly more than on PC.

If Falcon is granted many opportunities to utilize reverse ledge DI, it likely means Pikachu isn't edgeguarding correctly. You can easily hit Falcon with an aerial before he is close enough to the ledge where reverse ledge DI is realistic. And if you start FSmash a bit early and Falcon goes up into it, he will get hit by the bottom part of the FSmash and reverse ledge DI is really hard, since you have to DI into the top corner of the ledge.

I apologise if I was vague when I said it cuts down on his recovery, but I believe I re-directed to Ocean's post who had covered most of the stuff quite well.

Ocean seems to fail to realize that Pikachu can cover ALL of Falcon's options, including going for the ledge. If it was a rock-paper-scissors sort of thing I would agree, but Pikachu can basically throw out "gun" every time and beat anything Falcon does.

Ok, summarizing the most important point (which I'm repeating for the umpteenth time):
Yes, ledges help Falcon. And yes, as you put it, "a slim chance is better than next to 0 chance". However, no matter what stage Falcon is on, he will likely die once he gets knocked off stage in this match-up - I think we can all agree that Falcon's recovery is terrible. For Pikachu, however, ledges add a nice, safe option to eliminate landing lag and keep Falcon guessing. Even though Falcon IS helped by ledges, it's a small advantage because he dies most of the time anyway, so it helps Pikachu more. I am NOT saying Pikachu's recovery is bad on Peach's Castle. I am saying the lack of ledges affect Pikachu MORE. Don't say things like "he has quite a few more options than Falcon", when this is true on any stage, and you shouldn't be comparing their recoveries directly that way, but be looking at how the stage affects each individual character.

 

[Ocean]

Ocean seems to fail to realize that Pikachu can cover ALL of Falcon's options, including going for the ledge. If it was a rock-paper-scissors sort of thing I would agree, but Pikachu can basically throw out "gun" every time and beat anything Falcon does.

I wasn't saying have ledges makes it so pikachu has less ability to cover his options. I was thinking about in similar terms to tech chasing, where getting rid of edges is similar to removing one of the 4 options of teching (which in retrospect was a bit silly of me).

ultimately, you're right. I see what you are saying about ledges assisting pikachu more than falcon.

 

[ciaza]

Obviously. The point is it's a small difference.

Small, but not minuscule. Through this so far I can see that ledges don't help Falcon as much as I originally thought however.

What prevents him from fastfalling through the upper platform and landing on the lower platform? Like I said, the landing lag for his Up-B isn't bad at all. A Pikachu FSmash, spaced correctly, would destroy his chances whether there was a ledge or not - see other stages.

The upper platform is wider than the bottom. If you fastfall through it at the edge you won't land in the middle of the stage. I'll give you it though because in smash theory trying to refute "a well-spaced pikachu fsmash" is impossible, but justifiably so.

0 chance? He can still land on the stage like usual. Unless you mean that he is sometimes too far away to have a chance, which can be true just as often on Dreamland as well, since if Falcon can only make it to the ledge Pikachu can easily edgehog.

I disagree. Raising one of my initial points I find that on PC falcon is recovering a lot more than other stages, including Dreamland. Sometimes thanks to a dual hit at high percents or something the Pikachu isn't around to edgeguard. On DL Falcon can grab the ledge, on PC he has to be lucky enough to have a moving platform come his way.

Granted this can seem situational, but it's happened to me quite a lot.

So? Pikachu always has more options, regardless of stage. Don't compare the options of Pikachu directly against the options of Falcon, compare the options of Pikachu on Peach's Castle vs. other stages, and the same for Falcon (in the context of this match-up).

I agree, but I raised the comparison because of my initial argument that PC is the best stage for the Pikachu - Falcon match-up (that I've only recently realised has been deviated to focus on only one of my points - no ledges).

If Falcon is granted many opportunities to utilize reverse ledge DI, it likely means Pikachu isn't edgeguarding correctly. You can easily hit Falcon with an aerial before he is close enough to the ledge where reverse ledge DI is realistic. And if you start FSmash a bit early and Falcon goes up into it, he will get hit by the bottom part of the FSmash and reverse ledge DI is really hard, since you have to DI into the top corner of the ledge.

I'm not saying he would get loads and loads, but more than enough, and at least he has the opportunity to. I accept it's harder to reverse DI if the Fsmash starts early, but it's not impossible and tbh I can nail it most times.

Ocean seems to fail to realize that Pikachu can cover ALL of Falcon's options, including going for the ledge. If it was a rock-paper-scissors sort of thing I would agree, but Pikachu can basically throw out "gun" every time and beat anything Falcon does.

Agreed, but sometimes bullets miss. When they do on other stages he can take advantage by grabbing the ledge.

Ok, summarizing the most important point (which I'm repeating for the umpteenth time):
Yes, ledges help Falcon. And yes, as you put it, "a slim chance is better than next to 0 chance". However, no matter what stage Falcon is on, he will likely die once he gets knocked off stage in this match-up - I think we can all agree that Falcon's recovery is terrible. For Pikachu, however, ledges add a nice, safe option to eliminate landing lag and keep Falcon guessing. Even though Falcon IS helped by ledges, it's a small advantage because he dies most of the time anyway, so it helps Pikachu more. I am NOT saying Pikachu's recovery is bad on Peach's Castle. I am saying the lack of ledges affect Pikachu MORE. Don't say things like "he has quite a few more options than Falcon", when this is true on any stage, and you shouldn't be comparing their recoveries directly that way, but be looking at how the stage affects each individual character.

I completely understand your argument and I can see your point. Regardless I feel that pikachu doesn't need ledges to have a phenomenal recovery game and I don't think not having ledges drops it overly. He doesn't even have horrible ending lag unless he quick attacks at the ground/platform, or if he ends the up B too high and has to float to the ground. A good recovery should not see much ending lag. I do agree that Falcon's recovery is terrible. 9/10 on any stage the Falcon will be dead once he goes off. I argue that this goes up to 9.9/10 on PC.


Anyway as I mentioned before ledges was just one of my points concerning this being the worst stage for the F-P match-up which obviously got lost along the way >_>. Somehow I don't think anyone cares about that anymore though.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I'm not saying he would get loads and loads, but more than enough, and at least he has the opportunity to. I accept it's harder to reverse DI if the Fsmash starts early, but it's not impossible and tbh I can nail it most times.
.

If your DI is capable of doing that kinda stuff 99% of the time I'd just Dtilt you away instead. The ledge di doesn't always save you either. I've seen it send people upwards which just leaves them open for another attack.


Not gonna get into this debate just thought i should inject about edge guarding and how to adjust for people with crazy deadzones


and a side note, pikachus upBs ending is god awful....god awful.