Pit's recovery is simply too good

[kaizo13]

i think many players can agree that Pit's current recovery is simply too effective for a Melee environment. when compared too Charizard's recovery Pit's is vastly superior. Aside from pit having more jumps (4) he can also jump out of glide, jump after getting hit while gliding, AND the ability to glide twice. All things that Charizard cannot do.

that being said, i play Charizard and i have no problems getting back on stage, so what justifies Pit having all these extra recovery options??

his jump out of glide is understandable since it is a big part of his combo game and it makes him quite unique.....but being able to jump after getting hit out of glide and also gaining a 2nd glide from the ground is just overkill.

Removing those two extra options would tone down Pit's recovery just enough for it to fit in with the rest of the cast. Still a great recovery, but just not over the top good.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Pit is fine and he is more than likely NOT going to be changing in any dramatic ways. He has been the same for a few builds now, only receiving minor tweaks here and there. Go sloak else where.

 

[kaizo13]

Pit is fine and he is more than likely NOT going to be changing inany dramatic ways. He has been the same for a few builds now, only receiving minor tweaks here and there. Go soak else where.

it would be a lot more helpful if you actually provided reasons why you don't believe his recovery needs to be changed

seeing as you are not in the PMBR i don't think saying "Pit more than likely won't be changing" holds much value.

 

[Sharkz]

it would be a lot more helpful if you actually provided reasons why you don't believe his recovery needs to be changed

seeing as you are not in the PMBR i don't think saying "Pit more than likely won't be changing" holds much value.

Cmart before 3.0 hit:

PIt's build has been fairly stable for a long time, so don't expect any large surprises. That being said, we have been paying attention to community feedback, so expect some small tweaks that target: safety on shield, dair sweetspot, and upsmash power. You'll be able to see and play with the specifics in a few days when we release along with a changelist.

 

[kaizo13]

@ Sharkz
yeah i remember reading that, but that was before 3.0.

Pit's meta-game has grown quite a bit since then thanks to players like Armada, ZeRo, Gallo and plenty others. Their perspectives may change over time as characters are further explored and pushed to new boundaries.

remember that everything is subjected to change until Gold release. until then, it doesn't hurt to discuss things.

 

[Pika_thunder]

the PMBR most likely already addressed this since 3.0 has been out for a while now, but just incase...

i think many players can agree that Pit's current recovery is simply too effective for a Melee environment. when compared too Charizard's recovery Pit's is vastly superior. Aside from pit having more jumps (4) he can also jump out of glide, jump after getting hit while gliding, AND the ability to glide twice. All things that Charizard cannot do.

that being said, i play Charizard and i have no problems getting back on stage, so what justifies Pit having all these extra recovery options??

his jump out of glide is understandable since it is a big part of his combo game and it makes him quite unique.....but being able to jump after getting hit out of glide and also gaining a 2nd glide from the ground is just overkill.

Removing those two extra options would tone down Pit's recovery just enough for it to fit in with the rest of the cast. Still a great recovery, but just not over the top good.

1. Deal with it. Pit has other downsides!
2. Many, many characters have better recovery than charazard, he is not a good base line.
3. Stfu, really. No one cares. His glide is balanced, his recovery is still not the best. Have you even thought of trying to hit him while he's recovering before johning? It's really easy.
4. These are buffs charazard should get, not ways pit should be nerfed.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I know like 5 or 7 PMBR Members, that I have immediate access to, not that means anything..

 

[kaizo13]

telling someone to "deal with it" or to "stfu" is not really a good way to get your point across,
but i'll go ahead and reply anyways

1. what are these downsides you speak off? because he seems like a very well rounded character with a variety of recovery options
2. i was only comparing 2 of the few characters with glides.
3. sure you can hit him while he's recovering, but can't you do that to any character? the point is he has more options than necessary
4. Like i said, i play Charizard and i have no trouble getting back to the stage, so no i don't think he needs any recovery buffs. if i get hit high, i just glide back or side-b towards the stage. if hit low, just using you jumps and up-b usually does the trick.

I know like 5 or 7 PMBR Members, that I have immediate access to, not that means anything..

....don't we all? it's called the IRC chat

 

[cmart]

I might know a few pmbr members

 

[kaizo13]

I might know a few pmbr members

just a few? the pmbr should let you out the dungeon more often

jokes aside, were u involved with Pit's development at some point or did u pick him up as a char?
if so, mind sharing thoughts on his current recovery?

allowing him to jump after getting hit out of glide just seems too lenient due to the fact that 1. he can jump out of glide to avoid getting hit in the first place and 2. he can attack out of glide with any aerial to avoid getting hit.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Only decent pit player i have seen is Armada, and even then he beat M2K simply because he knew how to beat fox and he was good. Thats it, it wasnt because pit was "too good".

Until we start seeing a characterdominate distinctly, there should be no reason to nerf on a whim.

 

[kaizo13]

Only decent pit player i have seen is Armada, and even then he beat M2K simply because he knew how to beat fox and he was good. Thats it, it wasnt because pit was "too good".

Until we start seeing a characterdominate distinctly, there should be no reason to nerf on a whim.

lol @ calling Armada's pit decent

but yeah, i agree with you to a certain extent, but look back at some previous changes. remember Pit losing the ability to glide twice from the air? ...Why? certainly nobody was dominating with Pit back then so why change it? because it was bad game design and it was too effective.

allowing pit to jump after getting hit out of glide takes away from the risk of using it as a recovery option. Pit has 4 jumps, most of the time he can make it back with jumps + up-b alone.

glide is an extra tool which if executed correctly allows you to quickly grab the ledge, get back onstage much faster or even counter with a surprise attack. there needs to be a bit more of a risk factor is all i'm saying.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

lol @ calling Armada's pit decent

but yeah, i agree with you to a certain extent, but look back at some previous changes. remember Pit losing the ability to glide twice from the air? ...Why? certainly nobody was dominating with Pit back then so why change it? because it was bad game design and it was too effective.

allowing pit to jump after getting hit out of glide takes away from the risk of using it as a recovery option. Pit has 4 jumps, most of the time he can make it back with jumps + up-b alone.

glide is an extra tool which if executed correctly allows you to quickly grab the ledge, get back onstage much faster or even counter with a surprise attack. there needs to be a bit more of a risk factor is all i'm saying.

He beat M2K, didnt he? c;

And im not saying someone wont one day find some unstoppably good technique with Pit, but blindly trying to nerf Pit without having any REAL statistics isnt the way to go. If the time comes and tournys start seeing Pit dominate for whatever reason, THEN they can look into it. Who knows, maybe Olimar is secretly the answer to everything but no one has unlocked that potential yet? :D

Besides, Its nice for every character top have their "thing". Pit has incredibly recovery, just let him have this, its not harming anyone for now.

 

[Juushichi]

I also know a few PMBR members.

I don't quite disagree w/ OP, though my view does not speak for the rest of the PMBR though.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Besides, Its nice for every character top have their "thing". Pit has incredibly recovery, just let him have this, its not harming anyone for now.

OP listen to this man, he is completely right!

 

[cmart]

just a few? the pmbr should let you out the dungeon more often

jokes aside, were u involved with Pit's development at some point or did u pick him up as a char?
if so, mind sharing thoughts on his current recovery?

allowing him to jump after getting hit out of glide just seems too lenient due to the fact that 1. he can jump out of glide to avoid getting hit in the first place and 2. he can attack out of glide with any aerial to avoid getting hit.

I've been Pit's principal designer for every release he's been in.

Glide was designed to be a strong recovery tool - on the level of Jiggz/Peach recovery options. I don't personally feel it's too lenient or needs more risk, but as always am interested and open to whatever feedback the community has to give.

 

[foxygrandpa]

As long as pit can be easily killed at relatively low percents, it makes sense that he has n above average recovery. He's definitely one of the best characters if you ask me, but I don't think its solely based on his recovery. He's fine the way he is, as is charizard.

 

[Pika_thunder]

I've been Pit's principal designer for every release he's been in.

Glide was designed to be a strong recovery tool - on the level of Jiggz/Peach recovery options. I don't personally feel it's too lenient or needs more risk, but as always am interested and open to whatever feedback the community has to give.

You sir, have done a marvelous job!

 

[kaizo13]

I've been Pit's principal designer for every release he's been in.

Glide was designed to be a strong recovery tool - on the level of Jiggz/Peach recovery options. I don't personally feel it's too lenient or needs more risk, but as always am interested and open to whatever feedback the community has to give.

thanks, i appreciate the response. i guess we'll know for sure as more data/feedback is collected.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Pit's recovery isn't too good.

The fact that Charizard's glide burns his jumps, however, is sloppy and inconsistent. I don't get it.

 

[Ace55]

Zards recovery is fine. Pit and many characters in PM have recoveries that are a bit over the top imo. It's not a huge deal though and don't really expect it to change anymore.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's the inconsistency of the situation that gets me confused though. So Zard's glides burn his jumps ... but Pit's don't? From Zard's perspective, as well as people edgeguarding gliders (Of which there are three: Pit Zard and MK) only Pit retains jumps after using his glide move.

 

[Ace55]

It's the inconsistency of the situation that gets me confused though. So Zard's glides burn his jumps ... but Pit's don't? From Zard's perspective, as well as people edgeguarding gliders (Of which there are three: Pit Zard and MK) only Pit retains jumps after using his glide move.

Pit is also the only one who can cancel his glide with pretty much anything. His glide has always been the best because it was meant to be a prominent move for him. For Zard and MK it's just gravy.

 

[Phan7om]

Would i get attacked if I said that I think Pit's recovery would be perfect if his glide only went a set shorter distance (like pikas) but still kept the same properties.

 

[Pika_thunder]

This thread is so stupid. No changes are needed, now stop b****ing!

 

[batistabus]

How about that ftilt? A character that combos that hard doesn't need a kill move like that.

As for the rest of Pit, it's hard to say. The only players that are having success with him are godlike (Armada, Zero), which is probably a good sign.

 

[Mischief]

This is odd, it seems to a lot of people think whatever currently exists is perfectly balanced. Was PM made by god who had a divine vision of what was perfectly sensible and fair for all characters? This is not to say that Pit needs a change, that's up for argument. However I don't think we should just throw away the idea of further balancing the game and assume that its "perfect the way it is."

I personally think Pit has too many easy options in a lot of places. Individually they're fine but put together it makes Pit a monster. Perhaps a nerf would be worth it but I still think PM needs more time.

 

[Une]

HA! I play against a Mewtwo player. There is nothing that any character could possibly do in terms of recovery that could beat the absolute brain-cancer inducing *********** of Mewtwo's teleport.

You could say that after playing against Mewtwo so much I am prepared for anything. Marvel 3? I've played against Mewtwo. Hokuto No Ken? I've played against ****ing Mewtwo.

 

[Pika_thunder]

This is odd, it seems to a lot of people think whatever currently exists is perfectly balanced. Was PM made by god who had a divine vision of what was perfectly sensible and fair for all characters? This is not to say that Pit needs a change, that's up for argument. However I don't think we should just throw away the idea of further balancing the game and assume that its "perfect the way it is."

I personally think Pit has too many easy options in a lot of places. Individually they're fine but put together it makes Pit a monster. Perhaps a nerf would be worth it but I still think PM needs more time.

No, Fox and falco's existence proves there is not yet perfect balence. Pit is perfect the way he is, he is balenced. There are other things that aren't good now, but pit ain't one of 'em.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Pit's recovery is good, though he can get zoned out/juggled as he's recovering, and his Up B can be edgeguarded even when sweetspotted and even when its wall teched, it still puts you in a bad spot.

 

[kaizo13]

Pit's recovery is good, though he can get zoned out/juggled as he's recovering, and his Up B can be edgeguarded even when sweetspotted and even when its wall teched, it still puts you in a bad spot.

yes, but pit has plenty of options to avoid getting hit while recovering...more so than necessary.

if you are knocked off-stage, you should be at a disadvantage.
if you get hit out of glide, you should be in a bad position for allowing it to happen when you had the opportunity of jumping out glide or attacking out of glide to avoid getting hit.

think about it this way ZeRo...
compare it to how getting hit out of your second jump works. Characters with 2 jumps usually end up in a really bad position when caught double jumping right? so why risk using it??
well, because it can be used offensively as a mixup to find an opening in your opponents defense. big risk, big reward.

same concept should be applied to glide, it is a very good recovery tool....but when caught off guard, it should have notable consequences. big risk, big reward.

you're an amazing pit player ZeRo, i hope you can at least somewhat see what i'm trying to get at

 

[G13_Flux]

i do agree somewhat with the OP. I wouldnt say anything major is needed, and it might not be a bad idea to give it time either to let everyones opinions develop more. I can say this though, both peach and jiggs have amazing recoveries, but have lots of other issues they need to deal with onstage. I think the balance of pits onstage performance to his offstage performance is definitely a must when considering if he needs balance changes. He is a very fast character, has some disjoint, has an amazing projectile, and lots of combo tools. He contains some decent kill moves on stage as well as an incredible offstage gimp game.

As far as his weaknesses go.. pits light. and thats really his only weakness i see atm. I wouldnt say hes exactly overpowered, but hes certainly solidified AT LEAST at the top of the high tier, possibly even in top along with the best of them. I think some minor tone downs wouldnt be unjust, maybe just to vary pits grab game so its not dthrow > auto combo (thats something i think is a little absurd). If its going to be like that, then at least shorten his grab range to CF status or something. I think im absolutely for the glide using up pits jumps as well. I think he should be able to use his up B afterwards, but the prescence of glide/ 4 jumps/up B three way mix ups might be a tad over the top. For someone with the speed, comboability, and onstage game that he has, there arent any other characters like that. peach jiggs mewtwo and kriby (4 contenders easily for best recovery) certainly dont have the onstage game that pit does.

Like i said nothing major is needed, but I think pit would still be high tier easily if something was done to vary his grab game, and if his recovery options were slightly toned down. Otherwise, keep his insane recovery, but make slight tweaks to his onstage game (again, minor).

 

[TSM ZeRo]

yes, but pit has plenty of options to avoid getting hit while recovering...more so than necessary.

if you are knocked off-stage, you should be at a disadvantage.
if you get hit out of glide, you should be in a bad position for allowing it to happen when you had the opportunity of jumping out glide or attacking out of glide to avoid getting hit.

think about it this way ZeRo...
compare it to how getting hit out of your second jump works. Characters with 2 jumps usually end up in a really bad position when caught double jumping right? so why risk using it??
well, because it can be used offensively as a mixup to find an opening in your opponents defense. big risk, big reward.

same concept should be applied to glide, it is a very good recovery tool....but when caught off guard, it should have notable consequences. big risk, big reward.

you're an amazing pit player ZeRo, i hope you can at least somewhat see what i'm trying to get at

Oh his recovery is very good, just not invencible/Mewtwo style. He's very edgeguardable. I've been edgeguarded all over the place lol

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I've been Pit's principal designer for every release he's been in.

Glide was designed to be a strong recovery tool - on the level of Jiggz/Peach recovery options. I don't personally feel it's too lenient or needs more risk, but as always am interested and open to whatever feedback the community has to give.

I've never liked Pit's Up+B myself, but my biggest complaint is his Down+B. Are there any plans to look into improving it? Perhaps reducing the endlag as he puts it away?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just make it Jump-Cancellable

Also a hitbox as it comes out. Not one that lasts super long but comes out quickly. Like ... before frame 2.

And maybe it could have only low knockback and work as a very nice combo tool in addition to its current utility as a pretty good gimping tool.

I think that might make it a good move

 

[666blaziken]

For me, I think pit could use 3 nerfs that don't affect his playstyle, but make him more risky.
First of all, his glide is just fine. It could be like charizard's and metaknight's in that it can only be used once in the air (before landing), but I am fine with it being jump cancelled as long as MK and Charizard also get these buffs. The real issue (i feel) is that he has too many jumps. 4 jumps and a glide that can be cancelled seems like overkill. So maybe remove 1 or 2 jumps from pit. He can still edgeguard and do the wall of pain, he just gets punished for messing it up. The last nerf his that his down throw could be changed. It has a chain grab on the spacies, and even with none spacies, he can combo easy after down throw. This makes him both like shiek and like puff combined. But I respect what PMBR does, and if they keep pit the way he is, I can always use sonic or pikachu as my perferred counterpick, as they both have pretty good recoveries.

 

[Pika_thunder]

He can still edgeguard and do the wall of pain

No, he can't.

With your stupid changes pit would be a completely different character, a significantly worse one. If those changes were made I would drop him as my secondary/ main and I'm sure others would too.

Pit is fine how he is people, deal with it.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

No, he can't.

With your stupid changes pit would be a completely different character, a significantly worse one. If those changes were made I would drop him as my secondary/ main and I'm sure others would too.

Pit is fine how he is people, deal with it.

This.
As a matter of fact, I switched to Wolf from Pit because I still think Pit doesn't have that "complete" feel that characters like Mario, Mewtwo, and Ivysaur have.
If we're going to start nerfing characters, Pit's pretty far down on the list.
That said, if we're going to start buffing characters, giving 'Zard and MK better glide mechanics more similar to Pit's (which I think was the OP's true beef,) would be a good start.

 

[Vixen]

As a pit main - His recovery isn't as good as you might think.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

As a pit main - His recovery isn't as good as you might think.

Agreed. Laterally, it's fine (even great by some standards,) but vertically, it's pretty trash.