Planking Info (G&W Added)

[DMG]

This is brilliant. Good Job DMG!

I've got to get a good video of lightstep planking and the associated frame data to add to this already impressive thread. Its something I've been incredibly hesitant to post about, but w/e the time has clearly come ;p

Thanks. Any additional frame data concerning planking would be useful, and I would definitely be vocally grateful for anything additional.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Aside from what BPC is trying to say (Which those rules he's trying to bring up would be very hard to keep up with) It'd be a problem because then people would start running from MK instead of fighting hm. Next thing you know, Jiggs is the MK slayer.

If we're going to make surgical rules to make MK viable (AKA not banned) why not make surgical rules to make anyone else viable? I want to be able to play ganon in tournaments!

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Aside from what BPC is trying to say (Which those rules he's trying to bring up would be very hard to keep up with) It'd be a problem because then people would start running from MK instead of fighting hm. Next thing you know, Jiggs is the MK slayer.

I once thought this would be an interesting idea, but I've sorta changed my opinion after thinking about it more, as there is one really huge problem that stems from this rule idea.

The problem with is that it also means that nobody will ever approach MK again. By putting this rule into play, Meta Knight's defense game becomes completely and utterly impossible to implement because there is absolutely no incentive to ever consider approaching him if you are just going to win regardless as long as time runs out. While some may argue it forces Meta Knight to utilize his already incredible offensive game and his extreme resistances to stalling due to his stellar mobility, I don't believe this really is enough reasoning to offset the extreme amount of stupidity present in a match in which one opponent must never approach and essentially turns MK matches into a really, really stupid game of cat and mouse.

The idea is there, though and might work out however if tweaked a little bit, such as maybe if time runs out while MK is on the same stock and within 50% of his opponent, he'd lose, or possibly just same-stock so as to simply reduce the overall effectiveness of MK's camping and dissuade people from using it in many situations.

In all honesty, I'd much prefer a slew of surgical bans to limit a character rather than banning him outright.

These comments are true. Hmmmm. I'm not sure what to do about that. It's not like one comment was going to fix the problem anyways, haha :-D.

Multiple rules would be interesting, but I see the same issue that you both have brought up. If you say "time out within 50% on the same stock loses" then the other player will still be motivated to run when they have a lead.

Granted, I personally think it'll be tough to run inescapably from MK forever. But I do know there are people who can deal with his aggression pretty well (i.e. punishing approaches). And under this kind of rule, MK would be doing all the approaching through the whole match in an effort to finish.

Ergh. As anti-ban as I am, and as much as I agree with wanting surgical fixes, I don't see one :-(.

-Tuen

 

[Veril]

Thanks. Any additional frame data concerning planking would be useful, and I would definitely be vocally grateful for anything additional.

I'd be glad to help with this. Its a great project and definitely something that can really help the community. I've got a lot of school work and B+ stuff that has to get done, but I've got a few things that you may not be aware of which I'll post once I have the exact frame breakdown of up-air lightstepping and the inv. duration for that vs. normal planking.

 

[kackamee]

If we're going to make surgical rules to make MK viable (AKA not banned) why not make surgical rules to make anyone else viable? I want to be able to play ganon in tournaments!

Go ahead and play Ganon. He doesn't need to be fixed because well, he isn't broken. I hope you don't think your going to win without a secondary though. The thing is every chracter has something that can be exploited about them (except MK) Which is why the need for secondary characters to come in is there. By making MK less cheap/broken he will be able to be counterpicked. Then that counterpick will have a counter pick of it's own. So if you want to play Ganon, I'd suggest you host a tourney and use those "surgical" rules to make MK not as good as he is now.

Ergh. As anti-ban as I am, and as much as I agree with wanting surgical fixes, I don't see one :-(.

-Tuen

There are many of them, it's just no one has really tried them yet. Except for maybe Texas (they have had the only notable MK banned tourney) No one has ever really expiremented with the possibilities.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

There are many of them, it's just no one has really tried them yet. Except for maybe Texas (they have had the only notable MK banned tourney) No one has ever really expiremented with the possibilities.

I would go experiment with them, but the community here doesn't seem to have an issue with it (the NW). Especially here at Oregon State. Maybe I'll try planking it up at the next smash night this thursday... ha ha.

Either way, I'm going to talk to my friends about this and see what we can come up with!

-Tuen

 

[OverLade]

Wow, I'm ashamed that Im the last person to see this thread. Epic read, and it contains everything you explained. Can't wait for the GaW and Pit sections.

DMG too good!!!!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Go ahead and play Ganon. He doesn't need to be fixed because well, he isn't broken. I hope you don't think your going to win without a secondary though. The thing is every chracter has something that can be exploited about them (except MK) Which is why the need for secondary characters to come in is there. By making MK less cheap/broken he will be able to be counterpicked. Then that counterpick will have a counter pick of it's own. So if you want to play Ganon, I'd suggest you host a tourney and use those "surgical" rules to make MK not as good as he is now.

Well, he's about as unviable as MK without surgical rules. Slightly less so, but only slightly. Are you understanding what I'm getting at? We have to nerf MK with a surgical rule, he is BROKEN. Ganon is broken too, but on the other end of the spectrum.

 

[rathy Aro]

Great thread.

I'm wondering how many frames can MK plank for perfectly effectively if he can only grab the edge 50 times. Just to look at a very simple case (ICs spaming iceblocks over the edge). The MK is going to have to use dimensional cape with his planking to avoid the ice blocks. 27 frames after letting go of the stage MK can do dimensional cape, 26 frames later the invincibility on it ends and he should be holding onto the edge now. That's 51 frames. 51*49=2499. 2550/60=41.65. In this case if MK planks perfectly he can only do so for 42 seconds while staying below 50 ledge grabs in this particular situation. There are other more realistic cases, but I'm too lazy to explore all of them. =/

Not sure if I understand everything perfectly so feel free to correct anything I got wrong.

 

[Kitamerby]

These comments are true. Hmmmm. I'm not sure what to do about that. It's not like one comment was going to fix the problem anyways, haha :-D.

Multiple rules would be interesting, but I see the same issue that you both have brought up. If you say "time out within 50% on the same stock loses" then the other player will still be motivated to run when they have a lead.

Granted, I personally think it'll be tough to run inescapably from MK forever. But I do know there are people who can deal with his aggression pretty well (i.e. punishing approaches). And under this kind of rule, MK would be doing all the approaching through the whole match in an effort to finish.

Ergh. As anti-ban as I am, and as much as I agree with wanting surgical fixes, I don't see one :-(.

-Tuen

The problem is not so much running from MK, as the fact remains that MK has hands down the best offensive game in Brawl regardless, combined with the fact that it is pretty hard to outright stall against him outside of planking (anything involving the underside of the stage or staying far offstage is still reasonably within reach), but rather that it might be too much of a kick in the pants for MK mains to completely deprive them of his entire defensive game. With an implementation such as this, it keeps MK for being who he is for the most part, while only really outright forcing MK to play aggressive on the final stock, and by outright eliminating his ability to use planking as a desperate measure during the last stock. At the same time, it still allows MK to utilize his standard defensive game for the entire rest of the game, as you can never be sure early on whether or not the match will need to be called on time. This also by extension limits the effectiveness of planking as well, as in order to actually utilize planking in the first place, he will have to make sure that the match ends as a 2-stock. <<


Wow, I totally hijacked this thread. Sorry, DMG.

 

[theunabletable]

whoa now, 25 to 30 is far too low. Let's take an assumption here, Marth is fighting DDD, what DDD loves to do in this matchup is keep Marth pinned down on the edge, build up damage, and explot Marth's trouble of getting back on stage against D3 (but he doens't chase him off stage). Now, in this matchup, should things for some time go as the D3 has planned, Marth will probably, and naturally be, over the 25 ledge grab limit. We can also bring up the many other situations in matches where this is likely to happen, where a character is trying to get back on stage with no viable way and keeps getting pushed back to the edge.

By limiting and putting a number on it, you are not banning it directly, but banning something that is involved with it since you can not ban it directly.

Except I'm talking about a LGL that applies solely to MK as a way to stop his stalling.

How is causing Falco, Diddy and Snake artificially boosted in their rankings b/c they have an amazing on stage game but lousy off stage game, but b/c of the LGL, characters like Gdubs are artificially hurt b/c they excel off stage and not totally on stage(although he isn't totally invincible like MK) fine?

How is causing Marth to be artificially boosted due to no MKs fair?

Have you ever even played a Meta Knight?

hint: going offstage is not something you want to do, unless you're playing, that's right, Meta Knight.

You're not going offstage to do what I'm talking about. Why would you sit there and allow MK to just hold on to the ledge without letting go, even when he doesn't have invincibility frames until he falls off automatically.

THAT is NOT planking.

Masky, I wish it was this simple. The problem is defining planking.

I agree. A ledge grab limit applying to MK solely for the purpose of stopping his planking that we can't otherwise define solves this, I think.

If so, now whenever they attempt these actions while maybe not being invincible or being more "beatable", then technically you are DQing them for using a good strategy, and not for stalling.

Meh something needs to be done about it, and I think any MK would rather choose to only be allowed to grab the ledge 20 times instead of having a character that WILL be banned.

You're entering pretty uncharted territory for a video game there. Why are we putting several rules in place specifically to limit MK (for techniques that haven't really been put to the test in tournament fully), when we could put in 50 other rules to bring the bottom tier up to par? We could have the perfectly balanced game!

Because looking at the data that DMG provided this is STALLING according to the SBR definition, but we have no way to really stop planking without a ledge grab limit.

A ledge grab limit would just be a way to enforce an already made rule.

And we should play with Punch Time XD

Tell me this: who will be the best character in the game if MK is banned?

Marth maybe? Doesn't he have good matchups against both Diddy and Snake?

It's unfair to the players who play only MK (like M2K who said he'd quit if MK got banned) to outright ban MK when an incredibly easy to enforce rule stops his stalling that we can't otherwise define, and it's unnecesary.

Regardless, what about an MK only rule which states that if a match times out, MK loses?

I'd learn Wario JUST for the sole purpose of running away from MK the whole match without even attempting to make any contact or keep any sort of lead.

Oh and hey Tuen

Well, he's about as unviable as MK without surgical rules. Slightly less so, but only slightly. Are you understanding what I'm getting at? We have to nerf MK with a surgical rule, he is BROKEN. Ganon is broken too, but on the other end of the spectrum.

A ledge grab limit is just there to enforce a rule we already have. It isn't surgical, it's a means actually enforcing our rules instead of having a completely useless "no stalling" rule when planking, according to DMGs data, fits the SBR definition.

Banning MK when there is an easily enforced rule that stops something that is, according to the data, ALREADY AGAINST THE RULES, is completely unnecesary.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

he didn't sweet spot, but, I know that song, but from where ****it.

TvC thunder storm Megaman level.

On note with the thread I can't think of a good way to ban this without MK finding a way around the rule.

I think the problem is MK more so than the cast being able to do it.

 

[DMG]

Great thread.

I'm wondering how many frames can MK plank for perfectly effectively if he can only grab the edge 50 times. Just to look at a very simple case (ICs spaming iceblocks over the edge). The MK is going to have to use dimensional cape with his planking to avoid the ice blocks. 27 frames after letting go of the stage MK can do dimensional cape, 26 frames later the invincibility on it ends and he should be holding onto the edge now. That's 51 frames. 51*49=2499. 2550/60=41.65. In this case if MK planks perfectly he can only do so for 42 seconds while staying below 50 ledge grabs in this particular situation. There are other more realistic cases, but I'm too lazy to explore all of them. =/

Not sure if I understand everything perfectly so feel free to correct anything I got wrong.

MK being forced to use Dimensional Cape to avoid the Ice Blocks? Naw. MK can "swat" them away with aerials (even Uair) all day. Even perfectly desynched Ice Blocks cannot hit MK if he swats them away and then grabs the edge. If you are only using Ice blocks, technically MK can drop down, wait for a long time, and then go back for the edge. So, you could easily triple or quadruple or even further increase the time between edge grabs before you reach 50 edge grabs.

A ledge grab limit is just there to enforce a rule we already have. It isn't surgical, it's a means actually enforcing our rules instead of having a completely useless "no stalling" rule when planking, according to DMGs data, fits the SBR definition.

Banning MK when there is an easily enforced rule that stops something that is, according to the data, ALREADY AGAINST THE RULES, is completely unnecesary.

The problem is that you can also plank while not fitting no stalling rule. If you ban the "correct" planking that is unbeatable, is MK allowed to use planking/edge camping that is technically beatable? If you ban planking period because of its potential to stall, then it also applies to characters who can plank but have beatable versions (like Pit or G&W), Unless you are making a MK specific rule that he specifically cannot plank. Even then, why are other characters allowed to plank, and MK isn't allowed to use beatable planking?

A no Stalling rule encompassing Planking is also fairly subjective. How many times is he allowed to do it? Do you know for a fact that the actions he did lead to the unbeatable planking or not? Who's opinion or criteria do we go off of? Do you have more than 1 person make this decision?

 

[Steeler]

If we're going to make surgical rules to make MK viable (AKA not banned) why not make surgical rules to make anyone else viable? I want to be able to play ganon in tournaments!

did someone say balanced brawl?

 

[da K.I.D.]

what are mks options against pikachu curving the ledge with thunder jolts and ddd dairing over him?

mk cant use aerials to clank with thunder jolts and the time that it takes for them to curve the edge, depending on stage, can possibly be more than the ledge invincibility time.

ddds dair out ranges mks up air, and can be timed to out last the end of his invincibility

just want to make sure this is as air tight as possible.

 

[Katana_koden]

Uh hit lag from certain attacks will carry over, right? such as traded hits. If Ike dtilts during his 2nd uair, the hit lag will carry over past his invincibility and spike him.

 

[Laem]

A no Stalling rule encompassing Planking is also fairly subjective. How many times is he allowed to do it? Do you know for a fact that the actions he did lead to the unbeatable planking or not? Who's opinion or criteria do we go off of? Do you have more than 1 person make this decision?

I have found the solution. We ban democracy.

 

[6Mizu]

You **** Texans are too good.lol

Great Read! And Good Job!

EDIT: I just realized how good this actually is.....Stick this!

 

[DMG]

Kid: MK could either drop+jump up and shuttle loop, Ledge Jump at the right time (he only has one frame of vulnerability near the end) and hit you (Since Dedede's Dair will always end at the same time barring him hitting the ground with it, it's not that hard to get the timing down on when you need to jump), and MK can also simply wait below the Dair vertically and punish Dedede before he can recover completely from his Dair cooldown. MK also technically can drop+jump and Tornado and be invincible for a little bit, and he can also Down B onto the stage.

I'll get more in depth about Thunderjolts in a bit.

 

[6Mizu]

The purpose of this thread is to show how planking operates, concerning frame data, and also list some of the general positive/negative tools or qualities each character has. I'm sure many of you have seen, either personally or online, matches where planking or edge camping was utilized, and have wondered what those actions and reactions involving planking look like frame-wise. So I have decided to make a thread showing frame data concerning ledge play, and options that other members of the cast have (or don't have) when it comes to planking. I believe this thread is LONG overdue, and honestly I am somewhat saddened that it took the community this long to REALLY try to look and see how something such as planking works on a frame basis, but I digress. I am glad that finally some effort has been put into shedding light on this subject, and understanding better how planking as a whole operates.





Starting out this thread, I will focus first and foremost on planking concerning MK for two main reasons. The first, is that I think understanding his planking is much more important than for characters like Pit or G&W. Since he is the most common character in tournament who can use it, and generally considered the best user of planking period (On a Frame Basis, MK is clearly and the undisputed King of Planking. The only thing that would hold him back from that title overall, is the effect of moves like G&W's Uair. Even still, I think that he is easily the best at planking even taking into consideration things like that.), I feel that its better for me to cover him first, and then focus on G&W/Pit/others. The second reason, is that while I have a ton of frame data info on those characters, I am missing a few key parts concerning edge play for them, and I have not 100% validated the frame data I have for those characters with other members of the community. Once I do, I shall add them in here so the community can see how other good planking members do or function.



Here is some general frame data you should know when we discuss edge play. Thank you Hotgarbage and Kprime for helping me gather and verify this.



- Ledge invincibility: 1-46 (This is correct for most of the cast. There are some exceptions to this like Pikachu and Tethers)
- Minimum Time on Ledge: 24 frames (The 25th frame you can do stuff like ledge attack, ledge jump, ledge roll, etc. You cannot drop down from the edge on this frame) (This is the Same for everyone, only a few exceptions to this)
- You cannot buffer a ledge drop, hence frame 25 being unusable for ledge drop.
- Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21 (This is for everyone)



-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.



Quarter Circle edge snaps (basically fastest edge snap possible for these characters onstage. This assumes that you are AS close to the edge onstage as possible. Being even SLIGHTLY off can negatively impact these numbers and add frames to your edge snap). The number is when they first grab the edge.

MK: 6
Snake: 9
Wario: 9
Pika: 6
Mario: 9
Peach: 11
Falco: 8
Diddy: 8
Kirby: 9
Lucario: 10
G&W: 7
ZSS: 9
DK: 8
Popo: 9
Nana: 13
Marth: 8
Toon Link: 7







~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


So with that, let's start the discussion on MK:

Meta Knight is an extremely good, if not the best, planker in Brawl. He has amazing tools to fight for the ledge, or to keep people away while staying close to the edge. His planking frame-wise is clearly the strongest out there.

Pros:

- MK has very good aerials frame-wise and hitbox-wise for combating people who are trying to stop planking
- MK has multiple jumps, meaning that he has quite a bit of control over how things can or will pan out
- MK has multiple "paths" he can take to regrab the edge, or to get back onstage
- MK can combine grabbing the edge, with his Down B, to act similar to Shiek's planking (where she was techncially invulnerable the entire time)

Cons:

- MK has fairly low horizontal air speed. This con is almost exclusively applicable to lesser players, or those who are inexperienced on planking. This is a non issue for the MK if he truly understands how to plank.
-Ladies and Gentlemen, that is IT. There are no other cons that MK has when planking. Any flaw imaginable concerning MK, is completely mitigated or removed when he planks.



If you want an in depth look at all of MK's frame data, this thread can satisfy you: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614






Alright, let's run through the planking process step by step, looking at frame data for each side, and then meshing them together.

MK gets the lead, and goes to the edge. From this point, he is invincible for 46 frames total. Out of that, he can first move off the edge on Frame 26. From here, assuming he gets off the edge as soon as possible, he has 21 frames of invincibility (realistically, you could hope for 18+ invincibility frames unless you get the timing down very well for when you can first move off the edge) From here, he can use his Uair, which first hits on Frame 2. Uair lasts until frame 13. You are allowed to input something on frame 14. This means that you can Uair again, while still being invincible. Shortly after the second Uair, if you are next to the edge, you can immediately grab it.


Here's that situation, not jumbled together and broken down step by step:

I will run this situation from frames 1-46


- MK first grabs the edge. He is stuck on the edge for 25 frames.
- MK first moves off the edge, and inputs Uair ( Frame 27 ). From what I know, you cannot have the ledge drop and an aerial on the same frame. So technically you drop on Frame 26, but cannot input Uair until frame 27). This Uair first comes out on frame 2 ( Frame 28), and the complete move ends on Frame 13 ( Frame 39). Frame 14 (Frame 40) you are allowed to input another input.
- MK can now Uair again. (Frame 41 it hits). Then that Uair ends (Frame 52).


So in short, MK's first Uair is completely invincible. His second one is invincible until about midway through, after the hitbox has come out.



Now let's look at what the defender onstage can do about this:

This is for MK's Uair

- Optimal shield advantage: -10 (Meaning that if MK hits your shield with Uair, and you respond perfectly to it with something like an Upb OOS, Usmash OOS, or Shield Grab, that this is your frame advantage for those actions ONLY. This means that if you have a really good Upb OOS, you can attempt to use it. The problem obviously is that MK is offstage, and by the time you use your Upb OOS he's probably too low for you to hit, or he is invincible.)
- Optimal shield drop advantage: -3 (Meaning that like the above, if you get hit and drop your shield perfectly, you have a 3 frame advantage on MK. You can run into trouble however because while you have 3 frames of advantage, it's not enough to guarantee you a edge snap from onstage. Even the characters who snap to the edge fastest are TOO slow.)



Basically, this means that onstage if you are DEAD PERFECTLY AS FAR NEXT TO THE EDGE AS POSSIBLE ONSTAGE, and you regularly shield his Uair, that you basically cannot punish MK for Uairing, nor can you try to steal the edge from him. His Uair is so fast that for any character in the game, that if you spotdodge his Uair there is a VERY strong chance he can simply Uair you again either before you can move or while you are vulnerable in your spotdodge frames. So spotdodging to try and get through... is not an option either really. Uair is also faster than airdodges, and MK can usually Uair MULTIPLE TIMES on your single airdodge while you are unable to move.


Here's a list of things that make it "gay":

- The edge snap data I provided near the top is ONLY for characters when they are PERFECTLY as far onto the edge as possible from onstage. Now, as you can probably guess, what happens if you shield MK's Uair? You scoot back slightly. Not that far, but it still happens. This tiny amount of distance that you slide backwards negatively impacts how long it takes you to edge snap from onstage. If something would originally take you 6 frames, now it will take 8-9. The further back you are, the more of a disadvantage you have. This means that, while it ALREADY being impossible framewise to take the edge from MK after the first Uair, that subsequent Uairs make it even further impossible as it slides you back further and further. Also, if you are not squarely lined up on the edge to start with, then it's as if MK had already hit your shield a few times, and it becomes "more impossible" to steal the edge or punish him.

- Since MK is invincible for so long, he can technically drop from the edge, use Down B (even after a buffered Double Jump), and basically you cannot hit him until he gets out of his Down B. If you take the edge from him, he can move it onstage. If you do not take the edge from him, he gets to grab the edge with COMPLETE invincibility.

- About taking the edge from MK: Assuming you somehow DO manage to take the edge from MK (he makes a mistake basically), he has a plethora of options to deal with it. The GAYEST IMO is that as long as he is at the right height, if you take the edge from him, he can simply Tornado/Reverse Shuttle Loop/Double Jump safely back onstage. This means that MK can either make the situation where YOU are now on the edge, and he is onstage trying to trap you, or he still gets onstage safely and THEN DECIDES TO RUN FOR THE OTHER EDGE! This makes grabbing the edge against MK almost completely pointless, as he can usually just safely make it to the other edge or back onstage safely while you are now the one on the edge and he is safe onstage.

- Projectiles are GARBAGE at stopping MK from planking. I will go down a fairly long list of projectiles, and why they are not effective at stopping MK from planking.

Grenades? You can destroy them with invincible attacks. You can just stay invincible whenever they would explode (they run on a timer that is set, and you have set invincibility for 46 frames. It's not hard to mesh together your invincibility time frame with the grenade explosion.). You can catch them and throw them, or catch them and grab the edge when they would explode. Grenades, if made to stop mid air because of Snake, can only fall straight down vertically. You can move left or right to avoid it, besides just staying invincible or blowing it up yourself lol. Basically, grenades are actually bad at stopping planking. Overwhelmingly, Grenades have a psychological effect on people more than an actual problem that is hard to overcome. Once you realize just HOW long you stay invincible, and your options against grenades, they become close to useless.

Bananas? Bananas thrown forwards at you arc forward and down. Hugging the edge closely, or dropping down just a tad makes it impossible for Bananas thrown in this fashion from hitting you. Not only that, but you could also be an A-Hole and basically jump into the banana while invincible, and make it either fall onstage or offstage or catch it. You can catch Bananas thrown at you from any angle. If thrown or dropped straight down, they obviously follow the same trajectory straight vertical down. Not hard to either catch it, avoid it, or just LOL as you are invincible and it does nothing. Bananas also don't do very much damage when they hit you as you are airborne. Kinda like getting hit by a grenade itself, not the explosion but the actual item. If you have a fairly solid lead, you can take 10, 20, even 30 Bananas to the face and it doesn't matter.

Peanuts? Helllll no. You must be on Crack to this this is a good solution to stopping planking. Peanuts are extremely easy to break or catch. They arc in a certain path depending on how long they charge it for (the less they charge, the easier it is for them to get it to arc downwards). You can catch/Break/Avoid/be invincible REALLY EASY against this projectile. EVEN IF HE CATCHES A PEANUT OF HIS OWN, AND TOSSES IT AT YOU IN ANY DIRECTION, IT'S A TERRIBLE PROJECTILE TO STOP PLANKING AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED IF YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD OPTION. ACTUALLY, I MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO BE YOUR FRIEND ANYMORE FRANKLY IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE THAT! They are extremely slow projectiles that... I shouldn't have to say this guys, but Peanuts SUCK at stopping MK from planking in almost every aspect. Seriously.

Lasers? Who allows you to live everyday? GET OUTTA HERE! YOU'RE GARBAGE IF YOU EVEN SUGGEST LASERS!

Bike Tires? Psh. I love Wario man, but Tires are garbage at stopping MK from planking. Tires would be OK, if you could readily summon them at will without having to take the time to pull out your bike and break it. Then, the tire acts basically like a Banana. Arcs when thrown forward, drops straight down if tossed down or Z dropped, easy to catch/avoid, staying invincible and taking the hit on purpose destroys it unfortunately. Like tires are bad option against planking. You shouldn't get hit by this.

Ice Blocks? Actually an OK options against Planking. This one requires you to actually kind of pay attention. The biggest problem with Ice Blocks, besides having a super linear path, is that you can "reflect" them back if you hit them. You can hit them even with a non invincible aerial, and those now will not hit you. They also are only even decent if you have both IC's. If you only have Popo, you can kiss this option goodbye as it sucks on its own. Ice Blocks would be better if the IC's had less cooldown lag on them.

Blizzard? You can use your invincible Down B from the edge to regrab it through Blizzard safely, EVEN if they desynch and alternate it at a good rate. The edge snap "circle" or area that is available to MK is large enough for you to regrab the edge normally while still avoiding Blizzard.

Fire Breath? Same as Blizzard for the most part. The gayest thing is that because you have a lot of jumps, if you feel like it you can actually just wait out the fire breath and still grab the edge safely. Now they have to wait for it to recharge a bit before using it. Besides the fact that MK already is pretty **** against Bowser and Charizard onstage, you basically can reasonably avoid streams of fire coming at you. You can also try using high priority Side B into the edge and a lot of times it will clank a LOT with each Fire Breath hit. Because of the way it works, if the edge has a lip, you can "camp" the lip and be safe. You can also resort to using the Down B invincible edge grabbing.





So folks... here's a TL:DR for those of you who felt like not reading it all like a BAD, BAD PERSON!

TL:DR

- MK's first and second Uairs are invincible.
-You cannot punish, or grab the edge, from MK if you are onstage and shield his Uair.
- If you powershield his Uair, the only thing you are guaranteed is to be able to steal the edge from him assuming your fingers are quick enough.
- If you steal the edge from him, he is guaranteed safety either through using tornado to get back onstage, Double Jumping back onstage, Reverse Shuttle Loop, etc.
- His multiple jumps dictates FULLY how things will pan out against every character in the game.
- Frame-wise, even MK in the ditto has a hard time punishing his copy from planking.
- Projectiles are not good at stopping planking. MK is invincible for too long unfortunately for them to be useful, or he simply has too many solid options against them that prevents them from being useful.
- Once the MK learns to fast fall his Uair at the correct time, any options you have against him are invalidated as far as punishment is concerned. The same thing applies when he learns the correct height to hover at while planking.
- From a technical perspective, his planking is unbeatable and "reasonably unbeatable" at the Human Level. I say that because it's slightly easier (although still technically impossible even under the human realm) to try and stop his planking when you factor in Human Limits. HOWEVER, the same applies to the defender. He, even when given the benefit of the doubt, cannot stop planking framewise. His job now becomes a lot harder to accomplish if he is off by even a TAD on his timing for his actions like shield drop, and edge snap/punishment attempt/powershield attempt.



So there you have it folks. MK's planking, concerning Frame Data, IS unstoppable on theoretical terms, and STILL unstoppable on realistic Human terms. Framewise, MK can either prevent you from grabbing the edge safely/before him, or if you do he can escape to safety and repeat the process with no risk. I know some people feel that "Oh well if you know what the MK wants to do, you can read him and stop it Dawg", but the frame data doesn't lie. Even if you know and react perfectly to what he wants to do, his planking is unbeatable concerning Frames.


SO NOW YOU KNOW! If you have Questions, go ahead and ask. If you have suggestions on how to improve stuff (Font Color, Font Size, maybe a table of Contents/quick summary at the top, etc). While I have provided a ton of info here, I may not have explained everything the best as possible, or encompassed every tid bit as possible. Which means it's your job to ask away so I can cover EVERY EVERY thing. Like I said earlier, I will do this with G&W/Pit/potentially a few others to demonstrate how their planking works. But for now, just MK.[/SIze]

You **** Texans are too good.lol

Great Read! And Good Job!

EDIT: I just realized how good this actually is.....Stick this!

After completely reading this I learned two things. And they are:
1. MK needs BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. This needs sticky!

I finally agree with the fact that MK needs ban.

And again, Amazing thread DMG. I may have jizzed a little after reading it. (not because MK is so good.....but because you did an amazing job...at this thread).

 

[DMG]

Dude wtf why did you quote my entire post, you could have just quoted my post and replaced everything with "Cool OMGWTFBBQIAMSUPERMANDUNDUNDUNDUN! stuff".

Also this isn't a ban MK, this is a Planking Info thread. G&W and Pit soon to come, Pikachu I might cover as well.

 

[Clai]

So, DMG, this Warlock Punch out of grab release on Wario, is it legit? Please say you're not pulling my leg.

In all seriousness, though, I can't wait to see the frame data for Pit/G&W's planking. If MK is indeed the only character that can remain invincible by planking, then... I'll call for banning MK, and I thought I'd never, ever say this.

 

[6Mizu]

After completely reading this I learned two things. And they are:
1. MK needs BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. This needs sticky!

I finally agree with the fact that MK needs ban.

And again, Amazing thread DMG. I may have jizzed a little after reading it. (not because MK is so good.....but because you did an amazing job...at this thread).

Dude wtf why did you quote my entire post, you could have just quoted my post and replaced everything with "Cool OMGWTFBBQIAMSUPERMANDUNDUNDUNDUN! stuff".

Also this isn't a ban MK, this is a Planking Info thread. G&W and Pit soon to come, Pikachu I might cover as well.

I know it's not about banning MK. Also, TY for the advice next time I'll just do it like this......"Cool OMGWTFBBQIAMSUPERMANDUNDUNDUNDUN! stuff". lol

Can't wait for Pit/G&W's data on planking.

Overall you got some amazing info in this thread.

 

[B!squick]

What about Bowser's planking? :O

 

[Nanaki]

^^or (lol) Mario's?

 

[DMG]

I do not have everything compiled nicely for G&W just yet, however here is some info concerning him (assuming this is correct coming out of his frame data thread on his boards).

Nair:

1-6 Startup
7-10 Hitbox out
12-15 Hitbox out
17-20 Hitbox out
22-25 Hitbox out
26-34 Cooldown

Briefly, what this means is that even if G&W does a Nair as fast as possible, he loses invincibility cleanly before the last hit comes out. This leaves him very vulnerable, especially considering that a lot of times G&W players like to drop down first (which eats up invincibility frames) a decent height, and then rise with a Nair. This means that depending on where they are when they decide to try a rising Nair, you can expect their remaining invincibility to basically shrink in half or further.

Uair:

1-5 Startup
6-7 Hitbox out
8-19
20-21 Hitbox out
22-39 Aerial cooldown


Here G&W loses invincibility right around the second hit (if he isn't frame perfect, he loses it before the second hitbox). If he wants to drop down a bit to use his Uair, as you can probably imagine his remaining invincibility window shrinks. G&W's Uair is unique, in that it has a Windbox covering a fairly large area. However, the cooldown lag he suffers GREATLY hampers his ability to abuse the Windbox the best he can.

The last thing to cover is his Upb, which will take me a second to look at and confirm all the info concerning it, and then I will show how his planking "situation" meshes together with the opponent's options to fight it. I'll write up a thing for him, and put it below MK's Info.

Mario/Bowser? Sure if there is enough demand to cover those characters lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't bother with Mario's. It has obvious holes in it.

 

[tuestresfat]

I honestly don't get why you guys don't just remove the timer if you don't want to deal with planking.

It's the only reason people plank, and it does nothing but guarantees the match will end in 8mins. Will the match last much longer (like say, 20-30mins) if the timer was removed? Obviously not. How many matches actually last the full 8mins unless a player was intentionally trying to run the timer? Answer: very very very few. At most you'll see a game last 10mins but this too will be very rare.

People plank because it's safer and it's easier to win that way. But they can't win if there is no timer! They HAVE TO fight if they want to win. Players will quickly realize planking does nothing beneficial for them especially if they are using metaknight. MK has no projectiles. If I were using pikachu I would just spam thunder jolts until MK stop planking. 1. there's no timer so as far as I'm concerned he can plank all he wants, 2. he can't hurt me because I'm not in range of getting hit by his invincible uairs, 3. he may be invincible from my tjolt spamming but eventually he'll realize spamming uairs on the edge does nothing to help him.

 

[DMG]

You obviously have never met or seen me play, have you? People like me don't care if we have to play for 30 minutes to win a single game. If a spirit has to be CRUSHED in the process, so be it. It's the nature of the game, and a timer is completely and absolutely necessary. Good game... good game...

 

[Nanaki]

No timer in a heavily defensive game would make for exceedingly long tournaments.

People can and will camp their ***** off for 20 minutes or more to win if the opportunity is available. Just look at this thread's OP - he'd Brinstar Snake for an hour and giggle like a schoolgirl the entire time.

I don't want to see DMG murdered, so I don't want to see Brawl without a timer.

Edit - I was totally ninja'd by the man himself, and by a full 2 minutes!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I honestly don't get why you guys don't just remove the timer if you don't want to deal with planking.

It's the only reason people plank, and it does nothing but guarantees the match will end in 8mins. Will the match last much longer (like say, 20-30mins) if the timer was removed? Obviously not. How many matches actually last the full 8mins unless a player was intentionally trying to run the timer? Answer: very very very few. At most you'll see a game last 10mins but this too will be very rare.

People plank because it's safer and it's easier to win that way. But they can't win if there is no timer! They HAVE TO fight if they want to win. Players will quickly realize planking does nothing beneficial for them especially if they are using metaknight. MK has no projectiles. If I were using pikachu I would just spam thunder jolts until MK stop planking. 1. there's no timer so as far as I'm concerned he can plank all he wants, 2. he can't hurt me because I'm not in range of getting hit by his invincible uairs, 3. he may be invincible from my tjolt spamming but eventually he'll realize spamming uairs on the edge does nothing to help him.

So... in an incredibly defensive game... you really wanna remove the incentive to approach, really?


I promise, if this every happens, my matches will take a minimium of 4 hours. This is not even abnormal, on high stakes competative gaming, people have shown they're willing to do worse.


I am extremely patient, I am totally willing to play gay. For the love of god, give me an incentive to actually do damage or my opponent an incentive to damage me.

 

[Asdioh]

How is causing Marth to be artificially boosted due to no MKs fair?

why do you keep saying this everywhere? Do you really think people want MK banned just so Marth can get better? lol

I'm getting tired of people talking about planking like it's the only reason MK is bannable. sigh

What about Bowser's planking? :O

^^or (lol) Mario's?

Either of those could be edgehogged, and then Mario/Bowser would either not make it back to the stage, or they would land on the stage with a laggy up B and be punished, why even bother asking :[

 

[B!squick]

You can't edgehog Fortress. I'm sorry, but you just can't. Even if you get the ledge, Fortress' hitboxes out last ledge grabbed invincibility so he'll just steal it back from you.

 

[HeroMystic]

Either of those could be edgehogged, and then Mario/Bowser would either not make it back to the stage, or they would land on the stage with a laggy up B and be punished, why even bother asking :[

Not entirely. Mario's U-air goes through the stage to avoid getting suddenly edgehogged, and Mario can also use Cape Refresh (Cape Stall on the ledge) as a mix-up. He can also just simply ledge-drop and Up-B straight upwards (yes, Mario can do that) to punish people who attempt to edgehog.

Mario's "planking" is bad not because of edgehog, but because there's a huge amount of time where he's not invincible and therefore vulnerable for attack.

 

[DMG]

Actually it depends (talking about Bowser). They are invincible for 46 frames, which doesn't include additional invincibility they can obtain for doing an action like Ledge Stand up/Ledge Jump/Ledge Roll. While his Upb lasts long, I don't know if you can safely cover that much of a frame window. I will look into it.

 

[J4pu]

I'd also like to see marth's planking data
I seem to recall hearing that he can play the total invincibility game too by using his UpB for it's initial invincibility as soon as the ledge-invincibility runs out. It does sound like it requires more frame-precise actions than MK though.

You can't edgehog Fortress. I'm sorry, but you just can't. Even if you get the ledge, Fortress' hitboxes out last ledge grabbed invincibility so he'll just steal it back from you.

Does fortress retain invincibility throughout the whole attack or is it just the start-up
If it's just in the start-up or even half of its length, it won't be unbeatable since they can ledge-drop aerial you while they still have ledge invincibility.
Also, if they are at a high percent I'm sure they could use the ledge invincibility combined with the slow get-up animation to gimp fortress
EDIT- DMG ninja'd me with the invinc frame data, so yeah, the aerial won't work but I think at a high percent the opponent may be able to gimp
if this look into planking also gets bowser banned, just lol
although I would miss watching Vex's bowser

 

[theunabletable]

If you ban the "correct" planking that is unbeatable, is MK allowed to use planking/edge camping that is technically beatable? If you ban planking period because of its potential to stall, then it also applies to characters who can plank but have beatable versions (like Pit or G&W), Unless you are making a MK specific rule that he specifically cannot plank. Even then, why are other characters allowed to plank, and MK isn't allowed to use beatable planking?

Can you think of any other way to ban MKs unbeatable planking?

If-not, this is a far better solution than a full ban, as I guarantee any MK main would prefer to have their beatable and unbeatable planking banned, instead of the entire character.

It's just an all around better solution.

 

[Remzi]

I'd also like to see marth's planking data
I seem to recall hearing that he can play the total invincibility game too by using his UpB for it's initial invincibility as soon as the ledge-invincibility runs out. It does sound like it requires more frame-precise actions than MK though.

Except with Marth, you can grab the ledge between ledge grabs and he is suddenly in a horrible position.

Anyone who gets successfully planked by a Marth does NOT know the matchup, or at least that aspect of it. Marth's ledge game is actually pretty limited.

 

[J4pu]

well, to be honest the un-ending invincibility method with MK puts him in a bad position too, any character can edge-hog > punish if they do it the same time he is starting his DC
it's mainly for avoiding projectiles easily was my understanding
it's MK's other option, the 2 Uairs > regrab that don't allow a character to even grab the edge and fully show he is broken in this aspect (in addition to his multiple jumps)

I guess i can just add the frames for marth's stuff up myself, it isn't that hard

but yeah, Marth would get punished way harder

 

[Remzi]

well, to be honest the un-ending invincibility method with MK puts him in a bad position too, any character can edge-hog > punish if they do it the same time he is starting his DC
it's mainly for avoiding projectiles easily was my understanding
it's MK's other option, the 2 Uairs > regrab that don't allow a character to even grab the edge and fully show he is broken in this aspect (in addition to his multiple jumps)

I guess i can just add the frames for marth's stuff up myself, it isn't that hard

but yeah, Marth would get punished way harder

Yea, I never said that MK's other forms of planking were perfect, but this one most definitely is, and Marth can't even dream of planking at a similar level.