Planking Info (G&W Added)

[memphischains]

http://tinyurl.com/yhs5mx2

 

[Itakio]

I think you should add for G&W cons that he has very limited options after blowing his double jump and nairing. If he goes slightly above the stage so that he can grab the ledge without up B-ing, he puts himself at risk of being outspaced since his nair doesn't have that amazing of horizontal range. If he keeps himself completely under the stage while nairing, i.e. forcing himself to up B, he only has a few options as for when to up B with regard to the frame advantage of an edge-hogger.

Basically, in the pro/con summary, just cover the fact that G&W has limited "paths" when compared to MK for whom you put multiple paths as a pro.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Also, you should totally add the pit planking data.

And two attacks come to mind to potentially stop this... link/G&W dair. Any idea how that works out?

 

[Judo777]

concerning snake u have one major problem. Snake does not have the means to attack MK when he is offstage in any decent manner what so ever. Yea you can set up like a falling nikita as a grenade blows up as u detonate c4! but then MK can just...... get away from the edge..........and then regrab as snake watches onstage and does nothing about it cause whats he gonna do drop a bair on u? if he ffs a bair im pretty sure he dies and and MKs aerials are all better than bair. Oh and if snake takes all this elaborate time to set up this ingenius series of bomb traps that will make it difficult for MK, MK can just say screw it and fly to other side. Now snake can try and set it up again.......

 

[Kitamerby]

Also, you should totally add the pit planking data.

And two attacks come to mind to potentially stop this... link/G&W dair. Any idea how that works out?

The audio of this describes the situation well.

Or for a visual description,this.

Basically they aren't coming back up after the dair lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lolwut Kit?

 

[Kitamerby]

Lolwut Kit?

They're gonna drop like a rock and explode.

 

[1048576]

well in melee characters didn't float like fairies, so one mistake likely meant a stock. the only characters I know of who could plank (while fully invincible) were sheik, fox, falco, and M2 in melee,
M2 didn't have a hitbox on the UpB, easy edge-hog
Sheik's hitbox came out late enough that I don't think it could stop characters from edge-hogging.
fox and falco just had very difficult ones that would be amazingly difficult to keep going for 8 minutes, although they do seem to be applicable in comparison to the current situation (ledge drop shine upB stall) it puts out a fast hit box and then regrabs the edge while retaining invincibility. of course in this case, one mistake of misplacing the UpB likely meant a stock whereas with MK it means some amount of damage and is less likely to happen due to the technical difficulty difference between the methods.

I have seen plank plank a match with sheik vs an ICs before though. one of the worst melee matches Ive ever watched (from a spectator's viewpoint)

Actually, Fox's fire's hitbox doesn't start until like frame 27 or something, and Falco's doesn't come out until he actually starts moving with it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

actually, Fox's Fire's Hitbox Doesn't Start Until Like Frame 27 Or Something, and Falco's Doesn't Come Out Until He Actually Starts Moving With It.

Wronggggg /10

 

[Kitamerby]

Wronggggg /10

You realize he's talking about Melee Falco, right? The one without a hitbox on startup?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I know, I've been following this thread, but as far as I've played against Falco in melee it does have a hitbox on startup. I could be pretty darn wrong here though x.x'

PS it's not like japu's first line in his post is talking about melee.

 

[Kitamerby]

I know, I've been following this thread, but as far as I've played against Falco in melee it does have a hitbox on startup. I could be pretty darn wrong here though x.x'

PS it's not like japu's first line in his post is talking about melee.

You're wrong.

Fire Fox = Hitbox on startup(multi-hit, flame), huge distance, pretty low kill power.

Fire Bird = No hitbox on startup, extremely short distance, HUGE kill power.

Also, L2Context


But it didn't matter. Fire Fox/Bird was able to snap even before the hitbox came out. The actual hitbox in question for that was the shine hitbox. <<

 

[gamesuxcard]

no love for tjolts? ;_:

 

[demonictoonlink]

^
This

I'm not really willing to go through the whole thread...Do thunder jolts>MK planking?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So far, we've seen that that is a no.

 

[gamesuxcard]

I'm pretty sure on a stage with the right amount of wall a tjolt will go down and hit a mk thats not paying attention and timing their planks funny, however, it's pretty specific to a mk that's not paying attention. good mks can use their invincibility all dai.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

They can Cape to avoid them entirely. They have 100% invincibility from cape + ledge drop.

 

[1048576]

I just want to say, arguing is a lot easier when you know from the onset that 99% of people don't accept logos, ethos, or pathos. You can basically just skip being reasonable and just start spouting off snappy, vitriolic, sound bytes, Republican-style.

cwutididthar?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Remember guys...you're talking about a hypothetical MK here. It's all hypothetical. There a NO MKs that perfect plank for entire matches. Vids.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Remember guys...you're talking about a hypothetical MK here. It's all hypothetical. There a NO MKs that perfect IDC for entire matches. Vids.

Fix'd.
10obviouscomparison

 

[demonictoonlink]

You are a republican, huh?

I'm not saying this shouldn't be banned or really anything like that. Just addressing when people say, "Well a good MK would do this" it isn't true. We don't have examples.

 

[DMG]

Well I think it's fair to assume that neither player would be playing perfectly. Hence, I don't care blah blah blah aspdka;kldakal farble grable

 

[J4pu]

Actually, Fox's fire's hitbox doesn't start until like frame 27 or something, and Falco's doesn't come out until he actually starts moving with it.

I believe I said ledgedrop > SHINE > UpB stall
the shine would be what produced the quick hitbox, and the firebird/fox doesn't need to start moving before a regrab could occur, if done perfectly I believe it would be possible to ledge drop frame 1, shine frame 2, DJ frame 3, allow yourself to rise frame 4-8 (I don't know exactly how long would be necessary, just an educated guess), UpB frame 5-9 (depending on previous), regrab ~ <8 frames after starting UpB (once again, I don't know the frame data).

The difference would be the difficulty in doing the 2 scenarios due to brawl having a buffer as well as shine having much shorter range than MK's Uair (although it can hit somebody standing close enough on the stage)

 

[Mew2King]

DMG is lying

you are not invincible not even close from ledge drop + cape. When you reappear, several frames before you grab the ledge, you can be hit, and it's not that hard to do either.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@ numbers.
their too busy getting on stage and ****** the other character anyway.

also theres plenty of people that can cape to the ledge over and over again with out losing invincibility.

just like in melee, pretty much anybody can use shieks up b to have complete invincibility on the edge, the reason they dont is because most people would rather fight an opponent than get dqd from a match for stalling. so they only do it until the other character backs off, and give them a free pass back on to the stage.

 

[TheManaLord]

And it's pretty easy for a competent player to hog sheiks stalling and then punish her recovery lag.

in melee

 

[da K.I.D.]

in brawl, you cant immediately drop from the ledge. You are stuck to it for a third of a second, which really hampers your ability to punish mks landing lag on stage.

 

[1048576]

Okay, those of you who have never played melee seriously (daKID, lookin' at you) just stop talking about it. You are ignorant and wrong. Planking in melee does not work. You can grab the ledge from everyone, and then most of the cast has a lot of land lag after their recovery move, so you can punish them. Believe me, melee players play to win too.

 

[TheManaLord]

Kid is actually good in melée, probably way better than you.

He's to some degree correct. Properly timed shino stalling can be incredibly difficult to get through and will result in damage and being comboed. In doubles it is more broken creating a wall at the edge and you are easily pinned in 2 v 1. Perfectly executed saijumping is also very hard to beat.

But it's not bad at all compared to brawl planking.

 

[Dr. Grandpa]

o-o-o-o-o-o-o

 

[Luigi player]

DMG is lying

you are not invincible not even close from ledge drop + cape. When you reappear, several frames before you grab the ledge, you can be hit, and it's not that hard to do either.

This.

At least my results from testing were the same... maybe I just wasn't frame perfect or something though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Okay, those of you who have never played melee seriously (daKID, lookin' at you) just stop talking about it. You are ignorant and wrong. Planking in melee does not work. You can grab the ledge from everyone, and then most of the cast has a lot of land lag after their recovery move, so you can punish them. Believe me, melee players play to win too.

whether planking in melee 'works' is completely dependant on your definition of working.

What I was refering to is when shiek already has the ledge and is up b stalling. You can attempt to wavedash - edgehog her, but its pretty strict to time. and should you mess up the timing, you get hurt pretty bad. same goes for fox and falco on the ledge.

The easier and safer option is to just back off and let them come back on stage and fight them on equal ground. because if you arent pressuring them on the ledge, they have no reason to stay there.

planking in melee does not 'work' if your goal is to win the game by time out. But if your goal is to stay safe and not get killed and possibly make your opponent walk into an attack, then it 'works' pretty well...

also, Im ranked in my region in melee and I was playing the game last night, but thanks for assuming stuff.

 

[1048576]

Yeah, my bad for reading "I've never played Melee" from your posts

As far as Shino-stalling, I think we agree on most things anyway. But I think the timing isn't that bad, especially since you don't need to react to anything. Furthermore, if Sheik does get edgehogged, she's in for a world of hurt.

 

[Cirno]

I'd like to see some play testing if possible. Like friendly matches or something.

I have a hard time seeing anyone's planking as unbeatable, simply because you have to grab the ledge to gain invincibility frames.

If you're constantly repeating any type of process you're going to get caught if the character has the option to do so.

And if you're lying in wait to react to what you're opponent does, you're not invincible, leaving room for combination attacks that force you into predictable and therefore punishable behavior.(Ex: Thunder Jolt>Thunder)

I think it's pretty obvious planking as a strategy has it exploitable flaws when stages like Norfair and Brinstar cause problems.


In anycase some video showing the prowess of the technique in the hands of some characters would be much appreciated if possible.

Because even though forum goers love to debate and theory craft (lol well I might add too, if not overly personal and insulting at times...) theory=/=reality.

 

[overgamer]

In Theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. -A.E.

But planking seems really overpowered for MK, frame wise...
I still do agree with Cirno, we need some kind of proof of how broken it is.
You never know when you suddently do a little mistake and fail a step in the edgehog process,
and it just fails everything. Videos, please!

 

[Turbo Ether]

DMG is lying

you are not invincible not even close from ledge drop + cape. When you reappear, several frames before you grab the ledge, you can be hit, and it's not that hard to do either.

Yup, this is true.

It's still difficult to punish though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

DMG is lying

you are not invincible not even close from ledge drop + cape. When you reappear, several frames before you grab the ledge, you can be hit, and it's not that hard to do either.

**** I feel like a tool now for having read DMG's post and having the **** get owned by a sentence =/.

 

[Cirno]

**** I feel like a tool now for having read DMG's post and having the **** get owned by a sentence =/.

Even if it is, M2K, I wouldn't just take him for his word.
Always test it out yourself.

In my own experience, it depends on the timing. Going in and coming out MK can be hit, and for all the effort and predictability it brings doing it on the edge, MK would be better off just jumping away and back onto the ledge.

 

[DMG]

The only thing incorrect was the Down B part. I was given or found the wrong info regarding when he can first grab the edge with Down B. He's not vulnerable for very long at the end (He's still fully invincible until the end when he wants to grab the edge), but it's still there.

 

[hotgarbage]

Just briefly looked into this. Looks like MK is vulnerable for exactly one frame when done correctly. I'll double check tomorrow when I'm not all derpy.