Pokedex Entry 11: Ike

[Onxy]

Like I said, play Steeler. He has a far better connection than me - so we can get more accurate matchups going - and probably a better player.

But really, I'm done with Wifi. It's proven to me over and over that it's just garbage, and worthless. It might as well not exist - it's that bad. I guess that's why I never see Elliot anymore online - smart guy. Whoever has me on it might as well take me off, I'm done with it.

 

[Ussi]

I mentioned only things that aren't lag dependent >_> Whether there was lag or not what i said can be true without lag.

 

[Steeler]

well, new jersey is a little far away, but it doesn't hurt to at least try.

i'd rather play arturo, we are only two states away. ALSO are you going to hobo 11 arturo? it looks like i may be heading down there myself.

 

[Ussi]

Ah i'm done brawling >_> I need to do my homework.

 

[Steeler]

ah, that's cool. anyone else up for a brawl? i'm going to head out to a friend's place soon anyway, infernorage who posted earlier, so perhaps i could get some offline experience in.

 

[Onxy]

I mentioned only things that aren't lag dependent >_> Whether there was lag or not what i said can be true without lag.

I know, but IDK if QD does. So I was mentioning that you should play Steeler for more info, 'cause I'm done with Wifi.

 

[Bleeper Hit]

My thoughts on the matchup. I haven't played any truly great Ike's but this is what I've gotten.

Squirt vs. Ike: I feel like Squirtle is being sold short on this one. Ike does kill him quick (like so much of the cast) and outranges him. Squirt will need to mix it up to get inside Ike's zone but once in can take control with his quick moves. Squirtle doesn't have much trouble dealing with Ike once he gets him offstage.

Ivy vs. Ike: Most good points have been brought up, such as ivy being outranged and having razor leaf and whatnot. Don't feel like I need to say too much.

Zard vs. Ike: Pretty even: Ike may outpower and outrange zard, but our boy's heavy, strong, and has the range to compete. Flamethrower works well here, and zard beats him offstage.

 

[Onxy]

Ivy and Charizard do very well. Just because I performed really poorly at using their advantages (bad lag), doesn't mean that PT can't. Like I said, quick attacks really mess with Ike, and moreso if they are range like Ivy.

Zard's Rocksmash didn't come too useful except for punishing bad approaches. Flamethrower is for of a Zard approach rather than spacing. Wing attack can shut off Ike's aerial approach, or if you block the Fair/Nair, you can either shieldgrab, or run to do it. Ike's jab is really bothersome, and it's a move you would think Snake would have. It was too difficult for me to avoid in those matches because I couldn't space well at all because of the condition of the room. Charizard's grab game seriously messes up Ike. IDK about Charizard's tilts, I literally didn't even use any of them ONCE.

The room was okay at first, then one match the room just suddenly lagged soooo hard, that it was like watching 300. After that match, every other match was horrible, IDK what happend.

Do you remember that one match that was lagging so hard that I ran from you with Squirtle, then did my "This is very laggy" taunt on Final Destination? Did you experience that lag? Was it only me?

 

[Ussi]

Oh yea i experienced that lag. After you did that taunt the lag went away lol..well the really bad lag at least.

Charizard's down throw didn't kill Ike at 180% fresh at the center of FD though lool. And don't act like lag didn't mess me up too >_< I just saw it affect you more.

 

[Onxy]

Lag messes with us all, lol. I can show you a video of how well I could play with out lag. I'm sure you would own me here and there with out lag (breaking out even), but after that match, it was terrible. We went about even for about 6 matches? After that one, it got worse, and I lost all of them.

 

[Ussi]

yea, its a shame =\ i understand how you feel about lag too. its a mentally thing too. You start believing lag is against you and it keeps going against you then. I've had the same feelings.

 

[Kirk]

I'll play anyone who wants to. Just post or PM or w/e.

 

[Kinzer]

Basically what every other Wifi-(W)Ike's been saying, if you feel like challenging me if you are somewhere in California or any state next to NV hit me up. (Slthough if you have a good connection I could undoubtly even play people from Europe and Australia, oh yeah, I have one powerful connection.)

 

[Charizard92]

sorry Kinzer, I live on the opposite side of the continent and have almost no connection (I need to fix it somehow).

 

[Onxy]

IMO, even if I had won every match, I still think the matchups are:
4:6 for Squirtle, 6:4 got Ivy Ivysaur, 5.5:4.5 to 6:4 for Charizard

Ike is really underrated, and I kinda find it funny how everyone thinks their character has a 7:3 on Ike. But great grab ranges, and ranged melee attacks in conjunction can give Ike serious trouble, not to mention that almost all of Ivy/Charizard's attacks are ranged, and speedy. Charizard doesn't have much trouble killing Ike, but Ivy sure as hell does. I had Ike up to near 200% before I killed him. That's a great reason why it's not higher than a 6:4. Also to add on, who ever said that Ike has a 7:3 on Ivy was on drugs. I've played this matchup before a few times against other great players (minus the lag *shoots Orion*) and I have to say Ivy does the best here.

Squirtle doesn't have too much on Ike except his speedy attacks. I would say that the matchup is 3:7, but I need to play more. Next time someone fights a good Ike, please use Squirtle mostly for input.

 

[Ussi]

I'll say this:

Charizard does have his things to wreck Ike but Ike has things to wreck Charizard so I'd put it more even, at 5.5 cause of the fire breath and grabs. But rock smash is post laggy when missed so that is something to take note off since Ike can ftilt it after the main hitbox is gone (otherwise they clash) Oh and the QD i said before i just realized I just hit you before RS's hitbox came out. Fair out ranges charizard. Ike survives Charizard's down throw at 180% at the center of FD(fresh too) when DI'ed properly. Charizard's Usmash does well against Ike's air game, but you trade it as a kill move if you use it in the beginning. Charizard i believe can be Dair combo'ed though at 0% to 50% (dair > dair > something) (something that can't happen in lag) So I'd just say 5/5 but it's still a battle for both of them. (And really I Don't care for numbers, make it w/e you want)

AND maxed spaced fair going backwards can't be shield grabbed by Ivysaur. Ivysaur can do some stuff to an Ike wanting to get back on stage, vine whip is something to watch out for and Bullet seed too. Also Ike has to learn to gimp Ivysaur (tethers in general) to effectively do well.

Your best bet is to start Ivysaur and switch charizard to kill. then switch Squirtle (damage till death and repeat once you're Ivysaur again or hopefully be able to kill with Ivysaur after Squirtle dies)


oh and Onxy, I loved how you did vine Whip and it hit me and not grabbed the ledge but i had SA frames from aether loool. (Does this mean you can't grab the ledge just because someone was just merely in the way of the ledge? Or you were too far away but able to hit me who was just next to the ledge)

 

[Onxy]

I'll say this:

Charizard does have his things to wreck Ike but Ike has things to wreck Charizard so I'd put it more even, at 5.5 cause of the fire breath and grabs. But rock smash is post laggy when missed so that is something to take note off since Ike can ftilt it after the main hitbox is gone (otherwise they clash) Oh and the QD i said before i just realized I just hit you before RS's hitbox came out. Fair out ranges charizard. Ike survives Charizard's down throw at 180% at the center of FD(fresh too) when DI'ed properly. Charizard's Usmash does well against Ike's air game, but you trade it as a kill move if you use it in the beginning. Charizard i believe can be Dair combo'ed though at 0% to 50% (dair > dair > something) (something that can't happen in lag) So I'd just say 5/5 but it's still a battle for both of them. (And really I Don't care for numbers, make it w/e you want)

AND maxed spaced fair going backwards can't be shield grabbed by Ivysaur. Ivysaur can do some stuff to an Ike wanting to get back on stage, vine whip is something to watch out for and Bullet seed too. Also Ike has to learn to gimp Ivysaur (tethers in general) to effectively do well.

Your best bet is to start Ivysaur and switch charizard to kill. then switch Squirtle (damage till death and repeat once you're Ivysaur again or hopefully be able to kill with Ivysaur after Squirtle dies)


oh and Onxy, I loved how you did vine Whip and it hit me and not grabbed the ledge but i had SA frames from aether loool. (Does this mean you can't grab the ledge just because someone was just merely in the way of the ledge? Or you were too far away but able to hit me who was just next to the ledge)

Well, I feel that Ivysaur has an advantage here, and you could grab a well spaced Fair. Not shield grab, but a running grab (you were vulnerable to it, I just couldn't do it.)

Don't ever jab cancel Ivy to anything. That will result in a Bullet Seed.

I feel Ivy has the advantage, Charizard has neutral to advantage, and Squirtle is flat out disadvantaged.

I know Ike has things to beat out Zard, but Zard is slightly stronger in critical areas (such as speed, and grabbing). Ike off stage is terrible for him because of things like Zard's flame, and grabbing. Where as, it's not as bad for Zard (still pretty bad though)

IDK, it's just what I think, and sorry for the poor performance in our matches (oh and if you thoughr I like to glide with Charizard, I only did it once INTENTIONALLY, lol!)

 

[Miles.]

Basically what every other Wifi-(W)Ike's been saying, if you feel like challenging me if you are somewhere in California or any state next to NV hit me up. (Slthough if you have a good connection I could undoubtly even play people from Europe and Australia, oh yeah, I have one powerful connection.)

I am from California lets play.

AIM me @ DddontTrip

and that goes from any Ike I would like to learn this match up.

Just message me on aim and lets trade codes.

mine is also to below my name.

 

[Ussi]

You said before you kept gliding when you didn't want too. I never saw any flame stopping me from recovering >_> Zard's kill moves are slow though, besides usmash but you need that to be fresh to kill at 110% I never even saw dsmash which i don't think is a bad move..is it? (Also while you couldn't use tilts, I couldn't bair [jump to high or bad timing] >_<)

Also You can be knocked away by just the first hit of Zard's usmash (Remember i fell out of it twice in a row) I'm thinking maybe DI-able then? (DI in the direction of the first hit maybe)

Ivy I'll give the advantage (Although I couldn't powershield razor leaf effectively due to lag) heck projectiles are harder to deal with in lag >_> Dash grab probably will grab Ike from a maxed spaced Fair but a standing grab won't ;o so maybe we might jab first ~~ Ike does have IASA frames to jab.

 

[Retro Gaming]

IMO, even if I had won every match, I still think the matchups are:
4:6 for Squirtle, 6:4 got Ivy Ivysaur, 5.5:4.5 to 6:4 for Charizard

I pretty much agree with this. Ivysaur and Charizard both do well, though. I don't think its neutral.

 

[Charizard92]

I agree with this too. Say, what's the verdict with Dedede (and how come we skipped several characters [ROB, Wario, Lucario, DK, Diddy, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit, Wolf, Toon Link, Zelda, Zamus, Bowser, Luigi, and Peach])?

 

[Onxy]

You said before you kept gliding when you didn't want too. I never saw any flame stopping me from recovering >_> Zard's kill moves are slow though, besides usmash but you need that to be fresh to kill at 110% I never even saw dsmash which i don't think is a bad move..is it? (Also while you couldn't use tilts, I couldn't bair [jump to high or bad timing] >_<)

Also You can be knocked away by just the first hit of Zard's usmash (Remember i fell out of it twice in a row) I'm thinking maybe DI-able then? (DI in the direction of the first hit maybe)

Ivy I'll give the advantage (Although I couldn't powershield razor leaf effectively due to lag) heck projectiles are harder to deal with in lag >_> Dash grab probably will grab Ike from a maxed spaced Fair but a standing grab won't ;o so maybe we might jab first ~~ Ike does have IASA frames to jab.

Usmash is only DI'able if I run and do it. I keep sliding, while you're off the hook.

I didn't bother using Flamethrower at the edge ever. I felt it was going to be punished during those games - but it does work.

Dtilt is a great kill move for Zard - it's rangy, and quick.

Dsmash is only good for opponents who like to stay on the ground - and you just weren't one of them >_<.

Ivy's grab is longer than Ike's jab, and Charizard's grab is slightly shorter, but he has the speed, and the needed range to grab you before you do it (I've done it already against you, but the other times were just slow, failed attempts at it because of the room condition).

I also couldn't Bair with Ivy, and that's essential to everything Ivy has.

 

[Miles.]

Basically what every other Wifi-(W)Ike's been saying, if you feel like challenging me if you are somewhere in California or any state next to NV hit me up. (Slthough if you have a good connection I could undoubtly even play people from Europe and Australia, oh yeah, I have one powerful connection.)

Lets play mang AIM me at DDDONTTRIP

or pm me aim works faster tho.

I am from cali we are close yay no lag.

 

[Ussi]

well flame does work from another PT i battled. With Ike I prefer to use my aerials if I'm on the ground, i'm jabbing. But Aether on the way down cancels the flame.

 

[Miles.]

well flame does work from another PT i battled. With Ike I prefer to use my aerials if I'm on the ground, i'm jabbing. But Aether on the way down cancels the flame.

yeah flame works well when i spaced it right.

 

[Onxy]

Goooooood IRL goooood , you have done well! Now kill Ike! And prove your loyalty to me, and together we can rule the PT board. Do it...kill him now.................Do it!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

OK, apparently my definition of range is different from everyone else's. My definition is every attack in general, including projectiles. In that sense, Ike has a pretty decent range due to the range of his attacks, but without a projectile, it is below some other peoples. However, we do agree on Squirtle.

Well Ike has QD so you could add range to that but it seems like a strange way to think of it.

here's something i want the ikes to comment on:

how does ike usually approach? spaced fairs are the only thing that i'm sure of, and both zard and ivy have the grab range to just shield it and then dashgrab ike as he lands, since there is a bit of lag time afterward. if pt is quick enough, ike shouldn't be able to retaliate...and even if he is a bit slow...what can ike do in that situation? jab? ivyzard will have their shield up and be able to grab right after.

so yeah, comment.

Well besides Fair Nair and Rars are good aerial approaches. In the ground it would probably be best to just dash and roll behind people to punish a move they are throwing out to keep Ike away or to wait for an opening and use a well spaced dash attack. QD is hardly used as an approach method since it lasts so long (45 frames) so you shouldn't see that to often.

I also Don't think you can grab Ike's Fair unless you PSed it because you get sent back a bit then again its just a thought I have. How ever after Ike's Fair is shielded if PT is to slow he can simply roll or side step the grab then start up with his jab follow ups.

well, new jersey is a little far away, but it doesn't hurt to at least try.

i'd rather play arturo, we are only two states away. ALSO are you going to hobo 11 arturo? it looks like i may be heading down there myself.

Yes I'm going to hobo 11 so I would rather fight you there to avoid lag johns. I'd also like to hold off my 3 cents on this match up till then because now that I think of it the PT's I've faced might not have been all that great.

 

[Charizard92]

Onxy, you do know that there are at least 4 other regulars (including myself) here and you can't take over any board, no matter how much you want it (or want to destroy it)

 

[Onxy]

Oh....realllllly? *blasts Charizard with lightning and watches Charizard fry*

*waits a little then stops, and watches Charizard screaming in pain*

*Blasts him with lightning again*

...

 

[Steeler]

lightning is not super effective against charizard in brawl so you FAIL onxy

failure

arturo i'll hit you up there, man. idk how we'll get in contact with each other but...yeah. it'd be awesome to play in person. offline>>>>>>>>>>>>online...although i'd still be up for a wifi match in case our connection is good.

edit, dashing and rolling behind the opponent is a terrible approach. zard can dsmash, which kills off the top in the...i'd say 120%ish range. zard can also sh bair, which when sweetspotted also has nice ko potential. ivysaur can bullet seed and make you eat 30%, or ftilt to rack up damage or eat through a bit of your shield. zard can also flamethrower ike as he dashes toward him. squirtle will probably be busy jumping around and getting in your face anyway so...yeah.

here's the problem i'm seeing with ike. correct me if i'm wrong, but this makes a lot of sense to me:

ike has a very predictable approach. ground-wise, ike cannot do ANYTHING but dash attack or "dash and roll" behind the opponent. his other attacks are just too slow. jab is nice, but how is ike going to safely get into jab range? shield canceled dash into jab can just be grabbed anyway. the range on the first two hits is pitiful by ike's standards. at that range, both zard and ivy have options to bat you away. or just grab. squirtle is mobile enough to just avoid it when he sees it coming.

aerially, ike does a bit better, although it's still predictable. full jump -> spaced fair is decent, but very predictable. there are ways to get around it. as soon as ike jumps, zard and ivy both can just dash forward a tad bit, shield, and wait to grab ike after the hitbox is gone. something squirtle can do is actually shellshift backward, and then grab with his boosted range to accomplish the same thing. or just water gun ike away, which is a lol option that would actually put ike in a vulnerable spot.

it's mostly the same story with bair and nair, except ike has to get a bit closer to space it, which puts him that much closer to a grab or another option. nair is lagless upon landing, so ike could jab right after...although zard and ivy still have an opportunity to grab ike, even slightly before he lands.

also, i don't think any of ike's options can outrange a nicely spaced flamethrower...and most of his good range options, like fair and ftilt, have too much startup lag anyway. dash attack would be interesting, ike has to time it so he hits before zard's flame comes out...and he'll be dashing right into the most dangerous part of the flame. if zard is using flamethrower to approach, he WILL short hop it and angle it downward, since his hop will prevent an aerial strike anyway, as the flamethrower is coming from above.

i think the biggest problem for ike here is ivyzard's grab ranges. true, fair outranges. but it's really predictable, and both pokes can get around that fact by shield cancel dashing, since ike's fair is both predictable and has some startup lag. squirtle is just so mobile that he can get out of the way and then follow up with a quick hit.

a correctly played pt will make approaching for ike a nightmare, and when that happens, ike will have to resort to playing more defensively. i don't think that's something ike wants to do, because he doesn't have that many options in that case.

 

[Onxy]

lightning is not super effective against charizard in brawl so you FAIL onxy

failure

arturo i'll hit you up there, man. idk how we'll get in contact with each other but...yeah. it'd be awesome to play in person. offline>>>>>>>>>>>>online.

Well..........you're a bigger failure.

 

[Ussi]

But doesn't Pikachu do good against Charizard o_o?

 

[Steeler]

yeah pika does kinda **** charizard. but not because he's super effective.

squirtle and ivysaur do alright.

 

[Ussi]

But its a good joke ;o and doesn't Squirtle get beat by Pikachu too? I have offline experience in Pikachu vs Squirtle too soo yea.

 

[Onxy]

Meh.. Squirtle isn't too bad against Pikachu, but again, he is the worst of the 3. IDK if PT even does that well against Pikachu. I've only fought one Pika, and I lost.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

edit, dashing and rolling behind the opponent is a terrible approach. zard can dsmash, which kills off the top in the...i'd say 120%ish range. zard can also sh bair, which when sweetspotted also has nice ko potential. ivysaur can bullet seed and make you eat 30%, or ftilt to rack up damage or eat through a bit of your shield. zard can also flamethrower ike as he dashes toward him. squirtle will probably be busy jumping around and getting in your face anyway so...yeah.
Well you obviously wouldn't be doing it when your at high percents because you would be on the defensive there. Also it would be used to get around what ever is keep Ike at bay. If there isn't anything bugging Ike I see no reason to do this.

here's the problem i'm seeing with ike. correct me if i'm wrong, but this makes a lot of sense to me:

ike has a very predictable approach. ground-wise, ike cannot do ANYTHING but dash attack or "dash and roll" behind the opponent. his other attacks are just too slow. jab is nice, but how is ike going to safely get into jab range? shield canceled dash into jab can just be grabbed anyway. the range on the first two hits is pitiful by ike's standards. at that range, both zard and ivy have options to bat you away. or just grab. squirtle is mobile enough to just avoid it when he sees it coming.
Well against PT I don't see any reason to approach except against Ivy.

aerially, ike does a bit better, although it's still predictable. full jump -> spaced fair is decent, but very predictable. there are ways to get around it. as soon as ike jumps, zard and ivy both can just dash forward a tad bit, shield, and wait to grab ike after the hitbox is gone. something squirtle can do is actually shellshift backward, and then grab with his boosted range to accomplish the same thing. or just water gun ike away, which is a lol option that would actually put ike in a vulnerable spot.

it's mostly the same story with bair and nair, except ike has to get a bit closer to space it, which puts him that much closer to a grab or another option. nair is lagless upon landing, so ike could jab right after...although zard and ivy still have an opportunity to grab ike, even slightly before he lands.
You can mix it up with SH and FF aerials as well. Bair is actually a very fast move so its also a lot hard to shield. I agree that Ike's approach is pretty bad but I still see nothing forcing me to approach. Hell projectiles better than Ivys don't always force me to approach. Dash attack would be used to punish what ever is keeping Ike at bay anyways its not just hey look someone standing in front of me how about I run towards them swinging a sword.

also, i don't think any of ike's options can outrange a nicely spaced flamethrower...and most of his good range options, like fair and ftilt, have too much startup lag anyway. dash attack would be interesting, ike has to time it so he hits before zard's flame comes out...and he'll be dashing right into the most dangerous part of the flame. if zard is using flamethrower to approach, he WILL short hop it and angle it downward, since his hop will prevent an aerial strike anyway, as the flamethrower is coming from above.
Not sure on this one but it might be possible to punish this with aether. Since your hopping around towards me I could foxtrot and time the SA frames to go trough the flames. At the very least I should be able to send you flying upwards.

i think the biggest problem for ike here is ivyzard's grab ranges. true, fair outranges. but it's really predictable, and both pokes can get around that fact by shield cancel dashing, since ike's fair is both predictable and has some startup lag. squirtle is just so mobile that he can get out of the way and then follow up with a quick hit.

a correctly played pt will make approaching for ike a nightmare, and when that happens, ike will have to resort to playing more defensively. i don't think that's something ike wants to do, because he doesn't have that many options in that case.

Playing defensively is awesome. Ike has a much better defensive game than offensive I thought someone would have mentioned that by now. Ike's Nair to jab combo can lead into nice 30% easily with out much trouble and its much easier to pull off while on the defense. Against charizard he has a 50% combo. There are actually a lot more options here because Ike is great at punishing with Jabs and even Fsmash.

You would be better off if Ike had to approach because then it would be a harder match up but since he doesn't you have to rethink your idea on this match up. I think it would actually be the main reason Squirtle does so bad against Ike.

 

[Onxy]

Squirtle is out ranged, and Ike is too powerful for Squirtle, not because he has to approach.

 

[Steeler]

ok, now i see what you were saying with the dash -> roll thing. only as a reaction to an attack. well, anyone can do that. :S in fact, pt is probably better at it than ike because his moves, on the whole, are more punishable with it than any of the pokes.

what's the range on aether's initial hits? this is something to look into. i don't think it'd be all that reliable against sh flamethrowers because it's kind of risky. i think it'd work if sh ft was starting to get predictable.

well, ivysaur forces ike to approach. in this case, ivysaur wins because ivysaur can counter all of ike's approaches. therefore, ivysaur has the advantage.

squirtle is just going to be all over the place on his approach, and his ground game is insanely quick. a lot of squirtle's attacks are as fast as or faster than ike's jab. very mobile too with shellshifting. a lot of characters have a tough time dealing with it. how is ike going to be able to handle it? he doesn't have that many options.

something i want to mention...water gunning an ike is effective because every bit of horizontal distance is INSANELY important to him.

charizard has a few options in rock smash, bair, and flamethrower. i'm really really tired right now so i'll continue later.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well from the sound of it Nair would pretty much cover against squirtles approach since it covers Ike's body 270 degrees. If squirtle tries so approach above Ike then theres aether, eruption, U tilt, U smash and some other stuff but I'm a bit tired too lol.

 

[Ryusuta]

No, Steeler's right. Squirtle's pokes, shellshift games, and aerials can all pretty much stuff Ike. Range is INCREDIBLY overrated in this game unless your name begins with M and ends with arth. I'd say Squirtle would go about 5:5 or 6:4 against Ike.