Things in
this color (plum) are subjective.
You have never been to a tournament or placed well, your argument is invalid.
I may be willing to listen after you get some skill, as well as stop trying to get the glorious master race of tournament players to play on this drivel.
Enjoy never being good.
Yeah, but that's like, just your opinion man.
sorry, but the air stage throws this off to the ban list along with temple and skyworld.
the air stage is just so far from fair its not even funny, yeah no-one in particualr is broken there but it completely changes gameplay and any kind of vertical k.o moves becomes too efficient and air planking becomes a legit tactic even for d3
You know what else makes vertical kill moves too good? The low ceiling on halberd. You know what makes them suck too much? The high ceiling on Jungle Japes. You know what all stages have in common? They affect how players interact through platform setup, ledge setup, hazards, transformations, and physics changes. The fact that the stage boost vertical kill moves slightly
is not only not a bannable offense, it is also incredibly temporary. If you think that
is a bannable offense, then I welcome you to pick a stage with the ideal vertical KO blastline, and ban every stage that has different KO %s.
Also, you say that air planking is a viable strategy even for chars like DDD... Yes, it becomes a solid defensive tactic of runaway. Which will work for 40 seconds, tops. Then the transformation is over and you go back to "Oh look I'm a fastfaller". And a camping tactic can be completely unbeatable for all we care;
if it's only possible for 30-100 seconds each round, then it is most definitely not broken. If you disagree with this, then use the same logic and ban castle siege and pokemon stadium 1, and any other stage with strong temporary camping.
good work for all the research though, but there is a distinct lack of numerical evidense that makes it all jsut look like one big opinionated article
What numerical evidence? What Would you require? Kill %s on air, or what? There's not exactly much numerical evidence to get on a stage like this.
This is the main flaw in everything you've said. Changing the gameplay at a physics level is bad. The game is Brawl, and the physics work a specific way. When you mess up the way people move, the way then run, the speed at which they fall, you are changing the game. It is no longer Brawl.
Of course it is. Now, if we were hacking the game to make it randomly change its physics, I'd say that you're right. But the fact is, you can't argue that something is "no longer brawl" when it is in the game. Might as well argue that the gameplay on temple hyrule, Final Destination, and Battlefield are no longer brawl because it isn't interrupted by movements or hazards. Seriously. Count the stages with no stage movement or interaction (Battlefield, Final Destination, Temple Hyrule, and a few that are absolutely borderline like Yoshi's Island: Melee), then count the stages with temporary or permanent physics changes (PS2, Pirate Ship, Summit). It comes out to about the same.
The fact is, if it's in the game, you can't say it's no longer brawl. Is brawl with items no longer brawl? Of course not, items are a part of the game. Is brawl without items still brawl? Of course it is, brawl lets us choose to turn them on or off. Is brawl on Summit, where you not only slip around, but you have water, a OHKO hazard, and stupidly strong vertical physics boost, still brawl? Yes,
of course it is! It's not balanced or fair, sure, but it's still brawl. Now PS2's transformations, which
are balanced and fair? Oh yeah. Not only a part of brawl, but a
completely reasonable part of competitive brawl
I feel no need to discuss whether or not any character has an advantage or disadvantage when the main issue is that the stage changes Brawl to something else.
Again, it does not! It changes brawl to something else as much as any other stage does!
One of the main reasons we still play Brawl in tournaments and not Brawl+ is because of the physics changes. One of the main reasons there are arguments about which is better between melee and brawl is the physics. And PS2 is one of those stages where the whole metagame is changed by the stage.
...and brawl expects us to deal with it, as evidenced by the fact that it is in the game.
You can use the same argument about items. It is a MAJOR influence on the game, rather than the minor influence of the legal stages. Starter stages especially are
not supposed to "add another layer of gameplay".
Yeah, but that's like, just your opinion man. Why shouldn't they? What is the purpose of the starter list?
Isn't the goal of separating certain stages from others to strike from to find the most fair stage for the matchup without taking way too much time? And if not, what's the reasonable reason for your feeling (that stages should not add another layer of gameplay)?
I feel like you missed some things about why PS2 is ban worthy. I used to think that this could be a legit CP and was proven otherwise. This is all unbiased
On the ice stage characters can slide around and charge up safe smashes (eg. MK's Dsmash and Fsmash). It also messes up characters by disrupting their spacing and heavily increasing shield push making tons of things that shouldn't be safe on block be as such. This also gives ICs a solid advantage because the ice doesn't effect their movement and doesn't mess them up at all.
All right first of all, it only messes up players. It does NOT mess up characters. It enhances characters' options, it helps them space things safely, makes more things safe, etc.
The whole thing about the ice stage is that it only hurts you if you have no idea how to use it correctly. It hurts you if your opponent is better at it than you. And it perhaps effects how a few gameplay elements work. No biggie, compare to almost any stage in the game. No matter what, you have to adapt.
This is merely raising the bar just a little bit, and ultimately not enough to make a difference. In fact, I'd say there is no "too far" as far as required skill goes. Why should there be? It forces the player to be good in order to be successful, and that is virtually the definition of competitive.
Either way, the game asks you to adapt to it.
Ground stage you can't really complain about. There's a temporary wall infinite but it's legal.
Yeah.
Electric and fire are not the same and shouldn't be compared. Anyways, the electric stage just really interferes with standard play.
Ooh, there's that nasty phrase again. "Standard Play". It just feels... nasty. There
is no "standard play". Get over that word.
A ground based character like Snake's only option is to center camp.
Or, if someone else has the middle, camp the platform on the left, or the ledge.
Shaya's point is mostly wrong as well. It doesn't give you more options because most of your options bring you back to the ledge. Basically he's saying that the best thing to do is plank (which not all characters can do, much less well).
First of all,
so what if the only option you have is planking? In PS1 fire, you have two options, go approach your opponent, and camp under the tree. It's like your option to either camp the ledge, camp the middle, or approach the person camping. The option to approach is there, it just
really sucks. If this is a problem, ban PS1 as well, and then ban Castle Siege.
It also interrupts edgeguarding which is a big part of this game.
Err... What? Again, Castle Siege. Ban Castle Siege. First of all, edgeguarding is a big part of brawl, yes. However, not every stage asks it or demands it-we happen to have most of the ones that stop demanding it, even shortly, banned for completely different reasons (walkoff camping). The fact that a stage allows you to circumvent
it does not mean that stage is bannable, it means that that element is less effective on that stage. Just like horizontal kill moves are less effective on FD, vertical kill moves are less effective on Jungle Japes, and ground-based stage control is less effective on brinstar. Should we ban every stage where an element we are used to by the "standard" conventions is less useful than normal? If so, then that's... um... again, every stage except the arbitrarily-chosen "best" stage.
Air. This is where I'm really upset at this. You did not at all address the problems of the air stage. You basically said that people think X character is broken and said "No. You're wrong."
Proof. I demand
PROOF! It's not that I haven't heard that anyone is broken on the stage. I haven't heard about anyone being broken on this stage that I find remotely realistic. I've heard MK-and I have found from my experience, on both ends, that he sucks at juggling against all but 2 characters (the 2 who are slower in the air than MK) on this part of the stage and is fairly slow at getting back to the ground. I've heard sonic and I know he's GOOD, but I really find it hard to believe that he is broken.
Especially when you recognize that it's up for literally at max 80-100 seconds per 8-minute match, making stalling tactics that rely on it virtually useless and requiring you to read your opponent very well.
The biggest trouble with the air stage is that it's ridiculously easy to juggle and rack up damage. Everyone falls ridiculously slow so it's really easy to follow your opponent and punish whatever they do if you're below them. They can't air dodge because you won't fall past your opponent and get *****. Anything else can be easily followed and punished once they got hit. Some characters are really good at punishing airdodges and here it makes it all the more worse. You don't have to be airborne to juggle the **** out of them btw. You can just be on the ground and punish their landing.
Or you can rely on your massive ability to move backwards/forwards on the stage without fear of edgeguarding, and get away from the **** that way. If you have a better air speed, it's easy. Otherwise it's still possible. Now, although they may be flawed, from my personal play experience, the ability to juggle on this part of the stage is
vastly overrated. I not only have no proof of juggling being too good on the stage, but I also have my personal experience, plus pretty good theory against it. I want someone to show this in high level play, or just show me personally.
As a whole stop thinking that we are just being babies because we don't wanna "get over it." We know that not all stages are the same. The standard 5 neutrals all have different pros and cons. The reason that those are considered the "neutral stages" is because they are the stages that were seen to have little or no gameplay change (stage control isn't included). The reason people see PS2 as banworthy is because the transformations significantly interrupt standard gameplay
Oh my god stop saying that. Also, "little to no gameplay change" is a fairly ridiculously arbitrary condition, especially in a game like brawl.
by having to go through all of these obstacles. You basically have to rely on taking advantage of the stage to play well here. That is not good for competitive play.
Tee hee. Seriously, this is so ridiculously biased and subjective, it's not even funny. In fact, as it's been shown in other threads, it's flat-out wrong.
A change of MU percentages are not a reason to ban a stage. I can't think of a character that heavily benefits from Wario Ware but that's still banned. Why? Because there are random factors in the game that interfere with competitive play. Although I wouldn't consider PS2's changes to be random, it is definitely game changing and messes people up.
And there goes your credibility. You are completely failing to differentiate between why stages are banned. You do this below as well.
Wario Ware being banned has nothing to do with matchup-skewing. In fact, it's literally one of the only stages in the game (the only other legitimate one being Mario Bros) that is not banned due, at least in part, to matchup skewing (don't say PTAD;
smart people ban that stage because of the lack of ledges, not the cars). It is banned due to excessive, unavoidable, arbitrary randomness, completely incomparable to PS2's "randomness".
LMAO! I really hope you aren't serious with this.
I am.
Although I know where you're coming from with this, it isn't a valid argument. Just because some people abuse strategies on certain stages doesn't make it legal. I'll give some examples of learning strategies that are reasons to ban any stage with permanent on stage deathlines such as Bridge, Green Hill Zone, etc.
1. I'm a Dedede, Pikachu or Yoshi . I'm just going to camp until my opponent approaches and then grab the opponent and kill them with a walkoff. Repeat 2 more times. (Note: there are very few characters that don't get chaingrabbed by at least one of these characters)
2. I'm Olimar. I'm gonna get you to about 40% then deathline camp and kill you with Bthrow (preferably blue pikmin). This also works with any other character with a good grab and Bthrow.
Those are strategies that would only work on those kinds of stages, but are reasons to ban it.
BZZZZZT! If you can't see the difference between blastzone camping/chaingrabbing off the side and the changes in PS2, let me help you out: (Excessive) Matchup Skewing. Eldin is not banned because it forces you to know the walkoff strategies. It is banned because, not only does it force you to
only know those strategies, reducing gameplay significantly, but it reduces the viable cast to those that are good at that strategy, essentially removing a whole lot of strategy from the game.
If you cannot tell the difference between these, then you don't belong in this discussion. It's pretty simple. The strategies on Eldin and GHZ have the issue of not only not extending gameplay, but reducing gameplay extremely. It's like with temple hyrule, where gameplay is reduced to the fastest character only. Seriously, I know from the rest of your post that you're better than this.
I also want to say that I know this from experience. I was at a tourney and Ninjalink was talking about stages I said that PS2 should be legal. He knows that actions speak louder than words so we went to PS2 and he was able to heavily take advantage of me on each transformation because of the stage itself.
Because you didn't know the stage. At all. If he is taking advantage of you, then:
-He is better than you
-He knows the stage better than you
-He's ****ing ninjalink (both of the above).
Correct me if I'm wrong here... But I sincerely doubt that you knew PS2 as well as he did if he destroyed you like that.
Hmm... borderline
Oh come on.