Pokemon Trainer vs. Olimar

[Steeler]

willing to play anyone here! ;]

'sam' 1160-9409-0275

 

[Excellence]

Are you a good PT looking to play a good Olimar for testing?

 

[asob4]

i have played a VERY good PT main(typh) irl and have managed to win every time

 

[RichBrown]

i have played a VERY good PT main(typh) irl and have managed to win every time

that's not what this bracket says but friendlies do mean a lot so ok.

 

[Zori]

that's not what this bracket says but friendlies do mean a lot so ok.

oooooooh **** this is getting interesting :>

 

[typh]

to be fair rich i was using ice climbers against him at avc2, i dropped ICs though so next time we meet up in brackets i will rep the PT haha

this whole conversation is irrelevant though, olimar ***** PT end of story

 

[Zori]

to be fair rich i was using ice climbers against him at avc2, i dropped ICs though so next time we meet up in brackets i will rep the PT haha

this whole conversation is irrelevant though, olimar ***** PT end of story

yeahyuzzzzzz typh is too good.

/argument

/thread

 

[typh]

also

Any latched Pikmin is removed and instantly killed by Rock Smash. Regardless of decay/fatigue.

and then what... lol. by the time rock smash is over olimar can pull every single pikmin back up and have 3 more on you. even using it offensively, if they shield it (which ANY competent player should be able to do) they're just gonna smash you away then pull. and anyway one grab from olimar is pretty much a 0-death combo if you're charizard haha.

 

[Retro Gaming]

That's a gross exageration, Typh. They die as Rock Smash is finishing, so I can see like Olimar getting them back, but not latching anymore. Regardless, you shouldn't be using Rock Smash for non-attacking purposes. Charizard's lagless SH Nair has the long hitbox that makes it difficult for any to latch in the first place.

And what exactly are you talking about when you say "0-death" grab combos by Olimar? I imagine you're either talking about Dthrow-> Fair, or U-throw -> Fair. How much farther can it go than that except for like Pikmin Pillar before Charizard can escape by jumping away? I don't think anything besides those first two attacks are guaranteed, and that's only at low percents.

Charizard is definately not at a large disadvantage, 's all I know.

 

[RichBrown]

Olimar has 6 pikmin. suppose he latches 2. the 2 die due to rocksmash. Olimar latches 1-2 more, then goes into a grab combo. That means he's still working with 4. Hell, he could even pluck those two in a fraction of a microsecond and be ok. yay.

Olimar can land Dthrow->fsmash->dthrow->fsmash>dthrow->whatever you can think of at low percents.

And in regards to flamethrower, I just throw my reds thru the flame if I have em, the yellows due to the high arc so they go over the fire, and I'll throw the purples over the fire and then work from there.

Heavy characters struggle against Olimar.

 

[typh]

hm i'll have to try nair more, i never use it haha.

and yeah, fire is pretty much a non-issue to rich now, it's useless to me now (as far as guarding against pikmin goes, its still great for shield pressure/approach )

 

[Steeler]

would you guys say olimar does better defensively or offensively against charizard?

same goes for ivysaur and squirtle, but i think offensive is way better against ivy and maybe against squirtle too.

 

[Kyas]

uh, you guys do understand that if anybody can pressure you guys from getting more Pikmin, you're screwed, and I can see Squirtle and Charizard doing that (Heck, Charizard can destroy the Pikmin afterwards too). But Ivysaur, because he has a tether recovery, it is just a matter of getting to the ledge first. I personally see Charizard as the Biggest threat to you guys and Ivysaur as the least problematic. You can get Pikmin in between razor leaf, try that with constant throws or flamethrower.

Have you actually played an accomplished Olimar? All of this is logical, but wrong.

Being an Olimainer, it's obvious I would understand perfectly well that if anyone could pressure me out of getting more pikmin, I would be screwed. However, any good Olimainer should be rediculously good at getting them back. I've played Hylian and he couldn't keep me from getting pikmin (yes, he beat me, but that's not the point).

As for Squirtle and Charizard, I'd have to say that neither of them pose the threat that Ivysaur can.

Ivysaur's razorleaf cuts through pikmin like a knife through fog, and has a range only slightly shorter than Olimar's, but with more power. This forces Olimar to approach, which he is not very good at. The only place where we excel against Ivysaur is grabs.

Charizard is very easy to spike and the only real danger from him is rock smash, and Squirtle can be annoying but easy to handle if you can counter his approaches, which Olimar can do. Besides, of the three, Ivysaur is the only one which does not have a pikmin color to counter its attacks (Charizard < Red Pikmin, Squirtle < Blue Pikmin).

 

[Retro Gaming]

I was kind of following until you got to this part about Pikmin colors. The only Pikmin that scores super-effective on the Pokemon Trainer is Red Pikmin, and it just so happens to be on Ivysaur. ={ Squirtle resists them, but he'll still get destroyed by any other color.

I don't know anyone that tries to use Flamethrower to keep the Pikmin off? It'll help if you're trying to approach Olimar at the same time maybe.

Fly off-sets a lot of spike attempts because of the super armor. Squirtle is much more susceptible.

 

[Steeler]

i think the flamethrower will neutralize any non red pikmin that aren't grabbing. but again, not completely sure. my wifi offer still stands!

 

[Kyas]

I was kind of following until you got to this part about Pikmin colors. The only Pikmin that scores super-effective on the Pokemon Trainer is Red Pikmin, and it just so happens to be on Ivysaur. ={ Squirtle resists them, but he'll still get destroyed by any other color.

I don't know anyone that tries to use Flamethrower to keep the Pikmin off? It'll help if you're trying to approach Olimar at the same time maybe.

Fly off-sets a lot of spike attempts because of the super armor. Squirtle is much more susceptible.

I was talking about how these colors out-prioritize attacks of their element. As for weaknesses, Charizard is weak to blues, Ivysaur to Reds, and Squirtle to Yellows.

As for flamethrower, the answer to it is simple; keep your distance until it runs out, throw a few red pikmin while your waiting (they don't care about fire), or just jump over the flames and bair > fsmash > whatever air combo you want.

Oh, and flamethrower neutralizes all but red pikmin, and I think that purples can just keep going if they have enough health.

 

[asob4]

these PT mains still seem to care so much about latched pikmin lulz

 

[Steeler]

squirtle doesn't have a weakness to yellow pikmin, his only weakness is grass, which only ivysaur can take advantage of.

not really sure on whether zard is weak to blue pikmin though...

honestly you aren't going to be able to keep your distance until flamethrower runs out, because unless olimar anticipates and rolls/jumps, zard should hit with ft. no charizard is just going to toss a ft out there and hope you walk into it. compared to bowser's flame breath, zard's ft has less startup and ending lag, but it's still enough time to give the opponent a chance at a free hit if zard misses and doesn't cancel the flame immediately. ft has really great range and usually it will be short hopped so you can't just jump to avoid it. and it's pretty easy to tell when olimar (or anyone) is about to break free of ft, so zard can just end it while the opponent is still in the flame to avoid a counterattack.

also, can't flamethrower cancel out something like olimar's fsmash? in my previous post, i wasn't referring to only pikmin throw.

 

[Kyas]

squirtle doesn't have a weakness to yellow pikmin, his only weakness is grass, which only ivysaur can take advantage of.

also, can't flamethrower cancel out something like olimar's fsmash? in my previous post, i wasn't referring to only pikmin throw.

I thought Squirtle was weak to electricity like any water pokemon '~'

Oh, and flamethrower can cancel out a non-red fsmash, but I'm talking about jumping behind Charizard, stunning him with bair, and then hitting him with fsmash as you land.

You really should listen to Typh, though... Oli ***** PKTainer. That's the most blunt way I can communicate it to you : /

 

[Steeler]

ahhh okay i gotcha. jump while he's still in ft lag and hit him with whatever you want. as long as zard can't end the flame and shield before you can bair, that sounds like a pretty good way of punishing zard.

i think all things considered, olimar v charizard is about 60-40 oli's favor. sound about right?

 

[Kyas]

That sounds right, yes. Sorry if I got impatient at the end thar. You seem like an agreeable guy ^_^

 

[Toby.]

That sounds right, yes. Sorry if I got impatient at the end thar. You seem like an agreeable guy ^_^

And that's what I like to see

This discussion has become a little too heated for my liking. It's beginning to detract from what is meant to be a chance for both boards to further their understanding of the match up. Let's not fall into the trap of simply swatting away the ideas of the other board. That won't help in developing a finer understanding of the match up. It will just make people frustrated.

Also, the fact that olimar is simply 'better' than charizard/PT as a whole is actually a minor issue here. Whilst the ultimate goal is to label each pokemon's chances under the neutral/advantage/disadvantage system, more important is the finer discussion about how each side will be approaching the battle. When new players come to read the match up thread in some distance future, Olimar mains won't learn anything by simply reading that olimar ***** charizard. Similarly, we won't learn anything if all we have is that Charizard is at a disadvantage.

So I have a couple questions which might help the process along a bit.

Firstly, the point was raised that us PT mains care a lot about the latched pikmin. Would you care to explain why you think that it isn't a big an issue as we think? Should we be focussing on other things during the match? If so, what?

Does the latching of pikmin play a large part in the damage dealing aspect of your game, or is it more focussed on pressuring your opponent into Olimar's specific zones of control?

Secondly, what situations are particularly awkward for Olimar? Are there any weak spots on the olimar defensive or offense, such as a spot where none of your attacks cover? If so, how do you plan to counter these gaps?

Similarly, what situations are you going to be trying to manouvre yourselves into? Squirtle is going to be extremely mobile and will be attempting to weave past your barrage; how will you maintain the momentum in the match? Is there a particular area (ie next to the ledge, etc) where you feel most comfortable with his antics?

I'd like to know the same thing for the other pokemon as well.

I don't mind if you answer all of these questions, or none of them. I'd just like the discussion to remain constructive.

Oh and the vast majority of posts here have been along these lines anyway. By no means am I saying that the discussion hasn't been constructive until now

Let's just keep the greater good in mind as we struggle to validate our respective mains

Thanks guys.

 

[Snail]

So I have a couple questions which might help the process along a bit.

Firstly, the point was raised that us PT mains care a lot about the latched pikmin. Would you care to explain why you think that it isn't a big an issue as we think? Should we be focussing on other things during the match? If so, what?

Many characters have moves that will easily shake off Pikmin. Charizard, for example, has Rock Smash. If a white is latched onto you, you should shake it off. Any other pikmin, as long as it's a single pikmin, shouldn't be your first priority. Olimar often uses the openings created by moves used to shake pikmin off to approach, so don't let your guard down because a living carrot is smacking you.

Does the latching of pikmin play a large part in the damage dealing aspect of your game, or is it more focussed on pressuring your opponent into Olimar's specific zones of control?

Latching pikmin is used for both damage and control - Damage mostly at lower percentages, seeing how pikmin become less effective after a while because of stale moves and because they simply do less damage on a high % opponent. After about 70%, Pikmin (except whites, they'll still be used for damage) will be latched for control and stressing the opponent, baiting them into using a move to shake them off and creating an opening for the killing grab or Usmash.

Secondly, what situations are particularly awkward for Olimar? Are there any weak spots on the olimar defensive or offense, such as a spot where none of your attacks cover? If so, how do you plan to counter these gaps?

Olimar's glaring weakness is his recovery. Although we get lots of practice getting back to the stage, his recovery will simply never be good. The hardest angle for Olimar to counter is about 45 degrees diagonally in front of him. It can be UpB'd or countered with a shorthopped fair or nair, but you'll have to be quick. Ground approaches will be shieldgrabbed 90% of the time, so don't bother.

Similarly, what situations are you going to be trying to manouvre yourselves into? Squirtle is going to be extremely mobile and will be attempting to weave past your barrage; how will you maintain the momentum in the match? Is there a particular area (ie next to the ledge, etc) where you feel most comfortable with his antics?

I personally try to stay in the center of the stage as much as I possibly can, to eliminate Olimar's recovery weakness as much as possible. Olimar needs space to work and he does best at medium range where his pivot grabs hit and forward and down smashes can hit the opponent. Being directly above Olimar is a bad idea because of his powerful upsmash.

The least comfortable position for Olimar is off the stage, obviously. Our first priority will always be grabbing the ledge. Therefore, if you somehow manage to hit Olimar off the stage, anything Olimar does will either be a defensive manoeuver (Whistle cancel, airdodge) or an attack to get you out of his way to the ledge. No KO moves (except if you're stupid enough to set yourself up for a spike), no grabs.

As for mobility, I personally love retreating reverse boost grabs because of their incredible range, combo starting potential and it simply gets the opponent away from you, back to medium range right where we want them to be. A great spacing tool Olimar likes to use is SHFair, move backwards in the air and Fsmash. This forces the opponent to retreat or shield, which either moves you away or sets you up for a grab.

I'd like to know the same thing for the other pokemon as well.

I don't mind if you answer all of these questions, or none of them. I'd just like the discussion to remain constructive.

Oh and the vast majority of posts here have been along these lines anyway. By no means am I saying that the discussion hasn't been constructive until now

Let's just keep the greater good in mind as we struggle to validate our respective mains

Thanks guys.

I agree, no hard feelings :D Let us continue our discussion!

 

[Excellence]

ahhh okay i gotcha. jump while he's still in ft lag and hit him with whatever you want. as long as zard can't end the flame and shield before you can bair, that sounds like a pretty good way of punishing zard.

i think all things considered, olimar v charizard is about 60-40 oli's favor. sound about right?

No, I'd say 70-30 in Olimar's favor.

Anyway, are you guys SURE Pikmin colors can produce 'super-effective' damage on Pokemon Trainer? I've never noticed it, but I don't think it's true. It seems like a direct attack on Pokemon Trainer, and I quite sure that wouldn't happen. Nentendo's done some pretty stupid things before, but I don't think this is one of them.

 

[XienZo]

PT's pokemon take more knockback, but same damage, from attacks that are super effective, as in fire for ivysaur, grass for squirtle, and water for charizard. However, only Olimar's red pikmin count, as the blue does not count as water attacks. Also, not very effective moves deal less knockback. And this only involves the fire-water-grass, not electric or ice or poison.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Fire property attacks have increased knockback on Ivysaur, decreased on Squirtle.

Water property attacks (Not FLUDD, Water Gun) Have increased knockback on Charizard, decreased on Ivysaur.

Grass property attacks have increased knockback on Squirtle, decreased on Charizard.

For the record, no character besides Pokemon Trainer has Grass or Water attacks, while many other characters have fire property (Snake, Captain Falcon, etc.) attacks.

All other elements that would affect a Pokemon in the actual games is not counted as such, and the Pokemon do no resist their own element.

Blue Pikmin have no property in their attacks if I am not mistaken. White Pikmin have a poison property only when latched or used for a grab attack. Purple have none. Olimar's only special property'd attacks (Discounting the few white attacks above) are electrical and fire.

Anyway, 70-30 for Charizard is too far for Olimar. I'm pretty certain that if Olimar misses a Smash, then Charizard can get a grab in himself. In Typh's video, there's a part where he regrabs Chris two or three times with Fthrow/Bthrow. No, it's not guaranteed. However, Charizard plays pretty funny with his grabs in this way. If I'm not mistaken then Charizard has two Bthrows from 0% on Olimar, regardless of DI. Anything after that is atributed to poor DI.

Both of those throws are important in getting his opponent off-stage, and Charizard is likely going to try to take every opening he can get. Again, Charizard can handle Olimar well enough off-stage, regardless of the whistle.

Someone said something about jumping over Flamethrower and getting a Bair in. Charizard will almost always short-hop Flamethrower if it's an approach. This helps make sure that the only way to avoid it is to shield it or to move away from Charizard. Flamethrower will end just before Olimar stops getting hit by the flames, which will be with a slightly/moderately deteriorated flame only, and likely too far to do anything back to Charizard. The only thing is you can't spam Flamethrower since it takes a little bit to get it full again, and it becomes way too predictable.

 

[Kyas]

I have alot of respect for you PKTrainer mains. Having to master and enjoy three different characters is something I can't say I'd be up for, and I'm sure it requires alot of devotion to the character. Anyway, more power to ya guys

 

[DanGR]

Here's my opinion on the numbers:

Olimar v...
Charizard: 65/35
Ivysaur: 60/40
Squirtle: 40/60

Overall: hmmm.... how would you calculate that?

 

[Excellence]

Here's my opinion on the numbers:

Olimar v...
Charizard: 65/35
Ivysaur: 60/40
Squirtle: 40/60

Overall: hmmm.... how would you calculate that?

Maybe average the numbers out? 55/45

 

[asob4]

i think it would average out to 60/40

 

[Steeler]

here's the thing about averaging those numbers:

let's say that in this case, charizard is the worst matchup. eh i personally think both ivy and zard are near equals when it comes to olimar, but whatever. zard is the worst matchup. when you average those numbers, you are basically saying that's the 'score' if pt just uses one pokemon per stock. but this ISN'T how most pts (should) play. in this example, the pt can easily use squirtle for the first stock, lose it and switch to ivysaur for the next stock and switch to zard BEFORE ivy loses the second stock. there are multiple benefits to this switch:

1. squirtle comes out to start the next stock, instead of charizard.

2. on that same note, if the match comes down to a 1-1 stock count, squirtle can switch to ivysaur to get the KO, in case of fatigue or something. this is in contrast to zard switching to squirtle at high percentage.

3. charizard's negative impact on the matchup is minimalized because you are maximizing how long the other more effective pokemon are out.

4. charizard does way better at high percent anyway, because that stock will last longer due to his heavy weight and the fact that olimar cannot just combo the hell out of a charizard at 80+%

using dangr's numbers as the example, i think it'd be more around 50/50 even. a charizard at 0% MIGHT be 65/35, but a charizard with at least 80% is more like 60/40 or 55/45.

i still don't understand what olimar doesn't like about squirtle lol. is olimar too slow to keep up with squirtle? if so then yeah, i can understand 60/40 squirtle. is shieldgrabbing effective against squirtle? as long as he mixes it up and such, maybe not. O:

also water gun can semi neutralize olimar's floatiness and force him to use pikmin chain (when olimar recovers from above) and naturally a water gun will really screw up an olimar from below. also water gun can set squirtle up for a quick fair or something.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I agre with Steeler on the symbiotic effect between Ivysaur and Charizard in this match-up. Once you start reaching the 80% bench-mark, you don't want Ivysaur staying out much longer, because he's already approaching being killed by Red Pikmin. On the other hand, Charizard is past this initial "Being combo'd" percentage and is thus much more useful. Especially if he's working off-of percentages built up by Ivysaur, Charizard is going to use his un-decayed moves to get Olimar off-the stage and gimp him.

Oh, and Squirtle should really try to Dair Olimar for edge-guarding purposes. It doesn't let him use the Whistle Armour, like anything else Squirtle uses would. =(

 

[asob4]

you would think but when he's at ~80% a down throw will put him high in the air setting up for up airs > up b and then he would be over 100%. then we can camp to get some more damage, then run in with an up smash for the kill.

it's not hard to avoid his moves :/

*for zard*

 

[Retro Gaming]

I still think Charizard can jump.

His weight is comparable to Link, he's just phat.

 

[asob4]

if it's yellow or red then zard isn't going anywhere :]

 

[Steeler]

i think he meant charizard can jump between the dthrow and uair ;D

 

[asob4]

do you know how much range his up air has?
also zard is too fat to have a real jump
we could always just use our double jump if we have to

 

[Steeler]

charizard is not fat

he's...bulky.

di away and airdodge maybe? D:

anyway, zard and ivy can both space themselves well enough that throws don't become a HUGE problem, and squirtle is really agile and quick, so grabbing him isn't a piece of cake either. but yeah, if you do get that grab...

does olimar get the majority of his kills off the top?

 

[asob4]

he can kill in all directions.
most are off the top, we will spike with pleasure though >:]

 

[Steeler]

okay well what are a few good stage counterpicks against oli? i know about frigate orpheon since part of it has no ledge...